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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #30 on: March 17, 2008, 04:42:15 PM »
I think what easyjim mentioned about goals gets to the heart of it.  I personally don't care as much about representing what happened that night as I do making the CD (or whatever) as enjoyable a listen as possible.

Same thing here.
I'm not a huge fan of the " the-room-as-it-was-that-night" recording approach. For one thing," as-it-was" for whom? My mics or my ears? I'll always give preference to my ears. My mics do not seat in my living room with a cold beer to listen to a recent recording. I do.
Minor adjustments with features like  Normalize ou a light EQ wouldn't alter anything. You're not adding anything that wasn't already there. It's just a matter of tonal balance.
But I'm just a newbie. I respect different opinions.  ;)

My attitude towards this is simple. If you really know what your doing and you have good reference monitors and you can make your recording sound better WHY NOT? Do what you can to make it more enjoyable for you and anyone that might want to listen to it. If recording engineers took the attitude of not fixing things.. Well every record out there would sound like a huge pile of shit. Why because very few guitar players for example ever crouch down to the same level as the speakers in the amps they use to hear that asstone... They stand up and hell it sounds good blowing past my knees it must sound good down there lol... But as far as the recordings I make to show people what my mics sound like.. I leave them as is unedited.. Why because some of you might not have the gear/skill I do to make a huge difference that I can make to just about any recording. And its not a true representation of my product. So if your not selling your mics... I think you should do what ever you have too to make your recordings sound better in the process you will learn the difference between 5k and 8k * frequencies * and hell that's not a bad thing.. I apologize to the people here that already know the difference :) hehe...

I learned how to do live sound not by leaving things as they are but my changing them. In the begginging most of the things I changed made it sound like ass.. After a while I leaned how to spin the knobs correctly. You always have undo in a recording that your editing.. I wish I had undo as a live engineer :)


Care for another take?  I'm a bit in both worlds, and I fully agree it's about the goals and the potential audience.

I find the challenges of recording unamplified music quite different from recording a FOH amplified concert.  My recordings of unamplified classical, jazz, bluegrass or whatever usually require little to no eq adjustment but have huge dynamic ranges that are the challenge.  When recording the challenge is noise at the quiet end while allowing enough headroom to capture the big dynamics.  On the playback side, my playback system can't handle those big dynamics easily.  I have to jump for the volume knob like Moke says.  These recordings would not work well at all on my friend's even more modest home stereos, ipods and car stereos.  That's just how it is, I can live with a larger dynamic range than they can.  There's the goal of the potential audience part.  But I haven't committed my recordings to that mastering adjustment yet.  More on that below.

I often eq my recordings of FOH amplified events (including amplified acoustic music) during playback and these often need little or no dynamic adjustment.  But this is a problem of an altogether different nature.  With the dynamic unamplified recordings, I think a super duper playback system could handle the levels and I wouldn't have to make adjustments, where the FOH amplified stuff needs eq to fix basic frequency problems that are not short comings in the playback chain.  Those eq adjustments can make a huge difference, but it takes a long time and alot of fine tweaking to get it just right - when it is right, there is no denying it's right. It's like night and day to whoever walks in the room.  Like Chris says I've learned alot in seriously listening and going through that process.  Some of the things I've learned are: It takes alot of time, concentration and dedication to do that properly.  Some recordings (and some recording deficiencies) seem to 'take' eq adjustments very well, others do not.  It's sometimes difficult to connect the 'mental idea' of what frequency band needs adjustment and what my ears are hearing.  It's very easy to make something sound different, it's quite difficult to make it sound better.  It's much too easy to make it sound horrible.

Done correctly, eq can make the recording sound more real, and much truer to being there.  I highly appreciate the 'purist' ideal and find a well done two mic Aud recording often sounds better because of that simplicity.  But that's not a 'true representation of the event' in any sense.  It is an illusion, sometimes a breathtakingly real one, but an illusion none the less.  If you can improve on your 2 mic purist recordings by selecting different mics with different responses, than that is essentially also manipulating the recording, just in a different way.  Which is truer?  Chris' note on representing the 'sound' of his mics is different, in that case it's the quality of the mic that is being listened for, not the 'true representation of the event'. A different goal.

