Topic: I may try my first SBD Matrix w/UA-5 tomorrow...

[herrmann2burn]

Any Advice?
Im gonna be running the SBD into iether the 1/4 inch or RCA's in the Back, and my mics infront.  I know the Soundguy, so he has no problem adjusting the Output of the SBD for me from the Board.
What Ratio of the SBD/Mics should i try? 50/50?
How sensitive is the input knob on the back of the UA-5?
Anything else?

thanks,
Rhys

[jpschust]

well it depends on what you want- dont go 50/50 though.  if you think the sbd is gonna be really nice then go 70 on the sbd and 30 on the mics, the general rule of thumb, from my experience, is more board, less mics, but thats only if the board is good.

[herrmann2burn]

well it depends on what you want- dont go 50/50 though.  if you think the sbd is gonna be really nice then go 70 on the sbd and 30 on the mics, the general rule of thumb, from my experience, is more board, less mics, but thats only if the board is good.

Thanks JP for the info.  Id rather have more of the Board and alittle of the Mics, so ill try to 70/30.
Will the -3 LED Light blink for the Combined signal? Or still only for the XLR Input?

Also, I usually run 24/48...will i still be able to do this since im using the Rear Inputs?  I assume yes, but i dont want to make an ASS out of U and ME  

[jpschust]

i dont know, have only run a ua-5 one time in my life and never with both ins

[flask]

I agree, I've made some great taped with a 70/30 aud/sbd mix. However, I've also made some equally great taped with a 30/70 mix. A lot of times I will base the mix on how loud the crowd is. If it's a quiet crowd and I'm in the sweet spot, 30/70 (gave or take a few) can sound mighty nice.

Don't forget about the delay factor between what your mics are picking up and what the sbd is giving you. If your far enough back with your mics, you'll need to start putting some delay on the sbd feed.

Alec

[herrmann2burn]

I agree, I've made some great taped with a 70/30 aud/sbd mix. However, I've also made some equally great taped with a 30/70 mix. A lot of times I will base the mix on how loud the crowd is. If it's a quiet crowd and I'm in the sweet spot, 30/70 (gave or take a few) can sound mighty nice.

Don't forget about the delay factor between what your mics are picking up and what the sbd is giving you. If your far enough back with your mics, you'll need to start putting some delay on the sbd feed.

Alec

Oh yeah, what is the distance/delay ratio?  I plan on setting up my mics very close to the SBD, becuase usually the Crowd can get pretty rowdy.  Hopefully the Board will be somewhat in the center...ive never been to this venue before.  If i need a delay, can i have the soundman put it on for the output of the SBD?  
Another question...i record in 2 channels with Soundforge...this UA-5 will just mix the 2 inputs into 2 channels, right?  I dont need a 4 track program, right?

[Tim]

you're going to need your own delay.

[herrmann2burn]

you're going to need your own delay.

Ok, so what is the Maximum distance i can be from the Sound Source without having to add Delay?
 

[sexymexi]

the 1/4 spots on the back of a ua-5 are outputs. mine is sitting here on my desk for transfers, and its says they are outputs.  but i've ran matrix's with it, no problems for the most part.  i ran rca's in and adjusted as neccesary from them, then ran my mics, no delay needed, but i was running sound and whatnot, and i did my best to guys the delay with the room, and put my mics in the right place i guess, cause ther isn't any that i know of.  

but the mix i made was like 60% sbd, 40 mics, and it was too SBD sounding, the only good thing was the stereo mix i ran on the board.  i'd actually run the other way, 60%+ mics, and 40 or less sbd.  it might be cause i like aud recordings.. but yea, some sbd's are nice, but the overall blend is my favorite.  i'd say try it, and see what you like, try running 50/50 and make and assumption for next time what needs more..  its just hard to run it right like that.  u almost need 2 separate checks of each individual signal.  from mics/sbd.  good luck, hope it works out. peace.

matt

[Brian]

ok, there are no 1/4'' inputs on the back of the ua5. there are only coax, optical, and rca inputs on the back so unless the venue has an AD with a spare digi outt you will need to run the board feed into the rca inputs.
now if your ua5's preamps are stock, you can run 1/4" on the inputs in the front as they are designed for both xlr(loZ) and 1/4"(hiZ).  if the pre's have been oade modded then the 1/4" inputs on the front have been disabled. the problem is, if you go this route, then you will need some other mixer for xlr inputs from the mics, or xlr>rca transfromers.

