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Author Topic: 4 mic mixes from the AUD  (Read 17009 times)

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Offline pilgrims622

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #45 on: August 11, 2007, 01:18:21 PM »
Quote
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When are getting a playback system?  >:D

Huh? No comprende? ???

I believe Bennett was being very sarcastic.  Should be a 'you' between 'are' & 'getting'. 
Neumann km140
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Offline Stagger

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #46 on: August 11, 2007, 01:26:52 PM »
Ahhhh.. thanks DP.. I typically need a translator for Bennett but that's uusually my fault  ;D
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Offline coloartist

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #47 on: August 11, 2007, 02:27:21 PM »
Did you not see a  >:D ? I believe that is a Devil.  :laugh: Yeah I guess I missed a "you"
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Offline Stagger

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #48 on: August 11, 2007, 04:07:45 PM »
Well, in any case, I'll work on getting something truely worthy of playing those 4ch tapes in the near future >:D ;D
Selling: SD 722
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Nikon D7000, SB-700, Nikkor 18-200 f3.5-5.6, Nikkor 50 f1.8D, Sigma 10-20 f3.5, and way too many do-dads to list...

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Offline Nick's Picks

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #49 on: August 11, 2007, 09:07:40 PM »
well...
whatever floats your boats I suppose.
I'm happy that you folks are doing these 4channel things.  It seems there are a lot of factors in doing it right, and I have yet to hear anything that is *sublime* and worth the hassle and expense.
but..thats me.
I have not listened to any of Charles' recent stuff, so I'll have to download some from shows we were at together to see if its heads and tails above mine or Carls.
Hey...I'd love to have my mind changed. 

I still think the only multiple channel stuff worth while is either SBD/AUD matrixes, flanking omnis w/a coincident pair in the middle, and B-format from a soundfield (where all 4 caps are coincident and there is no phase to deal with).

I rather like the idea of a DIN or NOS pair w/a single omni in the middle.  Seems like that would be far more balanced sounding.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2007, 09:09:18 PM by Nick's Picks »

Offline Brian

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #50 on: August 12, 2007, 11:52:05 AM »
coincident pair(xy/ms/blumlein) in the center (for focus) and flanking split omnis or sub-cards (for space)

or omni / sub card / sub card / omni split acorss with ~20' from omni to omni

i really can't imagine how two centered, non-coincident pairs could sound good without work in post.  my best results with four microphone mixes were the methods used above. 

ymmv

Offline Todd R

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #51 on: August 13, 2007, 06:02:05 PM »
I rather like the idea of a DIN or NOS pair w/a single omni in the middle.  Seems like that would be far more balanced sounding.

I'm a bit late to the party on this thread, but I'll add my 2cents anyway.  I think most of the points I could make on 4ch aud work have already been made by Wayne, easyjim, stirin', etc.

Overall though, generally what I'm personally hoping for with a 4mic mix is the spaciousness and big soundstage I get with split omnis, but with the soundstage detail of coincident/near-coincident cards.  Personally, I'm done with split omnis only -- tried many times over the years, and I just don't like the lack of soundstage detail that results with split/j-disk omnis.

I agree with Nick though that more often than not, I don't prefer the 4mic stuff -- but I'm still trying.  Given what I want from 4ch, the single omni in the middle won't do it -- I want that big split-omni soundstage.  Since I haven't been getting what I want out of 4ch consistently, I've been running the center cards in near-coincident (DIN) so I will at least like my 2ch mix.  I need to just take the risk though and run the center cards XY, since I agree that will mix best.

I will say that of the many attempts I've made, there have only been a couple times I like the 4ch mix more than the 2ch mix.  One for Trey, where there just wasn't enough low end in the mix to make it satisfying, and the omnis mixed in fixed that.  The other for my Sunday Panic at RR this year, mixing my Milab cards with DPA 4060 omnis.  I liked my 4ch Saturday mix about equal to the 2ch Milabs, but decided to spread the 4ch recording given the mixing effort I put in.  I did dig Charles' 4mic RR mixes too.
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Offline NOLAfishwater

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #52 on: August 13, 2007, 10:44:03 PM »
Thank you 4 channel tapers!

