Topic: New Purchase...

[bkirby]

Well, ya'll have become the death of me and I've bit the bullet and just purchased a Music Hall MMF-5 along with a couple of LPs, some record sleeves, an Oznow Zerodust stylus cleaner, and a Thorens cleaning kit. Just ordered today from Acoustic Sounds so the whole enchillada should be here next week.  I am essentially new to vinyl (minus some playing around as a kid) and I'm looking for just generic tips on setup, cleaning, storage, etc. Should I purchase a cleaning machine or just deal with the cleaning kit for now? How often should I deeply clean a record? Any help would be most appreciated...

For now, the MMF-5 will be going directly to the Outlaw 990 preamp (yes, it has a phono input) > Adcom GFA-5802 > VR2s. Once I get a little more comfortable with vinyl, I'll start looking for a relatively cheap but good phono pre.

[nickgregory]

Very cool.  I have just gotten into vinyl again and I am amazed at the imaging and overall sound quality that you can get with a clean record, when compared to the CD counterpart.  So my advice is based on limited experience, but what I am doing, based on advice here and other readings around the web is to deep clean the record once, then use a carbon fiber brush over it before I play it, and place the record in an antistatic sleeve for storage.  I also bought some outer covers for the album jacket, mainly because I am anal, but I believe that it will help keep dust as far away from the vinyl as possible and preserve the jacket for me. 

As for whether you need a record cleaning machine or not, that is a tough call.  I was using the D4 kit to begin with and found an amazing deal on a new Nitty Gritty cleaning machine on craigslist and jumped on it.  On new or rarely played vinyl, I am not sure I hear much of a difference when I take a disc that I had cleaned with the D4 kit and listened, then used the nitty gritty.  But on stuff that has seen some use, but still in great shape, it does sound a bit smoother to me to have a cleaned and vacuumed record.  The other thing is visually, there is a difference in my view when I look at a record that has been cleaned with the machine, it just looks cleaner, than when I do it with the D4 kit.  But as I told Chris last night, who knows I may be imagining it.  But even if I am, I can still get behind the theory behind cleaned vinyl, which is a great argument to me.

As for setup, it was pretty easy for me, but I have a different table, so I don’t know…I am sure someone else will chime in here…

And the best thing is you can walk in a record shop and walk out with 30 records for $60, and walk out with stuff that has never made it to CD!

Enjoy! 

[bkirby]

Thanks for the tips Nick +T. I am looking forward to getting everything set up and play around. Also looking forward to searching for used vinyl collections and/or hunting through shops and raiding friend's vinyl.

Also, curious if it's worth it to upgrade mats. Are they really worth it to keep records clean and static-free or just keep the felt for now?

I guess I'll be in search for a used or cheap cleaning machine. Most cost more that my TT which just doesn't seem right. Maybe I will look into building something like Carl did. Thanks again though...

[nickgregory]

fwiw, the nitty gritty record doctor I got sells new for $250....manual turning and cleaning, but has the vacuum and easy to use...nice price for what it does imo...

[nickgregory]

and some good info in this thread

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,82205.0.html

[Nick's Picks]

nice Brad. 
as for inexpensive phono preamps...i've been very curious to hear how the Audio Experience phono pre is.  Seeing how awesome their line level preamps are (for the price), I can only imagin that the rest of their gear is just as good.

i'm in audio transit w/vinyl.  can't make up my mind.  I know its fun, I know it sounds great.  I know that you have to dump $100 into cleaning supplies every now and again.  thats the part I dont like. 
my other problem is I'm so in love with my Odyssey Cyclops amp...that in order to make analog work for me I have to buy a whole new rig as my Cyclops only has one input, and its being utilized by my digital front end.
so, for me to make it happen...I would have to go w/new Odyssey seperates (tempest pre, which does include MM/MC phono preamp stage) and stratos amp. 
We'll see....