I don't touch my original recordings, but I on occasion create eq'd versions. I only do that hesitantly though because I lack the tools to do it properly: a well trained brain, high quality neutral playback equipment and room, and quality hardware/software.  I know that any adjustments I make are adjusting for subjective things besides the objective sound of the recording.  Like it or not I'm also adjusting for my playback system and room so the adjustments that people tell me make it sound great and 'like I'm there' when they stop by my living room, may not translate to their car, ipod or stereo.  Most of them would not likely notice some resonance at say 85hz or at 7khz (and certainly couldn't identify the frequency if they did hear something amiss), but I would and I'd be upset to hear it that way.  In that case my 'mastering' wouldn't be much of an improvement, just a bastardization.

I haven't created dynamically modified versions yet.  The main reason is that I can turn the volume knob easier than setting the eq! The flip side is that my understanding of adjusting the dynamics is much less evolved than adjusting the eq.  I could set a volume envelope for loud applause and print that to the file like a recording of my volume knob adjustments, but I haven't learned enough to get good compressor or limiter settings that don't degrade the sound to my ears.  That ear knowledge is more difficult than learning effective eq for me.

Mastering engineers are highly specialized, have custom built rooms and loads of specialized, expensive gear, and good ones are paid handsomely for their work.  If anyone could do it by tweaking a few knobs, those guys would be out of business.  I recognize the potential for mastering, and the potential for me to screw it up at the same time.  I don't take that lightly, which is why I've hesitated for so long to get into it.  I also realize that even if I had the best skills and tools I'd still have to decide on which compromises to make. Once it's out there it's forever.

In the end it's all about compromising for the requirements, desires and expectations of the potential audience.  I agree with the poor assessments of many commercial releases and 'instant live' recordings though I've only heard a couple of them.  Those are compromised for the marketplace, squashed for car-ready dynamics, etc. 

But I'm a weirdo that thinks even Aud's with cardioid mics sound flat, squashed and closed in most of the time.  Blumlein, subcards or omnis sound more 'real' to me.  I've got my hands full working on getting the most out of the recording side so far, with little time to get to the post production dark side.

Appologies for all the words.






musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline lordbelial

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #31 on: March 17, 2008, 05:21:29 PM »
I found out that my recordings, when applied some mastering, sounded better for me.

I found this guide very very helpful: http://har-bal.com/mastering_process.php
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Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #32 on: March 17, 2008, 06:35:49 PM »
I think what easyjim mentioned about goals gets to the heart of it.  I personally don't care as much about representing what happened that night as I do making the CD (or whatever) as enjoyable a listen as possible.

Same thing here.
I'm not a huge fan of the " the-room-as-it-was-that-night" recording approach. For one thing," as-it-was" for whom? My mics or my ears? I'll always give preference to my ears. My mics do not seat in my living room with a cold beer to listen to a recent recording. I do.
Minor adjustments with features like  Normalize ou a light EQ wouldn't alter anything. You're not adding anything that wasn't already there. It's just a matter of tonal balance.
But I'm just a newbie. I respect different opinions.  ;)

My attitude towards this is simple. If you really know what your doing and you have good reference monitors and you can make your recording sound better WHY NOT? Do what you can to make it more enjoyable for you and anyone that might want to listen to it. If recording engineers took the attitude of not fixing things.. Well every record out there would sound like a huge pile of shit. Why because very few guitar players for example ever crouch down to the same level as the speakers in the amps they use to hear that asstone... They stand up and hell it sounds good blowing past my knees it must sound good down there lol... But as far as the recordings I make to show people what my mics sound like.. I leave them as is unedited.. Why because some of you might not have the gear/skill I do to make a huge difference that I can make to just about any recording. And its not a true representation of my product. So if your not selling your mics... I think you should do what ever you have too to make your recordings sound better in the process you will learn the difference between 5k and 8k * frequencies * and hell that's not a bad thing.. I apologize to the people here that already know the difference :) hehe...

I learned how to do live sound not by leaving things as they are but my changing them. In the begginging most of the things I changed made it sound like ass.. After a while I leaned how to spin the knobs correctly. You always have undo in a recording that your editing.. I wish I had undo as a live engineer :)


Care for another take?  I'm a bit in both worlds, and I fully agree it's about the goals and the potential audience.

I find the challenges of recording unamplified music quite different from recording a FOH amplified concert.  My recordings of unamplified classical, jazz, bluegrass or whatever usually require little to no eq adjustment but have huge dynamic ranges that are the challenge.  When recording the challenge is noise at the quiet end while allowing enough headroom to capture the big dynamics.  On the playback side, my playback system can't handle those big dynamics easily.  I have to jump for the volume knob like Moke says.  These recordings would not work well at all on my friend's even more modest home stereos, ipods and car stereos.  That's just how it is, I can live with a larger dynamic range than they can.  There's the goal of the potential audience part.  But I haven't committed my recordings to that mastering adjustment yet.  More on that below.

