Topic: cable to block phantom?

[bluegrass_brad]

What about using an active DI (no transformer at all right?)? That seems perfect for this, and if you look, you can find many DI's with pads that can take line-in easily. These boxes will be powered by the phantom, but not pass it back to the source, plus they will turn it into a balanced connection, which means you could do longer cables runs from the SBD to your deck. Some of them can even sum two inputs, so you could sum a stereo SBD to mono, block phantom, and do a long cable run from the SBD (maybe even back through the returns of the house snake if you want to setup closer to the stage?).

Active DI's still have transformers. Thats how they balance a signal. Some also really color the sound. Ive used several different types in FOH work.  A Countryman doesnt sound like a Radial Labs, which doesnt sound like a BSS, etc.

[BayTaynt3d]

Ome more thing, does anyone know if the R4 puts phantom out on TRS? It's quite possible it doesn't, which in this case might solve the problem without even needing an inline?

[BayTaynt3d]

What about using an active DI (no transformer at all right?)? That seems perfect for this, and if you look, you can find many DI's with pads that can take line-in easily. These boxes will be powered by the phantom, but not pass it back to the source, plus they will turn it into a balanced connection, which means you could do longer cables runs from the SBD to your deck. Some of them can even sum two inputs, so you could sum a stereo SBD to mono, block phantom, and do a long cable run from the SBD (maybe even back through the returns of the house snake if you want to setup closer to the stage?).

Active DI's still have transformers. Thats how they balance a signal. Some also really color the sound. Ive used several different types in FOH work.  A Countryman doesnt sound like a Radial Labs, which doesnt sound like a BSS, etc.

Just curious, I've been thinking about buying a DI for taping b/c I tape jazz trios a fair bit where I frequently use an extra spot mic or two with my main pair going into an R4. Got any suggestions for an active/passive DI to be used mostly for double-bass? And possibly guitars? That isn't too "colored"?

[bluegrass_brad]

your gonna run the mics into a DI then into your R4?

[BayTaynt3d]

your gonna run the mics into a DI then into your R4?

No man...

Maybe I should spell it out more? Say I'm recording an acoustic jazz trio, say bass drums, sax (or maybe piano or trumpet). Often I'll run a stereo pair into the R4, but knowing that the bass and/or piano often end up being weak in the mix, I'll spot mic one or both of them as well. That's using all four channels on my recorder. At other times, in a trio format in particular, I might just spot mic everyone and skip the stereo pair altogether (sometimes I'll use one overhead and one kick for drums, them mic the bassist's amp, and stick a mic in the piano or in front of the sax depending on instrumentation). Anyway, micing a bass amp often is muddy as hell for my tastes, so I'd like to have a DI with me to get a direct from the double-bass. Remember these are mostly acoustic gigs, so there is no PA and no engineer and the bassist typically won't bring a DI, just an amp or possibly no amp at all. If I had my own DI, and I know the bassists who would be cool with it, I can get them to stick my DI b/w their bass and their amp so I can take a direct feed into one channel of my R4 (and NOT use a mic at all). Especially in cases where I'm running a stereo pair, being able to reinforce the bass with a dry/clean extra punch might sound great cause I'll have all the ambient/room I need in the AUD pair.

[bluegrass_brad]

Gotcha.  Honestly I think they all color it to some degree, even when they claim that they dont.  I have a couple of Countryman Type 85's that I use.  I bought those mostly because lots of venues have them and I had used them often and knew their sound. You can get them for around $150 or so.  Radial Labs makes some really nice DI boxes as well. BSS too. Are these guys playing upright acoustic bass or electric bass?

[rowjimmy]

I've seen an inline device for this... the stated intent was to protect a ribbon mic from 48v...

Gonna have to dig around to remember/find where.

Well, the good news is that i remembered where I saw them.

The bad news is that he's no longer marketing them:
http://www.naiant.com/studiostore/cleverdevices.html

No sign anywhere but I know with absolute certainty that they were there at one time. According to the front page of the store (I used an old link to get in) he's on vacation until Jan 8 or so but after that you might want to drop him a line.

[BayTaynt3d]

Gotcha.  Honestly I think they all color it to some degree, even when they claim that they dont.  I have a couple of Countryman Type 85's that I use.  I bought those mostly because lots of venues have them and I had used them often and knew their sound. You can get them for around $150 or so.  Radial Labs makes some really nice DI boxes as well. BSS too. Are these guys playing upright acoustic bass or electric bass?

Stand up double/contra-bass...

[bluegrass_brad]

with a stand up bass I would try to have some type of mic blended in with the DI. Like if you were running a stereo pair onstage and blending the DI in with it, or had another instrument miced close enough to the bass to get some bleed.  I have worked with a bunch of acoustic instruments doing sound and no matter how nice the pickup and how nice the pre they are running it into, I just dont like the sound of a DI all by itself. When you mic the bass are you micing the amp, or the bass itself? 

[BayTaynt3d]

with a stand up bass I would try to have some type of mic blended in with the DI. Like if you were running a stereo pair onstage and blending the DI in with it, or had another instrument miced close enough to the bass to get some bleed.  I have worked with a bunch of acoustic instruments doing sound and no matter how nice the pickup and how nice the pre they are running it into, I just dont like the sound of a DI all by itself. When you mic the bass are you micing the amp, or the bass itself? 

