Topic: Listening party results....

[Nick's Picks]

gear used:
Dennon 2200 UDP
Philips 963sa

benchmark DAC-1
grace 901
Monarchy Audio DIP 4896 Upsampler

BAT VK-60
Sony STR-DA3000ES

the orange RS S/PDIF coax cables (a pair)
Apoggee wide eye coax
RS toslink
LEEGEDDY custom headpone>RCA IC
Gregg Straley licorace IC w/bullet plugs
Bouler Cable M-80 (cryo)w/bullet plugs
Gregg Straley digital amp series spaker cable (monster spade>banana converters)

Grado R2 headphones
Von Schweikert VR4 gen I loudspeakers

vibrapod cones

Room: 17'w x 23'deep x 7' ceiling.  speakers against the 17' wall, spaced 11'.  perfect equalateral triangle with listening position.  VR4s pulled 6' out into the room.  "custom" acoustic treatments (getto, but quite effective).

Material:  tons of live phish, GD, all sorts of local boston stuff, recent MULE , WSP....just about everything.
Studio stuff: Winwood "about time" , dylan "time out of mind", new JMP disc, maybe more.

We mostly used the Dennon as the transport.  Toslink out from there to the Sony.  A coax splitter on its coax output ran seperate digital feeds to the DAC1 and 901.  Analog output from here went into the Sony.
OR
We would have the custom RCA>1/4" phone line ....also adorned with RCA>XLR ends to use w/the BAT (balanced input only)....and bounch between DACs in the same manor.  though not quite as easy as pushing a button on a remote.

Myseld, Jason Sobel, Jason Adler and Carl Beck in attendence.  Carl left before we started swapping a lot of shit around for comparrison sake.

First off, everything sounded great.  While Carl dismissed the Sony after 5 minute, the rest of us though that it sounded very good, and even outperformed the other DACs in some arenas. 

AMPS  Like I said, the Sony sounded good.  BUt..the class A 100lb BAT sounded even better.  60wpc of fat tube power.  I didn't find it as punchy sounding as the Manley products i've listened to, but it had a nice thump to it.  Strained at higher volumes a bit, and the bottom end would tend to slobber all over the place.  But just a nice juicey sound w/a warm presention.  It mixed VERY well using either of the two DACs.  It wa sreally a matter of chocolate and vanilla between the two.
some of us thought that the difference between them was more noticable on the BAt than the Sony.  I thought otherwise.  For my tastes, it wold be just a tad underpowered.  75wpc would do it, but i'm going to have to hold out for 100w I think. 
the Sony provided us with nice reference quality power, much more slam, speed and impact than the BAT.  The extra power from its 150 digital watts was certainly welcome.  though I fnd that is still a bit weak for me at times.
It was nice to compare the two DACs as well as the Sony's digital input prowess and cycle through them on the sony remote.  A/Bing w/the BAt was near impossible.

DACs Carl wasn't part of this process.  But, we all pretty much decided that we liked the Grace 901 the best.  The benchmark was also very good...but we never discussed anything beyond which one DAC was the favorite and why.  The difference between the benchmark and grace units was subtle.  A deffinate flavor w/o one being clearly superior at all.  It just seemed that the Grace had considerably more weight and bass extension...even in vocals it was aparant.  Imageing was full and the soundstage was wide, using every inch of space between the speakers (and beyond in some cases).  the DAC-1 was the same way...but w/o that extra weght to each instrument, it just didn't seem as tight or focused.
the Sony excelled in a cople of areas.  Detail was pretty damn impressive.  We could hear certain passages much easier w/the Sony than with either of the other two DACs.  Imaging was more stable and occupied a definate space w/o anything happening between one instrument and another in the soundstage.
Overall, the soundstage seemed fuller with both DACs, and full and FAT sounding with the Grace.  dont get me wrong...there was gobs of detail in that too.  You should have heard the Grado R2's through it.  Shit!  Then I could hear the detail that I wasn't getting out of the sony>VR4 chain.  I guess the Sony's amp killed that aspect.
The DIP...we didnt use it much.  But what little listening we did ended up favorable amoung everyone (?).  I'm a fan, any way.

