Topic: Help buying a new digital video camera

[Mitchell (Jake and Sawyer's Dad)]

We ar looking for a new video camera, and I want a digital one.  Any recommendations?  Is miniDVD, miniDV or the ones that record to memory better?  Any recommendations on brands/models or what I should look for?

I like the miniDVD ones because when you are done, you can just use the DVD in a regular player.  I also want to be able to usb/firewire the camera to my computer for backup and to edit video.

Any help would he greatly appreciated!

[Tyler McGhee]

how much do you have to spend?

[Mitchell (Jake and Sawyer's Dad)]

how much do you have to spend?

I would prefer to keep it around $600 or so, but will go upwards of $1000 (but SSSSSSHHHHHHH - dont tell my wife!)

[Nate]

I have the Sony Mini DV HC 32 (?).  It was $499 at best buy, so the extended warranty was maybe $50-75 (since it was under $500).  It has AV in and out...which is HUGE feature for me....or if you ever want to run a signal to it or use an external lense (helmet cam).

bought it this past spring and have put about 50 hours on it..in all types of situations....perfect.    It also comes with a little cradle and firewire out for doing transfers at real time.

You can get a battery that will run the thing for 400 mins on ebay for about $20.

I'm super happy with it, for the money.   It's tiny and works great.

nate

[Tyler McGhee]

I use the canon XL2 exclusively on my work and am quite fond of the canon video products.
i think you could get a GL1 for about 5-1000 used...a new GL2 would run you about 2200.
they're great cameras though.  I don't know much about consumer type cameras though...
we had this little cheapie canon mini dv that the quality on was pretty poor.

i would highly suggest going with mini dv though. it's the most popular format
out there....which means you'll have no trouble finding tapes at reasonable prices.
(the cheapest i've seen is 2.99 per tape)

one thing...if you choose a mini dv camera, purchase one tape brand and stick with it.
different brands use different lubrications on their tapes and if you swtich
around a lot you'll land yourself with some tapes that have digital dropouts later.
just an fyi..if someone can learn from my mistakes.... 

[Mitchell (Jake and Sawyer's Dad)]

thanks guys!  Yeah, I dont really need a commercial level video recorder    So, neither of you recommend the miniDVD?  Why is that?  They seem very, very convenient and you can keep the DVDs to watch later on the DVD player just like we used to keep video tapes!  That is most important to me - being able to have a medium that I can just plop in a player (not a computer) and play it for people.  We are expecting our first child, so I want to be able to take the tapes to relatives, etc., and just plop them in and play the tapes for them without having to hook up the camera, etc.  Can you do that with the miniDV?

[Tyler McGhee]

the only problem i see with mini dvd is that it uses mpeg 2 compression which is a VERY lossy
compression.  Granted if you were going to edit anything and put it down to dvd it's
going to be mpeg 2 compressed, but at least you have the option of how much compression.
you may have options on the camera to choose how much compression as well (ie, 30 min of video
per disc vs. 120 min of video) if you aren't worried about that at all, mini dvd may be the way to go!
on the other side of that coin, mini dvd discs may outlive mini dv tapes, but it's a toss up.
good luck!

[Cooker]

get miniDV. you won't regret it. 

i have digital8 and while it's nice because the cam is back-compatible with hi8 and video8, it's also got a lower runtime per tape.

and nate's "helmet cam" can be very useful in our little world too

[Mitchell (Jake and Sawyer's Dad)]

get miniDV. you won't regret it. 

i have digital8 and while it's nice because the cam is back-compatible with hi8 and video8, it's also got a lower runtime per tape.

and nate's "helmet cam" can be very useful in our little world too

so, you would take miniDV over miniDVD?  Why?

[jessedscott]

you sure you want to film the placenta?

[Mitchell (Jake and Sawyer's Dad)]

you sure you want to film the placenta?

eeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwww................  I am NOT doing that...........

How goes it Jesse?  Havent talked to ya in a while. 