Yeah, I hear you bigtime. That usually isn't a problem b/c I usually am using a stereo pair as my main source, then just adding a tiny bit of extra bass to get the balance a little better -- so in that instance, I'm thinking the clean DI might be perfect. Right now, I will mic their amp if they are using one, and if they aren't, then the bass itself, but since I'm more of a taper (and not their engineer), I try not to be too demanding of the here's my mic, let me put it right in front of you so you can play into it, and please don't knock it kind of thing, cause many times they aren't really thinking that their there to make a recording. So, in those cases (no amp), I might a little farther back than I'm sure the bassist would do in a studio or other live sound scenarios. Also, if they are amped, I tend to get bass bleed into all of the other mics anyway -- cause although I may be spot micing, it's not like ppl are playing directly into an SM57 or anything, I'm usually a bit back from each instrument so as to get a little more ambient and be a little more out of their way. That bleed is good and bad I've found. Sometimes it screws me on the phasing/imaging front, other times it makes it sound freakin' awesome cause it gives some spread to some of the instruments. It's been real hit or miss for me. Anyway, I hear you about the dry DI sound with the bass, but usually I'm just reinforcing a stereo pair, and if not, I usually do have bleed from the bass into the other mics, so I think I'll be alright, but point taken. Also, I've been reading up on micing the bass amp, and I think I might try something different next time I have the chance -- I've been putting my mic offset from the center of the cone, but next time I might try pointing it DFC straight into the cone cause I've read I'll get a little more definition and highs (and less mud) that way, but not sure about the SPLs b/c I'm doing this with a SD condenser (maybe I should buy one SM57 for the job, but my phantom is linked in pairs on the R4, will phantom fry a 57?).

[bluegrass_brad]

That explains some of it.  Another thing I would suggest if close micing is backing the mic off of the bass cabinet a little bit to reduce proximity effect, which could be contributing to the muddiness. using a DI as reinforcment is right on though, and should work well for what you are wanting since it will have some acoustic reinforcment through other mics.  Phantom power wont hurt a dynamic mic like a 57. Ribbons it can, but dynamic's like a 57 wont be hurt and it wont change the way they sound.

[BayTaynt3d]

Thanks for the help, this close-micing stuff in new for me, but I've been experimenting and reading a lot about it. I appreciate your help for sure. Good to know about the 57 and phantom, I might just get me one of those. I've actually thought about close-mcing the bass amp with an omni b/c of the proximity effect thinking that if I was close enough, the bleed might not be that bad, and since I'm only recording, feedback isn't a concern of mine, but that's probably not a good idea. Also, I wonder if I could damage a 481 or C4 by putting it right in front of the cone? Both those mics can handle decent SPLs, but not sure about in this application? It seemed fine with the C4 slightly off-center on the cone, but I did have to run line-in on the R4 to handle it the times I've done that. (Whoa, talk about a thread-jack... LOL!)

[bluegrass_brad]

A 57 would be a good all around mic investment, You can use them in lots of places.   57's work fine and are cheap and tough but they are nothing special. I use them often cause every venue has tons of them. If I was investing in a dynamic for myself for recording I think I would go with a Beyer M88 or a 201 (there is some discussion in another thread here on the Beyerdynamic dynamics), or a Sennheiser 421. But those are alot more pricey than a 57.

[Chuck]

I've seen an inline device for this... the stated intent was to protect a ribbon mic from 48v...

Gonna have to dig around to remember/find where.

Well, the good news is that i remembered where I saw them.

The bad news is that he's no longer marketing them:
http://www.naiant.com/studiostore/cleverdevices.html

No sign anywhere but I know with absolute certainty that they were there at one time. According to the front page of the store (I used an old link to get in) he's on vacation until Jan 8 or so but after that you might want to drop him a line.

Yeah, they were. E-mail him. He may have some left.

[BayTaynt3d]

A 57 would be a good all around mic investment, You can use them in lots of places.   57's work fine and are cheap and tough but they are nothing special. I use them often cause every venue has tons of them. If I was investing in a dynamic for myself for recording I think I would go with a Beyer M88 or a 201 (there is some discussion in another thread here on the Beyerdynamic dynamics), or a Sennheiser 421. But those are alot more pricey than a 57.

What's interesting is that I already own a dynamic mic that I use for ENG field interviewing type of stuff. It's an Electro Voice RE50/B, and it's BOMBER and used in electronic news gathering by major networks all of the time. But, it's an omni and I'm not sure how "musical" it is. Even though it's an omni, it's NOT an omni like we're used to around these parts, you really have to shove it in someone's face to pick up their voice well, but it's got an AMAZING lack of handling noise b/w the omni and the fact that the capsule is internally shock-mounted. Anyway, I wonder if I could get away with using it for micing a bass cabinet just as effectively as buying an SM57?

OOPS. Just checked the specs, it bottoms out at 80 Hz, so that kind of sucks for bass amping, LOL! And I can't find the Max SPL in the specs anywhere. Oh, well... It's still an INCREDIBLE interview mic...