Topic: Computer dorks (need processer/RAM advice on new DAW build)>

[Matt Quinn]

I'm configuring a new computer for my studio, and trying to figure out if a couple processor/RAM upgrades are worth it. Looking for advice...

Config page:

http://www.adkproaudio.com/systems/viewsystem.cfm?recordid=134


Processor options:

-Core i3 530 2.93ghz 4MB cache Dual Core w/ HT

-Core i3 540 3.06ghz 4MB cache Dual Core w/ HT (+$20)

-Core i5 650 3.2ghz 4MB cache Dual Core w/ HT & Turbo (+$67)

-Core i5 660 3.33ghz 4MB cache Dual Core w/ HT & Turbo (+$86)

-Core i5 750 2.66ghz Quad 8MB cache 2.5GT/S DMI (+$94)

-Core i5 670 3.46ghz 4MB cache Dual Core w/ HT & Turbo (+$181)



RAM options - there are 2 slots for RAM, so I could put any combination of these chips in:

-Mushkin - 2gig DDR3 1333 1.5v 9-9-9-24
-Mushkin - 2gig DDR3 1600 1.65v 8-8-8-24 (+$7)
-Mushkin - 4gig (2x2gig) DDR3 1333 9-9-9-24 (+$73)
-Mushkin - 4gig (2x2gig) DDR3 1600 1.65v 8-8-8-24 (+$93)


************************************************************

So there's a couple no-brainer upgrades I think (the $7 RAM upgrade for both slots, and the $20 processor upgrade). What I am wondering is how much I would gain by blowing out the processer/RAM. We're talking ~ a $300 difference between base model & pimp'd to the max, so not peanuts. The computer is going to be used exclusively for audio/video, using up to 30-40 tracks per project, many of which will be running VSTi's & effects.

[Shadow_7]

Just curious if the computer will be in the same room as the recording is taking place in?  If so, you might not want that ram with fans, video card with fans, cpu with fans, and other NOISE making components.  You can't really get a beefy computer without fans, but something to consider.

[Matt Quinn]

Just curious if the computer will be in the same room as the recording is taking place in?  If so, you might not want that ram with fans, video card with fans, cpu with fans, and other NOISE making components.  You can't really get a beefy computer without fans, but something to consider.

The vast majority of stuff I will be doing will use either virtual instruments or synths/samplers/drum machines recorded directly. Recording live drums/guitar cabs etc will be a rare occasion type of task.

[OFOTD]

To be very honest the computer build you linked to is WAYYYYYY overpriced.   

Don't let the size fool you.  Shuttle makes the same type of product for much much less.  ADK Pro Audio's 'exhaustive testing' or whatever they claim is rubbish.

So my suggestion would be to look at some other manufacturers first.  No doubt you can find a superior machine to the one linked to for quite a bit less.

[Brian Skalinder]

Have you considered buying the components and building it yourself instead of paying ADK a premium to do so?

Some links posted by others you may find helpful in selecting components within your budget:

http://www.pcper.com/hwlb.php
http://techreport.com/articles.x/18510
http://arstechnica.com/hardware/guides/2009/10/ars-system-guide-october-2009-edition.ars

[Matt Quinn]

To be very honest the computer build you linked to is WAYYYYYY overpriced.   

Don't let the size fool you.  Shuttle makes the same type of product for much much less.  ADK Pro Audio's 'exhaustive testing' or whatever they claim is rubbish.

So my suggestion would be to look at some other manufacturers first.  No doubt you can find a superior machine to the one linked to for quite a bit less.

While I don't doubt that ADK is applying a premium here, I think it's a little ridiculous to call the testing the do rubbish. They certainly appear to publish a lot of data to back up their claims...

http://www.adkproaudio.com/benchmarks.cfm


In my research, they also seem to be extremely well regarded by the pro-audio community. I do not get the vibe that these guys are selling snake oil.

That said, I'm certainly open to suggestions for other manufacturers.....when I built a similar system at the Dell site, the price was just slightly lower, not enough of a difference to justify skipping a boutique built box for an off the rack Dell.   


What do you think a system like this should cost?

Have you considered buying the components and building it yourself instead of paying ADK a premium to do so?