[bkirby]

nice Brad. 
as for inexpensive phono preamps...i've been very curious to hear how the Audio Experience phono pre is.  Seeing how awesome their line level preamps are (for the price), I can only imagin that the rest of their gear is just as good.

i'm in audio transit w/vinyl.  can't make up my mind.  I know its fun, I know it sounds great.  I know that you have to dump $100 into cleaning supplies every now and again.  thats the part I dont like. 
my other problem is I'm so in love with my Odyssey Cyclops amp...that in order to make analog work for me I have to buy a whole new rig as my Cyclops only has one input, and its being utilized by my digital front end.
so, for me to make it happen...I would have to go w/new Odyssey seperates (tempest pre, which does include MM/MC phono preamp stage) and stratos amp. 
We'll see....

Nick, I was on the fence for about a year as well and finally decided to say screw it and give it a whirl. I'm worried about the whole cleaning thing, but if I can get a cleaning machine at a decent price (or make my own), it may make things easier. For now, I'll see how it goes with the Thorens cleaning kit.

As for phono preamps, I have thought about the Bottlehead Seduction, Graham Slee Gram Amp 2, the Audio Experience Concerto, the Creek OBH-18, and the CIAudio VPP-1. Other possibilities are floating about as I would really like the PS Audio preamp, but it's still a bit high in price. FRor now, I will just use the phono pre in the Outlaw 990. I will have to wait and see how much I really enjoy this whole vinyl thing.

As for cleaning, if I can't find an inexpensive machine, then I may go my own route. I've come across these two sites that have some info., but this will just have to take a lot more research once I find out exactly what I want and need in a cleaning machine...

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/recordcleaner.htm

http://www.teresaudio.com/haven/cleaner/cleaner.html

Thanks again Nick and Nick for all of the great info. Looking forward to hearing some Zeppelin vinyl ringing throughout my whole neighborhood...

Brad K.

[nickgregory]

Thanks again Nick and Nick for all of the great info. Looking forward to hearing some Zeppelin vinyl ringing throughout my whole neighborhood...

Brad K.

I cleaned and listened to Houses of the Holy last night and had to listen to it twice...the CD in this case pales in comparison to the vinyl. 

damn, just saw this...absurd deal...

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1183934643

[bkirby]

Thanks again Nick and Nick for all of the great info. Looking forward to hearing some Zeppelin vinyl ringing throughout my whole neighborhood...

Brad K.

I cleaned and listened to Houses of the Holy last night and had to listen to it twice...the CD in this case pales in comparison to the vinyl. 

damn, just saw this...absurd deal...

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1183934643

Damn! I guess this just sold as I was reading through the "Team Vinyl" thread! Oh well...

[shane]

Is a cleaning machine really necessary?  Except for old dirty records I can't see much of a need for one.  I have some stuff from the 70's that I just go over with my MoFi brush dry.  Seems to be all they need.  I do the same to new records.  only difference is the amount of dust and such that comes out.

Shane

[nickgregory]

Some people swear by it.  I read somewhere some guys do it to every album before they play it, every time.  That is overkill in my opinion, but I can buy into cleaning the vinyl and then storing it properly and you should be good.

I am just not sure there is such a thing as clean vinyl anymore.  Old stuff has years of crap caught up in it and I have heard that even new records have crap caught up in the grooves from the processing activity.   As stated above I have heard improvements on older vinyl cleaned with the Record Doctor vs using the D4 system (getting rid of pops and a little less veiled), but for new stuff who knows.  But in theory I agree with the value at having a strong vacuum pulling all the liquid out of the grooves from cleaning and also left over residue that the brush cant get at.

[carlbeck]

I only have a minute but trust me a machine is well worth it, night & day difference. Most of the pops & clicks is caused by dirt, get a good machine, just make one like I did & you will see. Your money back if not satisfied!

[Nick's Picks]

wow..that sounds just like your Mom's guarantee.

[carlbeck]

wow..that sounds just like your Mom's guarantee.

Yep, it is hers, she knows if I don't satisfy your wife I will give her all YOUR money back

OK, so somehow I ended up with a minus T yesterday after I posted my thoughts on a vacuum, interesting. Anyway, you can make a record vac very cheaply. In fact you will spend more on chemicals then you will on the actual vacuum set up. I never realized how important the vacuum stage is but with normal cleaners all you are doing is pushing the dirt deeper into the grooves. With a good machine you can use the fluid to get the dirt into suspension then remove it instead of pushing it in deeper. It will take a record that is unbearable to listen to & bring it back from the dead.