[Cooker]

because DVDs are compressed. and we all know recordable Discs don't have the shelf life of tapes.  plus if you want to make copies you're still sittin at the computer. 

we got our to film the birth too. it's something you are gonna want to edit anyway.. unless you like hearing the midwife(obstetrician?) say "push" 4,326 times.  we're horrible about using it, i don't think we've filmed anything at all except for her birthday party in over a year.

[jessedscott]

you sure you want to film the placenta?

eeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwww................  I am NOT doing that...........

How goes it Jesse?  Havent talked to ya in a while. 

well, it seems that I have sperm that is strong like bull!   hint hint...I hate being told what to do on demand

[SuperDave]

Yo Mitchell,

I'd go with the Minidv as well.  Even the single chip cams(as opposed to 3 chip) look really good.  If you're gonna back up the video anyway, you might as well burn the tape to dvd via your computer and keep the tapes as backup.  Also, as mentioned before, the dvd camera video is compressed as it's sharpness and depth leave something to be desired.  If you ever need me to burn your vids to dvd from tape, you can always send them my way.  Being that's what I do for a living.

Hope this helps.    

[Mitchell (Jake and Sawyer's Dad)]

Yo Mitchell,

I'd go with the Minidv as well.  Even the single chip cams(as opposed to 3 chip) look really good.  If you're gonna back up the video anyway, you might as well burn the tape to dvd via your computer and keep the tapes as backup.  Also, as mentioned before, the dvd camera video is compressed as it's sharpness and depth leave something to be desired.  If you ever need me to burn your vids to dvd from tape, you can always send them my way.  Being that's what I do for a living.

Hope this helps.   

OK already!  It sounds like the miniDV is the way to go, then.  I just had it in my head that it would be nice to just pop the miniDVD out and through it in a case on the shelf, then throw it in the DVD when we want to watch something.  I guess I can just take that extra step and DL it to the computer as  backup then burn it to a DVD.

[BayTaynt3d]

OMG, whatever you do... DON'T GET the DVD cams... MiniDV hands down no question about it. Yeah, there are some extra steps to make a DVD, and that can be a pain in the ass, but it leaves you way way way more flexible and like said before, DVD will save your footage using MPEG2 LOSSY and you'll never get that resolution back. Even worse, let's say someday you want to make a compilation of your movie from several different DVDs. Now you're stuck using the MPEG2 off the original DVDs, creating a NEW DVD with all of those clips on it -- effectively doing LOSSY TWICE, OUCH! Not to mention I bet those DVD recorders skip are get screwed with big bumps and are probably less reliable over time, but I have no proof of that. BTW, Panasonic has the GS series of consumer cams which are really nice for the price, some even shoot widescreen without scaling/cropping.

[Mitchell (Jake and Sawyer's Dad)]

I am glad I posted this question!   I would have gotten the miniDVD, but it now seems that the miniDV is the way to go!  Thanks again everyone!

Unless, of course, there are some die hard miniDVD owners out there who want to convince me the other way! 

[Tyler McGhee]

mini dvd is a format that really hasn't taken off, for some of the reasons posted here.
it looks good on paper, but in reality is not that good.

[BayTaynt3d]

Unless, of course, there are some die hard miniDVD owners out there who want to convince me the other way! 

Not likely. There are good reasons why all prosumer camcorders (not that you're going that high end, but I'm trying to make a point) are MiniDV or DVCPro (basically same thing). Not one single pro or prosumer cam tapes to DVD -- only consumer cams. So, even if you're buying a consumer cam, might as well stay with MiniDV. Bottom line is it's all about resolution and keeping the highest quality original you can. Now for some people straight-to-DVD might be a good option, as you'll soon find out that making a DVD is a fairly technical process, but even considering that, with the tools out there today, there are just too many downsides to going MiniDVD.

