Author Topic: Getting Back in the Game / Best Rig For $800-$1000? (Read 17606 times)

charles · « **on:** April 03, 2010, 12:30:40 PM »

Been out of taping for several years now, but a recent experience has me strongly considering getting back in the game. I need some suggestions for the best rig that can be assembled for $800 to $1000. 4 years ago I could have easily answered this question myself, but I'm assuming that there is a lot of new equipment that has come out in the past 4 or 5 years. I'm looking for something versatile and I have no interest in stealth. Music taped would include jazz, rock, blues and bluegrass. One thing to consider is that I have a good laptop already prepped for taping and loaded with Wavelab and Soundforge so that can be part of the rig, which would allow more money to be allotted to the mics, pres, etc. Of course, if there is a much better option out there than the laptop I would be open to that as well.

I know these questions get asked often because I used to answer them often when I was a more active member. I would really appreciate any advice that can be offered, so thank you in advance.

edtyre · « **Reply #1 on:** April 03, 2010, 12:49:06 PM »

There are some very good mics for sale in the Yard Sale right now:
Gefells
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=132214.0
900.00
Beyers
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=118800.0
1125.00

Add a small recorder
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/594741-REG/Marantz_PMD661_PMD661_Professional_Portable_Flash.html
599.00

This is more than your budget, but you can make smokin tapes right out of the gate with this setup.

Scooter123 · « **Reply #2 on:** April 03, 2010, 01:59:34 PM »

I used to be a sound guy, and here is my low end solution:

Shure Mikes--I'd go for the ubiquitous M58. A solid "B" mike used on most stages today. About $250 for a pair
Preamp--I'd go with a Nady DMP2 About $150
Edirol Recorder About $300
Mike Stand, Windshields, Cables. About $150

This would get you started.

charles · « **Reply #3 on:** April 03, 2010, 02:20:31 PM »

Quote from: Scooter123 on April 03, 2010, 01:59:34 PM

I used to be a sound guy, and here is my low end solution:

Shure Mikes--I'd go for the ubiquitous M58. A solid "B" mike used on most stages today. About $250 for a pair
Preamp--I'd go with a Nady DMP2 About $150
Edirol Recorder About $300
Mike Stand, Windshields, Cables. About $150

This would get you started.

What if I were to scratch the Edirol, use my laptop and Wavelab, and apply that $300 to upgrade the rest of the equipment needed? Would that be a possibility? If so, what would you do with the extra $300?

it-goes-to-eleven · « **Reply #4 on:** April 03, 2010, 02:46:58 PM »

Used r09 for $150
Littlebox ($180?)
Some mics.

jeromejello · « **Reply #5 on:** April 03, 2010, 03:44:37 PM »

i would probably skip the laptop... it always seemed to me to be more of a pain in the ass then its worth...

approximate prices...
150 used r-09
350 used mixpre/mp-2
500 - 700 used mics... what every you can get for the price... beyer 930s seem to be popular at that price point...

charles · « **Reply #6 on:** April 03, 2010, 04:02:18 PM »

Quote from: jeromejello on April 03, 2010, 03:44:37 PM

i would probably skip the laptop... it always seemed to me to be more of a pain in the ass then its worth...

approximate prices...
150 used r-09
350 used mixpre/mp-2
500 - 700 used mics... what every you can get for the price... beyer 930s seem to be popular at that price point...

That seems reasonable. I'll have to look into the r09 and the Beyer 930s's as I'm not very familiar with either. The MP2 I'm very familiar with.

By saying the laptop is more of a pain that it's worth are you referring to dealing with the battery life and the general uneasiness that comes with trying to protect a laptop through an entire show?

goodcooker · « **Reply #7 on:** April 03, 2010, 04:42:34 PM »

For under a thousand I would get these http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=131347.0
and this http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=131298.0

I know someone going to say that the Marantz 660 is only 16 bit but this box sounds great and is in your price range.

That leaves several hundred for a stand, cables, battery power, a bag and all the other stuff you end up needing.

Other mics in your price range

M Audio Pulsar ~300 pair new
Studio Projects C4 ~ 200 pair used
Peluso CMC6 ~600 new

Another option would be a Church Audio mic + preamp setup with a mini recorder (R09, Marantz 620, Tascam DR2d)
Pocket sized but suitable for open taping as well.

rastasean · « **Reply #8 on:** April 03, 2010, 06:04:49 PM »

For a recorder, I'd suggest the 09HR and one is now in the yard sale:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=133991.0 $230

These mics look to be for sale and you get card, omn, and hyper caps:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=131347.0

little box pre-amp, cables, and stand

SmokinJoe · « **Reply #9 on:** April 03, 2010, 07:03:47 PM »

I think those ADK SC-T's are sold.

There is a guy here (Chris Johnson) who goes by the nickname "Busman". Now Busman has his own line of mics... there is a this pair http://busmanaudio.com/bsc1.htmlv with omni/subcard/card/hypers for $450. I've never used them, but people seem to like them and I think think they are work considering.

An Edirol UA-5 is a good preamp with USB output for your laptop. Most tapers have them modified to run without needing a computer and further improvements to clean up the signal chain. UA-5s are no longer made, but there is a ton of them around. A stock one probably goes for $100 and a good modded one for $250. This would great because you can use your laptop now, and if you want to switch to another recorder you can do that later.

Scooter123 · « **Reply #10 on:** April 03, 2010, 07:28:46 PM »

Some Shure M57's just sold on eBay for $50 a piece. This is a good solid, workhorse type mike. They are very fugible and you could sell them for the same $50 a year or two from now, if you want to upgrade.

Patrick · « **Reply #11 on:** April 03, 2010, 10:00:38 PM »

Quote from: Scooter123 on April 03, 2010, 07:28:46 PM

Some Shure M57's just sold on eBay for $50 a piece. This is a good solid, workhorse type mike. They are very fugible and you could sell them for the same $50 a year or two from now, if you want to upgrade.

