Topic: DAT or JB3? Whats your 2 cents?

[Sterling]

Some say:

it might be worth picking up one of the aes > optical converters that brian skalinder is testing out and playing with it before you ditch the jb3.  dats are a pain in the ass (and an added expense) which i'd avoid if at all possible.  just my .02
[/quote

What do you think?

[caymanreview]

well, considering the fact that he was talking to me, il throw my opinion in there

i was running a ua5, and had an optical out. the ua5 > jb3 combo is really the only way to go for 16bit imho

now im running a mini-me. and im without the optical output... its really a hassle to have to do a coax/aes > optical conversion. but i guess that once i get a good converter, im getting the one brian is testing, it wont be so bad

ive ran dat and jb3. and overall i really like the jb3 better. with the 5 minute transfgers and no tapes to buy i think it is the way to go

but you are also giving up coax inputs, and decent level meters going with the jb3

im not sure at this point wether i want a dat to hold me off till i get a lappy, or stick with the jb3 untill then

[chuckcage]

For what it's worth, I've been really pleased with my NJB3.  I honestly expected more problems than I've had.  I assumed that as it's consumer gear it would break right away, and I expected glitches.  Amazingly, I've had neither issues.

I suppose I should say that I'm extremely careful with mine -- I essentially treat it like most people treat their D8s.  I use it only for recording (no playback or MP3 player mess), I keep it in a nice padded case inside a strong hard case, and I generally pamper it.

There seem to be some combinations of hardware that don't really mesh with it, but if you've got (or are getting) one of the good combos, I'd recommend it fully.

Chuck

[drumminj]

I haven't babied my JB3 like Chuck has.  that's not to say I purposefully abuse it, but I used it as an mp3 player for a while before I got into recording (before they had firmware with level meters).  I used it in the car, at work, etc, and carried it around from place to place.  Hell, I even spilled a glass of wine on it once(while recording a show. Ooops).  Pulled the batteries and let it dry off, pulled it apart and cleaned everything with isopropyl alcohol, and it works just like new.

Now that I'm recording with it, I don't use it for much else.  Take much better care of it.  But it's gotten some abuse, and it's held up quite well.  I've had it for about a year and a half now.  Not sure how long I expect it to last, but just wanted to share my experience with giving it a beating and having it hold up quite well.

Also, I run a UA-5 in front of it.

[waltflanagansdog]

Cayman:  You have a PM

[zowie]

I've had a JB3 for about 6 mos.  During that time I've used it for about 8 live shows, at least 50 hours of air check recordings, and as a portable MP3 frequently on my commute.   It has given me ZERO problems, with the sole exception of locking up when its plugged into my cigarette lighter and I start up the car ("doc, it hurts when I go like this . . .").

Just be aware of the issues with using the internal mic pres discussed elsewhere (short answer: don't, they're a total joke).   The internal A/D converter, while not state of the art or anything, is in my view perfectly acceptable on a line level signal.

I don't see any reason to first get into DAT today.  The format's days are numbers.  It has a number of inconveniences.  NJB3 is virtually as good and potentially cheaper depending on what external gear choices you make, plus you get a fabulous MP3 player.

Save the money for a laptop rig.

[Sterling]

Great input guys +T all around. I am however wanting some input fomr the dat users out there. I mean what about festivals, how do the JB3 empty their HD for more room? (Sorry if I'm ignorant here) Also, what about tranfers, are they as easy as everyone says, assuming of course that one has an optical input intot heir computer. Thanks again guys, you are the best resource there is for this stuff...and more!

Peace, Love and the Beatles
SS

[Brian Skalinder]

The transfers are a complete breeze and super-fast over firewire - 2 hour show in 5min or so, something like that.  Slower over USB, but still much faster than a real-time transfer.  No need for an optical input on your laptop.

Haven't used mine for festivals - or much at all, yet, for that matter! - so I'll let others speak to that one.

[chuckcage]

I mean what about festivals, how do the JB3 empty their HD for more room?

20 gig is a lot of music.  At 650 meg/CD, that's 30 CDs worth, or many hours of music.  The biggest festival concern for the NJB3 is battery, but there are some solutions to that.  

