Become a Site Supporter and Never see Ads again!

Author Topic: NEWB requesting advice/help for upcoming concert  (Read 5140 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline dimm0k

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 87
  • Gender: Male
NEWB requesting advice/help for upcoming concert
« on: October 04, 2007, 05:24:57 PM »
There's an upcoming Tegan & Sara concert coming up that my friend wanted to record and she sort of got me interested in this whole live recording thing... something I'm considering picking up as a hobby.  Searching the forums the reviews tend to steer away from using the iPod for recording, yet I'd like to give this a shot to give my iPod another use.  I have access to a MD players from two of my friends, but I'm not sure of the model until I speak with them later this week, so...

I'm looking for a stealth setup and it looks like I should possibly be aiming for a cardioid stereo mic.  I'll probably need a battery box so that I would have some versatility to use either the line out or mic in.  How do I know if I need a preamp?

Currently looking at Giant Squid Audio Lab cardioid powered stereo mic and the Church Audio st-9000 and cardioid package mentioned here http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,80054.0.html

Any suggestions on my planned setup?
« Last Edit: October 04, 2007, 10:04:32 PM by dimm0k »

Offline darktrain

  • Trade Count: (715)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2875
  • Gender: Male
  • Whats next?
Re: NEWB requesting advice/help for upcoming concert
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2007, 12:47:38 AM »
DO NOT USE AN IPOD, they are very unstable and crash a lot, in fact i can't recall ever listening to a show succesfully recorded with one. the md's would be far more reliable.

Offline boojum

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3629
  • Gender: Male
Re: NEWB requesting advice/help for upcoming concert
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2007, 02:36:43 AM »
I have an MD-N1 and an MD MZ-RH1.  Both have built-in pre-amps.  The RH1 is better.  Having a battery box will allow you to record higher SPL's (volume) without distortion.  Do not get a mic which require phantom power.  You should be looking for an electret mic which will run on 3 to 9 or so volts.  Have fun.
Nov schmoz kapop.

Offline dimm0k

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 87
  • Gender: Male
Re: NEWB requesting advice/help for upcoming concert
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2007, 04:12:04 PM »
I have an MD-N1 and an MD MZ-RH1.  Both have built-in pre-amps.  The RH1 is better.  Having a battery box will allow you to record higher SPL's (volume) without distortion.  Do not get a mic which require phantom power.  You should be looking for an electret mic which will run on 3 to 9 or so volts.  Have fun.

How do I know whether the MD player my friend has has a built-in pre-amp?  What exactly does the pre-amp do for me versus a battery box?  I'm looking at the Church Audio stereo cardioid mic and was wondering if this particular mic would fit the bill?  I've e-mailed, but have not heard a response from him yet.

Offline dimm0k

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 87
  • Gender: Male
Re: NEWB requesting advice/help for upcoming concert
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2007, 12:45:34 AM »
UPDATE: The model MD recorder I have is the MZ-R90.  Any thoughts on that?

Offline twatts (pants are so over-rated...)

  • <://PHiSH//><
  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 9941
  • Gender: Male
  • Lego made a Mini-Fig of me!
Re: NEWB requesting advice/help for upcoming concert
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2007, 01:08:57 AM »
UPDATE: The model MD recorder I have is the MZ-R90.  Any thoughts on that?

http://www.minidisc.org/mzr90_review.html

Should work just fine...

Terry
***Do you have PHISH, VIDA BLUE, JAZZ MANDOLIN PROJECT or any other Phish related DATs/Tapes/MDs that need to be transferred???  I can do them for you!!!***

I will return your DATs/Tapes/MDs.  I'll also provide Master FLAC files via DropBox.  PM me for details.

Sony PCM R500 > SPDIF > Tascam HD-P2
Nakamichi DR-3 > (Oade Advanced Concert Mod) Tascam HD-P2
Sony MDS-JE510 > Hosa ODL-276 > Tascam HD-P2

******

Offline bugg100

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1015
  • Gender: Male
Re: NEWB requesting advice/help for upcoming concert
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2007, 03:43:37 PM »
I like my Church Audio gear, lots!

That mini-disc, blanks, batteries, a cable to run between pre and MD, + the CA package = great starter kit.

One caveat, the Church gear is handmade to order.  Two weeks lead time minimum required.  Well worth the wait....

Joe

Offline carbine000

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 56
Re: NEWB requesting advice/help for upcoming concert
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2007, 11:43:16 PM »
Hey dont mean to jack your thread but I have alot of the same questions so thought this would be a good place to post.