I couldn't recommend taping with sm57's or sm58's. Not only are they dynamic mics, but they have a frequency response that is optimzed for handheld and onstage use. They have a dramatic proximity effect which is not ideal for distant sound sources. Also given the fact that there are acceptable sounding condensors at the same price as a pair of 58's makes this a no brainer, IMO.

stevetoney · « **Reply #12 on:** April 03, 2010, 10:42:16 PM »

Since you were into taping before, you know that the mics are the most important. Then the preamp. So, for a grand, hands down the rig to get is the M300s in the yard sale right now. The Niant Littlebox again is hands down the best sounding preamp box for 200 money can buy. To hell with the recorder...since you've got your computer, go straight into your computer and you're there for just over a grand. This would be a FANTASTIC sounding rig for a grand. Alternatively, substitute an Oade UA-5 for the Littlebox. Can't go far wrong either way. This is all assuming you have a good soundcard in your computer, as your OP implies.

Fried Chicken Boy · « **Reply #13 on:** April 04, 2010, 04:00:12 AM »

Quote from: charles on April 03, 2010, 04:02:18 PM

By saying the laptop is more of a pain that it's worth are you referring to dealing with the battery life and the general uneasiness that comes with trying to protect a laptop through an entire show?

That's certainly part of it. I definitely wouldn't expect to get access to a power outlet at a venue. Even if you know somebody working there it can be a hassle and several bands even include a condition in their taping policies about having a self-powered/contained rig. Powering a laptop and mic-computer interface for a few hours can be difficult; a marathon 4-5 hour show would be close to impossible.

From personal experience, I have a friend who decided to use his Mac and a Motu Traveller to begin recording live shows a little over 3 years ago. I helped him out a handful of times and it was always a headache. The Motu was bus powered so we could run it off the firewire port but we were lucky to get barely 2 hours before the laptop ran out of juice. And as you pointed out, there was the stress of wondering if the fragile computer would make it through the evening without someone stumbling into or spilling a drink on it. The biggest issue, IMO, was the recordings themselves were riddled with dropouts and skips as the Mac's CPU had a hard time keeping up. It ultimately made for a lot of work in post and the effort was barely worth it.

Granted, technology has advanced in the past few years, but I'm sticking to the simplicity and durability of my digital recorders.

stevetoney · « **Reply #14 on:** April 04, 2010, 05:37:16 AM »

Quote from: Fried Chicken Boy on April 04, 2010, 04:00:12 AM

Quote from: charles on April 03, 2010, 04:02:18 PM
By saying the laptop is more of a pain that it's worth are you referring to dealing with the battery life and the general uneasiness that comes with trying to protect a laptop through an entire show?

Granted, technology has advanced in the past few years, but I'm sticking to the simplicity and durability of my digital recorders.

I don't disagree with you, but I'm all about getting good sound with my rig, so I personally put priority on getting better sound than what I record onto. That's why I usually recommend starting with the mics and working backwards. Since he already has an end device to record with, he can concentrate on getting the best upfront sound possible now with the budget that he has and then start saving so that a year or two down the road he can pick up that field convenient recorder. Given the choice, I think I'd go for sound quality first and foremost because in the 1K range, you're in that range where the sound can go from acceptable and kinda marginal with the lower end pair of mics in the 200 to 300 range (because of the watered down budget if you buy a field recorder now) to very nice in the 600 to 800 range (by putting that extra money into mics now instead of a recorder).

FWIW, I agree that laptop recording isn't as convenient as a nice pocket sized digital recorder, but plenty of people record directly into laptops these days...I mean thats where all of the files end up when we get home anyways. So for me, when it comes to laptop recording in the field, it's simply a question of having enough power in the field.

PS: I would add a recommendation to take your $300 low end laptop rather than your $2000 newly purchased top of the line model. Need to always consider the possibility of the presence of beer and drunkenness in the taping environment.

Nick's Picks · « **Reply #15 on:** April 04, 2010, 07:57:18 AM »

Studio projects LSD 2 : used around $500. New, $700.
get an "all in one" deck, like the Marantz 660, 661, 671 (modified would be best).
you'll be around $1200 there in total.

I also liked and would 2nd the recommendation of the Naint littlebox preamp > small deck (edirol r09, sony m10). Thats the whole back end for $500.
then cruise the yard sale for the best mics you can find for the remaining dough.

Belexes · « **Reply #16 on:** April 04, 2010, 09:13:24 AM »

Quote from: rastasean on April 03, 2010, 06:04:49 PM

For a recorder, I'd suggest the 09HR and one is now in the yard sale:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=133991.0 $230

Good suggestion.

darktrain · « **Reply #17 on:** April 04, 2010, 11:11:36 AM »

akg 46X or 39X(300-600) > naiant littlebox(260.00 with internal rechargable lithium) > Sony PCM-M10(300.00) , that is one solid rig for 860.00 - 1160.00

charles · « **Reply #18 on:** April 04, 2010, 12:55:29 PM »

All great suggestions guys. Thanks for all the advice. The laptop I would be using is not my primary laptop so it is somewhat expendable. However, it's not an old clunker either. Runs a Pentium dual-core and 3GB of RAM so it should easily be able to keep up with recording without dropouts, etc. as long as I wipe it clean except for the OS and Wavelab or Soundforge. I can get an extra battery dock to deal with the potential issues there. If it shits the bed along the way, that's fine. Like I said, it's not my primary laptop.

That leaves $1000 for mics and a pre / A/D. I'm going to go ahead and mark in the laptop as the recorder and allot $700 to the mics and $300 to the pre and see what I can come up with. If anyone has suggestions to the specific numbers, I'm all ears. In the meantime I'm going to start searching around and doing some reading to catch up on all the new mics and pres out there. The last time I was frequenting this group the Pelusos (these still around?) were the new interesting mid price range mic. I guess now it's Busman's new line. Are there any other new mid price range mics out there that haven't already been mentioned?

As for the pre, I'm going to check further into this Littlebox. Sounds very interesting. Any other new pres out there I should check out?