Also, what about tranfers, are they as easy as everyone says, assuming of course that one has an optical input intot heir computer.

Actually, there is no optical output on the NJB3, so no optical in required on your computer.  The NJB3 has both USB (and much better) firewire, so you don't transfer at "1x speed."  You're pushing the data as fast as it can go.  For example, I can come home after a show and transfer a 3 hour monster in about 3-5 minutes.  The WAVs are right on your HD, and you can go from there, splitting them, renaming them, whatever.

Chuck

[ingsy]

For more NJB3 recording info, check out the yahaoo group called NJB3 Tapers.  Try this link (not sure if it will work)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/njb3tapers/

There are many posts about creating your own battery pack that could power the NJB3 through festivals.  I agree with previous posts that say 20 gigs is more than enough storage than you would need.  I say go with the JB3 or a laptop...DAT will be gone soon,

[Scuba Jeremy]

If I were to do it all over again today, I'd probably go with the JB3 over DAT. I bought a new PCM-M1 a few years back after taping on MD for about a year and a half. I love the M1, but now I'm starting to lust after those 24 bit tapes.

The only two advantages I see to DAT right now are the hard copy archive (master DATs are nice to have) and the 48Khz resolution, which in 16 bit is barely noticable anyway. However the JB3 should completely phase MD out of the picture, I'd imagine. Too many pluses over that.

[drumminj]

JB3 will record 48khz, so I don't know that DAT has an advantage there.  Actually, it will lock on to whatever digital signal you send it (but will do the A/D conversion at 48khz, I believe). I personally have recorded a 96khz signal with it fed from my UA-5.

[Scuba Jeremy]

Ah, right on then. My bad!

[drumminj]

I should clarify this...

JB3 will record 48khz, so I don't know that DAT has an advantage there.  Actually, it will lock on to whatever digital signal you send it (but will do the A/D conversion at 48khz, I believe). I personally have recorded a 96khz signal with it fed from my UA-5.

If you feed the JB3 an analog signal, I believe it will do the A/D conversion at 48khz.  If you feed it a digital signal, it will lock on and record whatever you feed it.  At least I'm sure it will lock on 44, 48, and 96khz signals.  It does not resample down to 44.  However, the header is incorrect if you feed it anything above 48khz, as it will say "48khz".  It's a very quick edit in Wavelab (and I'm sure other software as well) to fix this.

[pfife]

I should clarify this...

JB3 will record 48khz, so I don't know that DAT has an advantage there.  Actually, it will lock on to whatever digital signal you send it (but will do the A/D conversion at 48khz, I believe). I personally have recorded a 96khz signal with it fed from my UA-5.

If you feed the JB3 an analog signal, I believe it will do the A/D conversion at 48khz.  If you feed it a digital signal, it will lock on and record whatever you feed it.  At least I'm sure it will lock on 44, 48, and 96khz signals.  It does not resample down to 44.  However, the header is incorrect if you feed it anything above 48khz, as it will say "48khz".  It's a very quick edit in Wavelab (and I'm sure other software as well) to fix this.

If you feed the JB3 an analog signal, you can decide what sample rate you want, up to 48khz.

I think the JB3 is completely awesome.  I use it for recording only, and I baby it.  Have had no issues (knocking on wood...).

As far as hard copies goes, I just burn a .shn of the .wav as soon as I transfer it (but there are issues w/ physical cd-r quality there... ) ;

Mine has a 40 gig HD, which is 10 gigs larger than my computer's hd.  I have no worries about filling that thing up...

Once downside - I believe they are discontinuing it.  Which, unfortunately means that that upgrade to make it record at 24bits ain't gonna happen anytime soon...  

But other than that, I think it rules.

[Kindguy]

I use the JB3 & love it.

I also just bought a nice used d7 for backup/patching & those festival low battery times.

You can charge the JB3 in your car off a cig lighter adapter. I bought one with a tape adapter (so you can play the JB3 in your car, nice for long drives home from shows) at Walmart for 16 bucks.

