Topic: mastering for vinyl?

[yousef]

Does anyone have any experience of (or insight into) any differences one might need to take into account when preparing recordings to be pressed to vinyl as opposed to being burned to CD?

I really don't know anything about this at all, but I seem to remember reading that Springsteen's home-recorded Nebraska LP nearly became a cassette-only release because of problems encountered during mastering.

This is only a very preliminary (and possibly pre-emptive) enquiry but it's looking like some of my recordings may get some form of commercial release and I'm hoping that that might involve a slab of lovely, lovely black vinyl...

[yousef]

Cheers Moke - looks like interesting viewing...

I found soundonsound.com's advice quite illuminating:

Despite what you may have heard, mastering for vinyl is the easiest type of mastering you can do, as it involves only two steps:
 
-Find a mastering engineer who has mastered a ton of recordings for release on vinyl.

-Present your final mixes to that person and say "Here, you do it."

Hmm....

[DeepCreatures]

where is that string of 50 different laughing smilies?  that cracked me up!

peace,
ts

[Tim]

Cheers Moke - looks like interesting viewing...

I found soundonsound.com's advice quite illuminating:

Despite what you may have heard, mastering for vinyl is the easiest type of mastering you can do, as it involves only two steps:
 
-Find a mastering engineer who has mastered a ton of recordings for release on vinyl.

-Present your final mixes to that person and say "Here, you do it."

Hmm....

this was going to be my advice

you are essentially just doing the engineering/tracking. I'd bet that if you then took those masters to a mastering engineer with experience working for vinyl he/she could make it work.

there are some physical limitations as to how much info can be in a record groove without causing mechanical issues with the needle but I know enough to know that I should just stop talking and not try to go any further

good luck

[DSatz]

yousef, I'm old enough to have recorded specifically for release on LP, back before CDs existed. It's certainly advisable to engage an experienced LP mastering engineer. They understand the limits of vinyl and of the record-playing equipment people use, and they help you to get the best sound you can get within those limits.

The main issue is that too much of either horizontal or vertical modulation causes problems: excessive horizontal modulation forces the groove pitch to be set so wide that the record can't hold very much music. Too much vertical modulation causes the needle to "skip" during playback. Normally the pitch isn't so much of an issue because you don't expect to put an hour at very high volume on each side of a record. But a limit has to be placed on the vertical modulation.

The degree of vertical modulation depends on the instantaneous difference between the left and right channel signals, particularly at low frequencies where RIAA equalization requires a large boost. One way to reduce vertical modulation if there's strong low-frequency content in the music is to record with closely-spaced or even coincident directional microphones (or M/S) rather than using spaced omnis or the like. That keeps the difference between channels small at the lowest frequencies, though at the cost of some spaciousness in the recording.

Otherwise what many mastering engineers do is literally to put a limiter on the signals going to the amplifier that drives the vertical deflection coils of the cutterhead. It can do funny things to the stereo image but it keeps the record from skipping. Back in the day, distributors always hated dealing with returns due to records that skipped.

Phono cartridges are supposed to track the groove at a 45/45 angle but if you look at the lateral and vertical aspects of the groove it's just like an M/S matrixed version of the original L and R channels; the horizontal modulation = L + R (which is why stereo LPs can be played on a mono record player) while the vertical modulation = L - R (which is why mono records have a quieter background if you sum the channels--it cancels out the noise in the otherwise empty L - R channel).

Does that make sense or did I misunderstand your question?

--best regards

[bugg100]

There is a vinyl mastering lathe here in Memphis, run by the original engineer that did Stax, Hi & Ardent releases. L.Nix & son are loosely affiliated with Ardent as they lease space drom the Studio but are open for hire.  Check Google and if no luck I'll check for contact info after work.

Joe

[itook2much]

Thanks for the info, DSatz.  I remember reading a bit about it in an article relating to Electric Ladyland, where Eddie Kramer stated that Hendrix's original mix would've had the needle jumping like crazy, and Eddie had the unenviable position of telling Jimi it wasn't gonna happen.

[sunjan]

The main issue is that too much of either horizontal or vertical modulation causes problems: excessive horizontal modulation forces the groove pitch to be set so wide that the record can't hold very much music. Too much vertical modulation causes the needle to "skip" during playback. Normally the pitch isn't so much of an issue because you don't expect to put an hour at very high volume on each side of a record. But a limit has to be placed on the vertical modulation.

Yep, Dsatz explains it very well.
I was discussing this with old Swedish bluesman Anders F Rönnblom (www.andersf.com), who released and produced a bunch of LPs in the 70's.
The golden rule was to always put the slow songs as the first tracks on each side, and keep the heavy rock for the innermost tracks.
Why? Because the louder/heavier songs equals deeper grooves, which prevents the needle from skating. And since the skating force is stronger further in towards the center, placing the deeper grooves there lets you squeeze the grooves tighter = you can fit in more minutes of music while preserving sound quality and needle performance!

//Jan

[Tim]

thanks DSatz. I knew there were limitations inherent in the mechanics of a TT/arm/needle but, as usual, you cleared up the specifics.

[yousef]

+Ts all round - thanks for all the advice and insight - looks like this could be an expensive (but fascinating) business...

[boojum]

You also want to keep the high on the outer edge where there is more room for them.  At the center they get squeezed and info can be lost, or the needle will skip.  Ah, the days of LP's. 

[jeromejello]

The main issue is that too much of either horizontal or vertical modulation causes problems: excessive horizontal modulation forces the groove pitch to be set so wide that the record can't hold very much music. Too much vertical modulation causes the needle to "skip" during playback. Normally the pitch isn't so much of an issue because you don't expect to put an hour at very high volume on each side of a record. But a limit has to be placed on the vertical modulation.

Yep, Dsatz explains it very well.
I was discussing this with old Swedish bluesman Anders F Rönnblom (www.andersf.com), who released and produced a bunch of LPs in the 70's.
The golden rule was to always put the slow songs as the first tracks on each side, and keep the heavy rock for the innermost tracks.
Why? Because the louder/heavier songs equals deeper grooves, which prevents the needle from skating. And since the skating force is stronger further in towards the center, placing the deeper grooves there lets you squeeze the grooves tighter = you can fit in more minutes of music while preserving sound quality and needle performance!

//Jan

jan that is some very good info... thanks!  +t