Brian Skalinder · « **Reply #19 on:** April 04, 2010, 01:38:00 PM »

Personally, I wouldn't rely on the laptop to do ADC (sound quality is almost assuredly sub-par), so I'd look for an outboard ADC option. I think an Edirol UA-5 fits the bill nicely for pre + ADC, like these in the YS:

Oade W-MOD
Oade P-MOD

Fried Chicken Boy · « **Reply #20 on:** April 04, 2010, 03:00:26 PM »

Quote from: Brian Skalinder on April 04, 2010, 01:38:00 PM

Personally, I wouldn't rely on the laptop to do ADC (sound quality is almost assuredly sub-par), so I'd look for an outboard ADC option. I think an Edirol UA-5 fits the bill nicely for pre + ADC

Agreed and great call on the UA-5 option; there are more than a few superb recordings using this device. As far as the Littlebox is concerned, it is a great pre for the money but as there's no on-board a/d converter you won't have much initial use for it unless you're running it in front of a UA-5 (or other computer interface) which is redundant considering your budget. Could be a better idea to put that money toward your mics and hold off on the Littlebox until you're considering a standalone recorder. My .02.

Jhurlbs81 · « **Reply #21 on:** April 04, 2010, 04:53:32 PM »

Quote

I think an Edirol UA-5 fits the bill nicely for pre + ADC

sparkey · « **Reply #22 on:** April 04, 2010, 05:08:31 PM »

km184>littlebox>cheapest bitbucket you can find. In a month or two buy yourself a sbm1 and you're in business, with a fairly small footprint taboot taboot.

stevetoney · « **Reply #23 on:** April 04, 2010, 06:37:21 PM »

Quote from: charles on April 04, 2010, 12:55:29 PM

All great suggestions guys. Thanks for all the advice. The laptop I would be using is not my primary laptop so it is somewhat expendable. However, it's not an old clunker either. Runs a Pentium dual-core and 3GB of RAM so it should easily be able to keep up with recording without dropouts, etc. as long as I wipe it clean except for the OS and Wavelab or Soundforge. I can get an extra battery dock to deal with the potential issues there. If it shits the bed along the way, that's fine. Like I said, it's not my primary laptop.

That leaves $1000 for mics and a pre / A/D. I'm going to go ahead and mark in the laptop as the recorder and allot $700 to the mics and $300 to the pre and see what I can come up with. If anyone has suggestions to the specific numbers, I'm all ears. In the meantime I'm going to start searching around and doing some reading to catch up on all the new mics and pres out there. The last time I was frequenting this group the Pelusos (these still around?) were the new interesting mid price range mic. I guess now it's Busman's new line. Are there any other new mid price range mics out there that haven't already been mentioned?

As for the pre, I'm going to check further into this Littlebox. Sounds very interesting. Any other new pres out there I should check out?

The Peluso's might be a good choice for you if that's a sound you like. Personally, not a fan, but that's what makes this group interesting. One of the 'buzz' mics in your price range is probably the Beyerdynamic MC930. I think they can be purchased new for around $700 a pair. Again, I'm not a huge fan of this microphone, but there's alot of people that think these sounds fantastic. If I had $1000, I think personally that I'd be looking strongly at that MC300 pair in the YS.

I also like the suggestion of Neumann km184 alot, but you're getting a little your budget there, unless you're lucky to find a pair for $800, which I have actually seen two sets of recently.

As far as preamps, your options for high quality are limited in the $300 range, so the Littlebox and Oade mod UA-5's, as I'd already suggested, are about as good of suggestions as you're gonna get. I suppose you might fall into an Sound Devices MP-2/Mixpre for $350, again if you're lucky, but personally I think the other preamps mentioned sound better than an MP-2.

BTW, not sure if you're aware, but Littlebox is made by a ts.com member, so that's one of the reasons they're both inexpensive and high quality; a) they're custom made for what we do, and b) he's not charging ts.com members alot of money/markup for manufacturing.

Big Perm · « **Reply #24 on:** April 04, 2010, 07:37:33 PM »

There is an Oade mod UA-5 in the YS right now for $200! I think this is a no brainer for the price range you are in. I still have mine and run as a back up rig and still love it. Tough to beat for the price...plus you get the A/D and the pre all in one.

(the ONLY reason i would take the ua-5 over the littlebox is for A/D processing)

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=133859.0

as for mics: Tonedeaf is correct (IMHO) the Microtech Gefell M300 matched pair in the YS are sick mics! This would put you back in the game in a big way. I personally would add a cheap bit-bucket and your on your way to some really nice tapes. (well i guess none of us really pull tapes anymore, but the lingo lives on $:-\$ )

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=132214.0

good luck with whatever you decide!
adam

it-goes-to-eleven · « **Reply #25 on:** April 04, 2010, 10:11:19 PM »

Folks are talking about good cheap bit buckets like they actually exist.

There are a number of excellent cheap recorders... but not bit buckets. But then again, I don't think there are that many good stand-alone a/d's. I question whether the ua5 a/d is as good as an r09. Same for the sbm.

Fried Chicken Boy · « **Reply #26 on:** April 05, 2010, 03:40:41 AM »

Quote from: Freelunch on April 04, 2010, 10:11:19 PM

Folks are talking about good cheap bit buckets like they actually exist.

There are a number of excellent cheap recorders... but not bit buckets. But then again, I don't think there are that many good stand-alone a/d's. I question whether the ua5 a/d is as good as an r09. Same for the sbm.

The OP stated that he would like to use a laptop computer as a recorder which led to the suggestions of the UA-5 as a pre and a/d converter over using the (most-likely) crappy a/d converter in the computer.

Speaking of which, I noticed that sparkey suggested using the Littlebox into a bit bucket. I do recall Jon mentioning in the LB thread about adding a/d conversion but has that become a reality and is it available now? I'm out of the loop.

Big Perm · « **Reply #27 on:** April 05, 2010, 10:17:41 AM »

Quote from: Freelunch on April 04, 2010, 10:11:19 PM

Folks are talking about good cheap bit buckets like they actually exist.

There are a number of excellent cheap recorders... but not bit buckets. But then again, I don't think there are that many good stand-alone a/d's. I question whether the ua5 a/d is as good as an r09. Same for the sbm.