Some links posted by others you may find helpful in selecting components within your budget:

http://www.pcper.com/hwlb.php
http://techreport.com/articles.x/18510
http://arstechnica.com/hardware/guides/2009/10/ars-system-guide-october-2009-edition.ars

Not really, no. I have zero experience designing/building computers. Those links you posted are greek to me. I am eyeballs deep in learning very deep new audio & video software, as well as actual music writing/creation, so adding computer building to my hobby list is just not feasible right now. I don't want to spend time troubleshooting a computer build, I want a reasonably priced computer that handles everything I throw at it out of the box. I understand this will cost me a little more, but my time is valuable.

[OFOTD]

While I don't doubt that ADK is applying a premium here, I think it's a little ridiculous to call the testing the do rubbish. They certainly appear to publish a lot of data to back up their claims...

http://www.adkproaudio.com/benchmarks.cfm

Truth be told you can find a half dozen software packages that will spit out the same types of graphs, charts and figures.    While it may be comforting to see those benchmarks the reality is that its just there for eye candy and marketing.   

In my research, they also seem to be extremely well regarded by the pro-audio community. I do not get the vibe that these guys are selling snake oil.

I'm not in any way trying to say they are snake oil salesmen.  On the flip side they are not doing anything that is cutting edge, revolutionary or for that matter anything that you can't do for yourself.   
   
Here is a Dell deal:  http://www.dell.com/content/topics/topic.aspx/global/products/ltd/en/us/dhs/inspiron_560_dddoad51?c=us&l=en&s=dhs&cs=19

Inspiron 560.  Windows 7, 8GB RAM, 1TB drive, CD/DVD Burner and the ability to expand as you see fit all for $569.  .

For the type of use you have described there is no need to buy a boutique box at all.   All of the 'off the shelf' Dell's or similar will work for you just as well at the ADK box.  The fact that you can use more than two RAM sticks is reason enough to pass the ADK boxes over without doubt.   Using virtual instruments and effects will have their biggest boost by far with larger amounts of RAM.   

There are dozens of sites that will walk you through optimizing your new DAW in literally a few minutes
 

[Matt Quinn]

OK, now we're talking...believe me, if I can save some cash, I'd love to. The big difference that jumps out at me between the ADK & Dell is the ADK has a seperate (160 or 320gig) drive for OS/program as well as one for audio. Not sure how to add that option to the Dell to make a fair comparison, and also not sure how to set up the system so that the OS lives on one drive while audio goes somewhere else.

The ADK also had a Bluray burner.


Another issue I was concerned about is the crap that always comes preloaded on major manufacturer boxes. This box will likely not even connect to the internet, so I don't need 50 anti virus trials etc. I really don't want any software on the computer other than the OS & my sequencer, and definitely do not want any non-essential stuff running in the background while I'm working on audio.

Thanks for the help!

[OFOTD]

The big difference that jumps out at me between the ADK & Dell is the ADK has a seperate (160 or 320gig) drive for OS/program as well as one for audio.

If you can hook up your taping gear then you can plug in a second hard drive.  Your original built system link has less than 500GB total between two hard drives.  With the linked Dell you're starting off with 1TB.  If you really want to use dual drives then spending $60 out of pocket for a second drive is probably <$60.   

The ADK also had a Bluray burner.

If you choose the Performance Plus Package upgrade from Dell (new total of $899) it adds a BR burner as well as other hardware upgrades including a 20" widescreen monitor.

Another issue I was concerned about is the crap that always comes preloaded on major manufacturer boxes.

For the most part manufacturers (Dell especially) has dramatically cut back on the crap they preinstall.  They have also made it so that using the control panel to uninstall works on all of that kind of thing.  Something you could do in literally under five minutes. 

[Matt Quinn]

If you can hook up your taping gear then you can plug in a second hard drive.  Your original built system link has less than 500GB total between two hard drives.  With the linked Dell you're starting off with 1TB.

That was just a link to the configuration page. The box I'd set up had a 320gig program/os drive and a 1TB audio drive.

If you really want to use dual drives then spending $60 out of pocket for a second drive is probably <$60.   