Battery power shouldn't be an issue. Search ebay regularly & you can pick up new JB3 batt's for 30 to 35 bucks shipped.

[Nick in Edinboro]

Can you just grab any AC adapter, or do you have to worry about it's funky ~5.9v requirements.. or is that common?  I'm so ignorant when it comes to electricity.

I bought a dongle for my car deck so that it has RCA in's now  Gonna be nice ot hear the show as I drive home from it..

[Kindguy]

The one I got is made by Phillips. It has switches to change the voltage. Has like 10 settings on it.

[joemango]

The NJB3 will only accept up to 5 volts DC.  any more than that and it won't operate at all.  A sony 6v yellow plug will fit, but the voltage is the key, so don't bother with a sony adapter unless you are just cutting the plug off to make a DIY adapter.  I haven't tried to do a battery setup, I've just relied on my 2 internnal batteries so far.  

One of the problems with using external power is that it charges the battery as it operates, and there is a problem with the unit that makes it lock up when the charging cycle is complete, requiring a reboot of the device.  So needless to say, I haven't tried external battery power.

I would suggest a 12v SLA and the auto adapter if you really need more than 5 hrs continuous recording.  Otherwise, order extra internal batteries and charge them before the show.  Don't forget you can charge 2 at a time.

[Just Taper Mark from NC]

the reason I'm sticking with dat is for the sole purpose of having a master after the fact,what happens after you've cleared your hd or jb3 and your discs get scratched or lost,what do you do?

[Nick Culbreth]

i'll throw my .02 in here and expland on what i was saying in the other thread.  if i didn't use my d100's internal a/d for stealthing and could find a reliable coax/aes > optical converter i would definately sell off my dat.  i've only had one real problem with my dat (misloaded tape at wsp lexington) but there are a lot of extra complications with dats which i would love to do without (misloads, real time conversion, media costs, expensive repairs, etc).  the actual dat tapes are nice to have as archives but i keep master shn copies archived on cd as well so they really aren't necessary in my situation.  also i don't listen to my dats, but that'll probably change when i start putting some money into my playback rig.

right now i'm sticking with dat until i can find a replacement with a similar/better internal a/d but if you're going to be running a digital signal in and have a reliable way of converting to an optical signal i don't think you can go wrong with the jb3.

[blguillen]

the reason I'm sticking with dat is for the sole purpose of having a master after the fact,

i was thinkin about running mics > ps 2 > ad20 > 7 pin > d8
and/or at the same time

ad20 > optical out > jb3  

is that doable?  or am i just thinkin out loud?  I've been looking at buying a jb3 as a backup to the dat...

[Kindguy]

the reason I'm sticking with dat is for the sole purpose of having a master after the fact,

i was thinkin about running mics > ps 2 > ad20 > 7 pin > d8
and/or at the same time

ad20 > optical out > jb3  

is that doable?  or am i just thinkin out loud?  I've been looking at buying a jb3 as a backup to the dat...

All day long with the Sony Active Optical 7 pin.

[chuckcage]

ad20 > optical out > jb3  

is that doable?  or am i just thinkin out loud?  I've been looking at buying a jb3 as a backup to the dat...

This is exactly what I run (AD-20 > optical out > NJB3) and it works wonderfully.

Chuck

[zowie]

the reason I'm sticking with dat is for the sole purpose of having a master after the fact,what happens after you've cleared your hd or jb3 and your discs get scratched or lost,what do you do?

What happens if your tape gets lost or damaged?  At least its a lot faster and easier to make a duplicate master with the NJB.

[chase]

the reason I'm sticking with dat is for the sole purpose of having a master after the fact,what happens after you've cleared your hd or jb3 and your discs get scratched or lost,what do you do?

What happens if your tape gets lost or damaged?  At least its a lot faster and easier to make a duplicate master with the NJB.

this doesn't make sense to me.  cdr's are so cheap you could make 3-4 backup copies in shn/flac for the price of a dat tape.  this would actually make  more sense than a dat because you could feasibly have backup copies in different locations in case of theft/fire/etc, if indeed you are that worried about archiving.


i originally bought the JB3 when it first came out in june 02 for ~$400 and at the time it had so many issues i returned it and bought a d8 instead.  if you are just building a rig and thinking of going down the ua-5/ad-20 route then the JB3 is the perfect choice now that all the problems are worked out.  also, fwiw i ran the JB3 line-in off of a board a few times and the A>D isn't all that bad, but not great by any means.