Do you feel the a/d on the r-09 is better than the ua-5 that has been modded? It might be, i have never used the r-09...interesting.
a

what about the ACM marantz 660. From what i can tell it is a nice all in one for the price....$400 in YS right now (however, i believe this limits you to 16b)

it-goes-to-eleven · « **Reply #28 on:** April 05, 2010, 12:57:20 PM »

Quote from: Big Perm on April 05, 2010, 10:17:41 AM

Do you feel the a/d on the r-09 is better than the ua-5 that has been modded? It might be, i have never used the r-09...interesting.

Possibly, it is an unknown. That also depends on how good the analog outs are on the ua5. There were a couple of comps where the r09 did surprisingly well behind the v3 when compared against the v3's a/d.

But if the OP is willing to deal with a laptop, then he has his bitbucket.

charles · « **Reply #29 on:** April 05, 2010, 02:11:46 PM »

What about mics > AD-20 > Laptop?

If memory serves, can't a used AD-20 be had for pretty cheap used? Not sure how the ADC in this unit compares to the ones in the other units mentioned above, but if it's comparable wouldn't that allow for substantially more money to be allotted to the mics?

I should have checked the yard sale before I posted this to see if any AD-20 are for sale in there. I'll do that now.

**Update** Just checked yard sale and saw one going for $100. That would free up a lot of $ for mics. So, how much quality would be lost compared to the UA5 and others mentioned?

flipp · « **Reply #30 on:** April 05, 2010, 03:09:42 PM »

Using an AD20 would effectively limit you to 16 bits. While it ouputs 20bits it is basically truncated to 16. See the Zefiro or Denecke website for a more detailed explanation. Also realize the the AD20 does not supply phantom power. So you'll need to add a phantom supply as well as the AD20 if you decide to go that route. The Denecke PS2 is a good match for the AD20 but there are also other phantom supplies on the market.

Are you planning on using the laptop's built in sound or are you thinking of using a different soundcard like a VX Pocket?

Todd R · « **Reply #31 on:** April 05, 2010, 06:05:11 PM »

I just saw that fullcompass has got the Audio-Technica AT4051's for sale for $299 ea. At $600 a pair, this would be a great set of mics for your budget. They are very under-used in our circles, but they sound great and they also use interchangable capsules, so when you get more money available you can add in omni caps or hyper caps.

Also, one more strong vote for a littlebox, though it probably is a better choice if you were planning on a dedicated recorder, not a laptop.

Nick's Picks · « **Reply #32 on:** April 05, 2010, 07:04:36 PM »

that is a good price on those mics...

charles · « **Reply #33 on:** April 06, 2010, 10:31:27 AM »

Ok. You guys have convinced me to scratch the laptop. On further thought, considering everything that's been said on this thread, I'm thinking it really isn't worth it. I'm going to take all the great suggestions you guys have given me and come up with a few possible rig scenarios. I'll bring those scenarios back here and see what everyone thinks looks like the best option.

Jhurlbs81 · « **Reply #34 on:** April 06, 2010, 10:44:08 AM »

If you do need a bit bucket I have been using the Microtrack 2 with no issues whatsoever FWIW. The Microtrack gets a bad rap around here, but for writing a SPDIF stream reliably, the MT2 fits the bill IMO.

charles · « **Reply #35 on:** April 06, 2010, 10:47:14 AM »

Quote from: Jesse Hurlburt on April 06, 2010, 10:44:08 AM

If you do need a bit bucket I have been using the Microtrack 2 with no issues whatsoever FWIW. The Microtrack gets a bad rap around here, but for writing a SPDIF stream reliably, the MT2 fits the bill IMO.

Why the bad rap?

L Ron Hoover · « **Reply #36 on:** April 06, 2010, 12:17:41 PM »

Firmware glitches early on maybe? I don't get it either.
Great bitbucket here.

I've been using an original Microtrack for five or so years with no problems whatsoever.

Jhurlbs81 · « **Reply #37 on:** April 06, 2010, 12:26:06 PM »

Quote

Why the bad rap?

When the original came out people reported it had software bugs and would lock up periodically. There were other issues too that were slowly corrected through software updates. (FWIW I owned the original and never had any issues recording a SPDIF stream.)

The only current issue I'm aware of with the MT2 is the decks inability to continue recording if the SPDIF signal is lost. (If you turn off the A/D before you end the file on the MT you'll lose the file.) I understand this is an issue, but I always end my recording before I start shutting things down. Other members have experienced this issue while running an A/D off AC power. A dip in power caused the SPDIF signal to be lost and the MT cannot recover. If you know this you'll be fine. I suspect a lot of folks lost files by turning off the pre/AD before ending their files.

There may be other issues with the deck when it comes to the analog intputs and whatnot, but for simply recording a SPDIF signal the MT2 is all I need. YMMV.

Todd R · « **Reply #38 on:** April 06, 2010, 12:35:03 PM »

Yep, I think that is about it. I got a MT1 when they first came out and used it for several years. It worked ok for a low cost bit bucket. It was finicky though -- had to keep the spdif stream on and available from the moment you hit pause-record to when you ended the file, plus the internal battery was generally not robust enough to record a whole show and the MT was particular about when you connected/disconnected the external battery, etc.

Things like that -- to me it wasn't bad in particular, but was finicky and particular about how it needed to be connected, powered, used, etc, so it could be problematic in the field if you weren't careful.

The MT also came out with only 30v phantom available, not the typical (and originally spec'd) 48v, which left a bad taste for many people.

The original MT (not sure about the MTII), was really pretty noisy on the analog inputs, so it was much better suited as a bit bucket behind a UA5 or V3. Unless the MTII fixed these problems, I wouldn't recommend getting it if you plan on running it analog in from a Littlebox or SD MP2 or whatever.

it-goes-to-eleven · « **Reply #39 on:** April 06, 2010, 01:57:55 PM »

Quote from: Jesse Hurlburt on April 06, 2010, 12:26:06 PM

Quote
Why the bad rap?

When the original came out people reported it had software bugs and would lock up periodically. There were other issues too that were slowly corrected through software updates. (FWIW I owned the original and never had any issues recording a SPDIF stream.)

I still have my microtrack. New firmware or not, it is still a piece of sh*t. Worse, m-audio knew it when they released it, and they even chose to lie about the specs. We could go on about the specific flaws of the mt, but I don't see the point (Todd touches on some of the issues in his post). I cannot think of another piece of gear so poorly designed. In comparison, other handheld recorders "just work".

