Topic: On stage mic positioning?

[leshlush]

I want to apologize in advance, I know that I've started way to many threads in concerns to a project I have today, but I just want to make sure that I have as much info going into it as possible as I've never run this type of set up... I know that practice and trial and error is the best way to learn, but there's so much combined knowledge and experience on this board that it really helps goiing into a new situation feeling as comfortable as possible...

That being said, I'm running a 4 mic mix today... See my other post  http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=76733.0, the only difference from my previous post and diagram is that I'm taking Brian's suggestion and splitting my audience signal from the AKG 451s and running one into the R09 and the other into the UA5 with the C4s... I'm running 2 sources (1 just audience and 1 audience+on-stage) just in case the multi-mic mix doesn't come out, I'll at least have my audience source...

Beacuse I don't have any on-stage mic'ing experience, I have a few questions about placement...

First of all, I'll be taping a 4 piece(keys, drums, guitar, and bass) electric jamband who, if anything are more rock-n-roll than anything else... There will be a set of floor monitors on the front of the stage... It's a relatively small venue, but the sound is always very loud, especially when these boys play...

I will be running a set of AKG 451 (cards) in DIN from DFC, 10 to 20 ft back...

I also have a set of SP C4s that I plan to run onstage...

Here are my questions:

I had planned to run my omni caps and do onstage split omni's but would I be better of doing a 4 mic-mix using all cards(2 audience, 2 on-stage)?

If I run the omni's will they cause more of a problem than the cards as far as feedback through the monitiors? Probably not b/c no matter what my mics won't be causing a loop through the system, but I thought I should ask...

From a prev suggestion, I'll be running the on-stage mics about 3 to 4 ft high, (and I know with omni's for every foot from your source, you split them three) but where should they be placed? In front of the monitors? behind the monitors? as far from the band as possible? as close to the band as possible? One on each side of the stage ? DFC?

As well, if I run the omni's, should I run them horizontal(pointed towards the band) or vertically(to capture more just the room sound) or where omni's capture sound somewhat spherically 360 degrees, does it even really matter? I'm not very familiar w/ running omni's, I usually just run 1 set of cards and occassionally I've run some "on the spot" and some 2 source post matrix's using my cards and the soundboard...

Even in this situation, I'm just running the on-satge mics to reinforce my audience mics, so I expect to run the on-stage mics lower in the mix... Would you suggest doing otherwise?

To be safe,I'll be running my pads on the on-stage mics but really, would this even be necessary as the sound on the stage in theory shouldn't be any louder (if not quieter) than the overall room... But I'd hate to overload my mics... Any further suggestions?

Thanks again folks, much appreciated...

And sorry, I'm probably becoming netorious for these long-winded multi question posts... I just want to feel confident in what I'm doing and want to provide you folks w/ as much info as possible so that you can properly direct me... As always, I appreciate any and all feedback...

[Swampy]

There really are a lot of factors that go into this, and unfortunately, no exact methods. IMO A good on-stage tape in the mark of a truly good taper/engineer. IMO, its one of toughest things to get to sound really good.

As far as cards vs. omnis goes, thats really a judgment call like everything else. It really depends on the venue and situation. I've had situations where omnis work really well, and others that they don't. IME, venues tend to have a real dead spot for omnis. if you are in a large room, if you are just at stage lip, sometimes the tape can be very boomy and weird sounding because you are getting weird verb from being just behind the stacks. Also, talkative people in the front row can ruin a stage tape, especially if mics are at their mouth level. 

My experience with stage taping is try to direct your mics away from the drums. Even if you have amps cranked, drums tend to be very overpowering. Of course there are situations that that isn't true, but that seems to be about my experience. IMO 3-4' high seems a bit high, I usally run a little lower maybe 1-3', but again, this all depends on how the band is set up. As far as monitors goes, thats another judgment call that there is no answer to. Really depends. Again, sometimes with omnis behind the stacks and behind the monitors can be a real dead spot...

I would probably run the mics pointed towards the band. Omnis are only directional in the high frequencies, but as you are using the on-stage source to augment an audience source, you'll probably have enough room sound already. As far as where you physically set the mics up, thats impossible to say without knowing how the band is set up. Try to find a spot that will create both a nice balance of instruments and also a nice stereo image. Though, you probably want to think more in terms of a nice balance between instruments than stereo image when doing rock band on-stage... You can fudge with the stereo image in post...

I know I really probably didn't give you a whole lot of answers, but IME unfortunately stage taping is a lot of experimentation, and luck (and some experience doesn't hurt either). The only way you can get it is to go out there and do it. When you set up your mics, try to visualize what they will be hearing, thats a lot more critical with onstage than any other kind of taping really... If you need more help, let me know.

[leshlush]

Thanks Swampy... I'm going in time for load-in and soundcheck so hoppefully I can quickly try a few things out...

