Author Topic: newbie with small budget, questions (Read 6737 times)

gazoombo · « **on:** July 05, 2007, 09:50:58 PM »

Hello. My name is Mike, and I would like to get in to taping. In the past few years I've grown to love the local music community here in Michigan, and I'd like to start taping the shows I attend. Unfortunately, I am a college student and have very limited funds to devote to this hobby. What I would like to hear are some opinions about the best way to get started on the cheap.

I figure I can use the roughly 200-300 dollars I had saved for Lollapalooza for getting started. I'm not sure when I'd next be able to make another investment into equipment, but it would be nice if whatever money I spend to get started isn't wasted (like if I replace it all with something better). I have a 60GB iPod Color that runs Rockbox. I'm not sure if that is of any use here.

Any and all input is appreciated.

eclark · « **Reply #1 on:** July 05, 2007, 10:52:17 PM »

wow, i didnt know the 60 gig ipods did rockbox. id like to see that in action. do you know if it records "lossless" formats such as WAV files? if so you might be in luck

edit to say welcome!

dean · « **Reply #2 on:** July 05, 2007, 11:01:22 PM »

Send a PM to Chris Church here at Church-Audio

Chris can give you all the info and good gear you need to get started at a just a bit over your stated budget. The gear will nearly hold its value and it's rock solid. He's a stand up guy, to boot.

nasarius · « **Reply #3 on:** July 05, 2007, 11:08:36 PM »

AFAIK, your iPod won't do you any good. It's unlikely they have an appropriate A/D circuit, regardless of the firmware you can install. You probably want to spend about $150 on an iRiver recorder.

If you're reasonably handy with a soldering iron, you can build yourself a pair of mics and a battery box for something like $25. See Linkwitz's schematics here, and search the forums for Chris Church's suggested 4.7K resistor mod. A modified pair of WM-61As sound surprisingly good, as long as you remember that they're omnis and position yourself accordingly.

If you're not that adventurous, Giant Squid sells something close to all that, very well-made, for about $90. I'm not aware of anyone else building the mics in that price range, and Darren knows what he's doing. There's also a cardioid package, which IMO is kinda crap. The sound samples on their website are accurate.

You might want to consider Sound Professionals, which sell a wide variety of packages, starting at probably a bit more than the Giant Squids. I can't comment on the quality of any of them, beyond what I've heard on others' recordings.

If you do want cardioids, you won't find much better than Church Audio. Getting the mics + preamp would probably stretch your budget a little, but maybe not too much.

Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B) · « **Reply #4 on:** July 05, 2007, 11:21:06 PM »

I don't believe the Rockbox firmware adds recording to an iPod (only to MP3 players that were designed to record). It basically, just improves all of the features of a variety of MP3 players. If it is only a player, it is doubtful it will have an A>D on it, so there is no way to make it into a digital recorder.

I'd say go with a set of small mics (Sound Pros, Giant Squids, or Church), and the iRiver H120 with the Rockbox as a recorder. If you have any extra funds I would add a battery box.

For shows with open taping, and other tapers, I would just patch. So make sure you get a variety of cables that will allow you to do that (RCA > Mini would be the most important). Also this gives you the option to record from the soundboard, if the band allows it, and the board will give you a good mix.

Have fun. I'm just warning you now, that you will be spending more money on this hobby. Probably thousands of dollars!!

gazoombo · « **Reply #5 on:** July 06, 2007, 12:54:52 PM »

Thanks everyone for the quick responses.

Regarding the iPod, it does apparently have an A>D, because I have used Rockbox to record some things (to WAV) through the headphones. (Talking very loudly into the headphones.) What I'm not sure of is the quality of the ADC. (Since I don't have any mics to test it with, just headphones) I've never heard of anyone using an iPod for any serious recording, but maybe it's worth a try?

So, I'm leaning toward getting an iRiver H120 from Ebay, and maybe the st-9000 and cardioid package from Church Audio. What do I need to know about using these mics? Do they need to be angled a certain way or placed a certain distance from the sound source?

dean · « **Reply #6 on:** July 06, 2007, 01:02:26 PM »

Quote from: gazoombo on July 06, 2007, 12:54:52 PM

So, I'm leaning toward getting an iRiver H120 from Ebay, and maybe the st-9000 and cardioid package from Church Audio. What do I need to know about using these mics? Do they need to be angled a certain way or placed a certain distance from the sound source?