[nickgregory]

this is the same machine I got.  Depending on what it goes for, could be a good deal

http://cgi.ebay.com/RECORD-DOCTOR-VINYL-CLEANING-MACHINE-PLUS-FLUID-BRUSHES_W0QQitemZ200108449896QQihZ010QQcategoryZ3283QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[bkirby]

Thanks Carl, and +T for your effort. I think I have finally decided to build my own cleaning machine. I found a local record store yesterday that mostly sells records online (www.recordfinders.com) that has just about everything you can think of, all for $2 each. I got The Who Quadrophenia album with full covers, very good condition for $2. I couldn't believe what I was finding. Led Zeppelin Physical Graffitti (both LPs), $2. Van Halen discs, $2. I met the owner and he showed me the wharehouse of backstock he has. He has estimated well over 4 million records and trust me, I've seen it and I fully believe him. Some are in fair all the way to mint condition. Online, he sells everything for various prices. For the lucky who can get here, everything is $2. I walked away with 15 LPs yesterday, I don't think I'll get off as easily today!

I also talked to the owner about cleaning machines and he agrees it's cheaper and easier to build your own. He has quite a few busted up turntables that I can put together something easily. This will apparentally be my project for the weekend, but I think I will try and find a cleaning arm like Carl has from VPI for my cleaner.

Thanks again everyone. Seems like I am well on my way, but still waiting for my damn TT to get here as I have all these new LPs, and nothing to play them on...

[carlbeck]

I love finding mint records for cheap, it is almost as much fun as listening! Have fun Brad, it is the best thing I have ever done with audio, hopefully you'll feel the same way.

[bkirby]

Finally got everything all set up and all s running well. I went ahead and got a Cambridge 640P phono pre since the one in the Outlaw 990 was pretty noisy. Still breking everything in, but sounds great so far.
Hope eveyone has a great weekend...
Brad K.

[nickgregory]

congrats!  it really is a fantastic new world...

[som]

congrats!  it really is a fantastic new world...

"New"....I love it!   

[carlbeck]

The 640p is a great pre-amp, I just replaced mine with a phonomeca but honestly the difference was subtle at best. I think you'll find you have to spend a LOT more money to improve upon what you have. Analog is what it's all about for sure 

[stevetoney]

congrats!  it really is a fantastic new world...

Funny statement considering how lots of the vinyl that people buy are 30 or more years old.

An interesting thing about records that are selling in the relic stores for...say $2 to $4 apiece...is that this isn't probably all that far off what the cost of these things were when they were new.  I suppose $2 was a bit low on average, but I remember that most of my record collection (probably 500 or more) was bought from around '68 to probably '77 or so, and I'm thinking that I paid something in the $4.29 to $4.99 range in oh maybe 1973 or so.

Ha...it reminds me of my first job, actually, which was at a grocery store bagging groceries for I think around $2.50 an hour.  I remember thinking in terms of...if I work X number of hours, I can buy Y new albums.  I still think that way!!!

BTW, this comment isn't to say that finding records for $2 isn't sweet, it's just an interesting observation that I think it's probable that my first Beatles record (and my first record ever) only cost that much new in 1965 when I was 7...but I remember that it took me a month to save that much because my Mom only gave me 50 cents a week for my allowance. 

Wouldn't mind having that same record in pristine condition now!!!

[boojum]

Records were 4.98 and 5.98 "back in the day" and went up in price over the years.  I listened to vinyl for 30 years and do not miss it.  No clicks, pops, rumble, wow, flutter, degrading sound quality, deteriorating highs toward the center and so on.  No, CD's are a huge jump forward.  You may like the analog sound, but it is not as accurate even if it is more sweet sounding.  Early CD's were not all that good as they were processed the way LP's were and it did not work well.  They had a good run until the labels got into serious compression.  I believe this is more a pop thing than classical and jazz.  YMMV     

[carlbeck]

Records were 4.98 and 5.98 "back in the day" and went up in price over the years.  I listened to vinyl for 30 years and do not miss it.  No clicks, pops, rumble, wow, flutter, degrading sound quality, deteriorating highs toward the center and so on.  No, CD's are a huge jump forward.  You may like the analog sound, but it is not as accurate even if it is more sweet sounding.  Early CD's were not all that good as they were processed the way LP's were and it did not work well.  They had a good run until the labels got into serious compression.  I believe this is more a pop thing than classical and jazz.  YMMV     

The pops & clicks are easliy fixed by proper cleaning techniques. Quite frankly I have NEVER heard a CD, DVD or SACD that can hold a candle to a 30 year old record. I put my money where my mouth is & have invested most of my system money into analog reproduction & software. I have no regrets but to each his own 

[Nick's Picks]

analog has a definite quality to it, but "better" is subjective.
you may like it better, but that doesn't mean it is.  I like it better too.