[Mitchell (Jake and Sawyer's Dad)]

I have been doing a ton of research on this.  From what you guys say (and others on the internet) - the biggest advantage of the miniDV is the much better quality than the miniDVD, right?  Well, if I plan on taking all (or almost all) of the video I shoot and put it on the computer to edit so I can create full 4.7 gig DVD's, wont I lost quality anyway if using the miniDV?  I would have to get it on the computer, then when the DVD is created, I would have to compress it to the MPEG2 anyway so it can be burned to a DVD to watch, right?  I will be doing this because not everyone in my family will have a miniDV, so sending them a tape is useless, right?

I realize that if I do this wil miniDVD I lose quality as well when I compress down then resave to burn to the disc, but is it really that noticeable?  I will be recording family stuff, mainly, so is it that big a difference?

I am truly thinking of convenience for me.  I can be lazy (I still have about 5-7 shows on my JB3 that I need to DL and track!) so I want something that is relatively quick and painless.  I wont be doign any high end editing other than maybe combining the video for a longer DVD, adding menus and maybe some background music.

This is all so confusing to me.....

PS - I also want to take some old video's (1980's stuff!) and digitize to make DVD's with.  Can I do this with the dvd and/or dv camera's?

[SuperDave]

I have definitetly noticed a difference in quality between what's recorded on a Mini-dvd camera and a Mini-dv cam.  Think of the difference between a VHS and a DVD.  Also, don't those little Mini-DVD's only hold like 15 minutes of video as opposed to the 2 hours on a regular DVD?  I'm not sure, but that's what I think.

Plus, and here's something not related to gear.  I've been doing alot of video transfers for people lately(mostly family stuff) which were shot using those old terrible VHS camera's or some other crappy way, and everyone seems to wish that they had a better way to do it back then(quality-wise).  Convenience seems like it should be a factor now, but 20 years down the road, I can almost guarentee that you'll  wish that'd you done it the best possible way. 

 

[Mitchell (Jake and Sawyer's Dad)]

I have definitetly noticed a difference in quality between what's recorded on a Mini-dvd camera and a Mini-dv cam.  Think of the difference between a VHS and a DVD.  Also, don't those little Mini-DVD's only hold like 15 minutes of video as opposed to the 2 hours on a regular DVD?  I'm not sure, but that's what I think.

Plus, and here's something not related to gear.  I've been doing alot of video transfers for people lately(mostly family stuff) which were shot using those old terrible VHS camera's or some other crappy way, and everyone seems to wish that they had a better way to do it back then(quality-wise).  Convenience seems like it should be a factor now, but 20 years down the road, I can almost guarentee that you'll  wish that'd you done it the best possible way. 

 

So lemme make sure I got this right then.  For me to get the miniDV stuff to a DVd with menus, music, etc., I do the following:

Shoot the video
Hook it up to my computer via firewire
Play the video back at real time so it can be captured on my computer
render the format to something that can be edited (or is this done automatically during the transfer?)
Edit the video, create menus, etc.
Save in MPEG2
Burn to DVD

I want it so I can easily make copies and send to family members so they can play it on their DVD players.  It is the whole DLing process of the miniDV that seems times consuming and a pain in the arse, especially if I am gonna end up with a lossy result anyway by the time the video makes it to DVD.

[SuperDave]

Shoot the video
Hook it up to my computer via firewire
Play the video back at real time so it can be captured on my computer
render the format to something that can be edited (or is this done automatically during the transfer?)
Edit the video, create menus, etc.
Save in MPEG2
Burn to DVD

1. Shoot the video
2. Hook it up to the puter
3. Save the movie files on your computer(this is real-time)
4. Create Menu and all that crap with authoring program
5. Run authoring program(which does all the conversions for you)
6. Burn it to DVD

The first one takes the longest, after that, it's really quick because the files have all been Created/Saved/Rendered.
Plus, with the Mini-dvd camera, you'll have to do steps 3-6 anyway if you want to combine/edit/cut out any of the material.  You really aren't saving yourself much time.  And, think of this.  If it comes from a Mini-dvd camera, it'll have to go through 2 stages of compression.  Kinda like if you took an mp3, transferred to wav, then made an mp3 of the wav.   