Well, I was led to believe it's rather important to have the OS & the audio drive separated. Is that not the case? It would be great if I could get away with 1 drive, but like I said, everything  I've seen on the subject seems to indicate separating the OS & audio drives is preferable. Can the Dell even be configured this way?

[rastasean]

the thing I don't like about it is that it only has two slots for RAM but that is because it is a small box. you can get more computer for less money.

Don't expect to buy a computer this week. just take your time and attempt to learn about all of this. after all, you didn't become the taper you are overnight or by buying Schoeps microphones. I think you would rather learn and attempt to save money rather than waste it on something thats too much money.

[flipp]

Caveat: I haven't checked Dell's store in a year or so, so the following may no longer be true.

If you go to Dell's small business pages rather than the home/home office site the computers come with almost no trial versions of anything, just an OS and any software you purchased from Dell (MS Office, etc). If you don't want preloaded crap go the small business route.

If you go the single drive route there is nothing preventing you from having multiple partitions on that drive - one for the OS and another one or more for programs/data etc. Maybe not quite as ideal as multiple drives but if/when you need to format/re-install the OS you only have to wipe/format the one partition.

[Matt Quinn]

Don't expect to buy a computer this week. just take your time and attempt to learn about all of this.

I mean, in an ideal world, yes, I'd have all kinds of time to learn about the technical stuff.  But this thing is going to be an instrument for me. If someone asks me for a recommendation on a guitar, I don't recommend they go build one. The building of one is a skill unto itself, separate from the skill of playing one. Race car drivers aren't mechanics. See what I'm saying?

[phanophish]

Just to give you an idea.  This machine would be a bit of overkill for what you are doing but would be a great Audio box and would be more than capable of Hd video editing and so on...

$1150
 Intel® Core™ i7-860 processor(8MB Cache, 2.80GHz)
Genuine Windows® 7 Home Premium, 64Bit, English
8GB Dual Channel DDR3 SDRAM at 1333MHz - 4 DIMMs
750GB1 - 7200RPM, SATA 3.0Gb/s, 16MB Cache
ATI Radeon HD 5450 1GB DDR3
Dell 1525 WLAN PCIe card with11n mini-Card & external antenna
20" Dell ST2010 HD Widescreen Monitor
2 Yr Ltd Warranty, On-site Service, and 2 Yr Tech Support

http://www.dell.com/us/en/business/desktops/studio-xps-8100/pd.aspx?refid=studio-xps-8100&s=bsd&cs=04&~oid=us~en~4~studio-xps-8100-cto3~~

If you wanted to add a second drive for audio work, not necessary if you are not doing serious multitrack, but you could see some performance improvement, a raw 1TB drive can be picked up for well under $100.

[Shadow_7]

Is this machine for live performance / effects / other realtime needs?  If not, why pop for so much above and beyond abilities.  I don't think that I've spent more than $400 on a computer in the past five years.  To include a laptop I got for about $300.  Most of which are sufficient for most of what I do.  And since I keep the old boxes, I've got spares in times of trouble, or something to set whirling leaving my primary box free for more casual tasks.

It depends on your needs though.  A lot of the snake oil of sorts is in the software bundle, not the hardware.  Outside of ensuring that the hardware components are optmizably compatible, which some of the other bundles don't do.  Although sometimes you get lucky, my desktop only has a 1.9GHz dual core, but the mobo of that machine has that rated as the slowest chip for it.  So for $100-ish I could almost double my CPU power.  When/if the time/need comes.

[Matt Quinn]

Just to give you an idea.  This machine would be a bit of overkill for what you are doing but would be a great Audio box and would be more than capable of Hd video editing and so on...

$1150
 Intel® Core™ i7-860 processor(8MB Cache, 2.80GHz)
Genuine Windows® 7 Home Premium, 64Bit, English
8GB Dual Channel DDR3 SDRAM at 1333MHz - 4 DIMMs
750GB1 - 7200RPM, SATA 3.0Gb/s, 16MB Cache
ATI Radeon HD 5450 1GB DDR3
Dell 1525 WLAN PCIe card with11n mini-Card & external antenna
20" Dell ST2010 HD Widescreen Monitor
2 Yr Ltd Warranty, On-site Service, and 2 Yr Tech Support

http://www.dell.com/us/en/business/desktops/studio-xps-8100/pd.aspx?refid=studio-xps-8100&s=bsd&cs=04&~oid=us~en~4~studio-xps-8100-cto3~~

If you wanted to add a second drive for audio work, not necessary if you are not doing serious multitrack, but you could see some performance improvement, a raw 1TB drive can be picked up for well under $100.

