Topic: any analog/tape dinosaurs left?

[taosmay]

Regarding when lp's are from original analog sources, didi anyone else here happen to catch david lemieux say today that dick's pick number 4 (2.13 & 14 1970) will be released soon on vinyl, which jeffry norman recently remastered direct from the master reels? It is from this new remaster that the vinyl will come from. I heard this on this day in GD history, on xm radio.

[rastasean]

so this means the album will be written to using analog methods?

[raymonda]

so this means the album will be written to using analog methods?

Maybe yes or maybe no. My guess is from new remastered digital sources. It did say new remastered, right. Hopefully high resolution.

[taosmay]

so this means the album will be written to using analog methods?

Maybe yes or maybe no. My guess is from new remastered digital sources. It did say new remastered, right. Hopefully high resolution.

Definitely no digital in the chain at all - that is what David said. Pure analog vinyl LP's from the original master reels.

[raymonda]

so this means the album will be written to using analog methods?

Maybe yes or maybe no. My guess is from new remastered digital sources. It did say new remastered, right. Hopefully high resolution.

Definitely no digital in the chain at all - that is what David said. Pure analog vinyl LP's from the original master reels.

That good news

[raymonda]

so this means the album will be written to using analog methods?

Maybe yes or maybe no. My guess is from new remastered digital sources. It did say new remastered, right. Hopefully high resolution.

Definitely no digital in the chain at all - that is what David said. Pure analog vinyl LP's from the original master reels.

That good news

oops, not so fast.


POSTED ON http://www.stevehoffman.tv/
 
Morning All,
 
My name is Karl Groeger and I am the owner of Brookvale Records and Looney Tunes. I am the one putting out the Dick’s Picks series on vinyl.
 
We have been working very closely with The Dead on these releases and I welcome your questions and concerns.
 
As a fan first, I knew there would be challenges going into this project and I think we are doing an amazing job with them. I would like to address 2 concerns I see brought up here. Sound source and side splits. Of course these are critical.
 
While we want of course the source tapes to every show, we are at the mercy of The Dead for masters for both ART and MUSIC. For the first shows the Dead simply does not have the original masters for them. We had no choice except to go from the CD.  My first reaction was, thats impossible, how do they not have the masters? Well after about 6 months of searching they just do not have them.  It looks like though for future releases they have about 90% of the masters on all the volumes.
 
OK so we don’t have the masters. Can we go from the CD? How is that going to sound? Well they sound great! (Check out the reviews on brookvalerecords.com).
 
We had a choice to use anyone we wanted to master this vinyl from the CD. We were suggested to use Rainbo pressing. I decided not to.  I have been a HUGE face of both RTI and GOTTA GROOVE RECORDS. I think both plants have been making some great QUIET records. After about another 6 months of discussions, we choose Gotta Groove to re master and manufacture the vinyl on 1 and 2. And I could not be happier. Although YES the CD is not ideal to go with. BUT I think it came out EXCELLENT! Or I would not put my name on it. I have actually made LPS from masters on another project that did not sound half as good as these dead records do. I hope you will enjoy them.
 
SIDE SPLITS. Yes this is going to be another challenge for sure. With vol 2 you notice that it is a 3 sided record? WHY I decided to not make a side 4 because I could keep the JAM going on side 3. Where ever possible I will also keep the jam and do our very best with track listings and side splits. It will be a challenge YES. BUT I DO NOT THINK that its a reason NOT to do these.
 
I love vinyl. I think it is the perfect way to listen to The Dead.
 
I welcome your comments. (crap…ha ha).
 
Thank you for your time guys I hope this addresses some concerns.
 
Best,
 Karl

Brookvale Records is proud to announce that we will be collaborating with mixing and mastering engineer, Jeffrey Norman. Brookvale Records will be releasing Dick’s Picks Series volume 3 and volume 4 this February on vinyl and Jeffrey will be doing the mastering for us. We would also like to announce that he will have access and will be using the ORIGINAL master tapes for this project. As we get more information we will let you know. Pre orders for these releases will go up next week. STAY TUNED!
 