You won't be disappointed. At least not for awhile. Then you'll get gear slutty and start spending $1000's of dollars, just like the rest of us suckers. So, welcome to the club!

Regarding "what do I need to know...angled...distance," etc., well, you've come to the right place. First of all, Chris Church will tell you a whole lot about how to handle that. Second, this website is entirely loaded with information on what you've queried. It'd be pointless for me or anyone to answer, because the answers (and there's hardly a single right answer) are all to be found right here. Start searching and reading - you'll have fun doing it! Make sure you search on cardioid mics for those answers, but be open to much, much more...

Church-Audio · « **Reply #7 on:** July 06, 2007, 01:05:45 PM »

Quote from: gazoombo on July 05, 2007, 09:50:58 PM

Hello. My name is Mike, and I would like to get in to taping. In the past few years I've grown to love the local music community here in Michigan, and I'd like to start taping the shows I attend. Unfortunately, I am a college student and have very limited funds to devote to this hobby. What I would like to hear are some opinions about the best way to get started on the cheap.

I figure I can use the roughly 200-300 dollars I had saved for Lollapalooza for getting started. I'm not sure when I'd next be able to make another investment into equipment, but it would be nice if whatever money I spend to get started isn't wasted (like if I replace it all with something better). I have a 60GB iPod Color that runs Rockbox. I'm not sure if that is of any use here.

Any and all input is appreciated.

I would sell the ipod and get a Iriver... H120 You will be a happy man.

gazoombo · « **Reply #8 on:** July 06, 2007, 03:55:09 PM »

I like to do things the hard way I guess. If I can save some money by getting my iPod to work, I'd like to try. For one, it's not really worth selling my iPod; I wouldn't get too much for it. Secondly, I like a good challenge.

There are two ways to record using the iPod that I have (60 GB 4G Color, aka iPod Photo). One way is to use the left channel of the headphone jack to record mono. "The iPod has a built in preamp and supplies bias power (1.5V) through the headphone jack so a preamp and powered mic are not necessary."
The other option is to use the stereo line-in input found on the dock connector. "Unlike the headphone jack, the dock does not provide a bias power or a preamp so if you choose to record through the dock, you need to make sure you have these."

http://ipodlinux.org/Recording

Podzilla 2, part of the iPod Linux project, has implemented both of these methods. It is able to record 16-bit-depth WAV files at sampling rates of 8, 32, 44.1, 88.2, and 96kHz. Rockbox may also have the same functionality, but the documentation is not as easy to sift through.

It looks like I can buy dock connectors here:
http://home.swipnet.se/ridax/connector.htm

If all this monkey business doesn't get me anywhere, I'll get an iriver.

OFOTD · « **Reply #9 on:** July 06, 2007, 04:20:59 PM »

Quote from: gazoombo on July 06, 2007, 03:55:09 PM

I like to do things the hard way I guess. If I can save some money by getting my iPod to work, I'd like to try. For one, it's not really worth selling my iPod; I wouldn't get too much for it. Secondly, I like a good challenge.

I think we'd all implore to to consider not using the ipod. I know money is a big factor but the time spent trying to fit a square peg into a round hole is worth waiting a little bit and saving a few more pennies. The suggestions that others have offered seem to fit into your expected budget especially with some of the components available on ebay or in our own yard sale.

Trying to get the ipod into a viable recorder with results that you'll want to spend the time listening back to has made many a new taper give the hobby up. Listen to some of the great suggestions already posted here for you, talk to Chris Church about the products he offers. Scour the yard sale here for good deals as they pop up all the time. The time that you save by not forcing an ipod to work will mean more time for you to enjoy the fruits of your labor as well as get out to many more shows.

Good luck and remember we're all here to help you and keep you in this wonderful hobby.

Digital Quality · « **Reply #10 on:** July 06, 2007, 04:35:40 PM »

Keep your iPod, use it for what's it's designed for (handing over money to Apple for low grade music downloads). You'll just wind up killing the battery faster if you actually get it to work.

Another workable option would be to put together a patching rig. Save money and get better recordings, figure out how this hobby works for a while and check out different equipment along the way.

tiberiusbkirk · « **Reply #11 on:** July 06, 2007, 04:51:23 PM »

You'll get a lot more for that Ipod than you'd think. People still go crazy over them.
Chris gave you some good advise right there

gazoombo · « **Reply #12 on:** July 06, 2007, 04:57:40 PM »

Quote from: Steam Powered on July 06, 2007, 04:35:40 PM

Keep your iPod, use it for what's it's designed for (handing over money to Apple for low grade music downloads). You'll just wind up killing the battery faster if you actually get it to work.