Thanks man, ended up pulling the trigger on almost that exact package last night. Final specs:

Intel® Core™ i7-860 processor(8MB Cache, 2.80GHz)
1TB - 7200RPM, SATA 3.0Gb/s, 16MB Cache
8GB Dual Channel DDR3 SDRAM at 1333MHz - 4 DIMMs

w/ a 20" monitor/keyboard/mouse

Total: $1,273.95

[phanophish]

I just went to a Core i7 based chip.  You will like it. 

[Scooter123]

You probably already know this, but you are going to need an internet card to activate most of the software and download drivers.

You'll need storage space, and external storage will not write as fast as internal SATA drives. 

You'll need either a fireware, USB or internal sound card-breakout box sound card.  Firewire is, of course, faster than USB and internal-breakout box have smaller latentcy than all of them.  Firewire takes up a card slot, right? 

Quad Core will make up a lot of difference rather than memory, but memory is cheaper.  I'd be tempted to go 2.8 to 3.3 Quad Core. 

I think I would go a full 4g of memory, although Windows7 64b can read more than 4g. 

[rastasean]

Don't expect to buy a computer this week. just take your time and attempt to learn about all of this.

I mean, in an ideal world, yes, I'd have all kinds of time to learn about the technical stuff.  But this thing is going to be an instrument for me. If someone asks me for a recommendation on a guitar, I don't recommend they go build one. The building of one is a skill unto itself, separate from the skill of playing one. Race car drivers aren't mechanics. See what I'm saying?

Perhaps you should. If i had help, I would build one to learn the mechanics of it and understand the method of why they are made the way they are.

It sounds like a computer is a big part of your job and making music so it should be right in line with learning and understanding them at a fundamental level...for starting.

[Matt Quinn]

Don't expect to buy a computer this week. just take your time and attempt to learn about all of this.

I mean, in an ideal world, yes, I'd have all kinds of time to learn about the technical stuff.  But this thing is going to be an instrument for me. If someone asks me for a recommendation on a guitar, I don't recommend they go build one. The building of one is a skill unto itself, separate from the skill of playing one. Race car drivers aren't mechanics. See what I'm saying?

Perhaps you should.

I am pretty sure that would just make me an asshole.


How about a piano player? You think they should build their own pianos?

 

[rastasean]

Don't expect to buy a computer this week. just take your time and attempt to learn about all of this.

I mean, in an ideal world, yes, I'd have all kinds of time to learn about the technical stuff.  But this thing is going to be an instrument for me. If someone asks me for a recommendation on a guitar, I don't recommend they go build one. The building of one is a skill unto itself, separate from the skill of playing one. Race car drivers aren't mechanics. See what I'm saying?

Perhaps you should.

I am pretty sure that would just make me an asshole.


How about a piano player? You think they should build their own pianos?

haha. if you had the patients to teach and explain to me how to make a piano or guitar, I would call you many positive names--not an asshole.

I think we're digressing far from what I said and that is to just spend a little time and understand acronyms, meanings, and how things work on computers. perhaps its not your thing to learn but I enjoy it and especially enjoy it on new subjects.

[Scooter123]

Before I BOUGHT my computer, I picked up several books on how to BUILD a computer, and finally understood relationships between MotherBoards and Processors, and Power Supplies and everything else, and fans and cooling, and finally and having direct connection to the Mother Board as opposed to sharing Interrupts. 

What I learned:  (1) MotherBoards are fungible and few are made specially for manufacturers, so if you like a system, chances are you can get the same MotherBoard.  (2) MotherBoards are the key to the system with set numbers of slots, USB connections, SATA connections, and other goodies such as built in video, sound and RAID; (3)  Cases are proprietary.  You might find a case which is similar, but not identical to the commerical computers; (4) Cases have everything to do with cooling and making the computer run well.  If you slap a M/B in a case and the case is not well designed for cooling, you'll need more, or more powerful fans, and then more power supply. (5) I like horizontally mounted cases, e.g., rack mount, which make everything more expensive. 

