Topic: Sony 3000ES REVIEW

[Nick's Picks]

just posted:  http://www.nickspicks.com/

comments?

There will be more material pending its return from the Oades (busted binding post)

[nickgregory]

thanks for posting this Nick...I think I need to take a look at the 2000ES now before I upgrade my receiver....

[dnsacks]

fluffer

Glad you like

[Nick's Picks]

fluffer

Glad you like

fluffer?

what can I say.  I was really that impressed by it.

[dnsacks]

Nick:

Psyched that you are and real relieved that you share my enthusiasm for its sound.  Enjoy!

(the fluffer comment was due to my feeling that I was fluffing the hell out of it)

[Tim]

thanks Nick, I really appreciate you taking the time to do these hi-fi reviews...

Darrin - did you buy from Doug too?

[dnsacks]

Yep -- actually dealt with Jim, but same deal -- do a froogle.com search and I'm sure the oades will come in @ the same price.  They sent it to me double boxed, bulletproof packaging.

d

[Tim]

going to have to sell the NAD first but I think this box might be just what I'm looking for.

[FiKe]

I just got one of these my self in fact it arrives Fri the 27th ,Im hoping it will take me that much closer to injecting Garica directly into my BRAIN.

[pjl100001]

At the moment I'm torn between the harman kardon avr 230 and the strda2000... has anyone heard both of these?  any pros and cons of either model would be very helpful.

[Mojowill]

Nick I just spent some time on your page, big old T for that.  cool page!
When's the review for the Vinnie mod Toshiba?

[Nick's Picks]

i cant really review the vinnie mod Toshiba.
because....
since i've had it modified, i've got an entirely new stereo behind it so I dont know whats what for "new sound" out of it.
besides, i'm only using it as a transport, and the mods were only to the chasis (dampening) and the power supply.

it sounds damn nice to me, but i'm comparring it to the memory of my last "known good' transport.

[Todd R]

The kind fedex man just dropped off my new 3000es, courtesty of the Oade Bros.      Looks like I'll be spending a nice evening of hooking up wires.   

[dnsacks]

Have fun

-- the onscreen setup of speaker size/type/location is key (imho) -- get that tape measure ready.

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

Have fun

-- the onscreen setup of speaker size/type/location is key (imho) -- get that tape measure ready.

When you do this, how big is the sweet spot?  If you are using dimensions measured to the inch, it seems like that would force you into a small area where sound is best.  Just wondering.

[dnsacks]

This unit's sweet spot is HUGE -- the dimensions are for optimizing the dsp for surround sound decoding and playback.   I don't believe that these settings have any effect on unprocessed 2 channel playback

I know the surround effects sound good well outside of the defined "sweet spot" but, playing one of the 5.1 encoded dead show matrixs that the american digital folks have put together (7.2.88 for example) and sitting in the "sweet spot" is a unique experience.

[heath]

so i am considering picking one of these units up.  Anyone have suggestions on speakers to go along with it?  I would like to set up a full surround listening environment without breaking the budget, but also want to have the best possible 2 channel listening capability as well, so I guess the key question is...what should I be using as my mains (L/R) and then what surround speakers would you recommend?  I have a polk center channel, but if there is a better option that better compliments the other speakers or I need to buy some sort of package, i can always sell it.  Thanks for helping a relative newbie to home playback out...

H

[Tim]

yeah Heath!

give a budget for 2 channel stuff and you'll get tons of responses...

[heath]

yeah Heath!

give a budget for 2 channel stuff and you'll get tons of responses...

as far as my mains, I'd like to keep them under $1000.  But I'm open to suggestions....

H

[scervin]

Heath,
   
If you plan on multi-channel in the future you will want to have a timbre matched (voiced the same as the mains) center for a seamless fron stage.  My rec would be to go with the same company and stick to the same line as long as it has the same drivers.  This is important for MC & HT.  So either buy Polks or get rid of the center when you can afford to upgrade it. 

[Nick's Picks]

IMO....
make sure you get two main speakers that do not require a sub.
the Sony will sound much better in straight 2ch mode than setting it up as a 2.1 system (or so some other users say).

