Topic: mics directly into recorder question (at943 4.7k/853/ssdsm6; r-1;r09;iriverh120

[red]

I have a question about running various mics directly into my recorders.  Below is a list of the mics and recorders I have.  I'm curious about my options for bypassing the batterybox/pre-amp, in the event I want to run superstealth, or want to run 2 rigs simultaneously (one would be the full rig, the second would possibly be mics -> recorder). 

my mics:
at853 [I plan to get the 4.7k mod done on these eventually]
at943 4.7kmod
ssdsm6

my recorders:
r09
r-1
iriver h120 (rockboxed)

[for running a full rig, here are the batteryboxes/preamps I have, st-9100; sp-spsb-1; PA6-LC (for ssdsm6) . . . but right now I'm interested in going mic -> recorder]

Thanks in advance for comments.

[Will_S]

Some recordings I've done with no battery box or preamp:

4.7K AT853s > iRiver
http://www.archive.org/details/lf2007-12-15.at853uec.flac16f
http://www.archive.org/details/gat2007-12-05.at853uec.flac16f (set 2 only)

4.7K AT853s > R09
http://www.archive.org/details/gat2007-12-05.at853uec.flac16f (set 1 only)

Sennheiser MKE2s > R09
http://www.archive.org/details/hbr2007-12-14.mke2.flac16f

[Church-Audio]

I have a question about running various mics directly into my recorders.  Below is a list of the mics and recorders I have.  I'm curious about my options for bypassing the batterybox/pre-amp, in the event I want to run superstealth, or want to run 2 rigs simultaneously (one would be the full rig, the second would possibly be mics -> recorder). 

my mics:
at853 [I plan to get the 4.7k mod done on these eventually]
at943 4.7kmod
ssdsm6

my recorders:
r09
r-1
iriver h120 (rockboxed)

[for running a full rig, here are the batteryboxes/preamps I have, st-9100; sp-spsb-1; PA6-LC (for ssdsm6) . . . but right now I'm interested in going mic -> recorder]

Thanks in advance for comments.

I think it really depends on how loud the show is going to be. I think that the 853 is a great mic but when wired two wire with out any mods distorts rather easily. The 943 mics DO not require this mod.. If you have done it to these mics you have actually degraded the performance. The 853 on the other hand would benefit. From my mod but again you should use your 943 once you unmod them for quiet stuff direct in. And your modified 853 mics for loud shows. So under the right circumstances BOTH your mics could be used with your R-09 for super stealth. The iriver is not a great choice only because of its low plug in power voltage. The r09 puts out 5 volts which is plenty.


Chris

[red]

I think it really depends on how loud the show is going to be. I think that the 853 is a great mic but when wired two wire with out any mods distorts rather easily. The 943 mics DO not require this mod.. If you have done it to these mics you have actually degraded the performance. The 853 on the other hand would benefit. From my mod but again you should use your 943 once you unmod them for quiet stuff direct in. And your modified 853 mics for loud shows. So under the right circumstances BOTH your mics could be used with your R-09 for super stealth. The iriver is not a great choice only because of its low plug in power voltage. The r09 puts out 5 volts which is plenty.

Chris

Thanks for the answers.  I thought all of the ATs (831; 853; and 943) benefit from the 4.7k mod?  Why does it degrade the performance of the 943s?  I pretty much only tape loud rock shows (and also have a pair of trustworthy 831s that I intend to keep unmodded). 

[Church-Audio]

I think it really depends on how loud the show is going to be. I think that the 853 is a great mic but when wired two wire with out any mods distorts rather easily. The 943 mics DO not require this mod.. If you have done it to these mics you have actually degraded the performance. The 853 on the other hand would benefit. From my mod but again you should use your 943 once you unmod them for quiet stuff direct in. And your modified 853 mics for loud shows. So under the right circumstances BOTH your mics could be used with your R-09 for super stealth. The iriver is not a great choice only because of its low plug in power voltage. The r09 puts out 5 volts which is plenty.

Chris

Thanks for the answers.  I thought all of the ATs (831; 853; and 943) benefit from the 4.7k mod?  Why does it degrade the performance of the 943s?  I pretty much only tape loud rock shows (and also have a pair of trustworthy 831s that I intend to keep unmodded). 

Most of the 943 mics I have measured actually have a very similar performance to a modified mic. So by adding the resistors to a mic that already has good overload performance you are actually downgrading the mics. I know there are a few places doing my mod to mics and they really have no idea what they are doing because they have no way of actually measuring the distortion performance of the mic in the first place. I have invested a time and money into making sure that I could accurately measure distortion of a microphone * not an easy task * and all of the 943s I have measured never needed the mod. The 831 and the 853 will both benefit from it thought.

Chris

[daze]

I'm confused too.  Many folks have reported some distortion @ high SPL on the 943s, and have suggested the 4.7k mod improves their performance.

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,73063.0.html
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,75222.15.html
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,67225.0.html

[Church-Audio]

I'm confused too.  Many folks have reported some distortion @ high SPL on the 943s, and have suggested the 4.7k mod improves their performance.

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,73063.0.html
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,75222.15.html
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,67225.0.html

Well unless they have a way to measure distortion they could be just assuming that the mod is actually doing something, but since I am the guy that invented it. I would say that unless they are using some odd ball 943 then the chances are they too are just degrading the performance of the mics.

[daze]

But then why does SP offer their mod on both the 853u's (sp-cmc-4u) and the 943's (sp-cmc-8)?