My vote is to BUY not BUILD a computer.

[Matt Quinn]

So, first issue just popped up.

I ordered Windows 7 64 bit because as I understand it, the main advantage of a 64 bit OS as opposed to a 32 bit OS is the ability to access more than 4 gigs of RAM. Since I paid to put 8gigs of RAM in this puppy, seems like running a 32 bit OS would be a waste.

So of course, I find out today that my audio interface does not play nice with 7/64bit. Not only that, but my sequencer is only a 32 bit app, so the extra RAM is useless for it as well (I think). So my OS choice is bunk for both my sequencer & my hardware.


Suggestions?  Should I downgrade to 4gig RAM or 32 bit OS? Is the RAM just going to waste if I have a 32 bit OS? I really do not want to get the box & sit around for 6 months waiting for drivers from Tascam.

[rastasean]

If you got windows 7 64 bit pro, you should be able to run programs/applications emulated in or as windows xp.

On second thought, you may not need the PRO:
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/virtual-pc/download.aspx

[Scooter123]

Every I/O that I looked at has drivers for 64b or even if they don't the old drivers work.  Example M-Audio Ultra USB and Pro Firewire.  I forget which one doesn't have a 64b driver, but the 32b works just fine.  Pretty much any Vista compatable I/O will work on 64b. 

[Red Boink]

If you're going to be doing trans-coding and rendering, think about going with a quad core.  I just put a system together using the AMD propus 620 and it is very fast and solid.  Do you have anyone close who could help you put one together?  Not just to save a buck, buy you can put exactly what you want in them.  I always put in a small fast disk for the system drive, then a program drive between 320 - 500gb, then one or two data drives 1terabyte +.  Setting up this way, you can easily back up your data.  Take your time, your going to be living with it a while and want it to be compatible... Good Luck.

John

[Scooter123]

Red's right on.  I put on a small O/S and program drive, and buy a special small SATA that runs at 15krmp.  Being smaller and faster, the system will load much faster.  Then use large SATAs for data, media, and document storage. 

[phanophish]

So, first issue just popped up.

I ordered Windows 7 64 bit because as I understand it, the main advantage of a 64 bit OS as opposed to a 32 bit OS is the ability to access more than 4 gigs of RAM. Since I paid to put 8gigs of RAM in this puppy, seems like running a 32 bit OS would be a waste.

So of course, I find out today that my audio interface does not play nice with 7/64bit. Not only that, but my sequencer is only a 32 bit app, so the extra RAM is useless for it as well (I think). So my OS choice is bunk for both my sequencer & my hardware.


Suggestions?  Should I downgrade to 4gig RAM or 32 bit OS? Is the RAM just going to waste if I have a 32 bit OS? I really do not want to get the box & sit around for 6 months waiting for drivers from Tascam.

The audio interface may be an issue.  Have you checked for updated drivers? Short of that running the Virtual XP will not resolve a driver related peripheral issue, just a particularly stubborn app.

As for the Sequencer not taking advantage of the additional RAM...  Not really a big deal.  It will still work fine.  I've had very good luck with compatibility in 7 and running the 64 bit OS still allows you to have additional RAM for apps that can take advantage of it. 

[Matt Quinn]

I actually got an email back from Tascam customer service within a couple hours (+t to them) saying that the drivers were in the last stage of QA, and barring any unforeseen issues they should be available in the next 30 days. 

The computer isn't scheduled to be delivered until 4/26,l so hopefully the drivers are out before it gets here & it's not even an issue.

[Matt Quinn]

Update: So far, nothing but problems. Literally zero music making has been done, which is exactly what I was hoping to avoid. The Tascam driver (not sure if it's a beta or a supposedly stable release) is total garbage. I can barely even stream mp3's from the Archive with the driver. So, looks like it is time to downgrade to 32 bit or XP, since this was a total failure.


ADK may be 'overcharging', but I am pretty sure I would have at least gotten more than a $1300.00 web browser out of the deal. Never underestimate the value of expertise.