It makes sence to me as you can sellect a "2.0" speaker array and straight 2ch mode, and the 2ch mode sounds better (as I have shown myself).  any choice made regarding speaker setup in the Sony will route the signal through all the surround DSP crap...not optimal for a straight 2ch setup.  Selecting the 2ch button will bypass all the surround DSP.

[Todd R]

I guess I'm the "some other users".   

I just got my 3000es yesterday.  It won't pass subwoofer info to the sub out when run in 2 channel mode.  Only way to do it is to use the DSP functions and have the receiver generate a subwoofer signal.  I haven't tried it, but it doesn't sound the best to me.  You can run it in 2 channel mode and it still has the front L-R Preamplifier outs working.  So for 2-channel, you can set it up the same way I always have with my 2.1 channel playback system:  L-R speaker outs for the L-R speakers (duh) and use the preamp outputs to go to the preamp input of your powered sub.

Only trouble with this is the LFE effects of a 5.1/7.1 movie soundtrack are not sent to the front L-R preamp outs on the 3000es/5000es, so you'll get no low frequency info sent to your sub.     So, for movies, you'll need to hook up the sub to the subwoofer output on the receiver, not the preamp out RCA outs. 

Meaning, ultimately, there is no one way to wire up the 3000es/5000es for both 2.1 channel music and 5.1/7.1 channel HT.  I'm going to make RCA input/output switch box so instead of pulling the wires each time I want to listen to different things with the 3000es I'll just need to flip a switch on an external switching router.

Bottom line, the 3000es/5000es is better used with no subwoofer on music (or that it is used only for 2.1 channel or 5.1/7.1 channel, but not both).

[Tim]

well I'm only 2.1 so that shouldn't cause me problems. Thanks Todd, I was getting a little nervous!

[Tim]

so if I want to run exclusively in 2.1 I'm alright?

also, does any have a price from the oade's on the 2000es? I know the 3000 is $695 from the Oade's... trying to see if the extra 30wpc  is worth it.

[Govt Mule]

I think I paid about $540 for my 2000 from oade. You can get one for about 40 cheaper but if the dealer is not authorised the warenty may  not be honored.

I love it. 

I an using polks now but the Neat Mystique's are on the way. I plan on get the neat center and using the petite's as rears in the near future.

[heath]

i got hooked up with a flawless floor model from jim oade...saved me a shitload.  ask if he's got one laying around....

H

[Mojowill]

all right heath! T for new toys

[Tim]

i got hooked up with a flawless floor model from jim oade...saved me a shitload.  ask if he's got one laying around....

H

will do Heath, thanks for the tip

[Jason B]

I paid right at $1000 for my 5000ES.

[Jason B]

Multi-channel SACD's and DVD-A's with this reciever sound incredible. The LCD remote is a huge plus too as my TV and 9000ES DVD/2-channel SACD player are Sony as well.

[nickgregory]

alright, I just got my 3000ES today...and after a few hours of listening, I am completely hooked.  I am currently running my Samsung DTV receiver and my Sony DVD/SACD player into the 3000ES through the coax inputs.  Due to the fact that SACD does not feed thorugh the digi input (as I am sure everyone knows) I have that run analog into the inputs on the 3000ES.  My speakers are an old pair of JSE Corporation (the same guy who runs Joseph Audio was the owner of JSE before it went under), and I have to say, the addition of this receiver has completely opened them up. 

Having gone through DVDs (DMB in Central Park, PJ in MSG and Live Aid), a bunch of studio releases and my tapes, I can honestly say I am hearing things I had not heard before.  The sound is very musical...not sure how else to describe it, other than to say I have heard some other playback systems at HiFi stores that sounded almost harsh to my ears...but this receiver sounds smooth....especially on my tapes.  They have a much more "live" feel to them...like it is happening right in front of you again so to speak...the big soundstage has alot to do with this...

I will agree with all those that stated the volume control blows...it absolutely does....seems it take a full clockwise motion to get any dramatic increase/decrease.  The unit itself is also not plug and play...in that it takes some time going through the manuals and trial and error, but that is probably a result of my not having a system built in the past 15 years...and not knowing what to expect.  I am guessing, based on my short time playing with it, it will become inherent...

