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Author Topic: Basic checklist for my first recording?  (Read 20127 times)

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Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2013, 06:19:47 PM »
http://musiced.nafme.org/resources/copyright-center/copyright-law-what-music-teachers-need-to-know/

1 archival copy for the teacher is apparently permitted. 

The actual fees for making a recording for the students aren't terribly expensive, but it can be extremely time intensive to track down the copyright holders to get permissions. 

 

Offline capnhook

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2013, 06:25:58 PM »
What's frustrating is that the moment you post the shows online, copyright treats that the same as if you were doing it to make a buck on the recording and not the unique performance. There has to be a middle ground there beyond 30-second music clips.

I call bullshit.
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Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2013, 10:02:51 PM »
Copyright is not concerned with the profitability of your use of the copyrighted material, only whether you have permission to use the material.  It's similar to the property concept that if person A owns a piece of real estate, the rest of us can't use that real estate without the owner's permission. 

We're living in an age where people are putting copyrighted material all over youtube, but that doesn't mean its a wise thing to do or that there won't be consequences later. 

There is also the question whether one has the appropriate releases from each of the students to use their photos and performance of the material.  That's another issue besides the issue of use of the copyrighted music itself.

If you're going to do this for a school or other organization, you need to be sure you have all the appropriate clearances in place if you want to protect yourself and the organization.   



 

Offline achalsey

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2013, 12:14:19 AM »
We're living in an age where people are putting copyrighted material all over youtube, but that doesn't mean its a wise thing to do or that there won't be consequences later. 


But many of them clearly state in the description that they do not own the copyright and mean no infringement by posting, so obviously they're exempt from any legal consequences.  :P

Offline earmonger

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2013, 03:03:01 AM »
"Obviously" is not legally. They are below the radar but the disclaimer does nothing. .

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #20 on: October 09, 2013, 02:09:09 AM »
Just coming back to this thread. The recording turned out well despite HVAC roar and one of the B-5s developing a buzz. Both issues were partly excised in software later. I'd just as soon get another pair of something else relatively inexpensive but that's a subject for elsewhere.

F.O.Bean: Nope, although I did suggest posting to LMA without objection. I only made a few CDs for the band director. Oh, and one for the harpist's mom who whined during setup my mic stand might be in the way of her video despite the obvious fact she had the freedom to make a decent video from any location, whereas I didn't have the same opportunity by putting mics just any 'ol place. And "Yes" was the answer to her question when she asked if the band director knew what I was doing. I told him about it later and he laughed.

And thank you earmonger. Yes, good links there. The mechanical license is a weird one. My understanding is that it's tied to distribution, not recording per se, but that you can't effectively record without someone (even if it's just the recordist) listening later, so there's your distribution ... I understand "CYA" but if a band gives me permission and I don't distribute publicly I think I'd feel OK which is to say, "safe." And I now understand that doing the work for free means nothing.

I have potential opportunities coming up to record a university ensemble, a professional big band and more high school shows. All of these would be permission granted/non-stealth with the intention of helping to promote their efforts.

Ideally, I think live recordings could/should be used for promotion towards getting people involved and going to shows be they high school or professional bands. What's frustrating is that the moment you post the shows online, copyright treats that the same as if you were doing it to make a buck on the recording and not the unique performance. There has to be a middle ground there beyond 30-second music clips.

Here was the stand with mics. Had them aimed a little too far down perhaps but it was OK. I was stationed stage-right out of view. The only cables I have are 100' and way too long here.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/181646/EHS%20mics.JPG

The mics look like you had them positioned pretty well ;) I would love to hear your very first recording, even if its just a 1 minute clip ;) Keep up the good work and running the mics like you did probably got a fine recording. But I think you are right, the mics do look like they're pointing downward a bit much! Other than that, looks great bro 8)
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Offline LikeASong

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #21 on: October 09, 2013, 03:38:53 PM »
Well, that's quite a central obstacle :P But yeah, the harpist mother could move around while your mics needed to be placed at a safe, well centered spot.
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Offline acidjack

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #22 on: October 09, 2013, 04:44:38 PM »
We're living in an age where people are putting copyrighted material all over youtube, but that doesn't mean its a wise thing to do or that there won't be consequences later. 


But many of them clearly state in the description that they do not own the copyright and mean no infringement by posting, so obviously they're exempt from any legal consequences.  :P

I think it's more of a cost/benefit analysis by rights holders as to whether they want to receive the mechanical royalties paid by YouTube or not. YouTube's ads generate the funds to allow them to make payments to the actual rights holders -- a huge difference from, say a bittorrent site.
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Offline RemotelyLocated

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2013, 08:09:22 PM »
Here are some brief MP3 sample clips of four of the songs that show the dynamic range of the performance. Some songs were full band, many were a subset of that, and yet others were just one or three instruments.

In retrospect I don't know why I chose the Behringer's cardioid capsules (B-5) instead of the better-sounding omnis. Maybe I was worried about HVAC noise, which DID add a dull roar to everything and kill detail I had to partially excise in software later. Or maybe I was worried about crowd noise? Or maybe I read with ORTF you should use cards? I honestly can't remember. The B-5s were used without the rolloff filter nor pad.

In double retrospect it seems I could have done OK with the mics not so high in the air. Again, I guess I thought they should be up high. I'd say they were about 9ft above the stage?

*****************
I plan to be back recording the band again and if I can get the friggin' choir director to answer my emails, record the choir. But I'll always be at stage lip as shown and want to know what other mic types or configurations might be better?