[BCostigan]

I have many of the same issues as others making a switch to something like the JB3.  I have a D7 that I bought very lightly used over 2 years ago.  I have had one tape misload on me and that's the only trouble I've had with it.  If it ain't broke....well....

I guess I hesitate only for fear of the unknown and it's inability to accept a coax signal without the use of some other device.  If there were a device like the CO2 that was rock solid I may be more inclined.

This may be a stretch and a bit prejudiced but I'm guessing most JB3 users are younger...say....under 25 (more accepting of new gadgets) and those of us not ready to give up our master tapes are about 25+. (getting old...don't like change)

I know I'm still getting used to live music being on CDs and not the old trusty analog cassettes.

[Just Taper Mark from NC]

this doesn't make sense to me.  cdr's are so cheap you could make 3-4 backup copies in shn/flac for the price of a dat tape.  this would actually make  more sense than a dat because you could feasibly have backup copies in different locations in case of theft/fire/etc, if indeed you are that worried about archiving.


i originally bought the JB3 when it first came out in june 02 for ~$400 and at the time it had so many issues i returned it and bought a d8 instead.  if you are just building a rig and thinking of going down the ua-5/ad-20 route then the JB3 is the perfect choice now that all the problems are worked out.  also, fwiw i ran the JB3 line-in off of a board a few times and the A>D isn't all that bad, but not great by any means.

I have the shn's of the fall downloads(feb. phish)my 1st disc for 2/15 got scratched in my car so I went to get the shn out of storage and burn a new disc but it wouldn't convert the file,all the other discs will work but not this one.so now I have a shn disc that's no good and i'm missing an audio disc because of it now.
if I burn off 3-4 disc of shn'd like you suggest and then put them in different places then I have to worry about where they're at,if they're being abuse,lost,whatever.it does'nt make sense at all to me to do that.so not to beat a dead horse or get a flame war going just call me old skool.

and to tell the truth,the day I have no options in my recording media will probably be the day I quit taping.

[chase]

fair enough, to each his own

btw, i can hook you up with that disc if you want, i have all the livephish downloads, minus philly and boston of the most recent tour.  shoot me a PM or email.

[chuckcage]

Unless someone can really prove that burned backups are less safe than DAT backups, I don't see how there's really any difference between a D8 and an NJB3 in terms of backup.  

That doesn't mean that I don't respect everyone's personal preferences for backup -- just saying that that's the only difference.

Certainly from what I can tell the biggest drawbacks to the NJB3 are its lack of coax input and battery/power issues.  The D8s issues seem to be tape cost and wear concerns.  Both units suffer from minor (and well known) reliability issues, and both are respected (at least here from what I can tell) as great equipment.

Chuck

[Chapper]

[quote author=ingsy
There are many posts about creating your own battery pack that could power the NJB3 through festivals.  I agree with previous posts that say 20 gigs is more than enough storage than you would need.  I say go with the JB3 or a laptop...DAT will be gone soon,

From looking at the web page, it appears that you can run two batteries internally.  They claim 22 hours of playback time with both batteries.
Is anyone out here using the internal battery(ies)..if so, what kind of run time do you get?

[Nick in Edinboro]

It's more then 6 hours of record time I believe, I haven't pushed it until it died but I haven't run into a concert that has been long enough.  I have taped two shows before charging both around ~2, 2.5 hours long.

[chuckcage]

I get 5 reliable hours out of the two internal batteries.

Chuck

[Nick in Edinboro]

Ya I think I meant to say around 6, not more then 6..  Might be less, have yet to run into a situation where it's died so I can't say what's the exact # sorry bout taht.