So i recomend going mics, xlr in the front, and SBD, rca in the back.  How you adjust the percentages depends, to me, on the sound of the room and where you are located.  if i am in a good sounding room and have long enough cables to run the board feed to the sweet spot, then, like flask said, i put more audience into the mix(unless crowd is nuts). if i'm off center and it sounds just ok by the board, where i'm set up, then i go 50/50.  if it sounds like shit where my mics are, then mostly board into the mix. so "be the judge" when you get there.

The delay, IMHO, can start to be slightly noticeable at distances past ~50+ft. others may have different opinions since we are talking milliseconds of delay here. the more board mix you have in the mix, the less audible the delay will be. I think the delay is most important for the people gonig for a 50/50 matrix where there mics are far away(think big bands' archivists).  you will most likely be fine without a delay.

yikes that was long; hope my small diatribe helped! sounds like you'll be fine. there are definitely some board members on here who own and/or have used delay units in the field that can definitely provide better info for you on that topic. good luck using the ua5 for matrixing. once you get the level adjusting down you will be making some sick tapes!

peace,
Brian

[herrmann2burn]

Thanks guys.  Ill let you know how it turns out.
~Rhys

[joemango]

hey Rhys!


Where are you going to be taping?

[cleantone]

as for the delay. It verys even with different frequencies. Your best be it to have your mics onstage to avoid delay. Use the stage snake to send your mics to the board and into your UA-5. There is no MATH for making a matrix. Listen to make your judgment. Don't think about ratios and percentages.

If your gonan have you mics in the crowd you will get different amounts of delay. It only gets VERY obvious at a good distance.

[jpschust]

cleantone, there is math for the matrix, however its a pain- it varies with temperature and distance from the stage- i think 15ft per ms at  65-70 degrees or something like that- i totally forget.

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

Yeah, I've run my UA5 matrix several times.  You will have to experiment with your input levels both back and front to get a good even mix.  Its tough sometimes, you get home and there's too much AUD (happened to me), or too much SBD (again, its happened), or echo from delay (too far back - about 50ft.).

Recently I've switched to XLR out from my local bars SBD and it goes into the RCAs on the back (2x XLR>RCA cables) and ths signal is much hotter than the RCA out from the SBD.  The last MAT I ran (which came out great), was RCA in at 9am, and the mic inputs a 1pm.

I have no idea what that mean percentage wise and whatnot, but that's where the mark on the dial points, approximately, if you imagine the dials as clocks...

Anyways, I'm doing it again tonight, and find the best bet is to guess a good SBD level before you start, and then bring the mic up until you hear them.  I approx with the PA music/crowd noise before the show thru headphones.  Once the show starts, its all a matter of feel and guesswork, I'd say...  Using a pair of amplified headphones helps a little, but at a loud show with loud crowd...

As for the light, I find that it starts to blink before my Nomad overloads/clips, so I'm not worried about the ocassional flash... At it is a combo of both inputs...  Its metering the output...

And you should be able to go 24/48 running matrix...

Good luck and B&P the set if it comes out good!!!  I'll do the same with my tapes from tonight's show!

Terry

[dklein]

cleantone, there is math for the matrix, however its a pain- it varies with temperature and distance from the stage- i think 15ft per ms at  65-70 degrees or something like that- i totally forget.

There is definitely math.  The impact of temperature and humidity is quite insignificant for the distances we're talking about.

In my opinion, you can get away without delay up to 20-25 ft.  After that, I'd say do a post-mix (you need 2 recorders) or just choose one source.

-edit-  I guess you want the math.  1ms per foot is a good rule of thumb.  For more precise calculations, go here http://www.measure.demon.co.uk/Acoustics_Software/speed.html

[cleantone]

cleantone, there is math for the matrix, however its a pain- it varies with temperature and distance from the stage- i think 15ft per ms at  65-70 degrees or something like that- i totally forget.

I meant math for the mix between aud and board. Obviously there is delay math. I'm always wondering why people talk about percentages when mixing thier sources. I just use my ears...

[timP]

well rhys, how was Clutch?
and how did the matrix go?

[drumminj]

Are most people here running UA-5 into a JB3?  That's what I've been running, and have made a few matrixes this way.

What kind of headphones are y'all using to monitor the mix?  I really need to get a pair of etymotics or something, as regular cans just don't do a good enough job blocking out the sound in the house. It's very disappointing to get home and listen to the tape and realize the mix was off and doesn't sound as good as it could.  I usually try to run about 70/30 or 80/20.