I often eq my recordings of FOH amplified events (including amplified acoustic music) during playback and these often need little or no dynamic adjustment.  But this is a problem of an altogether different nature.  With the dynamic unamplified recordings, I think a super duper playback system could handle the levels and I wouldn't have to make adjustments, where the FOH amplified stuff needs eq to fix basic frequency problems that are not short comings in the playback chain.  Those eq adjustments can make a huge difference, but it takes a long time and alot of fine tweaking to get it just right - when it is right, there is no denying it's right. It's like night and day to whoever walks in the room.  Like Chris says I've learned alot in seriously listening and going through that process.  Some of the things I've learned are: It takes alot of time, concentration and dedication to do that properly.  Some recordings (and some recording deficiencies) seem to 'take' eq adjustments very well, others do not.  It's sometimes difficult to connect the 'mental idea' of what frequency band needs adjustment and what my ears are hearing.  It's very easy to make something sound different, it's quite difficult to make it sound better.  It's much too easy to make it sound horrible.

Done correctly, eq can make the recording sound more real, and much truer to being there.  I highly appreciate the 'purist' ideal and find a well done two mic Aud recording often sounds better because of that simplicity.  But that's not a 'true representation of the event' in any sense.  It is an illusion, sometimes a breathtakingly real one, but an illusion none the less.  If you can improve on your 2 mic purist recordings by selecting different mics with different responses, than that is essentially also manipulating the recording, just in a different way.  Which is truer?  Chris' note on representing the 'sound' of his mics is different, in that case it's the quality of the mic that is being listened for, not the 'true representation of the event'. A different goal.

I don't touch my original recordings, but I on occasion create eq'd versions. I only do that hesitantly though because I lack the tools to do it properly: a well trained brain, high quality neutral playback equipment and room, and quality hardware/software.  I know that any adjustments I make are adjusting for subjective things besides the objective sound of the recording.  Like it or not I'm also adjusting for my playback system and room so the adjustments that people tell me make it sound great and 'like I'm there' when they stop by my living room, may not translate to their car, ipod or stereo.  Most of them would not likely notice some resonance at say 85hz or at 7khz (and certainly couldn't identify the frequency if they did hear something amiss), but I would and I'd be upset to hear it that way.  In that case my 'mastering' wouldn't be much of an improvement, just a bastardization.

I haven't created dynamically modified versions yet.  The main reason is that I can turn the volume knob easier than setting the eq! The flip side is that my understanding of adjusting the dynamics is much less evolved than adjusting the eq.  I could set a volume envelope for loud applause and print that to the file like a recording of my volume knob adjustments, but I haven't learned enough to get good compressor or limiter settings that don't degrade the sound to my ears.  That ear knowledge is more difficult than learning effective eq for me.

Mastering engineers are highly specialized, have custom built rooms and loads of specialized, expensive gear, and good ones are paid handsomely for their work.  If anyone could do it by tweaking a few knobs, those guys would be out of business.  I recognize the potential for mastering, and the potential for me to screw it up at the same time.  I don't take that lightly, which is why I've hesitated for so long to get into it.  I also realize that even if I had the best skills and tools I'd still have to decide on which compromises to make. Once it's out there it's forever.

In the end it's all about compromising for the requirements, desires and expectations of the potential audience.  I agree with the poor assessments of many commercial releases and 'instant live' recordings though I've only heard a couple of them.  Those are compromised for the marketplace, squashed for car-ready dynamics, etc. 

But I'm a weirdo that thinks even Aud's with cardioid mics sound flat, squashed and closed in most of the time.  Blumlein, subcards or omnis sound more 'real' to me.  I've got my hands full working on getting the most out of the recording side so far, with little time to get to the post production dark side.

Appologies for all the words.








In a perfect world I would agree with you 1000%...

But unfortunately we dont live in a perfect world. There is no such thing as a pair of mics that can with out a question of a doubt recreate the event exactly the way we hear it. Why because not all of our hearing is thru the air.. For one reason and we dont have microphones with brains in them to apply psychoacoustic adaptive listing to the events that we want to record. Until we do recordings may need to be enhanced, It has nothing to do with the playback systems we use and everything to do with the devices we use to recreate the sound we hear. Its a real shame we have spent all this effort on A-D converters and new recording devices but the simple fact is microphone technology for the most part * the way we convert acoustic energy into voltage * has not changed that much in the last 20 years or so...