The mt2 apparently continues the idiocy with a built-in lithium battery.

Let's not forget that TS member spoogles' microtrack exploded in his hands after charging:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=64648.0

Jhurlbs81 · « **Reply #40 on:** April 06, 2010, 02:41:44 PM »

That's the first I've heard of an exploding cell in a microtrack. Interesting.

Yeah, I won't argue that the MT and MT2 are worthless when running line-in. (not enough phantom, tons of noise, etc, etc, etc.) But this is exactly how the thing gets a bad rap; people expect too much from an "all-in-one" plastic device the size of a pack of cigarettes. Manufacturers specifications are never accurate and always exaggerated.

What it can do, however, is reliably write a SPDIF stream providing your A/D can provide an uninterrupted SPDIF signal. MT haters love to hate, but I wouldn't bother running expensive front-end gear into a recorder I didn't have full confidence in.

Belexes · « **Reply #41 on:** April 06, 2010, 02:42:30 PM »

There have been more "problems with M-audio" gear on this board than one can shake a stick at.

it-goes-to-eleven · « **Reply #42 on:** April 06, 2010, 03:25:38 PM »

Quote from: Jesse Hurlburt on April 06, 2010, 02:41:44 PM

Manufacturers specifications are never accurate and always exaggerated.

Any examples? I am trying to think of any other product where that has been an issue on this board.

In this case, the magnitude makes it look like fraud.

They claimed analog specs that were better than the 722.

They claimed 48v phantom. The switch was even labeled "48v". But it was 30volts even before you connected a mic.

I think the reliability issues and "quirks" that impacted recordings were more serious... though not as serious as the "will it explode?"

Quote

What it can do, however, is reliably write a SPDIF stream providing your A/D can provide an uninterrupted SPDIF signal.

It sure would be nice if it could do that. But the list of quirks and gotchas is lengthy... And the posts from people who have encountered them are numerous.

Jhurlbs81 · « **Reply #43 on:** April 06, 2010, 06:30:19 PM »

gotchas?

StuStu · « **Reply #44 on:** April 06, 2010, 07:33:33 PM »

I too had the original MT and I recommend avoiding this company altogether for a recorder when Edirol's R-09 and R-09HR are proven to be quite reliable. Of course there are other small recorder options, I'm just mentioning the recorders I have personal experience with.

As for mics, why not find a used set of AKG 460's or AKG 451eb's? With a Littlebox? Wouldn't this be close to your budget?

Good luck whatever you decide!

Scooter123 · « **Reply #45 on:** April 06, 2010, 08:58:28 PM »

Don't even go to M-Audio. I've gone through a handful of M-Audio Fastrack Pro I/O's, three bad ones in a month, and customer service is the worst ever. 2 hours on hold. I hate them...........

Big Perm · « **Reply #46 on:** April 07, 2010, 10:42:28 AM »

Not to change the subject, but to address the concerns of the OP...what about The Geffell m300's > and Apogee MiniMe?

This would put you just over the $1000.00. Lets say 700-800 for the mics and 500 for the MME...1200-1300 and your recordings are going to SMOKE!!!! I love the MME, I still use mine everytime I run my gear!

just a thought.......my be too much $$$ and i completely understand i am pushing it here but if you could scrape up the extra dough you would be set IMHO...only update recorder at a later date if your not totally satisfied with the laptop
adam

sparkey · « **Reply #47 on:** April 07, 2010, 02:08:04 PM »

I've owned both M300's and KM184s and personally prefer the Neumanns to the Gefells. You should give them both a listen and decide which flavor you prefer.

Quote from: Big Perm on April 07, 2010, 10:42:28 AM

Not to change the subject, but to address the concerns of the OP...what about The Geffell m300's > and Apogee MiniMe? This would put you just over the $1000.00. Lets say 700-800 for the mics and 500 for the MME...1200-1300 and your recordings are going to SMOKE!!!! I love the MME, I still use mine everytime I run my gear!

just a thought.......my be too much $$$ and i completely understand i am pushing it here but if you could scrape up the extra dough you would be set IMHO...only update recorder at a later date if your not totally satisfied with the laptop
adam

Big Perm · « **Reply #48 on:** April 07, 2010, 03:03:44 PM »

I agree, but my only concern with the Neumanns is i havent seen them in the YS for his budget. He may have better luck on other sites ebay, gearl slutz etc. i am just trying to put something up there that is available now or often in the YS. just a thought...hell i ran Neumann 140's for 10 yrs before i just recently switched to schoeps
a

Quote from: sparkey on April 07, 2010, 02:08:04 PM

I've owned both M300's and KM184s and personally prefer the Neumanns to the Gefells. You should give them both a listen and decide which flavor you prefer.

Todd R · « **Reply #49 on:** April 07, 2010, 03:47:34 PM »

I love seeing how we always take rig questions like this and then go way over the budget.

Sorry, not to pick on you (and really I did it as well with the 4051 suggestion), but the m300's in the YS now are $900. $500 is a pretty low price on a MMe as well. So that's $1400, plus another $200+ for a recorder, and at least another $100 for all the other stuff, and we've basically doubled the OP's original budget.

Realistically, if you only have $1000 to spend, you should figure that stand, clamp, t-bar, mic cables, batteries, chargers, gear bag, etc will run $100-200, figure $100 at the very low end.

A recorder capable of running phantom mics or a recorder + preamp option will be $350-450 at the low end. Low end options might be the Oade mod 660 in the YS now for $400, or an iRiver ($110) + mod UA-5 ($225), or a littlebox preamp ($210) + an iRiver ($110) or a used 24bit recorder like an R-09 ($200). Give or take, figure the recorder or recorder+preamp is $400.

That leaves $500 for the mics. At that budget, I'd jump at a used pair of ADK a51TL's if you can find them. Otherwise, a set of the Busman BSC1 mics, or a used set of AKG 391 bluelines, or a pair of Audio-Technica AT4041's. If you can swing just a bit more for the mics ($600, putting you at $1100 or so total), get the AT4051's, or a used pair of AKG 461's, or a pair of Peluso's.