 

[Mitchell (Jake and Sawyer's Dad)]

Shoot the video
Hook it up to my computer via firewire
Play the video back at real time so it can be captured on my computer
render the format to something that can be edited (or is this done automatically during the transfer?)
Edit the video, create menus, etc.
Save in MPEG2
Burn to DVD

1. Shoot the video
2. Hook it up to the puter
3. Save the movie files on your computer
4. Create Menu and all that crap with authoring program
5. Run authoring program(which does all the conversions for you)
6. Burn it to DVD

The first one takes the longest, after that, it's really quick because the files have all been Created/Saved/Rendered.
Plus, with the Mini-dvd camera, you'll have to do steps 3-6 anyway if you want to combine/edit/cut out any of the material.  You really aren't saving yourself much time.  And, think of this.  If it comes from a Mini-dvd camera, it'll have to go through 2 stages of compression.  Kinda like if you took an mp3, transferred to wav, then made an mp3 of the wav.   

 

OK, OK!  FINE!  I will get a miniDV, but if I hate it, its all your fault!  [Stinking ninjas.......]

Now - which one should I get

[SuperDave]

OK, OK!  FINE!  I will get a miniDV, but if I hate it, its all your fault!  [Stinking ninjas.......]
Now - which one should I get

I knew you'd see things my way 

I can't really help you with specific models, but I know that their's alot of camera enthusiasts on this board that can steer you in the right direction.  You may be able to pick one up in the yard sale used for cheap.  You can really save some scratch buying used from trustworthy sources.   

[terrapinj]

my old boss had a Mini-DVD camera and thought it was the greatest thing when he first bought (shooting the kids soccer games and such) He wanted it for the convenience of having the disc immediately. a few weeks into using it he hated the thing, he said it was a PITA trying to edit it etc. i believe he even has some issues either with certain players not recognizing the disc or certain software not recognizing the format, i don't recall specifically but I know he regretted getting the Mini-DVD, plus these guys sound like they know what they are talking about. although depending on where you buy the thing, you may be able to buy a mini-dvd and try it out to see if you like it, since that's all that really matters and if not just return it.

my .02

[BayTaynt3d]

I have definitetly noticed a difference in quality between what's recorded on a Mini-dvd camera and a Mini-dv cam.  Think of the difference between a VHS and a DVD.  Also, don't those little Mini-DVD's only hold like 15 minutes of video as opposed to the 2 hours on a regular DVD?  I'm not sure, but that's what I think.

Plus, and here's something not related to gear.  I've been doing alot of video transfers for people lately(mostly family stuff) which were shot using those old terrible VHS camera's or some other crappy way, and everyone seems to wish that they had a better way to do it back then(quality-wise).  Convenience seems like it should be a factor now, but 20 years down the road, I can almost guarentee that you'll  wish that'd you done it the best possible way. 

 

So lemme make sure I got this right then.  For me to get the miniDV stuff to a DVd with menus, music, etc., I do the following:

Shoot the video
Hook it up to my computer via firewire
Play the video back at real time so it can be captured on my computer
render the format to something that can be edited (or is this done automatically during the transfer?)
Edit the video, create menus, etc.
Save in MPEG2
Burn to DVD

I want it so I can easily make copies and send to family members so they can play it on their DVD players.  It is the whole DLing process of the miniDV that seems times consuming and a pain in the arse, especially if I am gonna end up with a lossy result anyway by the time the video makes it to DVD.

I do this stuff all day long, so let's be really clear about something. The MiniDV-to-DVD workflow can be a major pain in the ass, especially for someone who doesn't know a thing about doing it. You've got to shoot, capture to your PC, edit, render, encode video to MPEG2 and sound to AC3 (or whatever), master a DVD, and burn. That whole process is THE MAIN REASON why MiniDVD EVEN EXISTS IN THE FIRST PLACE. So, don't let there be any doubt about that for starters. Plus, all of those workflow steps take time and software and sometimes a steep learning curve for newbies.