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #33 on: March 17, 2008, 07:07:02 PM »
In a perfect world I would agree with you 1000%...

But unfortunately we dont live in a perfect world. There is no such thing as a pair of mics that can with out a question of a doubt recreate the event exactly the way we hear it. Why because not all of our hearing is thru the air.. For one reason and we dont have microphones with brains in them to apply psychoacoustic adaptive listing to the events that we want to record. Until we do recordings may need to be enhanced, It has nothing to do with the playback systems we use and everything to do with the devices we use to recreate the sound we hear. Its a real shame we have spent all this effort on A-D converters and new recording devices but the simple fact is microphone technology for the most part * the way we convert acoustic energy into voltage * has not changed that much in the last 20 years or so...

Chris

I think we agree Chris, especially on the no perfect mics & mics lacking a brain.  :)  Not sure what you mean by the in a perfect world part.. I'm expressly talking about the limits of the gear most people are listening through (dynamics) and fixing sonic problems (eq).  Imperfect world stuff.

As for playback limitations, my recording chain can handle way more dynamic range than my stereo.  I consider adjusting the dynamics a convenience thing, not to have to adjust the volume when the applause hits (I'm not squashing classical for car listening).  That huge dynamic range on the recording is closer to the real experience.  It's just hard to handle.  That's adjusting a more perfect recording for imperfect playback systems or situations.

I need to eq some FOH amped things to correct for problems - as you know when done right, the results can be great, but it's not simple to do.  That is a more subjective adjustment geared towards 'making it sound right', or adjusting a less than perfect recording to make it sound 'closer to the live experience' (an illusion of course, maybe I'm making it what I wish the experience was  ;)).  The FOH stuff often needs more of that than the acoustic stuff to my ears.  But FOH stuff more often sounds like crap than the acoustic stuff too.
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline boyacrobat

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #34 on: March 17, 2008, 08:56:03 PM »
for me post work gets done in pre.
work that one out.

g

Offline BlingFree

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #35 on: March 18, 2008, 09:00:16 AM »
Tho I'm no professional I've released my fair share of recordings. Its rare that I do anything more than small eq bumps or bass rolloff with a modest, global level increase.

But whether I run light compression, heavy EQ or do no edits at all I always include my email and offer copies of the master... for those purists out there or anyone at all.
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Offline datbrad

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #36 on: March 18, 2008, 09:13:09 AM »
I am not a big fan of post tweaking, unless the raw recording suffers from some extreme flaw. For example, I have taken soundboard recordings where the vocals lacked compression and peaked louder than the instrument mix. A little compression applied will balance out this problem nicely.

Also, for acoustic recordings where the peak level of audience applause at the end of songs exceeds the peak level of the music, a carefully chosen threshold for a limiter can harness that issue.

Otherwise, I think I am more in the "raw" camp than the "mastering" camp. I have heard too many recordings where the amount of tweaking was audible in a negative way. "Less is more", as the saying goes.

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #37 on: March 18, 2008, 09:42:36 AM »
I have heard too many recordings where the amount of tweaking was audible in a negative way. "Less is more", as the saying goes.

truth.
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Dede2002

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #38 on: March 18, 2008, 10:11:58 AM »
I have heard too many recordings where the amount of tweaking was audible in a negative way. "Less is more", as the saying goes.

truth.

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #39 on: March 18, 2008, 11:06:33 AM »
Less is always more but none does not mean less

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Offline Kevin Straker

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #40 on: March 18, 2008, 11:25:07 AM »
I edit every show...

IEvery one of your favorite live records have been mastered... Thats what we are talking about here..



Most of those are live multitrack, not live 2 track. Obviously, remastering a multitrack recording is more productive.

It isn't remastering as it was never mastered.. All the records of yore and cd releases of today are mastered..what is sent to the mastering engineer is a 2 track mix down.. This is then mastered not remastered... Ala my 2 channel recordings that are then mastered..



Mastered, remastered, mixed, remixed, I'm confused. Are you saying that live albums are mixed in real time and then reduced to two tracks for mastering? I know plenty of sound men who do a live multitrack, with independent tracks, and then mix it down in a better environment. I assumed that this was the norm. 
Personally I have good luck setting my levels at the show and don't generally need post work. I prefer to eq on playback although I rarely even do that.  Thanks for the info and +T
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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #41 on: March 18, 2008, 11:39:09 AM »
So, Aegert,...
please tell me that the MOTB project doesn't just go ahead and eq/change all of the recordings that you all are processing?!?!