I have been a big fan of Bennett & Charles recordings. To me, they produce the best recordings out there on Panic tour. I have to say though, that Sonic Sound & OFOTD's source from Philly fuggin smoke. It was the first time I had dl either of their recordings and was very impressed.  Kudos to both of you. Personally, I like the ease of use of my 2 channel PMD660 and wouldn't want to have to do anymore post work. I can't imagine having to mix down every recording.  Many thanks to all the 4 channel pioneers out there that are making it happen. Keep up the great work guys!

Offline Stagger

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #53 on: August 14, 2007, 09:47:09 AM »
Thank you 4 channel tapers!

I have been a big fan of Bennett & Charles recordings. To me, they produce the best recordings out there on Panic tour. I have to say though, that Sonic Sound & OFOTD's source from Philly fuggin smoke. It was the first time I had dl either of their recordings and was very impressed.  Kudos to both of you. Personally, I like the ease of use of my 2 channel PMD660 and wouldn't want to have to do anymore post work. I can't imagine having to mix down every recording.  Many thanks to all the 4 channel pioneers out there that are making it happen. Keep up the great work guys!

Bennett typically records 2ch, not that there is anything wrong with that ;D. DP on the otherhand, has put up some mighty fine 4ch stuff.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2007, 09:49:03 AM by Stagger »
Selling: SD 722
Current Setup: AKG c34 > S42 > Kimber Hero > DR-680

Nikon D7000, SB-700, Nikkor 18-200 f3.5-5.6, Nikkor 50 f1.8D, Sigma 10-20 f3.5, and way too many do-dads to list...

Playback: Denon DVD3910>Audio Experiences Symphonies Tube Pre [Electro-Harmonix/12AX7 Gold Pin ]>Rogue 88 Amplifier [Genalex Gold Lion KT88s, ultralinear]>Sonus Faber Grand Piano Home & Martin Logan Depth i - AudioQuest Jaguar and CV-8 DBS cable, Panamax M7500Pro conditioner.

Offline Shawn

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #54 on: August 14, 2007, 10:03:13 AM »
quick question are there any techincal resources that explain why a coincident pair works better than near coincident with out rigger omnis? I'm not sure If I understand why that is true, or at least why people think that is true.

I'm also curious if anyone has any technical knowledge or at least an opinion regarding two pairs of direction mics in the same config placed on top of each other... say Earthworks sr77 (DIN) + schoeps mk4 (DIN) on the same stand with one set of mics clamped directly below the other. It might seem like a weird thing to do, but with mics that compliment each other really well it could be interesting.

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #55 on: August 14, 2007, 07:43:10 PM »
quick question are there any techincal resources that explain why a coincident pair works better than near coincident with out rigger omnis? I'm not sure If I understand why that is true, or at least why people think that is true.

I'm also curious if anyone has any technical knowledge or at least an opinion regarding two pairs of direction mics in the same config placed on top of each other... say Earthworks sr77 (DIN) + schoeps mk4 (DIN) on the same stand with one set of mics clamped directly below the other. It might seem like a weird thing to do, but with mics that compliment each other really well it could be interesting.

I wonder that too Shawn. Could work out great. Like Schoeps mk4's DIN and AKG 483's or MBHO ka500hn's DINa.
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Offline Nick's Picks

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #56 on: August 14, 2007, 08:31:18 PM »
 ::)

Like blended coffee, or blended whiskey...
not as good as the real thing.

easy jim

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #57 on: August 14, 2007, 08:34:06 PM »
quick question are there any techincal resources that explain why a coincident pair works better than near coincident with out rigger omnis? I'm not sure If I understand why that is true, or at least why people think that is true.

I'll take a stab in the dark with a guess/theory based on my listening/experiece:

There will already be an exaggerated difference between between the L and R of the split omni pair (vis-a-vis coincident or near-coincident) in the time the sound reaches each mic when the source is not 'centered.'  When summing a stereo mix from a split omni pair with a center pair, it seems logical that a coincident pair in the center will minimize any additional 'soupiness' or lack of detail/definition in the stereo image upon mixdown.  Rather than the ears/brain processing the overlap of two distinct stereo images when the center pair is near-coincident (left-ctr left-ctr right-right), a coincident center pair makes it one large stereo image with a crisp/defined center as well as distinct left and right (left-ctr pair-right).