This will definitely require more listening, but in my short time listening so far, this definitely meets my need for 2 channel...next test...Star Wars DVD...assuming it meetings my HT expectations (and I am guessing it will), I will be ecstatic!

Big +Ts to Darin, Todd and Nick for the reviews and input and Jason for letting me hear your 5000!

[dnsacks]

wait 'till it burns in

[Jason B]

This will definitely require more listening, but in my short time listening so far, this definitely meets my need for 2 channel...next test...Star Wars DVD...assuming it meetings my HT expectations (and I am guessing it will), I will be ecstatic!

Nick, come over and let's watch a few chapters of Return Of The King. It will blow you away! Now you need to buy my JBL sub! 

[nickgregory]

will definitely have to check that out, now that I got the system hooked up.

As for the sub...I literally have no room left...have to get a bigger house before I get a sub

[Mojowill]

I ordered one yesterday. one of my gifts to myself for being good this year.

[Mojowill]

3000ES arrived today.  got no time to set it up or give it a test run   Though it looks really sweet   I don't understand the second remote option yet though  will mess with this beast on the 12th

Any tips or hints are greatly appreciated

[nickgregory]

second remote is for running it in two different zones...was not a requirement for me, so I didnt fool with it...still sitting in the box...the black remote that is.  The unit definitely isnt user friendly on the surface, but get it hooked up and follow the manual to play with the settings, and you will get used to it quickly.  The more I listen to it, the more I like it

[Nick's Picks]

the only part of these recievers setup that has been eluding me isthe D.C. phase linearization setting under the advanced options.

Doug tells me it affects the bass.
I just can't hear much ...if any...difference between the settings.  I think I prefer it set to off.

[Nick in Edinboro]

the only part of these recievers setup that has been eluding me isthe D.C. phase linearization setting under the advanced options.

Jeesh, this thing is sounding more complicated than a computer   Is that setting right next to the flux capacitor?

[Nick's Picks]

yea, it just might be.


other than that, its pretty basic.
- just push the "2ch mode" button", and if you want to, shut off the EQ (tone controlls) to eliminate all DSP.  Set the front speakers up as big/small whatever ...and thats about that.

[Daryan]

Has anyone compared the sony line with all these gizmo's to the Panny lines.  I haven't read a lot on the internet about people who have heard both.  Just curious.

I wonder about mods to this line though I haven't seen any to date!

[Nick's Picks]

most people outside of this list and the oade forum are big fans of the pannys...though I do not know how people are running them.
the MODs that I hear about the most for these are done by Boulder Cable.
try this forum:
www.audiocircles.com

lots of fun on this board.  good group.

I"m always fluffing the Sony's here.  Most people who have heard both and comment on them prefer the Panisonics over the Sonys, but then again, they are not running direct PCM, and I have no idea what kind of listening they are doing (multi-chan ..etc).

I've heard the Panny...it does sound remarkable for the money.   They are much cheaper than these Sony ES lines, but then again..they do not possess that DAC magic that the Sonys do.  They just have a good amp section going for them....which, for the record...my 3000ES does not.  Wimpy, imo.  I'm still ratteled by the 50wpc Manley Stingray that I had...and its monsterously juicy/fat bottem end that was 10x richer than my Sony was.  Unfortunately, it needed to be 100w to satisfy my volume desires, so out the door it went.
My 3000es does not quite meet my requirements either, and I plan to put an amp under it eventualy.  I'm just looking for the right one. 