Quote
4.) Mastering/ Editing:  A Master MOTB editor is assigned to the newly transferred show. He will read the notes from the QC process and start attacking the issues on a professional Digital Audio Workstation. This mastering process will yield a tighter error free set of lossless compressed files known as FLAC. They will be in both 16 and 24 bit flavors. The files will be tracked into individual songs. AN MOTB Control Number will be generated and will become the MOTB Release Number upon final release.

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #42 on: March 18, 2008, 11:49:36 AM »
I remember way back in the cassette days of the '80s, I knew this big trader who always made copies through a really nice EQ. He felt every recording needed some adjustment in tone, and also tried to take more tape hiss out that Dolby did not already remove. I found his recordings sounded great on his home system, but not always on others, and certainly not mine. I had to spar with him in the beginning to let me copy his masters directly, deck to deck, which required re-routing his cables.

My position was, if they need EQ, I have tone controls on my playback gear to dial it in to my tastes.

I think a similar thing goes for post editing. Every single recording does not need a bunch of post work. Other than tracking, a good recording should be left alone and post work should be used only to salvage an otherwise unsatisfactory recording.
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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #43 on: March 18, 2008, 12:01:42 PM »
I remember way back in the cassette days of the '80s, I knew this big trader who always made copies through a really nice EQ. He felt every recording needed some adjustment in tone, and also tried to take more tape hiss out that Dolby did not already remove. I found his recordings sounded great on his home system, but not always on others, and certainly not mine. I had to spar with him in the beginning to let me copy his masters directly, deck to deck, which required re-routing his cables.

My position was, if they need EQ, I have tone controls on my playback gear to dial it in to my tastes.

I think a similar thing goes for post editing. Every single recording does not need a bunch of post work. Other than tracking, a good recording should be left alone and post work should be used only to salvage an otherwise unsatisfactory recording.

I stayed with a guy in Boulder for awhile in 85 that used to do that on all the tapes he copied
I have to agree that they might have sounded good on his home stereo but not on others

I rarely if ever EQ any of my recordings in post... only on playback
also what sounds good one day may not another even on the same system
your mood at the time can play a big factor in what you perceive

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #44 on: March 18, 2008, 12:19:50 PM »
I remember way back in the cassette days of the '80s, I knew this big trader who always made copies through a really nice EQ. He felt every recording needed some adjustment in tone, and also tried to take more tape hiss out that Dolby did not already remove. I found his recordings sounded great on his home system, but not always on others, and certainly not mine. I had to spar with him in the beginning to let me copy his masters directly, deck to deck, which required re-routing his cables.

My position was, if they need EQ, I have tone controls on my playback gear to dial it in to my tastes.

I think a similar thing goes for post editing. Every single recording does not need a bunch of post work. Other than tracking, a good recording should be left alone and post work should be used only to salvage an otherwise unsatisfactory recording.

I stayed with a guy in Boulder for awhile in 85 that used to do that on all the tapes he copied
I have to agree that they might have sounded good on his home stereo but not on others

I rarely if ever EQ any of my recordings in post... only on playback
also what sounds good one day may not another even on the same system
your mood at the time can play a big factor in what you perceive

I agree here for the most part guys.  I'll rarely do more EQ adjustment than a high-pass filter, even on my matrix mixes, for the reasons above - poor translation to other playback systems.  Professional mastering engineers specialize in fine-tuning the EQ, among other things, but I know I'm still learning and developing my ears so I try to leave as much as I feel is reasonable to adjustment during playback.

For stereo AUD recordings, I see myself capturing the room sound (or at least the 'room sound' as captured by my rig), so I'll only use a HPF to deal with excessive low end.  If I ever attack the EQ more than a basic HPF, mostly on matrix recordings where something is resonant due to summing or a poor room mix, I always 'test' the 'draft' mixes on a few other mediocre systems to see how it translates before I decide if I'm done with it and it is 'final'.  Usually, once I'm happy on my mixing/reference playback system, I test the 'draft' mix on my crappy stock car stereo and a boombox I use at work.  If it sounds good to me on all three, I'm generally happy with it and ready to move on to the next project.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2008, 12:22:16 PM by easyjim »

 

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