Point taken. I had nearly forgotten about the battery issue. Ok, I'll get my funds in order and buy some gear. The iriver really does sound nice.

OFOTD · « **Reply #13 on:** July 06, 2007, 05:00:56 PM »

Quote from: gazoombo on July 06, 2007, 04:57:40 PM

Point taken. I had nearly forgotten about the battery issue. Ok, I'll get my funds in order and buy some gear. The iriver really does sound nice.

Great! Remember that you can buy in pieces and don't have to blow the bank all at once. Look for a recorder first. Iriver, JB3 and many others are in the Yard Sale all the time at good prices. Many folks here can help you with support on them.

As I said before talk to Chris Church when you can he makes a great product that many people have raved about his mic systems being an incredible deal for the money.

EDIT TO ADD: A GREAT price on a JB3 in the yard sale right now. http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,86030.0/topicseen.html

Church-Audio · « **Reply #14 on:** July 06, 2007, 07:28:20 PM »

Quote from: OFOTD on July 06, 2007, 04:20:59 PM

Quote from: gazoombo on July 06, 2007, 03:55:09 PM
I like to do things the hard way I guess. If I can save some money by getting my iPod to work, I'd like to try. For one, it's not really worth selling my iPod; I wouldn't get too much for it. Secondly, I like a good challenge.

I think we'd all implore to to consider not using the ipod. I know money is a big factor but the time spent trying to fit a square peg into a round hole is worth waiting a little bit and saving a few more pennies. The suggestions that others have offered seem to fit into your expected budget especially with some of the components available on ebay or in our own yard sale.

Square peg into a round hole is exactly what your doing when you use an ipod for live recording there are many reasons why I agree with Dave here, number one where is the input gain control on the ipod?

Chris

heyitsmejess · « **Reply #15 on:** July 06, 2007, 09:43:53 PM »

Quote from: OFOTD on July 06, 2007, 05:00:56 PM

As I said before talk to Chris Church when you can he makes a great product that many people have raved about his mic systems being an incredible deal for the money.

im new to this myself. i was impressed enough with the sound of the church cards that i purchased the setup just today (and missed the great price of 149 buy a matter of an hour)

plus he has answered every question i have had, and been absolutly polite about it (im one of those constant question people).

bugg100 · « **Reply #16 on:** July 07, 2007, 06:26:00 AM »

Quote from: Church-Audio on July 06, 2007, 07:28:20 PM

Quote from: OFOTD on July 06, 2007, 04:20:59 PM
Quote from: gazoombo on July 06, 2007, 03:55:09 PM
I like to do things the hard way I guess. If I can save some money by getting my iPod to work, I'd like to try. For one, it's not really worth selling my iPod; I wouldn't get too much for it. Secondly, I like a good challenge.

I think we'd all implore to to consider not using the ipod.

Square peg into a round hole is exactly what your doing when you use an ipod for live recording there are many reasons why I agree with Dave here, number one where is the input gain control on the ipod?

Chris

Rockbox is where you will find your input gain on the ipod... Well documented on rockbox.org and in the online manual there. Find a complete ~~mic~~ LINE input through the dock connector here:

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/GT-ITALK-PRO

On sale for $19, built in mics, there for you to ignore, and a 3.5 mm connector. You will need mics that connect through a 3.5 mm connector as well as a pre-amp or at the least a batterybox.

Just remember that you said you like a challenge.... If you want to go the long way around, search for GreenMachine on google, as this is a simple walkthrough to build mic and batterybox ($30 for parts) mod those instructions with a mod here by Chris Church (4.7k mod in a recent thread about the GreenMachine article), IF you want to record loud source material. $19 for the dock interface and rockbox for free and then you start experimenting.

It would be more simple to buy a preamp and mic set from Church Audio here and the dock interface, forging new ground. Rockbox is new for this player and results are in no way understood YET. You still have the preamp/mic to use on a different recorder if you can't get good results from the ipod.

I use a iRiver h320 and have h140 in shipping. Only the addition of rockbox make them worthy of use for recording..... Are the ipod ports of rockbox making it worthy? Want to be the one who finds out?

