Topic: Need Help with 24 bit editing

[Albix714]

I recently transferred Cassettes > Nak Deck > RCA/XLR > V3(@2496) > coax > Audiophile 2496 > WaveLab 5 > 4 24 bit Wav files (1 for each tape side).

I then edited in 24 bit (WaveLab), upsampling patches to 2496.  Now I have Set I in one 24 bit Wave file and Set II in two 24 bit Wave files.

My questions

- I want to dither to 16/44.1 and flac. Should I dither first and then track?

- Should I track and then dither?

I'm looking to get HQ results and I have plugins for dithering, EQ etc.

Thanks.

[Gordon]

I've done some cass transfers this way and I prefer to track in 24 bit and then use the batch process in wavelab to resample/dither.  that way you also have a tracked 24 bit source in case you want to make a dvd-a etc.

[Albix714]

Thanks Gordon.

Makes sense.

[kindms]

Here is what I would do.

using your "fixed" 24 bit files. I would change the sample rate and dither to 16/44.1 in Wavelab. Save the files.

Open CD WAV EDITOR. track the 24 bit files and save cue sheets. Then simply open the 16bit files. Load the cue sheets. When it asks you if u want to open the files associated with the cue sheets say NO. The result will be the 16Bit file tracked exactly as you tracked the 24Bit files . Save the 16Bit files.

[Albix714]

Thanks to all! I'll give it a try 

[F.O.Bean]

Here is what I would do.

using your "fixed" 24 bit files. I would change the sample rate and dither to 16/44.1 in Wavelab. Save the files.

Open CD WAV EDITOR. track the 24 bit files and save cue sheets. Then simply open the 16bit files. Load the cue sheets. When it asks you if u want to open the files associated with the cue sheets say NO. The result will be the 16Bit file tracked exactly as you tracked the 24Bit files . Save the 16Bit files.

ding ding ding. exactly what i do. 

with the saved cue sheets i label my tracks like so: gd1984-06-26s1t01, gd1984-06-26s1t02, gd1984-06-26set1t03, etc, etc.  that way nothing has to be changed for either the 24 or the 16 bit file set when the cue files are loaded to each one.  saves a lot of time and allows the use of one set of cue sheets for both versions. 

this is exactly what i do but i track my dithered copy FIRST and tHEN open the 24-bit untracked wavs and open the 16-bit cue sheet

[Albix714]

Cool, one question, I have two 24 bit wav files (Set II Side A & B).

Drums continues on from Side A to Side B.

So, I need to join  A & B but WaveLab won't allow more than 2 GB files. This file would be around 3 GB. Is there a way to work around this?

[F.O.Bean]

Cool, one question, I have two 24 bit wav files (Set II Side A & B).

Drums continues on from Side A to Side B.

So, I need to join  A & B but WaveLab won't allow more than 2 GB files. This file would be around 3 GB. Is there a way to work around this?

i usually make a track inbetween songs with cd wave, then rejoin in wavelab as two new tracks:

raq2006-12-09.2496.set1a and
raq2006-12-09.2496.set1b and so on

if you have files that big you just ahve to deal with it, once ditehred/resampled/etc, i track out the 16-bit source and save the cue sheet, then save the files as wav/flacs, open 24-bit file in cdwave, open cue sheet DO NOT open associated wav, this will trak the 24-bit from the 16-bit cue sheet, but since your 24-bit wavs are so big you have to manually track the end of the set because the cue sheet cant track what isnt there

i try and make my initial track on the HUGE 24-bit file in cdwave as close to the end of the set inbetween songs just so that when i load my 24-bit wav/cue sheet, as much of the set is tracked as possible

unless you have WL 6.0, this is the easiest and most efficient way to process the 24/96 files

i dont like tracking it all out first and THEN resampling/ditherings because:

1. if any editing needs done(gain/EQ/etc) the tracks are all split up and you have to open the untracked wav anyway

2. tracking in cdwave and then resampling/dithering lastly on the tracked files is a DEF known issue on causing SBE's and missing samples

so do all of your editing FIRST then track lastly

dmonterisi ran tests as long as two years ago and confirmed this

[Albix714]

Thanks Bean 

[Albix714]

Thank you Tim! That helps. Growing weary of patching, btw.