The biggest problem I see with running a matrix using the UA-5 is that, once you get the mix set the way you want it, there's no way to adjust a "master volume" that doesn't affect your mix.  I try my hardest not to use any gain on the JB3, but that's just impossible in this situation.  How are you all dealing with this???

[Scuba Jeremy]

You've just got to play with it. It works out best when there is an opening band that you can use as a guinea pig. Unfortunately, the next show I'm looking to tape this way, the opening band is more important to me than the headliner! But I've never had a problem finding the mix in the first ten or fifteen seconds.

[herrmann2burn]

Well, my first ever attempt at the SBD/Mic UA-5 Matrix was a complete Success!
I ran XLR>RCA to the back of the UA-5pmod and my AKG393's in the front.  I had the SBD signal up to about -8 and then i topped it off with the Mic signal...i guess that's about 70/30 or 80/20.  It definately brightens up a straight SBD Feed.  
I was able to put my Stand Behind the SBD Barricade, infront of the SBD Left Center.    I ran it at about 8' ORTF LCFOB.
No concerns about the stand all night!
I ran all of the cables to the side of the Barricade, and myself and 3 other tapers(1 taper-Jeff S. ran a straight SBD feed, and the other 2-Dave[silentmark's buddy] and Kevin[KKaye]patched from me) guarded our gear(which i was concerned about because for the Matrix i had to run the UA-5 and LT outside of the Rackgear) and no incidents what so ever.  :grouphug:
First time i was ever at this venue, and it was really nice...huge; great sound system; lots of Bars.  

Clutch played one of the Top 5 shows ive seen.
They played a high energy amazing setlist, and were tight as could be.
Great show and great recording.
Thanks to everyone who responded in this thread, i really appreciate all of the advice.
I also want to thank Lee Brintnall, who is Clutch's Sound Engineer, who always hooks me up with the SBD Patches.


As soon as im finished with the transfer, Im gonna throw it up on a BT, but if anyone wants a copy Snail Mail style, let me know.
Here's the source info:
Clutch
2-13-04
Starland Ballroom
Sayreville, NJ
SBD Matrix: (ORTF,LCFOB)AKG393's>UA-5pmod>24/48(SF5.0)Toshiba Portege 3480>
16/44(SF6.0)>CDWave>Flac>Nero
Captured Live & Domesticated by Rhys Herrmann
1 Disc

Total Time-79:53:45

D1
01.Slowhole
02.John Wilkes Booth
03.Monster Trucks
04.Rats
05.Peterbuilt
06.Promoter
07.Red Horse*
08.Elephant Riders*
09.Soapmakers*>jam*>drums
10.Willie Nelson
11.Curandera
12.PRF
13.Animal Farm
14.Marcus
15.Texan**
16.Impetus
17.Crowd
encore:
18.I
19.II
20.Passive Restraints

*w/ Neil on Guitar
**w/Bill from Mastadon on Guitar

 :devilrock: :headbang: :devilrock:

[Scuba Jeremy]

Congrats! Here's a +T coming your way!

EDIT: Ooh, sorry to bump you off of 69 man.

[cpclark]

just to ask a couple of questions and clear up a couple of things with a ua-5 matrix.  delay will start to affect the mix when going past 25 ft and it is 1ms per foot.  ive been doing a matrix for my band and running my mics on stage , since we do not mic the bass and drums in most of the places we play these days.  so it would be okay to run the mics about 10 ft from the stage without problems, i always thought the delay would screw up the sync when not very far from stage.  just trying to clear up some of the questions ive had in doing this.  also , is it possible to run the ua-5 at 24/48, i thought the switch on the front only allowed for 24/96. btw this is a stock, unmodified ua-5, and what would i do to make it 24/48. thanks for you time fellas.
-chris

[dklein]

Everything you've said is ok.  To get 24/48, leave the front set at 48 and turn the rear adv switch on.  Then install and use the advanced driver (on the disc that came with the UA-5).  Set your software to 24/48 also.

If you don't start with the switch on, you have to power cycle the UA-5 for it to take effect.  You can think of that switch as the '24 bit switch'.

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

+T on your first successful Matrix!!!

I'd love to get in on that snail mail B&P - some of us aren't high-speed yet!

I'll PM you here in a sec to see if I can get in on this!

Terry Watts
http://db.etree.org/twatts

[cpclark]

thanks for the clarification dklein, ill soon be in the 24bit realm