I have a MZ-R700  http://www.minidisc.org/part_Sony_MZ-R700.html

and the Sony ECM-DS70P  http://www.amazon.com/Sony-ECM-DS70P-Electret-Condenser-Microphone/dp/B00006HOLL

So I have taped some shows and all have had various circumstances with various results. Nothing has come out perfect yet. I just learned that I can adjust the  volume of the mic input on the fly to get a better sound if there is too much distortion. But my question is: Do I need a preamp? It seems like if I can get the right mix of distance from the stack and mic volume that the show would come out decent. Then there is the bass input which I guess would alter that setup and I would have to adjust accordingly. Is there any advice you can offer to finding that perfect mix of distance from the stack/mic input/and bass level? Its been too hard to tell if the show is taping well until after the fact when I can say oh I should have done this or I should have done that.

Offline dimm0k

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 87
  • Gender: Male
Re: NEWB requesting advice/help for upcoming concert
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2007, 11:44:39 PM »
I'm aware of the two week wait mentioned somewhere in the forum, but I'm a little worried because CA has not replied to messages I've sent a few days ago... this was through eBay and through his e-mail address that was posted on this forum.

Offline gratefulphish

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1568
  • Gender: Male
  • Gone Tapin'
Re: NEWB requesting advice/help for upcoming concert
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2007, 01:37:07 AM »
Hey dont mean to jack your thread but I have alot of the same questions so thought this would be a good place to post.

I have a MZ-R700  http://www.minidisc.org/part_Sony_MZ-R700.html

and the Sony ECM-DS70P  http://www.amazon.com/Sony-ECM-DS70P-Electret-Condenser-Microphone/dp/B00006HOLL

So I have taped some shows and all have had various circumstances with various results. Nothing has come out perfect yet. I just learned that I can adjust the  volume of the mic input on the fly to get a better sound if there is too much distortion. But my question is: Do I need a preamp? It seems like if I can get the right mix of distance from the stack and mic volume that the show would come out decent. Then there is the bass input which I guess would alter that setup and I would have to adjust accordingly. Is there any advice you can offer to finding that perfect mix of distance from the stack/mic input/and bass level? Its been too hard to tell if the show is taping well until after the fact when I can say oh I should have done this or I should have done that.

You have a lot of questions here.  Yes, a preamp will almost always help.  Better electronics will allow you to deal with louder (higher SPL) shows, without distortion.   In general, if you have a decent preamp, you should be able to adjust the volume so that you do not need to be right in front of the stacks.  This can overload a lot of systems, it may be in stereo, in which case you are only getting one channel, and a lot of times, the subwoofers are also right there, which may be part of the problem with the bass overload it sounds like you may be experiencing.  You can also get either another mic, or certain preamps with a bass rolloff/high pass filter which will allow you to control some of the exrtreme low end.  When you decide what you are going to do as far as a set up, try going to a show where you can move around, and record several songs from each location (hopefully keeping notes of where you were).  Then when you get home, listen and decide which location sounded the best.  In general, we tapers prefer dead center, and somewhat back, so that you are in the "sweet spot" where the PA and the stage sound intersect.  Good luck and +T for finding your way here.  Read a lot, but don't be afraid to ask questions.
4 channel: Neumann TLM-170R>Segue Dogstar>SD 722   2 channel: Neumann TLM-170R>Segue Dogstar>Lunatec V3>SD 722
               Linked to Lunatec V3>MT 24/96                                     (Hi-Ho Silver Interconnects)     

Other gear: AKG C451Es, Tascam DA-P1, Sony D-8

Offline dimm0k

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 87
  • Gender: Male
Re: NEWB requesting advice/help for upcoming concert
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2007, 12:15:25 AM »
I'm currently looking at the preamps offered by Church Audio and was wondering if I would also need a battery box.  From what I've gathered a preamp is needed if I'm recording low level noises while a battery box is needed for the louder stuff like rock concerts.  Is this true?  How do I know what I need?

Offline bugg100

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1015
  • Gender: Male
Re: NEWB requesting advice/help for upcoming concert
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2007, 03:37:37 AM »
I'm currently looking at the preamps offered by Church Audio and was wondering if I would also need a battery box.  From what I've gathered a preamp is needed if I'm recording low level noises while a battery box is needed for the louder stuff like rock concerts.  Is this true?  How do I know what I need?

A preamp IS a box that provides plug-in power to your mics AND at some settings also boosts the signal.   A battery box ONLY provides plug-in power.  Either will help in loud situations equally, only the preamp helps in quiet..........