Report your findings here good or bad, and ask questions when you need help. But don't give up until you tried your ipod first.

Joe

bugg100 · « **Reply #17 on:** July 07, 2007, 06:34:15 AM »

Quote from: gazoombo on July 06, 2007, 04:57:40 PM

Point taken. I had nearly forgotten about the battery issue. Ok, I'll get my funds in order and buy some gear. The iriver really does sound nice.
[/quote]

ALL li-ion baterries die and are all currently are on a downward spiral [cue NIN]. If you get an iRiver you will have to replace the battery very soon. just like you MIGHT have to replace your ipod battery.

How do I know? Want to hear several 3 minute snippets of my only Tom Waits show? New battery would make the last sentence read differently.....

gazoombo · « **Reply #18 on:** July 07, 2007, 03:21:58 PM »

Quote from: bugg100 on July 07, 2007, 06:26:00 AM

Rockbox is where you will find your input gain on the ipod... Well documented on rockbox.org and in the online manual there. Find a complete ~~mic~~ LINE input through the dock connector here:

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/GT-ITALK-PRO

On sale for $19, built in mics, there for you to ignore, and a 3.5 mm connector. You will need mics that connect through a 3.5 mm connector as well as a pre-amp or at the least a batterybox.

Just remember that you said you like a challenge.... If you want to go the long way around, search for GreenMachine on google, as this is a simple walkthrough to build mic and batterybox ($30 for parts) mod those instructions with a mod here by Chris Church (4.7k mod in a recent thread about the GreenMachine article), IF you want to record loud source material. $19 for the dock interface and rockbox for free and then you start experimenting.

It would be more simple to buy a preamp and mic set from Church Audio here and the dock interface, forging new ground. Rockbox is new for this player and results are in no way understood YET. You still have the preamp/mic to use on a different recorder if you can't get good results from the ipod.

I use a iRiver h320 and have h140 in shipping. Only the addition of rockbox make them worthy of use for recording..... Are the ipod ports of rockbox making it worthy? Want to be the one who finds out?

Report your findings here good or bad, and ask questions when you need help. But don't give up until you tried your ipod first.

Joe

Thanks for the tip Joe. I've already placed a bid on a iHP-120 on Ebay, but for $20, it's worth experimenting with that dock connector too. Being the one who finds out whether the iPod can feasibly be used for taping is exactly what I'd like to do. At the same time, I agree that getting bad results could turn me off from trying other things, so I'm going to get the iRiver and try both ways. Now I just need to talk to Chris about a mic/pre setup.

Carrera2 · « **Reply #19 on:** July 07, 2007, 05:43:24 PM »

If you are heading off into the iRiver direction, you might consider some of the H110s and H115s being sold. It seems that the H120s and H140s are commanding a premium. I have a rockboxed H120 that I like and use a lot with professional grade mics. I also have an H115 as a backup recorder.

See: http://tinyurl.com/288yrc

edit: That 10 gig iRiver went for $52+15 in postage. Three month warranty plus option to purchase extended warranty from third party provider (like $5 for 2 years.) The iRivers I have bought from this guy have looked virtually new and come with new batteries installed.

No affiliation, BTW.

SmokinJoe · « **Reply #20 on:** July 07, 2007, 07:50:57 PM »

There is an older Nomad Jukebox in the yard sale for $60 shipped. I have a "similar" Jukebox, so I think my comments are correct. This one has 6Gb, which will hold 9 hours of recording. It sounds small, so it's enough for any normal concert. Most of us use 2Gb flash cards.

One advantage to the Jukebox is they run off 4 AA NiMH rechargable batteries. You could keep spare batteries in you pocket and swap at set break. The meters are decent, probably a little better than a JB3. The line in has a 10 step gain I believe. Run it low enough to avoid clipping, because clipping will sounds static-cy, and you don't want that. If in doubt, run a bit low, and boost it at home.

I prefer a Rockboxed iRiver, like most people here, but if you don't want to spend that much, my gut feeling is that this Jukebox a much better recorder than the ipod.