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2013, 08:49:01 PM »
Use omnis if you have them, spacing them as far apart as you can manage on your single stand.
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Offline RemotelyLocated

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #25 on: October 14, 2013, 08:57:40 PM »
... meaning, A-B or in one of the X-Y variants? Thanks!

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2013, 12:38:44 AM »
Generally, for this type of stereo recording, the more directional the mic pattern the less spacing you want between mics. [edit] I think it's probably better stated the opposite way: the less directional the microphone pattern, the more spacing you'll want between microphones.  In grossly simplified terms, X/Y places the microphones as close together as possible and might be an appropriate choice if using hypercardioid or figure-8 microphones; cardioid microphones generally work well in near-spaced configurations like ORTF (which is only ORTF if you use cardioids), and omnidirectional microphones work best with more spacing between them.  That's generally referred to as A-B.

Because there is no absolute answer for how much spacing is correct, because some will prefer more spacing than others, and because most recordists don't have an easy way of adjusting mic spacing exactly to whatever they would like it to be and are usually pretty limited in how much spacing they can actually achieve, my advice is to use whatever contraption you can assemble to safely and securely rig your omnis as far apart from each other as you can on the top of your stand.  If you have the capability to do so, you can play around with adjusting the spacing on different dates and listen to the differences, settling on what you like best, but as a starting point, as far apart as you can manage is best for this.  We can throw suggestions and numbers and explanations at you, but trying it and listening to the difference is the best way to figure it out.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 09:51:55 AM by Gutbucket »
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Offline RemotelyLocated

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2013, 06:49:03 AM »
I'm sensing a rough decision matrix is used here, assuming a certain level of experience.

For example, omins sound better, or pick up more completely due to the close proximity to the band, therefore ORTF is out.

 ... I'm not wanting to short-circuit the experimentation but it helps to have a plan of understanding just the same. :) And yes I have some other reading I'll be doing.

A few days ago I was sure I wanted another, nicer set of SDC cardioids but now you've got me thinking not so much.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #28 on: October 15, 2013, 11:28:19 AM »
Omnis would be my first choice for that particular recording situation anyway, so before spending money on gear, I suggest using the microphones you already have first, especially if recording acoustic bands and chorus’ in that hall is your primary focus at this point.

Your assessment is accurate- to my thinking there is a decision matrix I sort of run through that’s developed partly by experience and partly by resources like this site, but it is multidimensional and goes different ways depending on various things: some revolve around the nature of the recording environment and the music, some have to do with microphone patterns and stereo configurations, some the attributes of your particular equipment, and then there is practicality, inclination, preference, budget, etc.  It’s all interdependent and each of those things influences the decision matrix. That’s all true, but it doesn’t really point you in any immediate direction, it’s mostly just a warning against simple cut and dry answers taken at face value and a good philosophical basis to work from.

Here’s a few more-concrete things that most will agree on that to get you going:

The most important thing is good microphone location; in this situation, you already have a pretty good handle on that. 

Concert recording is not like home recording or most studio recording.  Most information you’ll find on the internet outside of this site deals with home or studio recording.  There is some information on the old fashioned way of doing classical recording with a single pair of microphones, which is more applicable to concert recording in general. That’s even more applicable for you in this situation than it is for people around here who are recording bands in bars.

Typically with inexpensive microphones, omnis simply sound better and more natural than cardioids, ignoring all other factors which make choice of one microphone pickup pattern more appropriate than another. So if that is what you have available, and if the situation allows for them, omnis are often the better choice.  I would not hesitate to use the omnis you have to record in the situation you’ve described.

Cardioids are more forgiving in getting a decent recording in any generic recording situation.  ORTF is one of the best ‘all purpose’ cardioid microphone configurations and is easy to recommend as a good starting point for most situations.  It might not be the best choice, but usually isn’t terrible.  Most concert tapers that only own only one microphone pattern own a pair of cardioids and use them in near-spaced configurations similar to ORTF.

I’ll post later with a more fleshed out hierarchy of what’s important, but even though there are things with are more basic, check out the paper titled “The Stereo Zoom” by Michael Williams.  It explains the stereo relationship between microphone pickup pattern, spacing and angle between two microphones and some (not all) of the important implications of those relationships.  It describes a conceptual continuum from A-B spaced omnis to coincident X/Y figure-8 microphones.  ORTF and the other common microphone configurations you’ll read about around here such as DIN and NOS fall  somewhere in the middle of that continuum.  The Stereo Zoom both conceptually describes the relationships and offers a direct way of choosing an angle/pattern/spacing relationship for a specific situation.  It’s a useful tool for many of us, but I’m mostly recommending it for developing an understanding of the concept, more than using it to select a specific steup.  Do a search here at TS for threads on it and for links to the paper which is available free on line.  If you have trouble finding them, I’ll post links for you.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 11:53:39 AM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Basic checklist for my first recording?
« Reply #29 on: October 15, 2013, 12:14:24 PM »
Generally, omnis are good when the room/concert hall sounds good and when the sound is not hindered by other problems like HVAC/People coughing/etc. 

When the room doesn't have good acoustics or you need to isolate the desired sound from the noise around it, then directional mics are more useful.

It's often useful to have a pair of cardoids and a pair of omnis.  Then you can blend to taste. 

The Williams paper is useful as a starting reference. 

For determining your actual mic placement, good isolation headphones are useful.   They enable you to listen to what the mics are picking up as you try different positions. Otherwise, you're sort of making a guess, maybe an educated guess, at what you may be recording.   

 

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