Topic: V3 clicks and pops

[whitenite]

where were your levels on the v3 and on the m1 and on the ntrack when you got these pops?

varying from -6 to 0 dB

[whitenite]

sounds like some brick walling. I assume you ran the levels on the v3 all the way up because of the -20? If so, this is most likely the problem. Try to duplicate the situation at home using the same settings and see if you get the error. then turn off the -20 and bring those levels down and I'll bet you won't have the issue.

The V3 was at about 1:00 with the -20.  Remember, these are some sensitive mics.  I ran it again tonight without the -20 and got the same thing - pops and clicks.  To compensate, I ran -12 on the mics.  V3 was at 12:00.

[whitenite]

Have you been able to reproduce the results at home in testing?

No.

Have you been able to reproduce the results at home in testing with different microphones?

No.

Were the V3 and MMe calibrated so levels were the same going into both ADCs?

Yes.

Are the pops/clicks in identical locations on the recordings from both the V3 and MMe ADCs?  Or is it just that both recordings exhibit the same sympton, but not in identical locations?

Yes, they are indentical in location.

Can you tell if the clicks occur on peaks or only on overs?

Both, starting at around -6

[whitenite]

no, i'm pretty sure the lights on the v3 measure the levels at the a/d stage since they max out at 0 dBFS (which is the digital measurement)...i don't fully understand bricking the pre myself but if the spl coming in to the pre is very hot, the preamp circuitry can be overloaded...this is why the sony portables have problems when you run them mic-in...the pre stage overloads easily...when this is the case, if you apply too much gain, the pre overloads and you don't approach overs on the a/d, but it sounds like muffled clipping (it's really an awful sound).  i think this might happen here because with the 20 db pad on the v3 engaged, he may have had to apply a lot of gain to get the levels where he wanted on the a/d...however, at peaks in the music, it was probably overloaded the pre-amp circuitry...i'm not exactly sure if this is correct, but it's my best guess.

This makes a lot of sense.  But the fact remains I wasn't running the V3 that hot.  If these mics weren't so damn sensitive, I wouldn't bother with the -20.

[whitenite]

All some very interesting comments  

Taped again tonight in Hershey with the hyper switch engaged.  I reset the V3 to 0 attentuation and ran it at about 12:00, plus ran -12 atten on the mics.  Was about 15 rows from the PA and got the same results.  Clicks and pops from both recordings.  FYI - I run the MME about 3 dB lower than the V3 (damn calpots).

[Brian Skalinder]

i don't fully understand bricking the pre myself but if the spl coming in to the pre is very hot, the preamp circuitry can be overloaded...this is why the sony portables have problems when you run them mic-in...the pre stage overloads easily...when this is the case, if you apply too much gain, the pre overloads and you don't approach overs on the a/d, but it sounds like muffled clipping (it's really an awful sound).  i think this might happen here because with the 20 db pad on the v3 engaged, he may have had to apply a lot of gain to get the levels where he wanted on the a/d...however, at peaks in the music, it was probably overloaded the pre-amp circuitry...i'm not exactly sure if this is correct, but it's my best guess.

Okay, so, potentially exposing my ignorance here...but I have a different understanding of brickwalling.  My understanding of brickwalling:  too hot a signal hitting the input of the gain stage.  What this means is adding gain after the initial input to the gain stage - as noted above, I think - does not cause brickwalling.  Adding or removing gain *after* the input to the gain stage won't solve the problem.  Only attenuating the signal *before* it hits the input to the gain stage would solve the problem - no amount of gain or attenuation after this point would fix it.

All that said, this situation still sounds funny to me.  The clicking/distortion starting at -6dB is indicative of brickwalling, but the V3 with the jumpers set to -20dB is capable of receiving a pro line level signal, which I think should be far hotter than the mics can output, even if extremely sensitive as you say (no factual reason for me to think this, just gut feeling).

Have you had any problems with brickwalling running these same mics into other pre/ADCs in similar venues/bands/sound systems?

One suggestion:  see if you can borrow a pair of attenuators to see if it solves the problem (which would surprise me at this point) - we're talking -12dB on the mics and -20dB on the V3, that's a fair amount of attenuation!

Do you have an alternative pair of mics you can try out in the field?
Have you swapped out the mic cables?

[Craig T]

cables?  bad solder joint?  try using another set of cables.

when I have a problem, the first thing I try to do is isolate it.  Swap mics, cables, preamp, whatever, until I find where the problem is located.  If you don't have duplicate components, try borrowing some.

I've also run my V3 too hot a few times and never heard clicks/pops on the overs.  The V3 will take a very hot signal, so I have a hard time believing you're overloading its input and brickwalling.