HOWEVER, for anyone other than a complete newbie consumer who just wants to shoot and watch it on a player, MiniDVD FLAT OUT SUCKS BULLOCKS. If you ever want to re-edit your material, if you ever want to put a compilation together of footage from different original media, if you ever want to watch the originally shot high quality uncompressed footage, MiniDV is a MILLION TIMES better than MiniDVD for a whole bunch of reasons explained above in this thread. BUT, don't be fooled into thinking that making a DVD from MiniDV footage will be even close to as easy as just pulling the disc out of the cam and plopping it into a DVD player. This is a trade-off, and as far as I'm concerned a really easy one to make -- MiniDV -- but let there be no doubt it is a tradeoff, and that tradeoff is the exact reason why those DVD pieces of sh!t even exist.

Ultimately, the decision must be made by the purchaser as to what type makes the most sense for them, but if you are even a little bit interested in editing some of your footage into small movies, the choice is an easy one.

[Mitchell (Jake and Sawyer's Dad)]

I do this stuff all day long, so let's be really clear about something. The MiniDV-to-DVD workflow can be a major pain in the ass, especially for someone who doesn't know a thing about doing it. You've got to shoot, capture to your PC, edit, render, encode video to MPEG2 and sound to AC3 (or whatever), master a DVD, and burn. That whole process is THE MAIN REASON why MiniDVD EVEN EXISTS IN THE FIRST PLACE. So, don't let there be any doubt about that for starters. Plus, all of those workflow steps take time and software and sometimes a steep learning curve for newbies.

HOWEVER, for anyone other than a complete newbie consumer who just wants to shoot and watch it on a player, MiniDVD FLAT OUT SUCKS BULLOCKS. If you ever want to re-edit your material, if you ever want to put a compilation together of footage from different original media, if you ever want to watch the originally shot high quality uncompressed footage, MiniDV is a MILLION TIMES better than MiniDVD for a whole bunch of reasons explained above in this thread. BUT, don't be fooled into thinking that making a DVD from MiniDV footage will be even close to as easy as just pulling the disc out of the cam and plopping it into a DVD player. This is a trade-off, and as far as I'm concerned a really easy one to make -- MiniDV -- but let there be no doubt it is a tradeoff, and that tradeoff is the exact reason why those DVD pieces of sh!t even exist.

Ultimately, the decision must be made by the purchaser as to what type makes the most sense for them, but if you are even a little bit interested in editing some of your footage into small movies, the choice is an easy one.

See - its stuff like this that scare/worry me.  I am not a complete newb, but as the guys in Team Pgh will attest - my learning curve is pretty slow, and I dont like to spend a lot of time trying to learn stuff.  I can/will sacrifice some quality for ease of use and quicker turnaround time.  I dunno - I need to really think about this.

[NewHomebrew]

Listen to the guys here.  Mini-DVD shouldn't even be an option, think of it as the minidisc of video.

Take the time to learn the software and the process and in the end, you will get better results and be happier.

Have you ever tried to re-author a DVD?  That can be just as big a pain as doing it right in the first place.  This is the kind of thing where you can't expect to come flying right out of the box.  It will take months of trial and error to really get where you want.

[bossanova]

[/quote]

The MiniDV-to-DVD workflow can be a major pain in the ass, especially for someone who doesn't know a thing about doing it.

[/quote]


For quick and dirty transfers to DVDs that I am sending out to relatives,
I just use a consumer DVD recorder with firewire input.
I have a Philips.
The DVD recorders are cheap nowadays,  you can get a Lite On at Costco for $130.00

I know the quality is not as good as capturing on your computer, as you are depending on the encoding of the DVD recorder,
but for those of us who are short on time, I think it's a good solution.

I also use the DVD recorder to transfer old VHS tapes, and the resolution is fine for that.

[BayTaynt3d]

The MiniDV-to-DVD workflow can be a major pain in the ass, especially for someone who doesn't know a thing about doing it.