[Nicaragua]

I did a test last weekend and it died at 5 hours and 24 minutes

probably more than enough time than i'll ever need for the time being

[wsp12]

i have a JB3 and love it, having ran dat in the past i would never go back to tape,  jb3 or laptop is the only way to go imho  mike

[kgreener]

This may be a stretch and a bit prejudiced but I'm guessing most JB3 users are younger...say....under 25 (more accepting of new gadgets) and those of us not ready to give up our master tapes are about 25+. (getting old...don't like change)

I know I'm still getting used to live music being on CDs and not the old trusty analog cassettes.

Yessir, this is definitely a stretch my friend!  I'm a NJB3 user/lover, and I'm 42 years old.  And I'm one who obviously grew up with cassette, but have made & embraced the change to CD.  Sorry to shoot down your theory my man!  

peace,
Keith

[Swanny]

I will find out soon. I plan on picking up a JB3 to run till by AD1k fries itself. My D8 is a tank though, so is the P1, so it better not be a turd.

[zhianosatch]

that's the thing, the jb3 is not a tank. it wasn't designed for taping. it's a consumer-level piece of equipment and you know it just by the feel. that said, i never got to use the one i bought, returned it, and picked up a d8 instead.
the incredible benefits of the jb3 cannot be overlooked - they're huge - but there certainly are some drawbacks.
i went with dat and would do it again.
armen

[zowie]

I get about 3.5 hrs from one battery.  You can extend the life by keeping the monitor volume all the way down.

[Nick in Edinboro]

I get about 3.5 hrs from one battery.  You can extend the life by keeping the monitor volume all the way down.

That sucks juice even when not monitoring?  Didn't know that! +T for the great tip.

As for it's "quality" your definately right zhianosatch, luckily I baby my shit.. anything I paid like good money for I tend to treat really well.  So so far it's worked out well.. However, accidents happen and it definately couldn't do the 2ft drop like a D8..!

[zhianosatch]

I get about 3.5 hrs from one battery.  You can extend the life by keeping the monitor volume all the way down.

That sucks juice even when not monitoring?  Didn't know that! +T for the great tip.

As for it's "quality" your definately right zhianosatch, luckily I baby my shit.. anything I paid like good money for I tend to treat really well.  So so far it's worked out well.. However, accidents happen and it definately couldn't do the 2ft drop like a D8..!

Which I have done twice. D'oh!

[Sterling]

Great advice, i'm gonna go for the JB3 for sure. Know to just get some wind screens, vert bar.....(looks to left with hand on chin).

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

so I went to get the shn out of storage and burn a new disc but it wouldn't convert the file,all the other discs will work but not this one.

That's what MD5s are for...  You should have checked the integrity of your SHN discs before you deleted them off your HD.  

Not trying to knock you, I think DAT hardcopies are great.  But SHN is just as good as an archival media - if not more convenient...

Terry

[Nick in Edinboro]

so I went to get the shn out of storage and burn a new disc but it wouldn't convert the file,all the other discs will work but not this one.

That's what MD5s are for...  You should have checked the integrity of your SHN discs before you deleted them off your HD.  

Terry not trying to knock you either but a lot of things come into the equation past the md5 check..

It could have very well be fine when he put it away but a few months or a year down the line something could've happened to the actual archival medium causing the data on it to be corrupted (poor storage, bad environment, poor handling, volitile marker ate through disk, etc.)....

[nickgregory]

the thing that scares me the most for CDR archival is how long are these things going to last...I have had some go bad in a year, and some that are 5+ years old that still work great...

on the flip side, I have had no DAT tapes fail that have been sitting on my shelf.

[chuckcage]

Hey -- get the best of both worlds:  Back up your SHNs to a DAT drive!  

Just kidding.  

Chuck

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

so I went to get the shn out of storage and burn a new disc but it wouldn't convert the file,all the other discs will work but not this one.

That's what MD5s are for...  You should have checked the integrity of your SHN discs before you deleted them off your HD.  

Terry not trying to knock you either but a lot of things come into the equation past the md5 check..

It could have very well be fine when he put it away but a few months or a year down the line something could've happened to the actual archival medium causing the data on it to be corrupted (poor storage, bad environment, poor handling, volitile marker ate through disk, etc.)....