[OFOTD]

Update: So far, nothing but problems. Literally zero music making has been done, which is exactly what I was hoping to avoid. The Tascam driver (not sure if it's a beta or a supposedly stable release) is total garbage. I can barely even stream mp3's from the Archive with the driver. So, looks like it is time to downgrade to 32 bit or XP, since this was a total failure.


ADK may be 'overcharging', but I am pretty sure I would have at least gotten more than a $1300.00 web browser out of the deal. Never underestimate the value of expertise.

So just to make sure we all understand you're blaming your computer for something that you've already stated is Tascam's fault?       

Tascam lists three drivers from Windows.  Which one are you using?

US-1641 Drivers:
- Windows driver ver 2.01 (64-bit)
- Windows Vista/XP driver ver 2.00 (64-bit) for US-1641
- Windows 7/Vista/XP driver ver 2.00 (32-bit) for US-1641

Have you tried this solution?   http://www.sevenforums.com/drivers/75625-tascam-us-1641-x64.html

[Matt Quinn]

I'm not really 'blaming' anyone/anything so much as stating a fact - I have yet to get anything done with this box, other than sit around & troubleshoot computer, interface, and driver issues, which, as I said, is exactly what I was trying not to do. It's probably all my own fault, but that's what I mean when I say 'Don't underestimate the value of expertise'.

I have tried all the 64 bit drivers from Tascam's site. None worked properly. I received a response to my inquiry from Tascam stating those ARE the stable release drivers for 7x64. I found one setting in the interfaces control panel that helped signifigantly, but the CPU still breaks down under way, way too light a load (ie less than my .99GB ram XP box can handle easily). 


>Have you tried this solution?   http://www.sevenforums.com/drivers/75625-tascam-us-1641-x64.html


I looked at that page but could not figure out how to apply it to my issue. Live should run fine in the OS, and I don't know how/if you can run a driver in compatability mode.



I also looked at Windows 7's XP Mode, but my version of the OS does not include it, and MS wants $199.99 to upgrade to a version that does.

[Shadow_7]

How about a piano player? You think they should build their own pianos?

I've known a few guitar players that didn't feel like real guitar players until they built their own.  As a musician myself, I often find myself branching out to reach that next level.  Physics, Math, Psychology, and other things like recording to find out what's really going on and adjust accordingly.  So learning a bit about computers wouldn't really hurt.  Although if you're that against doing that yourself, there's a number of computer professionals you could hire out to point you in a direction.  I used to be a software guy, so that's probably not me.  Although as an app guy you still have to know some things about networks and protocols and such.  You really can't NOT and stay employed / be successful.  Even that pesky hardware (battery) on the motherboard can cause certain software issues.

That said, I did take the traditional computer out of my recording needs and bought a field recorder.  Everything else I can do virtually on the PC which doesn't require an interface per say, since the resulting wav can be played on almost anything.  Or even from the field recorder (if it's in a supported format).  Now inputing midi and other effects is probably a lot more time efficient with an appropriate interface (and supporting software).

[OFOTD]

I'm not really 'blaming' anyone/anything so much as stating a fact - I have yet to get anything done with this box, other than sit around & troubleshoot computer, interface, and driver issues, which, as I said, is exactly what I was trying not to do. It's probably all my own fault, but that's what I mean when I say 'Don't underestimate the value of expertise'.

   

Your decision to go with a more established, more well regarded as well as less expensive computer over a boutique builder using off the shelf parts was a good one.  Thinking that the boutique hardware would do anything different than what you have is bogus.   The problem here entirely is between you and Tascam.   Either they aren't understanding the compatibility issues you are having or you are not understanding the solution they are or are not providing.       If they claim the drivers they provide are stable for 7x64 then what steps have you taken to install those drivers.   Have you uninstalled the previous drivers first?  Did you install the new drivers with the unit unplugged?

>Have you tried this solution?   http://www.sevenforums.com/drivers/75625-tascam-us-1641-x64.html

I looked at that page but could not figure out how to apply it to my issue. Live should run fine in the OS, and I don't know how/if you can run a driver in compatability mode.

I also looked at Windows 7's XP Mode, but my version of the OS does not include it, and MS wants $199.99 to upgrade to a version that does.