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-CMC-4U
http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/category.cgi?category=search&item=SP-CMC-8&type=store

[guysonic]

I have a question about running various mics directly into my recorders.  Below is a list of the mics and recorders I have.  I'm curious about my options for bypassing the batterybox/pre-amp, in the event I want to run superstealth, or want to run 2 rigs simultaneously (one would be the full rig, the second would possibly be mics -> recorder). 

my mics:
at853 [I plan to get the 4.7k mod done on these eventually]
at943 4.7kmod
ssdsm6

my recorders:
r09
r-1
iriver h120 (rockboxed)

[for running a full rig, here are the batteryboxes/preamps I have, st-9100; sp-spsb-1; PA6-LC (for ssdsm6) . . . but right now I'm interested in going mic -> recorder]

Thanks in advance for comments.

Your DSM-6 mics can go directly into R-1 which has noisy preamp not good for pure acoustic work, and weak, but consistent performance plug-in-power for Sonic Studios mics.

DSM mics will not operate at all into stock R-09 without Sonic Studios MOD-3 upgrade service which also glues down both MIC/LINE input jacks to not ever break off the board.  MOD-3 ONLY available to owners recording moderately loud PA'd venues (as mic preamp is a bit too noisy for pure acoustic), and have not already broken the input jacks.  See: www.sonicstudios.com/pa_x.htm#mod3

It may be good to note newest Sony PCM-D50 deck has both quiet preamplifier AND, as purchased stock, will directly power DSM-1/6 series mics in most correct full performance manner.  See noise performance D50 graphic below.



While PA-3SX external preamplifier going into D50 LINE input shows less noise below 200 Hz, and more noise than D50 internal above 200 Hz, this is reasonable as D50's internal mic amp has 1 octave lower bandwidth, and over twice the distortion characteristic of PA-3SX which is designed for maximum dynamic performance over Sony's tact of good dynamic performance with minimized noise characteristics.

[Church-Audio]

But then why does SP offer their mod on both the 853u's (sp-cmc-4u) and the 943's (sp-cmc-8)?

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-CMC-4U
http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/category.cgi?category=search&item=SP-CMC-8&type=store

I am sorry you mean why are they offering MY MOD? on both sets of mics?  that mod, well that's a good question.. I cant really say but I have measured the 943 and all of the examples I had in my shop and ones that were sent from Customers * for the mod * did not require it. I guess it all boils down to what I was saying about investing in equipment to measure distortion. I found out that there was a problem with wiring the 853 in a two wire configuration with out doing some kind of mod to it. I measured the distortion at about 7% THD at 114 db at 1k compared to the 0.5% at 114 db at 1k after my mod. So maybe you should ask them how they are measuring distortion in there modified microphones?

Chris

[red]

Thanks everyone for the thoughtful replies.

Guysonic, can the ss-dsm6's run directly into the iriver h120?

Given that some people have reported distortion w/ AT943s at really loud shows, I'm still not seeing why the 4.7k mod is a degradation -- couldn't you just boost up the levels with the st9100 pre-amp, in situations where the SPL's aren't so high?

Here's another thread about ATs and the 4.7k mod:
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,65366.0/all.html

[guysonic]

Thanks everyone for the thoughtful replies.

Guysonic, can the ss-dsm6's run directly into the iriver h120?

Not that I've heard.  Only limited number of 'as-stock' decks provide 'working range' for direct connected powering of DSM mics.

Some Sony DAT/MD models, Sharp MD, and the Edirol/Sony flash deck models already mentioned.  

More on DSM mic powering options on page: www.sonicstudios.com/pa_x.htm

A simple electrical test of <10 volt DC mic powering is putting two 1000 ohm resistors from each mic input channel to ground to measure between 0.35-to 0.53 volts across each resistor.  Only this range is workable for powering a DSM mic.  Measured resistor voltage of 0.42 to 0.48 is optimum DSM mic performance

[Liquid Drum]

I remember Chris telling me about the 933's/943's not needing the mod a few months back.

I trust his word highly, but I'm also curious as to why so mny people still face distortion problems.

[Belexes]

Given that some people have reported distortion w/ AT943s at really loud shows, I'm still not seeing why the 4.7k mod is a degradation -- couldn't you just boost up the levels with the st9100 pre-amp, in situations where the SPL's aren't so high?

That was my thinking when I got the mod done on my pair of mics.

[Javier Cinakowski]

Regarding the stock mini-plug version from Sound Professionals (853/943/933)

I have had significant distortion with the AT943(bodies)/AT-ADAPT/853(capsules).   I also had significant distortion with the 943 with microline capsules.  I experienced significant improvement in my recordings when using the 4.7k modification.

I have noticed that the 853 distorts sooner, but in my expereince with about 10 pairs of AT's, the 4.7k and 2.2k will help the recordings.  I think even if you are not having distortion problems the lower sensitivity that this mod provides will keep the rest of your signal chain from overloading in loud situations.  Lets face it, people are not using professional preamps like the grace or apogee boxes with these mics.  Also, having a 4k2 or 2k2 in there better mimics the 3wire powering of the typical configuration of these mics.

Now, knowing a little bit about why Sound Professionals decided to offer this 4.7k/low sensitivity/Church mod, I can agree with Church that they are not testing the distortion before and after in any scientific way.  I can say there is real world results showing the benefit in sound to either 853 or 943.

I certainly don't have the credentials that Mr. Church does and I respect his work, but I have seen the benefits from the 4.7k mod on my 943 mics, so I disagree on this topic. 

Now, I will be willing to blindly agree with Mr. Church on any topic here, if he gets the "Church Transformer Preamp" done in the next few months.....