[rabhan]

do you get the same issues when running " mics > mme "  ?

[DaryanLenz]

I got money on the cables.  If this is reoccurring, there is no way in the world that you could be bricking/overloading/whatever every time out, it just isn't possible unless you don't know what you are doing at all, and I don't think this is the case.  Are the clicks pops in both channels?  It has got to be something in the signal path that is fubar, maybe you have a bad v3?  Run just the mme in front of your stereo, does this produce similar results?

Daryan

[Joe w.]

it is certainly not bricking if you were running at 1:00.

[wboswell]

Brian is right on with his definition of brickwalling.  Its too hot of a signal at the input side.  This happens with sony devices when you have to turn the gain below 4.  The gain stage on these units is a variable resistor where the 10 = 0 attenuation and 0 = full attenuation.  When you have to turn down the gain below 4, the signal coming into the unit at input is too hot for the unit to handle.

That being said, it sounds as though your mics can't handle the signal they are receiving and no amount of attenuation on the V3 is going to fix the problem because the signal is already bad when it comes in.

I'd try out the cables, too...  That would be way to easy of a problem to fix

My $.02, which may be worthless.

[scb]

>> I ran it again tonight without the -20 and got the same thing - pops and clicks.  To compensate, I ran -12 on the mics. <<

what happens when there is NO pad at all?

[whitenite]

i don't fully understand bricking the pre myself but if the spl coming in to the pre is very hot, the preamp circuitry can be overloaded...this is why the sony portables have problems when you run them mic-in...the pre stage overloads easily...when this is the case, if you apply too much gain, the pre overloads and you don't approach overs on the a/d, but it sounds like muffled clipping (it's really an awful sound).  i think this might happen here because with the 20 db pad on the v3 engaged, he may have had to apply a lot of gain to get the levels where he wanted on the a/d...however, at peaks in the music, it was probably overloaded the pre-amp circuitry...i'm not exactly sure if this is correct, but it's my best guess.

Okay, so, potentially exposing my ignorance here...but I have a different understanding of brickwalling.  My understanding of brickwalling:  too hot a signal hitting the input of the gain stage.  What this means is adding gain after the initial input to the gain stage - as noted above, I think - does not cause brickwalling.  Adding or removing gain *after* the input to the gain stage won't solve the problem.  Only attenuating the signal *before* it hits the input to the gain stage would solve the problem - no amount of gain or attenuation after this point would fix it.

All that said, this situation still sounds funny to me.  The clicking/distortion starting at -6dB is indicative of brickwalling, but the V3 with the jumpers set to -20dB is capable of receiving a pro line level signal, which I think should be far hotter than the mics can output, even if extremely sensitive as you say (no factual reason for me to think this, just gut feeling).

Have you had any problems with brickwalling running these same mics into other pre/ADCs in similar venues/bands/sound systems?

No, I have run them straight into the MME without any of these issues.

One suggestion:  see if you can borrow a pair of attenuators to see if it solves the problem (which would surprise me at this point) - we're talking -12dB on the mics and -20dB on the V3, that's a fair amount of attenuation!

I already possess the Shures, but haven't needed them.

Do you have an alternative pair of mics you can try out in the field?
Have you swapped out the mic cables?

No other mics right now (none worthy of using, anyway).  Have another set of cables (Blue) I might try, though.  I use 20' Hosas now.

[whitenite]

Brian is right on with his definition of brickwalling.  Its too hot of a signal at the input side.  This happens with sony devices when you have to turn the gain below 4.  The gain stage on these units is a variable resistor where the 10 = 0 attenuation and 0 = full attenuation.  When you have to turn down the gain below 4, the signal coming into the unit at input is too hot for the unit to handle.

That being said, it sounds as though your mics can't handle the signal they are receiving and no amount of attenuation on the V3 is going to fix the problem because the signal is already bad when it comes in.

I find that hardly the case.  These are $4k tubes.  As mentioned, the MME handles it fine.

I'd try out the cables, too...  That would be way to easy of a problem to fix

My $.02, which may be worthless.

[Brian Skalinder]

I already possess the Shures, but haven't needed them.

Sounds like you might need them!  At least as a test, anyway.

I find that hardly the case.  These are $4k tubes.  As mentioned, the MME handles it fine.

I think wboswell means running the mics > MMe standalone.  From the thread, I've only read that you've gone V3 analog out > MMe.  


I'd try three things at this point, one step at a time:

[1]  change the mic cables
[2]  run mics > MMe standalone
[3]  run the Shure attenuators in front of the V3
(you have them, might as well see if they solve the problem...sorry if you've tried this before, but I don't think I saw it mentioned in the thread)