[Albix714]

Follow up. Thanks again, the cue sheet method worked and saved time too 

[rustle]

dmonterisi ran tests as long as two years ago and confirmed this

 Very cool.
When I started 24 bit in spring of '02, I got the answer to this question from Dan Heend who published this in his "24 Bit Field Recording FAQ". 
 By the way, you guys taught this "old dog" a nice trick with the cue sheets. I would start all over from scratch with 16 bit files. Thanks

[F.O.Bean]

dmonterisi ran tests as long as two years ago and confirmed this

 Very cool.
When I started 24 bit in spring of '02, I got the answer to this question from Dan Heend who published this in his "24 Bit Field Recording FAQ". 
 By the way, you guys taught this "old dog" a nice trick with the cue sheets. I would start all over from scratch with 16 bit files. Thanks

I just started saving cue sheets when i entered the 24-bit realm in early june, what a sweet thing, i save all of my cue sheets with my untracked data .wav24 folders and make an md5 and bam, done, i also keep a cue sheet in my untracked flac24 folder as well

[Albix714]

Here's the result: http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=503440

Thanks again for the tips!

[T.J.]

okay guys,

I'm in the process doing post work on my first couple 24/48 recordings. I've read numerous threads on this and tried some suggestions. But for some reason I'm having some uncertainties and problems. I figured I'd post here instead of starting my own thread. Here goes:

i think i had a wav header problem when i resampled/dithered my UM show the other night. here is what i did:

-Tools > Batch Process > added 24/48 untouched masters for set 1 and 2 (NOTE: both are under 2 gig).
-Selected Batch 1 > stacked Resampler 196 (44.1) & UV22 HR (16).
-Selected Output tab > selected the destination folder and made sure 16/44.1 was selected
-Then I processed both the files.

The first set came out fine, but when I listened to the second it is noticabley slower, suggesting the header is mismatched with the file info. I reopened the 16/44.1 second set (the slower one) in wavelab and it says it's 16/44.1. Is there someway to check if the file is in fact mismatched with the header? I find it odd set one would be fine but set two is mismatched.

Also I still can't figure out the proper way to create a new file from the 24 bit when using the batch process. In the Output tab I selected the destination folder i wanted but it will not create a new file. I think i'm just missing something basic.

So my two questions are:
-What is the proper way to utilize the Batch Process function to resample and dither 24/48 files to 16/44.1?
-How can I save original untouched 24/48 files while creating new 16/44.1 files with the Batch Process function?

I think I'm close on getting a handle on my 24 bit workflow. basically i want to go:
untouched 24/48 master > resample/dither in WL 5.0 > save both 24/48 & 16/44.1 masters > add gain & fades to 16/44.1 in WL 5.0 > save > track in cdwave and save files/cue sheet to use on 24 bit files at a later date.

thoughts, suggestions, and tips and much appreciated.
thanks!

[Brian Skalinder]

I think I'm close on getting a handle on my 24 bit workflow. basically i want to go:
untouched 24/48 master > resample/dither in WL 5.0 > save both 24/48 & 16/44.1 masters > add gain & fades to 16/44.1 in WL 5.0 > save > track in cdwave and save files/cue sheet to use on 24 bit files at a later date.

Best to perform editing at the highest bit-depth / sample rate, so consider changing the workflow a bit:

untouched 24/48 master > add gain & fades (and any other edits) to 16/44.1 in WL 5.0 > resample/dither in WL 5.0 > save both 24/48 & 16/44.1 masters > track in cdwave and save files/cue sheet to use on 24 bit files at a later date.

[T.J.]

i did a quick search but couldn't find an answer to why it is important to edit (i.e. add gain & fades which is all the editing i do) before the resample/dither step of the process. my guess is all edits should be done on the original bit/sample rate b/c it's just easier to do this before you resample/dither. by editing your files once on the highest sample/bit rate you don't have to go back and redo this.

So is it possible to go master 24/48 > edit (add gain/fades) > resample/dither > then save two files: 24/48 and 16/44.1 in WL 5.0 using batch process? this way i can have two sets of files that are identical (other than bit/sample rate) and use cdwave to track the 24 bit file and save the cue sheet to be applied to the 16/44.1 file?

as you can probably tell by now, i really want to figure this batch process thing out b/c it seems to save time and effort if used correctly. TIA

[momule]

Here is what I would do.

using your "fixed" 24 bit files. I would change the sample rate and dither to 16/44.1 in Wavelab. Save the files.