For more information on Mr. Norman, you can click these links below:
 
http://www.mockingbirdmastering.com/
 
http://www.dead.net/features/interviews/mixing-and-mastering-dead-s-archives-jeffrey-norman
 
FROM THE ORIGINAL MASTER TAPES!
 
Mr Norman talks about mastering vol 3 and 4.
 
“I was excited to get the chance to remaster the early Dick’s Picks’ releases for vinyl…they were originally mastered for CD in 1995-96, and I was looking forward to hearing the 1/4″ source tapes once again, 17 years later. What I didn’t expect was the dramatic improvement the new mastering gives to these classic releases. The original CD resolution is 44.1KHz/16bit (as is any released CD), while the mastering I am now doing for the vinyl releases is 96KHz/24bit. I’m now using a state-of-the-art analog to digital converter (Pacific Microsonics Model 2)….and I’ve probably gotten better at doing this over the years! I used the original CDs as a guide for the new mastering, but when listening to the CDs I feel like I’m listening in black and white, while the new mastering feels like I’m listening in color. It’s very exciting!
 
A few observations: the mixes for Dick’s Picks Vol. 3 and Vol. 4 couldn’t be more different. The Pembroke Pine show (Vol.3) is quite bass strong and powerful. The Fillmore East show (2/13-14/12) on the other hand is very bright and a little bass shy. Both represent the ears and interpretations of the mixers at the time (Betty Cantor Jackson at Pembroke Pines, and Bear at the Fillmore East), and both capture the quality and excitement of these shows. I did some equalization on both shows to enhance the presentation but kept true to what the original mixers intended. As typical of all Grateful Dead shows, both these two shows are very dynamic….there’s a wide range of volume from quiet to very loud. I tried to keep the dynamics intact, with very little limiting, using limiting mainly as protection against digital overs.
 
In choosing the songs for each side of vinyl, the goal was to be true to the flow of the show and keep the fidelity as high as possible. There is a physical limitation to the length of a vinyl side….if it gets too long there is a loss of bass and level. Ideally the sides would be no longer than 20 minutes, and for the most part that was accomplished. However there are a few sides that are longer than ideal, but because of the way the music lays out there was no way around a few longer lengths. Also because of those side length constraints, there are some songs that had to be split in two (i.e. Vol.4 Dark Star, The Other One, and Lovelight)…sorry, you’re going to have to flip the record to get the entire “good stuff”.
 
Considering that these tapes are 40 years old (in the case of Vol. 4, Fillmore East), they sound phenomenal! There are some issues on the original recording that can’t be fixed (i.e.. L/R movement side to side in Vol. 3 Eyes of the World), but that in no way takes away from this great music.”

[taosmay]

Thanks for this research and information raymonda, but I am confused. At one point in the Karl Groeger statement, he says "For the first shows the Dead simply does not have the original masters for them.", but then under the Jeffrey Norman statements it is said "FROM THE ORIGINAL MASTER TAPES!" What gives with that discrepancy?

[raymonda]

Thanks for this research and information raymonda, but I am confused. At one point in the Karl Groeger statement, he says "For the first shows the Dead simply does not have the original masters for them.", but then under the Jeffrey Norman statements it is said "FROM THE ORIGINAL MASTER TAPES!" What gives with that discrepancy?

For some reason they only have, a 44/16 master copy of vol. 1, which I find disappointing. Some how the master reel got lost. so guess  what, everyone who has volume  1 on cd has as good of a copy to the original as it gets. sounds like they have analog masters past that, or at least until vol 4. We will see. They can skip Hartford 83 for vinyl, as far as I'm concerned. That is one that does not really sound that good. It came from a cassette master and the mix is marginal. I think a matrix of this show would be the way to go and then put it on vinyl.