If a loud sound comes from one side of the stage/PA stack, you will have 3 differing lengths of time between when the sound reaches the capsules of the 4 mics (fig. 1), with the sound reaching the capsules at the same time for the center pair.  With a near-coincident center pair, there will be 4 different lengths of time (fig. 2) with the center pair approximating the regular difference perceived by the a set of human ears from one location, and the omni outriggers as an extended/exagerrated difference super-imposed on top of that.

I think of the differences in sound resulting from the varying differences to be similar to separate, closely matching but not exact, 2 dimensional outlines of an image of a 3 dimensional object...like the object's silhouette and it's shadow(s).  In the case of of a coincident center pair, to me it is like the omni outriggers make up the primary silhouette and shadow, which can become a blurry double image by themselves if not precise.  A coincident center pair in this context would be analagous to giving the shadow (or spaces between the outlines) an extra clear line/limit (fig. 3), thereby adding some crispness and definition to the image.  A near-coincident pair, other other hand, would be like having a couple similar, but slightly different, lines between the silhouette and shadow, like shading (fig. 4).  

I believe it boils down to phasing issues that are more likely to occur with an exagerrated delay between the outriggers once summed with a similar, but slightly different, delay between the center mics as well.  With a coincident center pair, this additional variable is minimized and easier to for the ears/brain to ignore or treat as one large image instead of two images superimposed upon one another.


(fig. 1 - coincident center pair: m/s, XY, Blumlein)

PA-STAGESTAGESTAGESTAGE-PA
          ----------------
          ----------------
     O             MS             O


(fig. 2 - near-coincident center pair: DIN, DINa, ORTF, NOS, etc.)

PA-STAGESTAGESTAGESTAGE-PA
          ----------------
          ----------------
     O           OR_TF           O


(fig 3. - coincident center pair)
__
\\ \
 \\ \
  \\ \
   \\ \

(fig 4. - near coincident center pair)
___
\\`\
 \\`\
  \\`\
   \\`\
« Last Edit: August 14, 2007, 08:46:19 PM by easyjim »

Offline SonicSound

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #58 on: August 14, 2007, 08:39:24 PM »
My amateur experience...

Four channels just give you two more channels.  You can keep them, mix them, or trash them.  I have found the whole experience very hands on educational in discerning how different microphone patters and configurations behave in a sonic field.

As CraigT pointed out there haven been some occasions where I have just stuck with two channels and in others the 4mic mix just provided both a spectral and image performance which was an improvement over the two channel option.

I due agree that in some/majority of poor PA scenario that the 4mic is not they way to go with my rig (I would stick with the 2-channle tube 41V’s).  I have not figured out if there is phase/comb filtering issue in some cases (out of my current knowledge base).

My experience this summer at out door venues running 4-channels has been mixed.  With small festivals J-Disc omni’s w/ dina hypers has been the way to go IMO and with my gear.  Large/full base outdoor shows I have enjoyed that the results from running Blumlien w/ hypers dina.

Onstage/Stage Lip – Hands down 4-mic mix is sweet!

db – I know how much you enjoyed carrying my bag in NYC  ;D
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Offline Shawn

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #59 on: August 14, 2007, 09:08:59 PM »
If a loud sound comes from one side of the stage/PA stack, you will have 3 differing lengths of time between when the sound reaches the capsules of the 4 mics (fig. 1), with the sound reaching the capsules at the same time for the center pair.  With a near-coincident center pair, there will be 4 different lengths of time (fig. 2) with the center pair approximating the regular difference perceived by the a set of human ears from one location, and the omni outriggers as an extended/exagerrated difference super-imposed on top of that.
that really makes sense. I never though of it like that, but now I can see now how a coincident pair might cut down on the mish mash of the images.
 +T

 

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