Offline dimm0k

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 87
  • Gender: Male
Re: NEWB requesting advice/help for upcoming concert
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2007, 01:19:48 PM »
A preamp IS a box that provides plug-in power to your mics AND at some settings also boosts the signal.   A battery box ONLY provides plug-in power.  Either will help in loud situations equally, only the preamp helps in quiet..........

Thanks for clearing things up on the preamp/battery box, as this will help me make my decision.  Now if only Church-Audio would give me a response!

Offline bugg100

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1015
  • Gender: Male
Re: NEWB requesting advice/help for upcoming concert
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2007, 03:09:51 PM »
Try him again, he has stated if no response it means he missed your message.  i would pm him here, you should be able now with more than 5 posts.

Good luck,
Joe

Offline dimm0k

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 87
  • Gender: Male
Re: NEWB requesting advice/help for upcoming concert
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2007, 04:32:47 PM »
Try him again, he has stated if no response it means he missed your message.  i would pm him here, you should be able now with more than 5 posts.

Good luck,
Joe

Thank you.  I actually sent him a PM last night and hopefully he'll respond tonight.  Time's a runnin' out :(

Offline landshark

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 311
  • Gender: Male
Re: NEWB requesting advice/help for upcoming concert
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2007, 04:41:33 PM »
Hey guys -

Here's one way to think about the whole battery box / preamp thing.

Battery box and mic power:

When you tape, you use a microphone to convert sound energy into electrical waves.  The mics you're using do this by creating a charged field that vibrates from the sound waves.  The lower the frequency, the larger (and more powerful) the sound wave.  Your microphone needs a low voltage power source to create the charged field - this is the "mic power" you hear about.  You can get that mic power from a.) a battery box, b.) an external preamp that provides mic power, or c.) your MD if it provides mic power.  Usually these mics aren't overly fussy about the exact voltage (unlike some true "phantom power" mics), so someting in the range of 5-9v will probably work.  The better the mic quality, the more picky it will be about getting the exact right voltage.

Preamp

Ok, so you have a mic that is taking in sound energy and converting it into electrical energy, now what?  Well, the strength of the sound energy coming in is going to vary quite a bit.  A rock concert can go from near silent to earsplitting drums in a couple seconds, and the resulting electrical energy produced by the mics will also vary significantly.  This variation in energy is called the dynamic range of a mic, and is measured in decibels, which is a difficult scale of measurement to learn (or at least it was for me!).  The important thing is that the mic is going to be putting out a pretty wide range of energy due to the changes in sound volume.  

Now, as much energy as that mic may be putting out, it is still pretty low compared to what the electircal circuits in the MD need to work with.  So, some amplification is needed.  This is the job of the microphone preamp.  Now, the MD has an internal microphone preamp, but it has "fixed gain".  This means that the amount by which the preamp is going to increase the signal (the gain) is fixed, at some set amount.  For example, it might be designed to take the signal from the mic and amplify it by 20x (I have no idea about the actual amount of gain, this is just an example).  The Sony designers didn't build the preamp with you in mind - they probably had some basic low SPL recording in mind, like students recording class notes and the like.  So, when you get into a high SPL environment, your mics put out a strong signal, which the MD preamp then further amplifies, so the signal that goes to the rest of the MD is too strong and overloads the circuit, causing distortion/clipping.  Not good.

In a situation where all you have is the fixed gain from the MD, your only option to adjust the signal strength is to position the mics in the recording venue in such a way that the actual sound hitting the mics is at the right level.  This may be difficult or impossible to do, particularly if you're up front close to the PA speakers.

External Preamp

This is where the external preamp really shines.  Instead of having to move yourself around the room to get to a point that is quiet enough that you're not clipping the MD, you can increase or decrease the amount of gain until the strongest signal coming out of the mic is being amplified to just the right level for the MD - it is the strongest the MD can take, but won't overlaod it.  This allows you to do a couple things:  

1.) you can get right up near the speakers - this is important because the closer you are to the speakers, the more you're going to be recording the band's performance and not all the other crap noise going on around you (fans cheering, clapping, talking, airconditioner hum, outside traffic, etc.).  I think everyone on the board will agree good positioning of the mics can make a $500 rig sound better than a $5,000 rig.  

2.) You can use a "better" preamp.  The MD is not designed primarily for recording, so to save some bucks Sony puts in lower quality preamps.  That being said, Sony usually has pretty damn good preamps compared to their competition (the pre's in my D8 DAT deck are awesome).  However, Chris Church's preamps use better components and I would argue have better sound.  Much better.