Those same kind of problems occur with DAT...  SHN and the MD5 system, I feel, is a better archival system than straight DAT tapes.

I was trying to point out that SHN discs can be made so that you can check the discs for errors before archiving.

Terry

[zhianosatch]

No, you check the files for errors, not the discs.

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

No, you check the files for errors, not the discs.

Mincing words:

By burning the MD5 along with its files onto the CDR, then dropping that MD5 (the one on the disc you just burned) will check the integrity of the files you just burned onto the disc.

Thus both answers are somewhat correct:  The MD5 can/will check the files on the disc.

Terry

[ianstone]

I would be interested to hear of anyone using the JB3 in a 'stealth' situation.
I currently have a d8, that basically sits around. I considered selling it and getting a JB3, but i don't know that i'd trust it for setting levels, a/d conversion, etc...
I'm sure it's great when it's behind a nice a/d like the 1000, ad2k+, or  the ua-5.  But what about using the line in stage?

How would these compare (my stealth rig)
mbho ka200n/603a>mp2>d8 (via mini>mini)
mbhos>mp2>jb3 (via mini>mini)

?

Now that i'm a laptop taper, i rarely use the d8 - and the only real reason that I hold onto it is for the occasional stealth op - i stealth maybe 1-3 shows per year...

ian

[Sterling]

Results are in
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I just got a D100...

[chuckcage]

Congrats.  From what I hear it's a quality piece of equipment and should serve you well!

Chuck

[teamakg]

I get about 3.5 hrs from one battery.  You can extend the life by keeping the monitor volume all the way down.

That sucks juice even when not monitoring?  Didn't know that! +T for the great tip.

As for it's "quality" your definately right zhianosatch, luckily I baby my shit.. anything I paid like good money for I tend to treat really well.  So so far it's worked out well.. However, accidents happen and it definately couldn't do the 2ft drop like a D8..!

you can also get some more battery life by:
1.  turning off the infrared remote thing
2.  turning the backlite screen to go out quicker.

[zhianosatch]

Attababy, congrats.

[joemango]

Have fun buying tapes!

[Rick]

Sorry if this a little off topic.... but I've been thinking about getting a JB3 for open taping situations and running it behind my SBM-1.... any one know which sony 7-pin > optical cable I might need? Is there even one with a mini out or do I need adaptor?

[Brian Skalinder]

The model # for the Sony 7-pin > optical cable is in the Archival Info section.  Dunno about the toslink v. mini optical connector question, though.

[caymanreview]

that is a good ? about the mini connecter for a 7 pin optical cable. i would think that they are just toslink. the adapters are easily attainable to go toslink > mini. but would a shitty adapter affect the signal in a situation like this?

[Savage Messiah]

If Creative can get its Nomad series down to the size of the iRiver iHP series, it will have me sold (we're talking about slightly larger than the size of a cell phone or slightly less than the size of an M1)!
 
Nearly 100% of all the show's I've taped have been stealth, and I personally think there's no real point to taping BTAT shows with anything less than

Mics over $1000 on stand > 48V phantom power > A/D running off DC power supply > DA-P1 or JB3

So for now, I'm doing like some of you here and sticking with:

AT933 > AD-20 > POC-DA12P > D100

As for lack of an external A/D-preamp, I think people get tired after a while going line-in 5 feet form the stacks at a loud show - I certainly did. Having cards and an external preamp helps that out quite a bit.

The technology does exist to bring the size down on the HDD recorders. And I figure someone will do it well before my D100 craps out permanently.. haha

[Savage Messiah]

Sorry if this a little off topic.... but I've been thinking about getting a JB3 for open taping situations and running it behind my SBM-1.... any one know which sony 7-pin > optical cable I might need? Is there even one with a mini out or do I need adaptor?

Rick,

I was just cable shopping and I think the one you need is the Sony POC-DA12SP. The SP has the miniplug output instead of the toslink plugs on the DA12P. I don't know what luck you'll have finding it though, but I put out an APB on DAT-Heads for the one I wanted and got a bunch of responses, so I'd recommend trying that. Some people even had cables new in their packages...