Of course...this is all my opinion, and what I thought we sharred for opinions.  I'm sure the others will chime in with what their thought were.

the fact that the $700 sony on its own was even in the same ballpark as a $6500 901>VK-60 combo says a lot.  but, for pure fidelity, the 901>Grado R2 combo, of which I only listened for two minutes right at the end...was very clearly the highest fidelity i heard tonight.

that was fun guys.  we'll do it again.

[JasonSobel]

Nick - Pretty good summary of the day,  a few things that I'd like to add/clarify.

First off, let me say, it was a long day.  big thanks for Nick for hosting at his place, and for the great barbeque.  Jason & I got up to Nick's at around 12:30 early this afternoon, and we didn't leave until 10:45 PM. 

Grado R2 headphones

It's actually Grado RS-2 headphones 

The DIP (Monarchy Audio DIP 4896 Upsampler)...we didnt use it much.  But what little listening we did ended up favorable amoung everyone (?).  I'm a fan, any way.

the only listening we really did with the DIP was going from Denon straight to the Sony, or going through the DIP and then through the Sony.  The difference was very subtle.  probably the most subtle difference that we tried to compare.  Using the DIP had a slight "smoother" soundstage.  Nick suggested this might be more because of the jitter reduction as opposed to the upsampling to 96kHz.

some of us thought that the difference between them was more noticable on the BAt than the Sony.  I thought otherwise. 

yup, that was me   I thought the differences between the Grace and the DAC-1 were more apparant when going through the BAT tubes.  I could still hear the differences when going analog into the Sony, but it seemed more subtle.  This was actually a surprise for me, because I've been doing all my listening with the grace 901 > grado, and with the headphones, you don't get the FULL sense of bass.  and the grace definitely had fuller, smoother bass, compared to the DAC-1. 

but although Nick thought that the differences were more apparent on the Sony, we generally agreed upon the sonic differences between the two DACs.

You should have heard the Grado R2's through it.  Shit!  Then I could hear the detail that I wasn't getting out of the sony>VR4 chain.  I guess the Sony's amp killed that aspect.

for pure fidelity, the 901>Grado R2 combo, of which I only listened for two minutes right at the end...was very clearly the highest fidelity i heard tonight.

Next time, we'll do more listening with the grado headphones.  perhaps compare the 901 > RS2 combo to the DAC-1 > RS2 combo.  but, as we all know, when there are more than one person doing the listening, it's a lot easier to play the music through speakers.  having several people there to listen through one set of headphones just isn't as practical.

and one last comment about the Sony.  incredibly clear, defined, crisp soundstage.  On a "brittle" recording, it could be a bit much.  This is why Carl dismissed it at the beginning.  The first show we put on was a bit too bright.  The BAT provided a smoother presentation of the music, but the soundstage was not as crisp.

Overall, a great day in Maine for listening.

thanks again for hosting it Nick, and big thanks to Carl who brought the BAT tubes, much appreciated.

[Nick's Picks]

You're welcome Jason.
It was a pleasure to have met another fine TS.com member.  I'm sure you'll be invited up regularly to listen when we get toghter from here on out.

and a double fat +T to CarlBeck for lugging almost 400lbs of gear over.  That would be his amp...and himself.
;-)
the BAT is BIG, and heavy as hell.  It must have been a bitch to move.  Lucky for him (and me) it was left behind so I now get to listen to the DAC1>VK60 for a while.  Pooor me!

[carlbeck]

To defend myself against all the Sony lovers in the room I feel I should clarify a little. There was something in the Sony's presentation of the music that bothered me while listening, I found it grating & fatiguing to listen to. This COULD be a cable issue, maybe some smooth mellow copper cables would help this piece for my tastes. Overall it is a nice piece & bang for the buck wise probably can't be beat.