[Daryan]

I hang out at audiocircles quite a bit Nick, and rather enjoy reading your posts as well about the sony line.  The panny's get fluffed a ton, and I think that is for good reason.  They are the most detailed sounding amp I have heard, and that isn't many.  I run everything I have digitally, which is where these things sing.  My XR-45 which I finally found after looking extensively over a two month period is at Bolder Cable with Wayne as I write.  He is doing extensive mods to the power supply, and the digital amp section.  I asked him to leave the analog stuff alone for the most part, as I simply just do not use it.  The only time I am using it is for the xbox, even the satellite is digital.  He is also installing bybee's on the digital inputs, as well as the speaker mains, and I am also getting bybee'd nitro speaker jumpers as that is what Wayne reccomended I do.  Next on the list is bybee's nitro speaker wire1

D

[scervin]

Ya'll are seriously down with the snake oil!  Modding this and that..... while it may be fun, I'd bet you could get a higher end stock unit of xxx brand that would perform just as good.  More attention shold be paid to the room!  If you think $1k in mods to your gear just think what that money could do to your room.  Improving your room response and RT60 would be the first place I would start before modding all this gear.  If anyone is nearby I'd like to sit down and do a DBT of these units. I'd say save the cash any buy some high end seperates.

 I fully enjoy reading all the fluff and I'm thinking of picking up one of these units for my living room system. What speakres are we running with these units?  Do they have problems with different speaker loads? 

[Tim]

unfortunatley most of us do not have a dedicated room for hi-fi. room treatmenst are great but simply not practical in most instances.

[Daryan]

I rent my condo, and of course it is way too small for a dedicated room.  I have all of this in my living room at the moment.  I live alone though, so I don't have to worry about the astethic issues that go along with wives etc.  I have always read in the various forums that the best bang for the buck if modding.  After taking a look at what Wayne does, I would love to give it a try myself.  Scott, would you do any acoustic treatment to a rented condo at curiosity?  I have always been under the impression that that type of stuff is permanent.  Any good links to read about room treatment while snowed in at work for the day?

[MattD]

Room lenses and bass traps can be non-permanent. The threads at www.audioasylum.com should be a good resource, and you might be able to get someone to make suggestions for your particular room and layout.

[scervin]

I rent my condo, and of course it is way too small for a dedicated room.  I have all of this in my living room at the moment.  I live alone though, so I don't have to worry about the astethic issues that go along with wives etc.  I have always read in the various forums that the best bang for the buck if modding.  After taking a look at what Wayne does, I would love to give it a try myself.  Scott, would you do any acoustic treatment to a rented condo at curiosity?  I have always been under the impression that that type of stuff is permanent.  Any good links to read about room treatment while snowed in at work for the day?

If you can hang pics in your place you can just as easily hang treatments.  You can even build bass traps that stand in the corner if you wish.  I ask again, has there been any DBT of the modded units vs. the stock unit and comparable products?

SC

[Tim]

Room lenses and bass traps can be non-permanent. The threads at www.audioasylum.com should be a good resource, and you might be able to get someone to make suggestions for your particular room and layout.

I'm well aware that they can be non-permanent that doesn't make them any more practical though. Again, if you don't have a dedicated room I just don't see room treatments as being all that practical just my opinion. Of course my room is actually pretty decent sounding so I'm lucky there...

[scervin]

Room lenses and bass traps can be non-permanent. The threads at www.audioasylum.com should be a good resource, and you might be able to get someone to make suggestions for your particular room and layout.

I'm well aware that they can be non-permanent that doesn't make them any more practical though. Again, if you don't have a dedicated room I just don't see room treatments as being all that practical just my opinion. Of course my room is actually pretty decent sounding so I'm lucky there...

You can cover them with nice fabric to add to the look of the room.  My "dedicated" room is our family room.  I was fortunate the wife didn't have a problem with the "wall art".
SC

[Daryan]

Scoptt, thanks for the help.  I will take a look at all of this this evening.  As for the debates..indeed, there is quite a bit of it at audiocirccle.com.  Take a look in the bolder cable forum.

Daryan

[scervin]

Scoptt, thanks for the help.  I will take a look at all of this this evening.  As for the debates..indeed, there is quite a bit of it at audiocirccle.com.  Take a look in the bolder cable forum.