3.) You can cover a larger dynamic range

This one's tricky.  I can explain using an example, but realize the actual numbers are meaningless, they're just to help with the example.  Let's say you're taping and you have sound levels of 3, 10, 15 and 20 coming out of your mics.  Let's also say your MD has fixed gain of 10x, and can handle a maximum signal of 100.  In that situation, you're going to overload your MD when you hit the 15 and 20 sound levels (150 and 200 respectively).  The combination of mics and preamp can only accept sounds from 0 to 10 (a low dynamic range).  Now, let's look what happens if you use an external pre and use the line-in selection (completely bypassing the preamp).  If you set the preamp to amplify 5x, then your output is 15, 30, 75 and 100 - you can record the entire dynamic range without clipping!  Now, the combination of mic, preamp and MD can handle a dynamic range of 0 to 20 - you've doubled the dynamic range.  Ultimately, you want to amplify the soft sounds (the 3's and 10's) as much as possible, but without overloading when you hit the 15's and 20's.  

Regarding getting the right recording level:

I saw somewhere else on TS that hand claps at about 1-2 feet are like 100 dB, which is about the max sound level you'll be able to stand at a show (and 100 db will hurt - ears start bleeding at like 110/120 db...).  You can adjust the preamp so that when you clap in front of the mics, it's just below the point of clipping, and as a rough setting you shoudl be good to go.  You'll have to play around with it to get it right.  One thing to keep in mind - if in doubt, run your levels low.  You may lose some of the softer sounds in the low end noise hiss, but you can always amplify the remainder in post-production using Audacity or the like.  If you clip, on the other hand, there's really no way to recover the recording.  You may be able to remove some of the distortion caused by the occassional clip, but if there's a lot of it your recording's probably junked.

Anyway, I hope that helps, and welcome to the hobby.  Get your checkbook out, it's gonna be a bumpy ride!!!  <grin>

Good luck!

Mike

AKG 461's / 463's OR Senn MKH 8040's > MR1000 (Busman mod) or Shure FP24 (aka MixPre) > MR1 (open)
Coresounds Binaurals > CChurch 9100 > MR1 OR AKG CK1x/2x/3x > Deneke P20 > MR1 (low profile)

Offline carbine000

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 56
Re: NEWB requesting advice/help for upcoming concert
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2007, 10:26:06 PM »
Thank you. This helped immensely.

I think my next problem is figuring out whether the recording is coming out clearly during the show or determining what or if anything needs to be adjusted.

Offline trustthex

  • Trade Count: (4)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 583
  • Gender: Male
  • Trainwreckin' Fool
Re: NEWB requesting advice/help for upcoming concert
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2007, 10:37:01 PM »
i as well thank you for that somewhat lengthy explanation.  +t
Current Foolishness-
AT853c > 3-wire BB > LS10
AT853c > Tinybox > R-09

Other gear in my bag-
SP-CMC-1 (AT 829), ECM-717, Sharp MD-MS702
2x Teac ME-50 (C), AT ATR6250, SP-SPSB-2

Team TEXAS, Naiant, Jazz, Vinyl, moe.

-------
If you have any Brave Combo that needs transferred/uploaded, etc... PM me.

Offline carbine000

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 56
Re: NEWB requesting advice/help for upcoming concert
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2007, 12:17:57 AM »
Yes. +t.........if I can do it. LOL.

Offline dimm0k

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 87
  • Gender: Male
Re: NEWB requesting advice/help for upcoming concert
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2007, 12:33:26 PM »
landshark: thank you for such a descriptive reply!  Because I'm waiting on the mic and preamp to arrive, I'm sort of flying blind of the stuff you've mentioned.  I do have a pretty good idea of it all, however I have one question on finding the right recording level with a minidisc player.  I take it the levels on the preamp are referred to as gain?  Well how do I go about finding out if a particular level of sound is going to clip at a particular gain?  Is this something that's going to be displayed on the minidisc or is it something I'm going to find out after the recording has been done?

Offline attheshow

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 180
Re: NEWB requesting advice/help for upcoming concert
« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2007, 01:14:19 PM »
The minidisc has level meters. When you are in record+pause mode you can watch them. The to the right end of the meters you should see a spot marked 0db. If this lights up, you're levels are to high and you'll get clipping.
Mics: MM-HLSC-1, ECM-737, ECM-719
Recorders: R09, MZ-RH1, MZ-R70, MBP
BBox: Greenmachine DIY, CA-UBB (on the way!)

 

RSS | Mobile
Page created in 0.092 seconds with 46 queries.
© 2002-2024 Taperssection.com
Powered by SMF