Bottom line, if you are putting together everything from scratch, I don't see how you can cut many more corners and pay less than about $500 for everything (recorder, preamp, stand, tbar, clamps, cables, bag, batteries, etc) other than the mics. So it seems to me that unless you can up your budget some, you probably working with ~$500 for your mics.

sparkey · « **Reply #50 on:** April 07, 2010, 04:26:33 PM »

I hear ya...I've always been in the camp of save all your sheckles and buy the nicest mics you can, followed by the cheapest preamp and bitbucket which will then be gradually upgraded. My rig is mk41>v2>722 and it's taken me 11 years to build it. I've had three co-owners of rigs over the years and, not that it doesn't have its challenges, that isn't a bad way to go either (twice as much rig for your money).

Quote from: Big Perm on April 07, 2010, 03:03:44 PM

I agree, but my only concern with the Neumanns is i havent seen them in the YS for his budget. He may have better luck on other sites ebay, gearl slutz etc. i am just trying to put something up there that is available now or often in the YS. just a thought...hell i ran Neumann 140's for 10 yrs before i just recently switched to schoeps
a

Quote from: sparkey on April 07, 2010, 02:08:04 PM
I've owned both M300's and KM184s and personally prefer the Neumanns to the Gefells. You should give them both a listen and decide which flavor you prefer.

Big Perm · « **Reply #51 on:** April 07, 2010, 08:09:25 PM »

Todd R you are absolutely correct... i looked up the m300 and i was wrong on the price...i tend to get carried away sometimes

oh well, i agree with all of your suggestions, but it was my understanding that he was set with the laptop as his recorder so he could put more $$$ into other stuff. I agree with the UA-5 suggestions i actually posted that earlier in the thread. I am trying to think of a nice mic combo with the UA-5....say he takes $100 for cables/bags/mounts + $225 for UA-5 that leaves $675 for mics....maybe these (AKG CK31 / LM3L / Active Microphone Set $500 OBO)
i havent listened to recordings from these mics in years, but it might be a good jumping off point AT 4041's are on ebay for $239 a piece right now so......

tcf · « **Reply #52 on:** April 07, 2010, 09:18:44 PM »

http://www.archive.org/details/nmas2010-02-05.flac16

Get the Violet Design Black Fingers. Best bang for the buck, I've owned two sets and the above link is the fingers paired with the PSP2. Dirk has these on sale right now in the OP's budget.

Check it out,

TF

sparkey · « **Reply #53 on:** April 07, 2010, 11:56:15 PM »

Quote from: Todd R on April 07, 2010, 03:47:34 PM

I'd jump at a used pair of ADK a51TL's if you can find them.

Excellent suggestion

Nick's Picks · « **Reply #54 on:** April 08, 2010, 07:31:08 AM »

new M-Audio Pulsar II matched pair kit: $300
I would put these up against the Peluso (card cap), Beyer MC930s, Studio Proj. C4...and just about most other mics out there shy of the highest end from any given company. Very under-rated, non utilized mics in our circle.

used phantom supplying deck in the YS: $600 (a steep average. there are less expensive, and more, but finding something in that range should work, even if its separate preamp/hand held recorder or just a phantom supply > hand held deck). In any case, easily done. I'd buy that Oade Mod Marantz PCM660 in a blink. its a very impressive sounding deck. Yes, limited to 16bit...but who gives a shit. you know what you're doing and know how to pull a great recording no matter how many bits of headroom you have at your disposal.
The Oade or Bussman Mod UA-5s ain't no slouch either..., and I'd pick up a Wmod version for short money and be quite happy w/the sound.

Those two items, and you're under budget. Buy some concert tickets.
Also, go to the Archive and start listening to all these microphones we are suggesting. you might find something you fancy.
My first rec. was for a Studio Proj. LSD2 large diaphragm stereo mic. Very versatile...., XY, Blumlein, M-S..., you can carve just about anything you want out of the thin air once you get to know and love the "DONKEY".

can you solder?
go to markertek or parts express (or radio shack for that matter) and order up some cable and XLRs and/or 3.5mm plugs to make yourself). The dayton "low noise" mic cable is excellent, and very inexpensive. You could make a 20' pair..in techflex sleeve via Hydra Style...for maybe $20.

jlykos · « **Reply #55 on:** April 08, 2010, 04:51:45 PM »

My suggestion for this:

AKG 391 or 393: ~$400 (used)
Naiant Littlebox: ~$250 (new)
Sony PCM-M10 or Edirol R-09HR: ~250 (used)
Canare StarQuad cables: ~$50 (maybe more, maybe less; haven't priced these in a long time)
Stand, mount, clamp, windscreens: $100 (all used)
Use a backpack as a gear bag until you can get something better

You're $50 over budget. Sorry for that. Hopefully you can save a few bucks with some of the used gear.

illconditioned · « **Reply #56 on:** April 08, 2010, 05:02:10 PM »

My suggestion would be:
Studio projects C4 (200-250, used, here on TS.com)
Fostex FR2LE, 400-450, here or ebay. (*)

(*) note this deck normally retails for up to 600, but I bought here for $400. I think some ebay sellers were the source of this originally.

If you get serious about recording, move to a set of Beyerdynamic MC930, should be around $800 new or a bit less used.

Richard

Big Perm · « **Reply #57 on:** April 08, 2010, 07:05:05 PM »

ALL wonderful suggestions...let us know what you decide to do
adam

it-goes-to-eleven · « **Reply #58 on:** April 09, 2010, 12:18:07 PM »

A rig based around used 4061s would actually hit your budget.

I've long felt the 4061's would be the basis of my "if I sold everything" rig... I stopped using my C4's when I got them because they blew away the C4's.. Even in bars... I've run them open (split and j-disc) many times. They will reward thought in setup with much better recording quality.

I don't like the low end akgs much.. especially the hypers. They're pricey for the quality. But, again, I don't like many low end mics (especially hypers).