[nickgregory]

Records were 4.98 and 5.98 "back in the day" and went up in price over the years.  I listened to vinyl for 30 years and do not miss it.  No clicks, pops, rumble, wow, flutter, degrading sound quality, deteriorating highs toward the center and so on.  No, CD's are a huge jump forward.  You may like the analog sound, but it is not as accurate even if it is more sweet sounding.  Early CD's were not all that good as they were processed the way LP's were and it did not work well.  They had a good run until the labels got into serious compression.  I believe this is more a pop thing than classical and jazz.  YMMV     

The pops & clicks are easliy fixed by proper cleaning techniques. Quite frankly I have NEVER heard a CD, DVD or SACD that can hold a candle to a 30 year old record. I put my money where my mouth is & have invested most of my system money into analog reproduction & software. I have no regrets but to each his own 

the other thing I have noticed is vinyl tends to image better than its CD counterpart.  The album that really blew me away (when compared to the CD) was the unforgettable fire...CD was a little flat and lifeless, but the vinyl is very deep sounding, much bigger soundstage. 

I am guessing the biggest thing is CD can sound as good as vinyl, but it takes alot more $$$$ to build up a digi front end to do so, vs, significantly lesser dollars for analog...

[carlbeck]

I still don't agree with CD sounding as good. My last digital front end was worth about 4k, a very good digital front end IMO, it sounded very good. My $1000 analog rig blew it away. The reality of it is that analog just sounds "right", it is music reproduction in it's most natural form, it works because it is real.

[nickgregory]

I still don't agree with CD sounding as good. My last digital front end was worth about 4k, a very good digital front end IMO, it sounded very good. My $1000 analog rig blew it away. The reality of it is that analog just sounds "right", it is music reproduction in it's most natural form, it works because it is real.

good info.  I havent delved to nearly that expense in a digi front end, so it is goog to hear experiences in trying

the other thing that Chris Sheppard has brought up a bunch is the availability of titles...especially when you get into Jazz, just isnt available on CD...sure the popular stuff made its way to be cut on CD, but there is quality stuff out there that just never has...

[som]

To me, vinyl just flat out sounds more musical. I don't even know what that "means", I just know it when I hear it. I don't need to analyze it to know that my ears prefer it. And the minor imperfections do not detract from that.

It    just    sounds    like    music.

[cshepherd]

We outfitted an old Pioneer turntable ($25 at a garage sale) with a spare cart last night and took it over to a friend's house.  We didn't do any direct comparisons to his $2500 cd player, but nobody was inspired to.  We all thought it was the best our friend's system had sounded. 

Chris

[Nick's Picks]

ouch

[som]

Another thing I like about records is that the medium just kinda *makes sense* in a simplistic, mechanical kind of way:

I scratch a record, I can *see* what is causing the pop. I can clean off little specks stuck in the grooves. Stuff like that.

A CD starts to go haywire and I have *no idea* what the problem is, and usually no way to fix or improve it. CDs are rude in that way.



EDIT: I have to say, though, that I don't hate CDs. Great for the car, great medium for trading & collecting live shows, and, yes, I'll even play them in the main living room system (one CD to about 10 records)!

[nickgregory]

I found a local record store yesterday that mostly sells records online (www.recordfinders.com) that has just about everything you can think of, all for $2 each. I got The Who Quadrophenia album with full covers, very good condition for $2. I couldn't believe what I was finding. Led Zeppelin Physical Graffitti (both LPs), $2. Van Halen discs, $2. I met the owner and he showed me the wharehouse of backstock he has. He has estimated well over 4 million records and trust me, I've seen it and I fully believe him. Some are in fair all the way to mint condition. Online, he sells everything for various prices. For the lucky who can get here, everything is $2. I walked away with 15 LPs yesterday, I don't think I'll get off as easily today!