+T for your response

[Chanher]

Hopefully you get this before soundcheck, but that is a GREAT opportunity to get your recording dialed in. Record the soundcheck and make adjustments.

Otherwise:

IME, venues tend to have a real dead spot for omnis. if you are in a large room, if you are just at stage lip, sometimes the tape can be very boomy and weird sounding because you are getting weird verb from being just behind the stacks. Also, talkative people in the front row can ruin a stage tape, especially if mics are at their mouth level.

 

My experience with stage taping is try to direct your mics away from the drums.

I no longer run onstage omni's indoors. Boomy and weird are two words I would use to describe them. I also ran outdoor onstage omni's for a bluegrass band, it was still too boomy/muddy for my tastes. If you are set on omni's, I would recommend a HPF in post.

My best results for a rock band was cards center DIN. It was a rock trio with drums in center. Very consistent mix results since the mics point outwards towards the amps and the drums are a little off-axis. I often will adjust the mics so they are pointing right at the amps.
But I see that you have the keys to also contend with. If I were you, I would find the instrument weakest in the mix, and try to capture that the best with your onstage mics. If nothing stands out as weak, I would also consider supplementing the lead instrument(s) by just putting a mic directly on them and later mixing to your aud.

[inoutoffocus]

My best results for a rock band was cards center DIN. It was a rock trio with drums in center. Very consistent mix results since the mics point outwards towards the amps and the drums are a little off-axis. I often will adjust the mics so they are pointing right at the amps.
But I see that you have the keys to also contend with. If I were you, I would find the instrument weakest in the mix, and try to capture that the best with your onstage mics. If nothing stands out as weak, I would also consider supplementing the lead instrument(s) by just putting a mic directly on them and later mixing to your aud.

qft!!

[leshlush]

Thanks folks for the advice... +Ts all around

[F.O.Bean]

mics centered/DIN have given me great results

[Chanher]

how'd it turn out?

[leshlush]

I just got to listen to it a few minutes ago for the first time and unfortunately, I hadn't read the suggestions before making it out yesterday and as suggested the 4-mic mix with on-stage split omni's turned out pretty boomy and weird... Thank goodness I also split and ran a recording of just the audience mics, cause it seems to have come out great... The AKG 451s were a perfect match for the room and the band... It was the first time I ran the AKG 451s (they were rentals) I usually just un my C4s, and too say the least, I really enjoy them... I had read that thjey can at times be a little bright but for the band and the room it was a perfect fit...

Who knows, maybe once I get a chance to do a little post-work on the multi-mic mix, it may turn out better than I assume, but right now it doesn't sound so great...

You live, you learn...

Definitely a great learning experience and that's half the reason I tried it in the first place...

[wbrisette]

Who knows, maybe once I get a chance to do a little post-work on the multi-mic mix, it may turn out better than I assume, but right now it doesn't sound so great...

From my experience, I've found that if you use on-stage mics, you must mix those mics down. If you're running a pure audience tape, then your mics from the PA will be probably 85% of your mix, maybe more. Because I use a bunch of sources for things whenever possible, and don't work in percentages, my mixes tend to have those mics up more in my mix. But, I usually have not only 2 omni's on-stage, but 2 channels from the board, 2 more omni's back in the crowd, and 2 more cards in the crowd. What kills you is the delay. You MUST get it right, or you're hosed (your recording will sound like mud).

I'm finally getting around to mastering a festival that Lee and I worked on for the promoter, here in Austin where I ran 2 mics on-stage, plus the 4 mics and 2 board mix channels. Here is a sample from Grady: http://homepage.mac.com/wayneb/ColdPoison.mp3

(note: the odd sound you hear during the joke is due to a noisy board and punching in an out of certain effects on the board).

Wayne

[Gedit]

i found a program called har-bal that does a great job of eq'ing the occasional tape that has boom or "weirdness" on it

www.har-bal.com

[vwmule]

Here's an on stage I did over the weekend with the LSD2, running blumlein. Came out great. I placed it in the middle of the stage, which is nearly level with the floor. The monitors are on ceiling, facing the stage.


http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=503815

[Nick's Picks]

I like coincident techniques myself.  blumlein!!!!!!!

[todd e]

i ran my first onstage on sunday for lotus.  no singing, monitors out in front of band (on floor) and all the band were using their amps to all instruments.

i decided to run NOS, with the mk21's, sub-cards.  at 1' high, right about the effects pedal, dfc.  i pointed the capsules forward, and angled up a bit to steer clear of the pedals.  it turned out great, IMO. 

http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=503851

[Church-Audio]

Thanks folks for the advice... +Ts all around

I personally do not know why ANYONE would run a onstage mic for a amplified performance the sound on stage always sucks! I mean I have spent 20 years as a live sound engineer I have done both monitors and front of house and in all my years I have heard maybe one or two shows that sounded really good on stage with a great balance. So IMO lose the on stage mics I know I am going to get flak for this pardon the pun....