And regarding the r09 vs r09hr.. we have yet to hear a comp that demonstrates that the r09hr actually sounds as good as the r09. Just saying...

bgalizio · « **Reply #59 on:** April 09, 2010, 02:32:47 PM »

Quote from: Freelunch on April 09, 2010, 12:18:07 PM

And regarding the r09 vs r09hr.. we have yet to hear a comp that demonstrates that the r09hr actually sounds as good as the r09. Just saying...

Maybe not the best comp in the world, and line-in only, but I did run this one a while back:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=104920.0;all

Source files are gone. Not sure I still have them, and I don't have the R-09 to recreate this comp.

Kush · « **Reply #60 on:** April 09, 2010, 05:20:31 PM »

All items currently available in the yard sale as of right now:

Bit-Bucket: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=132688.0
Microtrack II ($150-$200)
Microtrack II with all original accessories & Box. Also have a 8gig CF card to go with it. Not sure what these are selling for now. It's in great condition. Not used very much other than a few SBD patches. Open to offers.

Pre and A/D: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=133859.0
Oade P-mod UA-5
Edirol UA-5 with Oade Presence modification: (purchased used for ~$550 08/2005) $200 + shipping
Has some scratches on top of unit from before I bought it.
Unit has worked flawlessly since I purchased from taperssection member jessedscott.
I believe I am the second owner.
Includes home-made battery cable & (2)9V/5400mAh Lithium Ion batteries (“walmart batteries”) with 1 charger. I also have the driver disc & manual.

Digital Cable: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=134120.0
rca spdif digi-cable
Canare 3' rca spdif digi-cable. Asking $10 shipped or Hosa 3' rca spfid digi-cable. Asking $10 shipped or Monster 3' Datalink IDL100 rca spdif digi-cable. Asking $15 shipped

Stereo Mic: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=132680.0
Studio Projects LSD-2
Studio Proj. LSD2 (latest version). case/cables/mount... will sell for $475 Original case, shockmount, cable..etc etc.

SP LSD-2 (shockmount & cables included) > Oade P-mod UA-5 (batteries, cable, and charger included) > coaxial > MT II (8 GB CF card included) = $835-$885

Add a stand, bag, and battery solution for the MTII with the rest of your budget.

illconditioned · « **Reply #61 on:** April 09, 2010, 05:40:36 PM »

If you want on "open" setup, I highly recommend Fostex FR2-LE. This can be had (via ebay) for $400 or so, Retail price is $600, so avoid that. Studio projects C4 approx $200 used.

If you want a portable/stealth setup, just get Sony PCM-M10 ($350-400) and some Countryman B3 ($150 each, pigtails). Solder a miniplug on these and run plug-in-power. Much nicer sound than DPA 406x imo.

Both of these are simple all-in-one systems. Simplest if you can avoid battery box, preamp, etc.

Richard

rastasean · « **Reply #62 on:** April 09, 2010, 05:45:41 PM »

Quote from: illconditioned on April 09, 2010, 05:40:36 PM

If you want on "open" setup, I highly recommend Fostex FR2-LE. This can be had (via ebay) for $400 or so, Retail price is $600, so avoid that. Studio projects C4 approx $200 used.

If you want a portable/stealth setup, just get Sony PCM-M10 ($350-400) and some Countryman B3 ($150 each, pigtails). Solder a miniplug on these and run plug-in-power. Much nicer sound than DPA 406x imo.

Both of these are simple all-in-one systems. Simplest if you can avoid battery box, preamp, etc.

Richard

thats quite high. try $280.http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/638090-REG/Sony_PCM_M10_BLACK_PCM_M10_Portable_Audio_Recorder.html

throw in $10-30 for a micro SD card if the internal 4 gigs is not large enough.

illconditioned · « **Reply #63 on:** April 09, 2010, 06:33:16 PM »

Quote from: rastasean on April 09, 2010, 05:45:41 PM

Quote from: illconditioned on April 09, 2010, 05:40:36 PM
If you want on "open" setup, I highly recommend Fostex FR2-LE. This can be had (via ebay) for $400 or so, Retail price is $600, so avoid that. Studio projects C4 approx $200 used.

If you want a portable/stealth setup, just get Sony PCM-M10 ($350-400) and some Countryman B3 ($150 each, pigtails). Solder a miniplug on these and run plug-in-power. Much nicer sound than DPA 406x imo.

Both of these are simple all-in-one systems. Simplest if you can avoid battery box, preamp, etc.

Richard

thats quite high. try $280.http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/638090-REG/Sony_PCM_M10_BLACK_PCM_M10_Portable_Audio_Recorder.html

throw in $10-30 for a micro SD card if the internal 4 gigs is not large enough.

OK, you're right. Anyway, my point is, decide if you want portable or full rig, then get an all-in-one solution.

Richard

sunjan · « **Reply #64 on:** April 10, 2010, 12:48:39 PM »

Quote from: illconditioned on April 09, 2010, 06:33:16 PM

OK, you're right. Anyway, my point is, decide if you want portable or full rig, then get an all-in-one solution.

Richard

I'm with Richard on this one. Since you're mainly running open, get an all-in-one, there are plenty of 24-bit units that include phantom these days:
DR-100 $300 new
FR2-LE $400 used
PMD671 stock $400 used (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=125266)
If you don't mind 16-bit, there are some very nice sounding gear on the used market too (modded 660, 670 around $400-500, as people has pointed out earlier):
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=131298

Granted, as Kush said, in the same price range ($350-450 total) you could get a modded UA-5 + MTII, which maybe gives you an even better sounding rig for the same money. It all depends how mcuh you value simplicity and ease of use.

This leaves $500-700 for mics and accessories. Take your pick :-)

spyder9 · « **Reply #65 on:** April 11, 2010, 11:11:07 AM »

AT4051b mics, BIN - on ebay for $500 shipped

http://cgi.ebay.com/Audio-Technica-AT4051a-Studio-Microphones-AT-4051a-4051_W0QQitemZ230457498058QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item35a85659ca#ht_6410wt_939

Marantz PMD661, used - on ebay for $469 + shipping.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Marantz-PMD661-Portable-SD-Recorder-MINT_W0QQitemZ290423216620QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item439e9299ec#ht_1230wt_1165

That's pretty close to $1,000. Your budget

lastubbe · « **Reply #66 on:** April 11, 2010, 11:08:14 PM »

I agree with the 4051b>PMD661.