[/quote]


For quick and dirty transfers to DVDs that I am sending out to relatives,
I just use a consumer DVD recorder with firewire input.
I have a Philips.
The DVD recorders are cheap nowadays,  you can get a Lite On at Costco for $130.00

I know the quality is not as good as capturing on your computer, as you are depending on the encoding of the DVD recorder,
but for those of us who are short on time, I think it's a good solution.

I also use the DVD recorder to transfer old VHS tapes, and the resolution is fine for that.


[/quote]

Not a bad solution, but let's be clear on what you're saying... The end result is it is still preferrable to own a MiniDV camera to start with, but then, you offer up a really simple and easy solution to get the MiniDV tape converted to DVD: use a dedicated consumer DVD recorder -- just plug in your camera to the recorder via firewire (or analog for that matter), and burn on-the-fly. That gives you an easy way to make a DVD while retaining the original MiniDV tapes in all of their full-res glory for use in editing or using at a later date. Nice suggestion!

[bossanova]

[/quote]

Not a bad solution, but let's be clear on what you're saying... The end result is it is still preferrable to own a MiniDV camera to start with, but then, you offer up a really simple and easy solution to get the MiniDV tape converted to DVD: use a dedicated consumer DVD recorder -- just plug in your camera to the recorder via firewire (or analog for that matter), and burn on-the-fly. That gives you an easy way to make a DVD while retaining the original MiniDV tapes in all of their full-res glory for use in editing or using at a later date. Nice suggestion!
[/quote]

Yes,  I still think MiniDV is the way to go.

Has anyone tried the new JVC 20GB and 30GB hard drive camcorders ?
I assume they also record in MPEG2 , similar to the DVD camcorders, so they would also be poorer quality than MiniDV.

[Mitchell (Jake and Sawyer's Dad)]

I am just worried I wont have the patience and smarts to do the whole D/L / edit process with the DV.  I am lazy enough as it is!

[SuperDave]

I am just worried I wont have the patience and smarts to do the whole D/L / edit process with the DV.  I am lazy enough as it is!

Trust me, get the dvcam.  You'll regret it later if you don't.

[guitard]

Mini-DV all the way (but you've probably already bought it by now...). 

Here's the deal: there is nothing difficult about creating a nicely authored DVD sourced from a mini-DV tape.  The problem is that most guys (myself included - probably most of them out there that know how to do this stuff) learned it on their own by trial and error.  People have only been doing this stuff on PCs for around the last five years or so - and really it's only been 2-3 years ago since it really took off.  So yeah - it kicked my ass for a couple of months - but I eventually learned.  If you can hook up with a buddy who knows his stuff - you could learn more in two hours at his house than you could in a two weeks working by yourself at home.

[columbus decanter]

i just got a brand new sony model digital camcorder. the Sony dcr-HC36 handycam. i think its an upgrade of the Hc32 but im not sure.

[cpatch]

So lemme make sure I got this right then.  For me to get the miniDV stuff to a DVd with menus, music, etc., I do the following:

Shoot the video
Hook it up to my computer via firewire
Play the video back at real time so it can be captured on my computer
render the format to something that can be edited (or is this done automatically during the transfer?)
Edit the video, create menus, etc.
Save in MPEG2
Burn to DVD

If you use a Mac the process can be a lot simpler if just want an unedited DVD, especially with the new versions of iDVD and iMovie in iLife '06. You can basically skip steps 4, 5, and 6 above. (They're either unnecessary or automated.)

Craig

[columbus decanter]

i just got a brand new sony model digital camcorder. the Sony dcr-HC36 handycam. i think its an upgrade of the Hc32 but im not sure.

just went and exchanged it for a Sony HC46.. one step up.

[handsome_b_wonderful33]

Does the Sony HC46 have an audio line-in jack? I was planning on buying a new camcorder and this is really a deciding factor on wether or not to buy the HC46.

[jdawg]

I recently bought a Panasonic PV-GS65.  Plenty of good reviews on this one. Never tried taping a concert, but from the "family" type footage I've shot, I really like it.