[taosmay]

Thanks for this research and information raymonda, but I am confused. At one point in the Karl Groeger statement, he says "For the first shows the Dead simply does not have the original masters for them.", but then under the Jeffrey Norman statements it is said "FROM THE ORIGINAL MASTER TAPES!" What gives with that discrepancy?

For some reason they only have, a 44/16 master copy of vol. 1, which I find disappointing. Some how the master reel got lost. so guess  what, everyone who has volume  1 on cd has as good of a copy to the original as it gets. sounds like they have analog masters past that, or at least until vol 4. We will see. They can skip Hartford 83 for vinyl, as far as I'm concerned. That is one that does not really sound that good. It came from a cassette master and the mix is marginal. I think a matrix of this show would be the way to go and then put it on vinyl.

Okay, but since we were originally talking about them putting out Dick's Picks Vol.4 (2/13 & 14/1970) on Vinyl,  your latest post would now seem to indicate that since this is past Vol. 1, this new vinyl release should be from the master reels?

Also, going to those links you posted, I could not find the quotes attributed to Jeffrey Norman, starting with "FROM THE ORIGINAL MASTER TAPES!"

[raymonda]

Thanks for this research and information raymonda, but I am confused. At one point in the Karl Groeger statement, he says "For the first shows the Dead simply does not have the original masters for them.", but then under the Jeffrey Norman statements it is said "FROM THE ORIGINAL MASTER TAPES!" What gives with that discrepancy?

For some reason they only have, a 44/16 master copy of vol. 1, which I find disappointing. Some how the master reel got lost. so guess  what, everyone who has volume  1 on cd has as good of a copy to the original as it gets. sounds like they have analog masters past that, or at least until vol 4. We will see. They can skip Hartford 83 for vinyl, as far as I'm concerned. That is one that does not really sound that good. It came from a cassette master and the mix is marginal. I think a matrix of this show would be the way to go and then put it on vinyl.

Okay, but since we were originally talking about them putting out Dick's Picks Vol.4 (2/13 & 14/1970) on Vinyl,  your latest post would now seem to indicate that since this is past Vol. 1, this new vinyl release should be from the master reels?

Also, going to those links you posted, I could not find the quotes attributed to Jeffrey Norman, starting with "FROM THE ORIGINAL MASTER TAPES!"

Yes, at least for vol 4, they will be using the original master tapes and since Bear's recordings were never high in bass there may not be much compression needed to cut the master.

I think, from what I have read, they are using the original masters when available. However, don't think that these will be direct transfers. First, the original masters were made live to 2 track and if you have ever tried mixing on the fly with headphone you know how difficult it can be to get things right. A bit of post editing can go a long way to greatly improve the master 2 tracks. IMO Betty did the best job and some of Bear's sound great, too. But even in theses cases some post editing is still needed. Also, sound board that were recorded in doors often sound worse because they are not being mixed for the recording. Often, outdoor sound boards sound much better, since the sound man, Healy, needed to put all instruments in the mix in order to get acceptable venue sound, e.g.Buffalo 1990, but that isn't a Dick's pick.

I think that it would have been cool to get other shows that have not be release out on vinyl along with high Rez DVD and down loads. But that is just my thoughts. There are plenty of incomplete shows that might have been good for this or even non release full shows. But, I won't complain because any vinyl is a great thing.

[taosmay]

I completely agree with all those thoughts and opinions, raymonda. Thanks for your input. Totally psyched about DP vol. 4 on vinyl, although worried about side splits, with those famous long jams from 2.13.70...

[DSatz]

I think maybe I can help clarify this confusion. When I started working as a recording engineer for a major label, I went through the same thing myself.

Inside the recording industry, the term "master tape" means "the equalized copy that the producer has approved for duplication" (e.g. LP and/or CD mastering). It specifically doesn't mean what the audiophile community seems to think that it means (i.e. "the original, real-time, live recording"). Different labels have different names for them--at RCA, for example, they were called "work parts" while they had some other name for them at Columbia/CBS/Sony/whatever.