Open CD WAV EDITOR. track the 24 bit files and save cue sheets. Then simply open the 16bit files. Load the cue sheets. When it asks you if u want to open the files associated with the cue sheets say NO. The result will be the 16Bit file tracked exactly as you tracked the 24Bit files . Save the 16Bit files.

Or you could just figure out how to properly use Wavelab and do everything in it.  Seems kinda funny to me to be using a full blown mastering suite and not doing anything with it but adding some fades and re sampling... Ect. 

If ya look around ya should be bale to figure out how to track something in a few minutes and shave some time off your mastering and have a cleaner linage.  And before you ask yes wavelab splits files at SB's.  although if your encoding to flac it don't really matter.

 

[Brian Skalinder]

i did a quick search but couldn't find an answer to why it is important to edit (i.e. add gain & fades which is all the editing i do) before the resample/dither step of the process. my guess is all edits should be done on the original bit/sample rate b/c it's just easier to do this before you resample/dither. by editing your files once on the highest sample/bit rate you don't have to go back and redo this.

Convenience is one reason, but the bigger reason is higher resolution (bit-depth and sample rate) produces higher quality edits.

[F.O.Bean]

TJ, ya still have that workfl;ow i gave ya for WL? i know its a few more added steps but it produces the most HQ files in the end. years ago Damon ran a few tests to verify why you should NEVER batch process your files when resampling/dithering. do them one chunk at a time

but as always, YMMV

[todd e]

bean - point me to that if you can, batch processing is SOOO much easier and efficient.

'that' = the thing you mention about damon saying not to batch process

[momule]

I’m calling the bluff on this one.  IMO It makes ABSOLUTELY no difference in sound quality to batch or to do the entire file at one time.  Bits are bits no matter how ya chop them.  Still 8 bits in a byte. 

Let me hear an example and I will retract my statement.  Other wise I'm saying you're wasting your time. Which is your time to waste I guess. 

Now if ya wanna argue that one algorithm is better than the other that a whole other party.
 

[Brian Skalinder]

point me to that if you can

I believe this is the thread in question:

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,49027.0.html

[T.J.]

I’m calling the bluff on this one.  IMO It makes ABSOLUTELY no difference in sound quality to batch or to do the entire file at one time.  Bits are bits no matter how ya chop them.  Still 8 bits in a byte. 

Let me hear an example and I will retract my statement.  Other wise I'm saying you're wasting your time. Which is your time to waste I guess. 

Now if ya wanna argue that one algorithm is better than the other that a whole other party.
 

i'm not the best to comment on this b/c i have no knowledge of the difference b/w the both. i used this workflow posted by bean:

1. open wav
2. add gain if necessary
3. 'process' then 'convert sample rate' resample to 44.1k
4. then i open the 'master section' and apply the UV22HR dither, then hit render
5. select 'whole file' and 'create new file' under the 'file' tab.
6. then hit batch
7. now hit the 'output' tab and make sure your output directory for the 16/44.1k file is going to save on the right folder
8. now in the output format box to the right, open the big box in output format and make sure the ONLY change is the 16-bit resolution box since you already resampled. I know its an extra step but its the correct way to do it.
9.if you are adding multiple files go back under the 'Input' tab and hit the folder with the + on it
10. click run and sit back

i really want to utilize the batch process feature on wavelab, but for some reason my dither/resampled files are being generated longer than the master. what am i doing wrong? i select 16/44.1 in the output box, in both plug ins, and at the bottom of the screen. ultimately i want to generate a new 16/44.1 and still have the 24/48 file to save seperately. can someone post a step by step who uses the batch process? i feel i've tried everying...i must be missing something  

[momule]

point me to that if you can

I believe this is the thread in question:

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,49027.0.html

No offense but that really don't prove a thing except that he has alot of time on his hands.
Take the cdwave crap out of the equation all together.  Again why would anyone wanna load a 24 bit file into more than one software application.  Spend some of that extra time reading the wavelab help pages.
It will make your mastering time faster and your linage cleaner. 

who tracks>resamples>dithers.  Other than maybe making a DVD-A(which of an aud tape to me is a whole other story) It seems kinda crazy to me to track a 24 bit source.  Now if ya really wanna a tracked 24 bit source put some markers in and then save the file.