That would be my choice with a grand to spend.

Fried Chicken Boy · « **Reply #67 on:** April 12, 2010, 01:13:16 AM »

Quote from: spyder9 on April 11, 2010, 11:11:07 AM

AT4051b mics, BIN - on ebay for $500 shipped

Quote from: lastubbe on April 11, 2010, 11:08:14 PM

I agree with the 4051b>PMD661.

That would be my choice with a grand to spend.

+2 on those mics with the PMD661: a solid rig capable of some excellent pulls. That's also an exceptional price on a new pair of AT4051's. Not long ago that's what you would've paid for one of those mics.

sunjan · « **Reply #68 on:** April 12, 2010, 05:56:07 AM »

+3 for the PMD661, forget what I said about older Marantz units, at this price you can't go wrong. There's even another one out for $459:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150432900279

Big Perm · « **Reply #69 on:** April 12, 2010, 10:59:59 AM »

click on the link for the 4051's...it looks to me like the quantity is 1 for 499.55. so if this is true we are over budget again
a

Quote from: spyder9 on April 11, 2010, 11:11:07 AM

AT4051b mics, BIN - on ebay for $500 shipped

http://cgi.ebay.com/Audio-Technica-AT4051a-Studio-Microphones-AT-4051a-4051_W0QQitemZ230457498058QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item35a85659ca#ht_6410wt_939

Marantz PMD661, used - on ebay for $469 + shipping.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Marantz-PMD661-Portable-SD-Recorder-MINT_W0QQitemZ290423216620QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item439e9299ec#ht_1230wt_1165

That's pretty close to $1,000. Your budget

flipp · « **Reply #70 on:** April 12, 2010, 11:17:34 AM »

Quote from: Big Perm on April 12, 2010, 10:59:59 AM

click on the link for the 4051's...it looks to me like the quantity is 1 for 499.55. so if this is true we are over budget again
a

Quote from: spyder9 on April 11, 2010, 11:11:07 AM
AT4051b mics, BIN - on ebay for $500 shipped

http://cgi.ebay.com/Audio-Technica-AT4051a-Studio-Microphones-AT-4051a-4051_W0QQitemZ230457498058QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item35a85659ca#ht_6410wt_939

Marantz PMD661, used - on ebay for $469 + shipping.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Marantz-PMD661-Portable-SD-Recorder-MINT_W0QQitemZ290423216620QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item439e9299ec#ht_1230wt_1165

That's pretty close to $1,000. Your budget

from the description in the AT auction linked above:
Package Contents

2) Audio-Technica AT4051a Condenser Microphones
2) Nova Musik Neutrik mic cables

Big Perm · « **Reply #71 on:** April 12, 2010, 01:09:29 PM »

aahh thank you! i looked several time and for some reason did not see that

thanks for the correct information...thats a great deal for 2 brand new mics!!!
go for it!!
a

flipp · « **Reply #72 on:** April 12, 2010, 02:11:24 PM »

buried about halway down the page and then to the right of an image; not very easy to find

whoever is responsible of Nova Music's ebay listings needs to do a better job describing individual items for sale and not make it look less like a giant advertisement for the company

agreed it's a great deal; the OP could do much worse for the same price

so that's about half the budget, just add a recorder and your basic rig is complete - just add shocks/mic clips and a clamp and you're good to go and then gradually add a few items like a standand and a dedicated bag for a fully self-contained rig

dizzy_geek · « **Reply #73 on:** April 17, 2010, 07:00:58 AM »

Quote from: spyder9 on April 11, 2010, 11:11:07 AM

AT4051b mics, BIN - on ebay for $500 shipped

http://cgi.ebay.com/Audio-Technica-AT4051a-Studio-Microphones-AT-4051a-4051_W0QQitemZ230457498058QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item35a85659ca#ht_6410wt_939

It looks like those are the AT4051"a" mics which are discontinued:

http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wired_mics/198fc1e1b1ff2c2f/index.html

and here's the AT4051"b":

http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wired_mics/7a24561e8865117b/index.html

Still seems like a pretty good price on the "a" model. I wonder how they compare considering the specs are pretty similar.

Fried Chicken Boy · « **Reply #74 on:** April 18, 2010, 03:28:26 AM »

I wouldn't be too concerned about which model of Audio Technica 4051's they are (discontinued vs. current) as they all use the same interchangeable caps and it's the bodies that might be (slightly) different. Personally, I've been using a set of "cheapie" discontinued AT3031's for a few years now and you'll take those when you pry them from my cold, dead fingers.

Granted, they are a different mic and don't have the changeable caps, but a lot of folks would rate the 4051's as a better microphone. At the risk of repeating what's been said in this forum many times, there are plenty of shows on the LMA to listen to/compare.

Nick's Picks · « **Reply #75 on:** April 18, 2010, 08:41:33 AM »

there are sooo many great points of advise here.
we should make a sticky !

Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B) · « **Reply #76 on:** April 18, 2010, 09:26:41 AM »

Quote from: Nick's Picks on April 18, 2010, 08:41:33 AM

there are sooo many great points of advise here.
we should make a sticky !

Don't we have a thread with popular rigs at different price points. If not I think it would be cool to put one together.

lastubbe · « **Reply #77 on:** April 18, 2010, 09:36:29 AM »

Quote from: Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B) on April 18, 2010, 09:26:41 AM

Quote from: Nick's Picks on April 18, 2010, 08:41:33 AM
there are sooo many great points of advise here.
we should make a sticky !

Don't we have a thread with popular rigs at different price points. If not I think it would be cool to put one together.

That would have been REALLY helpful to me when I got back in the game last summer.

People who get in or back in after many years likely haven't been paying attention for years and don't know what is what.

Brian Skalinder · « **Reply #78 on:** April 18, 2010, 09:44:51 AM »

There's a post in the Where To Begin section with loads of gear choices at various price points, but it's hopelessly out of date. If anyone wants to update it, or produce a new post of similar focus, feel free. Simply PM me and we'll talk about potential options.

Author Topic: Getting Back in the Game / Best Rig For $800-$1000? (Read 17606 times)

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