Daryan

I'll gladly host a GTG to compare sources and receivers if anybody wants to meet in MI.  We can get my wife involved to help with the DBT (double blind test).  I'd really like to hear the difference in stock and modified units as well as this Bybee device!  $200 for this little thing...hmmmm  I'll ask a buddy what he thinks of it as they may have used it when comparing Dodson Audio DAC's.  I think these Bybees were used on some Aerial 7B's

As far as that forum goes it is pretty much a sales forum for Bolder as any sponsored forum should be.  I didn't find much outside of that forum. 

[Daryan]

I'll post some links to some more reviews elsewhere when I get home, they are in my favorites.  I am all about the gathering and a road trip...we should do it when there is a show. 

[Daryan]

I'm a little bored, too much snow

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/amp/messages/37702.html

This one is a lot less extensive as far as the modding, but the results are there still:

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=amp&n=37721&highlight=stillWater&r=&session=

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=amp&m=35300

[Daryan]

Cool link on bybee's for Scott

http://www.referenceaudiomods.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=RAM&Category_Code=BYBEE

[Mojowill]

Well I am getting to know this beast of a complicated reciever and I have my ups and downs with it.  Ups+ it sounds fucking great in 2 channel.  Downs is I liked having my sub shake the house on Phil bombs. now I can't use it to much for 2 channel playback Because a lot of the time  when I try the 2.1 set up so it will create a LFE signal it also send harsh static to my rear speaker.  I am still messing with and learning about this baby, so if I ever discover anything that is fresh an important, I'll post it. 
It sounds fanfuckingtastic with Paradigms monitor 9.3's

[nickgregory]

2 channel, it is incredible....the DEEP soundstage that you get with this unit is incredible...I love it...

unfortunately mine is going back to Oade tomorrow to get it replaced since I get static on the multi channel inputs...that being said, Oade is being absolutely fantastic in being accomodating in helping me get this unit replaced (unlike sony who recommended that I take it to an authorized service center, who has a 3 week backlog before they can even look at it ) ....but dont let that sway you...this unit is smoking to me for the 2 channel, DVD-A, SACD and HT....I dont use it for the video stuff...and cant comment, but have been blown away otherwise!

[Mojowill]

so does this mean that mine is faulty if it is sending out static to the rear channels while I am just trying to run 2.1?

[nickgregory]

so does this mean that mine is faulty if it is sending out static to the rear channels while I am just trying to run 2.1?

have not run it like that...the problem I have, is when I go to the multichannel inputs, either 1 or 2, with nothing plugged into them...I get static.....if I plug something into them the static remains...

[Mojowill]

OK I think I understand what you talking about you are using the multi channel hook ups on the back instead of just a digitl cable(coax or Optical)  right?

[nickgregory]

OK I think I understand what you talking about you are using the multi channel hook ups on the back instead of just a digitl cable(coax or Optical) right?

yeah, for cases where the player would not feed a digital signal... (SACD or consumer DVD-a), the analog inputs is what I was using...and the problem...the digital fed signal worked flawlessly

[Jason B]

so does this mean that mine is faulty if it is sending out static to the rear channels while I am just trying to run 2.1?

I would say that there is something wrong with your unit. Though I don't normally run the sub for 2-channel music, I have several times with no static from the rears or surrounds. I own a 5000ES.

[Mojowill]

It doesn't do it all the time only once in a while, I am still warming this thing up as i have only been home since wed to play it.

[Daryan]

You may need some burn in.  I find with the several digital receivers I have used, they really don't open up all the way for about a month.

[zhianosatch]

your opinion can go up in flames, daryan. screw you.

[BJ]

your opinion can go up in flames, daryan. screw you.

i dont know what happened, and i really dont care...but this is just plain immature and really has no place...

it added NOTHING to the thread, nothing at all, if you have a problem with him, deal with it, but most people don't care to read about it, esp. in this format.

[Nick Culbreth]

your opinion can go up in flames, daryan. screw you.

i dont know what happened, and i really dont care...but this is just plain immature and really has no place...

it added NOTHING to the thread, nothing at all, if you have a problem with him, deal with it, but most people don't care to read about it, esp. in this format.

Normally I'd agree but Daryan deserves everything he gets.

[BJ]

Normally I'd agree but Daryan deserves everything he gets.

don't know him or the situation, and not arguing that point at all.