I was passing through on the way back from a week in philly today and called and figured out how to get there....left with 26 records..all for $2 a piece...freaking great...got some great hair metal, ratt, motley crue, a few jimmy buffet, some stevie ray vaughn, johnny cash (finally got a good copy of folsom prison!), yes..just some great stuff...and at the prices he is at, it may be worth the roadtrip from raleigh on occassion!

[bkirby]

I found a local record store yesterday that mostly sells records online (www.recordfinders.com) that has just about everything you can think of, all for $2 each. I got The Who Quadrophenia album with full covers, very good condition for $2. I couldn't believe what I was finding. Led Zeppelin Physical Graffitti (both LPs), $2. Van Halen discs, $2. I met the owner and he showed me the wharehouse of backstock he has. He has estimated well over 4 million records and trust me, I've seen it and I fully believe him. Some are in fair all the way to mint condition. Online, he sells everything for various prices. For the lucky who can get here, everything is $2. I walked away with 15 LPs yesterday, I don't think I'll get off as easily today!

I was passing through on the way back from a week in philly today and called and figured out how to get there....left with 26 records..all for $2 a piece...freaking great...got some great hair metal, ratt, motley crue, a few jimmy buffet, some stevie ray vaughn, johnny cash (finally got a good copy of folsom prison!), yes..just some great stuff...and at the prices he is at, it may be worth the roadtrip from raleigh on occassion!

Nick, sounds great. That place is excellent and the owner (forget his name) is really nice. I have already purchased over 60 LPs from him and the majority of them are in excellent shape. Let me know next time you are in town. +T...

[George]

I found a local record store yesterday that mostly sells records online (www.recordfinders.com) that has just about everything you can think of, all for $2 each. I got The Who Quadrophenia album with full covers, very good condition for $2. I couldn't believe what I was finding. Led Zeppelin Physical Graffitti (both LPs), $2. Van Halen discs, $2. I met the owner and he showed me the wharehouse of backstock he has. He has estimated well over 4 million records and trust me, I've seen it and I fully believe him. Some are in fair all the way to mint condition. Online, he sells everything for various prices. For the lucky who can get here, everything is $2. I walked away with 15 LPs yesterday, I don't think I'll get off as easily today!

I was passing through on the way back from a week in philly today and called and figured out how to get there....left with 26 records..all for $2 a piece...freaking great...got some great hair metal, ratt, motley crue, a few jimmy buffet, some stevie ray vaughn, johnny cash (finally got a good copy of folsom prison!), yes..just some great stuff...and at the prices he is at, it may be worth the roadtrip from raleigh on occassion!

damn!  You guys are making me itch to buy some vinyl now! 

My fiancee is working this saturday...you know I will be hunting for some good deals in the village.   

[nickgregory]

I found a local record store yesterday that mostly sells records online (www.recordfinders.com) that has just about everything you can think of, all for $2 each. I got The Who Quadrophenia album with full covers, very good condition for $2. I couldn't believe what I was finding. Led Zeppelin Physical Graffitti (both LPs), $2. Van Halen discs, $2. I met the owner and he showed me the wharehouse of backstock he has. He has estimated well over 4 million records and trust me, I've seen it and I fully believe him. Some are in fair all the way to mint condition. Online, he sells everything for various prices. For the lucky who can get here, everything is $2. I walked away with 15 LPs yesterday, I don't think I'll get off as easily today!

I was passing through on the way back from a week in philly today and called and figured out how to get there....left with 26 records..all for $2 a piece...freaking great...got some great hair metal, ratt, motley crue, a few jimmy buffet, some stevie ray vaughn, johnny cash (finally got a good copy of folsom prison!), yes..just some great stuff...and at the prices he is at, it may be worth the roadtrip from raleigh on occassion!

Nick, sounds great. That place is excellent and the owner (forget his name) is really nice. I have already purchased over 60 LPs from him and the majority of them are in excellent shape. Let me know next time you are in town. +T...

definitely...next time I come up it will be a day trip and I will leave the wife at home (she got bored quickly), and we can link up!