Edit.... that yardsale Jukebox was $60... now is bundled with some other stuff for $100. Not my sale... just an observation of a possible solution.

gazoombo · « **Reply #21 on:** July 08, 2007, 02:24:51 PM »

I have another question. This time regarding microphones. A lot of people have been recommending those Church Audio cards, but I read somewhere else on the boards that cards are better suited for high SPL recording. I'd like to be able to record quieter shows, like acoustic house shows, or shows with minimal amplification. I don't expect to use this rig for any really large shows (Phish et al.) What should I be looking for? I heard binaurals with bass rolloff recommended. How should the bass rolloff be set?

dean · « **Reply #22 on:** July 08, 2007, 03:20:10 PM »

Good point. It still depends on how you intend to set up at a given show, however. If most of the time you're going to be setting up on stage or at stage lip, go with the CSBs in this scenario. However, if your choices will be stage lip or in the audience, then I'd go with the Church cards.

So Church mics can still work for your purposes unless you'll actually be setting up on stage right next to the artists. But if not you'll generally have more range - if you want to record a high spl show, you can. Plus you'll get great results with them setting up at stage lip.

The beauty is, the choice you need to make is a really nice problem to have. Additionally, at the price range you've got and the price range of these mics, you should be able to pick up both pairs of mics within the next year or so. Then you can do some great comparisons of how the two types of mics differ in any given situation and you'll learn a whole bunch of recording fundamentals that will serve you well in the moment and down the road, when you're ready to unload a ton of cash on different mics, pre's, a/d's, higher bit rate recorders, etc...

I do a ton of on stage and stage lip recordings (prolly 60-70% of everything I record, actually), so once you've got your gear, if you're going to be in that situation, feel free to PM me for specific information. Glad to help.

Church-Audio · « **Reply #23 on:** July 09, 2007, 08:34:23 AM »

Quote from: gazoombo on July 08, 2007, 02:24:51 PM

I have another question. This time regarding microphones. A lot of people have been recommending those Church Audio cards, but I read somewhere else on the boards that cards are better suited for high SPL recording. I'd like to be able to record quieter shows, like acoustic house shows, or shows with minimal amplification. I don't expect to use this rig for any really large shows (Phish et al.) What should I be looking for? I heard binaurals with bass rolloff recommended. How should the bass rolloff be set?

Actually I have a new version of my 9100 for $199 - a new pair of three wire cards same mics but I now have the ability to turn the mod off for very quiet shows and turn my 4.7k mod on for loud shows this gives you an additional 12.5 db of gain + the 20db from my preamp thats 32.5db of gain + what ever your recorder has built in. The mics cost $130 because of the three wire mini xlr connectors.

Chris

gazoombo · « **Reply #24 on:** July 09, 2007, 12:32:31 PM »

Quote from: Church-Audio on July 09, 2007, 08:34:23 AM

Quote from: gazoombo on July 08, 2007, 02:24:51 PM
I have another question. This time regarding microphones. A lot of people have been recommending those Church Audio cards, but I read somewhere else on the boards that cards are better suited for high SPL recording. I'd like to be able to record quieter shows, like acoustic house shows, or shows with minimal amplification. I don't expect to use this rig for any really large shows (Phish et al.) What should I be looking for? I heard binaurals with bass rolloff recommended. How should the bass rolloff be set?

Actually I have a new version of my 9100 for $199 - a new pair of three wire cards same mics but I now have the ability to turn the mod off for very quiet shows and turn my 4.7k mod on for loud shows this gives you an additional 12.5 db of gain + the 20db from my preamp thats 32.5db of gain + what ever your recorder has built in. The mics cost $130 because of the three wire mini xlr connectors.

Chris

This sounds like exactly what I want, but I don't think I can afford it just yet. I think I'll have to go with the 9000 + cards package for now. I'll try to send payment today.

dean · « **Reply #25 on:** July 09, 2007, 12:51:57 PM »

Quote from: gazoombo on July 09, 2007, 12:32:31 PM

This sounds like exactly what I want, but I don't think I can afford it just yet. I think I'll have to go with the 9000 + cards package for now. I'll try to send payment today.

You'll have a lot more fun experimenting once you scratch up the dough for a second pair of mics. Chris' mics will treat you right in the meantime, to boot.

Welcome to the universe of taping, gazoombo. You're going to love it, and based on what you've posted so far, you're a natural to it. Have fun!

gazoombo · « **Reply #26 on:** July 09, 2007, 02:17:39 PM »

Thanks everyone for your helpful responses. I really feel welcomed here, and I look forward to some great taping experiences. In case anyone was wondering, paramnesiac is the one who referred me here after I asked him for some advice about getting started taping. I'm glad he did; what a great place!