[zhianosatch]

Normally I'd agree but Daryan deserves everything he gets.

don't know him or the situation, and not arguing that point at all.

i respectfully disagree. i think you are arguing that point. normally i'd agree with you, but daryan is such a malignant schmuck that he deserves it in all contexts on taperssection.com. in real life, i don't know him, and i don't know personally if he deserves retaliatory shitbaggery...
but on the internet? he's got it coming. the cheating, lying son of a bitch is weaseling his sorry ass back in yet again. i vow to keep him in check as much as i possibly can. hence the sidetrack, razor.
back to your regularly scheduled reviewing!

[Tim]

your opinion can go up in flames, daryan. screw you.

i dont know what happened, and i really dont care...but this is just plain immature and really has no place...

it added NOTHING to the thread, nothing at all, if you have a problem with him, deal with it, but most people don't care to read about it, esp. in this format.

Normally I'd agree but Daryan deserves everything he gets.

what Nick said....

if you really don't know who Daryan is google his name and see what comes up in the various newsgroups, then search his name in DAT-Heads, and finally search his name here...

[Mojowill]

cough: Sony 3000ES, cough

I figured out my 2.1 problem and I had to readjust my Subs levels and phase and it now is thumping back up to it's old standards.  Loving this amp

[jpschust]

btw more and more we are finding that burn in has less of an effect than thought.  yes it has some effect, however essentially your ears have more effect as you grow more accustomed to the sound of the unit in your space.

[Mojowill]

All right now I am having difficulty getting surround sound to come from the back speakers.  I test toned it and they get signal, but during movies I know have sound coming from the speakers there is nothing also while I was test toning one of the speakers was extremely staticky so i am going to re wire that one, Any other help.  This is in 5.1 surround for movies.
Thanks

[silentmark]

Been reading about the ES series and was wondering if this is a "bright" receiver ?

[Nick's Picks]

I've heard it described that way.
I think it depends greatly on your speakers....as well as your outlook on what you hear.
one mans bright may be another mans detail.

With my speakers...which are not bright...but big , bassy and just meaty sounding...the Sony comes through as detailed to a point ofrazor sharp.  a "honed" soune, if you will.

then again, knowing what my speakers sound like with other amps, I think my 3000es sounds lean.  A tad shy in the bottom end.  It can still dig down there when it needs to, but there is no upper to mid bass richness to it at all.
A tube amp would have all of that. 

[dnsacks]

Nick:

I still believe that tweaking the phase shift settings on your 3000es could make a huge difference in its warmth.   My understanding is that this setting causes the 3000es to mimic the LF characteristics of a valve (tube) amp and will provide degrees of the tube roundness/warmth you're finding lacking.

[scervin]

phase shift???  How does this work?

SC

[Nick's Picks]

phase shift???  How does this work?

SC

been trying to figure this out for a while now.
I must be deaf to this, as I can't hear anything between the settings.  nor has anyone else i've sat down and had listen and try to distinguish.

[dnsacks]

my vague recollection of this from an older post by doug oade (or was it the sony pdf re the technology used ??)  was that tube equipment (and traditional analog transister gear) shift the phase of LF signals and that this is a part of what causes the warmer sound one hears on such gear.  The phase shift (if I recall) doesn't occur on the digital amp and was added as a dsp effect by sony to compensate (again, or so I recall)

Nick -- (assuming my recollection above is even close to the mark) perhaps because the phase shift is implemented as DSP it is bypassed when run in "pure" 2 channel mode -- have you tried running your 3000es in 2.1 mode (i.e. allowed dsp to function) when a/b'ing the effect of the phase shift? If not, perhaps that's why you can't hear it?

Given Doug's repeated urgings on this issue, this sounds quite ripe for some follow-up/clarification on Doug's end

[Nick in Edinboro]

Great info Darrin, keep us posted!

[Nick's Picks]

one thing i've noticed...when things are disabled in the menu system, they ar grayed out.  not so w/my current settings and this DC phase issue.  its active...so it must be working.  I've yet to get a good answer on Dougs forum, and i've asked this more than twice.