Record companies and producers have exploited this misunderstanding for many years by issuing recordings labeled "direct from the master tape." Whoopie--in their terms the "master tape" may well be a fourth-generation copy.

--best regards

P.S. for anyone who ever fell in love with the sound of a vinyl LP: I've heard the "master tapes" of several LPs where I was also familiar with the sound of the LP itself as played on a good phonograph. There was little similarity apart from the notes being played. Vinyl LPs are anything but a transparent medium, so if you want them to sound good, you have to orient your entire recording method toward their peculiarities. As a result, many LP "master tapes" tend to sound rather bad when played back on high-quality monitoring equipment.

And I think that explains a lot of why so many of the first CDs "issued from the master tape" were rejected by audiophiles. The CD medium is sonically very nearly transparent, and what people were hearing was the sound of master tapes that had been conceived and tailored for LP duplication.

[raymonda]

I think maybe I can help clarify this confusion. When I started working as a recording engineer for a major label, I went through the same thing myself.

Inside the recording industry, the term "master tape" means "the equalized copy that the producer has approved for duplication" (e.g. LP and/or CD mastering). It specifically doesn't mean what the audiophile community seems to think that it means (i.e. "the original, real-time, live recording"). Different labels have different names for them--at RCA, for example, they were called "work parts" while they had some other name for them at Columbia/CBS/Sony/whatever.

Record companies and producers have exploited this misunderstanding for many years by issuing recordings labeled "direct from the master tape." Whoopie--in their terms the "master tape" may well be a fourth-generation copy.

--best regards

P.S. for anyone who ever fell in love with the sound of a vinyl LP: I've heard the "master tapes" of several LPs where I was also familiar with the sound of the LP itself as played on a good phonograph. There was little similarity apart from the notes being played. Vinyl LPs are anything but a transparent medium, so if you want them to sound good, you have to orient your entire recording method toward their peculiarities. As a result, many LP "master tapes" tend to sound rather bad when played back on high-quality monitoring equipment.

And I think that explains a lot of why so many of the first CDs "issued from the master tape" were rejected by audiophiles. The CD medium is sonically very nearly transparent, and what people were hearing was the sound of master tapes that had been conceived and tailored for LP duplication.

You actually have 3 masters. The original, in this case, two track. The master for cutting, which came from the original master and the master disc, which will make stampers. When the cutting engineer sets out to cutting the received master to disc an additional level of compression/limiting can be added in order to get a master disc that will print playable copies that won't have your cartridge and arm jumping all around.

I don't agree with your comment about highly colored LP's from the original mastered tapes. If that was your experience, then I would say the cutting engineer had some issues. My experience with LP's is that they can sound very much like the original master, when done right. Now considering 50-60's lps, there are a lot of different curves that need to be considered. Also, cartridge loading, impedance and set up are critical. You also have to ensure that the LP copy is from the actual master. A lot of albums were not cut from masters but rather copies, especially those that came from across the pond and vise/versa. When a label was sending tapes out to be pressed across the pond it was common to send a second generation copy and not the master..........and, a lot of cases when the second third and forth pressing were done, they too could have been pressed from second generation copies.

A lot more work has to go into getting your lp's to sound good, where as digital is plug and play. Lp's are better left for the OCD type person.

Finally, the quality of the press and stamper is an important factor. In the seventies and eighties it was not uncommon for presses to over stamp and use cheap, compromised vinyl. It was rumored that part of the plan to move CD's was to press poor quality vinyl. If you remember when CD's came out it took a few years to take hold, so record companies wanted to do everything they could to push a new medium which would allow them to sell their catalog all over again.

I'm not one to trumpet one medium over the other. I love vinyl, "when done right" as much as I love digital, "when done right". I have some vinyl that absolutely cream their digital counter parts and I have some vinyl that absolutely stink. I also have some digital that is unlistenable, too. However, in the end, I do agree that the best analog is reel to reel and the best digital is high rez and not cd standard. Although cds have gotten much better over the past 10 years or more and vinyl can sound pretty darn accurate, too.