I don't know why I left early, when I got home I found my wife & niece snuggled on the couch with no intentions of leaving, guess I should have waited a little longer before leaving   Regardless it was a fun day & one we must do again.

Nick, I hope you enjoy the next week with the BAT but I will say (unlike most everything else I own) it is NOT for sale

[Nick's Picks]

no worries from me Carl.  It doesn't have enough punch or power to please me, quite honestly.
but I bet it would drive the shit out of smaller speakers in a smaller room.

funny...the short time I spent w/the Manley stingray....that "tube" sound had way more bottom end "umph" than the BAT does.  And that was 20wpc less than he VK60.

The Sonys sound, when comprred to the BAT is certainly drier and a little crispy.  but I think the material has a lot to do with it too, as Jason S. pointed out.  You should have been around to listen to the DAC comparrison through it.  It held up its end, imo.
You also should have heard the 901>vk60.  that added the punch that the benchmark just couldn't muster.

I'm pumped to listen to it for a while though.
Post your pics !!!

[carlbeck]

I imagine TWO VK-60's running mono at 120wpc might do it for you 

[Nick's Picks]

I should hope so

[Brian Skalinder]

Thanks for all the comments, everyone - makes me wish I lived in the NE so I could've attended!

[zhianosatch]

a bit out of my league, but i agree, very cool!

[scb]

if there's ever something a little closer to NYC,  i'm in

[Charlies]

How much do the rs-2s go for?  Also, what are the qualities that make the rs-2 the "liitle brother" and the rs-1 the "big brother"? Is it just two different flavors or a significant difference in quality between the two? (And how much are the rs-1s?)  Thanks.

[Tall Adam]

if there's ever something a little closer to NYC,  i'm in

word to that. if i had a system at all id be down for organzing....but not too many people would be able to listen to my headphones at the same time, and well my panasonic mini system wouldnt impress anyone

+T for the pics and comments, sounds cool!

[JasonSobel]

How much do the rs-2s go for?  Also, what are the qualities that make the rs-2 the "liitle brother" and the rs-1 the "big brother"? Is it just two different flavors or a significant difference in quality between the two? (And how much are the rs-1s?)  Thanks.

I paid about $500 for the RS-2.  the RS-1 cans are $700.  at the store, I listened to the sr125, sr225, sr325, and then the RS-2 headphones.  each was markedly better than the previous one.  For this reason, and the fact that I didn't want to pay $700 for headphones, I didn't even try out the RS-1's, so I cannot accurately comment on their differences, although I have been told that the differences between the RS-2 and the RS-1 are more subtle than the differences between the sr235 and the RS-2.

the RS-2 and RS-1'a are the only grado's with wooden each chambers.  the RS-1 chamber is a bit bigger than the RS-2.  also, according to the specs posted on the website (http://www.gradolabs.com/), the frequency response of the RS-2's is 14Hz > 28kHz.  the RS-1's are spec'd at 12Hz > 30kHz.

with all that said, I love the RS-2 headphones.  especially because I'm living in an apartment, I don't have room for a nice pair of speakers, and even if I did, it would not be practical for me to play them at loud volumes.  someday, I'd like a nice set of speakers, and probably a tube amp.  but the grace 901 will probably be part of my playback for years

[bhtoque]

I agree with Carl about the brightness of the sony. It was definately a combination of the digital amp and the material. Once we switched from Panic and old dead to studio tapes and the stuff that Jason and I had recorded, the harshness was gone. When we do this again, I'll bring my amp along too. I'm fairly certain that it will fall in the middle between the sony and the bat as far as warmth goes. Be interesting to see how well it drives the vr-4's, since it has never had any trouble with my LS-90's.

JAson

[Charlies]

Thanks, Jason.  So how loud do the rs2s get, with the 901?  Nice works guys for putting aside a day to run this gear and post the helpful info.