Why not just email or post in that forum to the person that got it working for his detailed solution.

Also many websites that have instructions for installing XP Mode in Home Premium.   

[Matt Quinn]

Your decision to go with a more established, more well regarded as well as less expensive computer over a boutique builder using off the shelf parts was a good one.  Thinking that the boutique hardware would do anything different than what you have is bogus.   

No, it's not. Part of the deal with ADK is that they will set up, test, and tweak your system until it works. You get a system that works, period, out of the box. All the shit I'm doing right now....they do it for you. And if there's an issue, they have phone support and people who are familiar with your exact set up, because they created it. As it stands, I have to be the go-between with Tascam, Ableton, and Dell/Microsoft.


And really, it's not been a great decision considering goal #1 was making music, and instead I'm troubleshooting computer crap.


Either way, I will get it working eventually, just definitely regret the decision to not get a professional to do this in the first place.

[OFOTD]

Either way, I will get it working eventually, just definitely regret the decision to not get a professional to do this in the first place.

Man I should start my own boutique computer building company.  It'd be like shooting fish in a barrel. 

[Shadow_7]

It might not apply, but I avoided tascam initially because some of their products while bearing the same name and model number have completely different innards.  In the case of linux and alsa, that meant that for the 122 it worked (unless you had one of the other (newer) chipsets, at which point you're screwed).  Not exactly sound business practices IMO.  Although not really the exception these days.

[rastasean]

Either way, I will get it working eventually, just definitely regret the decision to not get a professional to do this in the first place.

Man I should start my own boutique computer building company.  It'd be like shooting fish in a barrel.

don't forget the repair business where you could charge outrageous amounts of cash to remove simple spyware.

[Scooter123]

I might suggest getting Tascam's service department on the phone or their Forum; or hiring a computer geek for an hour to get this working for you.  Here in LA we have "Make It Work" for about $80 an hour.  They conquered by M Audio driver issue for me. 

[Matt Quinn]

Either way, I will get it working eventually, just definitely regret the decision to not get a professional to do this in the first place.

Man I should start my own boutique computer building company.  It'd be like shooting fish in a barrel.

I will happily pay you if you want to get on the phone & help me get this set up working.


That offer goes for anyone reading this who thinks they can help.

[martygene]

plug your stats into this place and see how it compares to ADK. they build mine and it's a great price and great working computer.

http://www.magicmicro.com/

[Chilly Brioschi]

I also looked at Windows 7's XP Mode, but my version of the OS does not include it, and MS wants $199.99 to upgrade to a version that does.

Huh?  I am under the impression that all Win7 includes compatibility mode.
Find the file that runs the program (the .exe or "executable" and right-click her and set it to the version that you want your PC to emulate)

A few thoughts:
Do not use your DAW for email, net surfing, Automatic Windows Updates, etc. at some point you will regret it.
Find a site with DAW customization info that will guide you on services, processes, and other junk to remove from Win 7.
http://www.alesis.com/tipsnov08
(Keep a network connection, but use it only when absolutely needed)
Maybe too late ...  avoid 64-bit for another 6 months to a year as audio drivers and plug-ins aren't all that great yet

[JasonSobel]

I also looked at Windows 7's XP Mode, but my version of the OS does not include it, and MS wants $199.99 to upgrade to a version that does.

Huh?  I am under the impression that all Win7 includes compatibility mode.
Find the file that runs the program (the .exe or "executable" and right-click her and set it to the version that you want your PC to emulate)

you're impression is not correct.  straight from the MS website:

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windows-7/features/windows-xp-mode.aspx
"Windows XP Mode comes as a separate download and works only with Windows 7 Professional and Ultimate"

So people with Home Premium are forced to upgrade if they need XP mode.

[phanophish]

Specifically what are you having issues with?  You say the driver does not work but I'm not getting how.  Does it not work at all?  Does the system crash? 

[Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)]

I also looked at Windows 7's XP Mode, but my version of the OS does not include it, and MS wants $199.99 to upgrade to a version that does.

Huh?  I am under the impression that all Win7 includes compatibility mode.
Find the file that runs the program (the .exe or "executable" and right-click her and set it to the version that you want your PC to emulate)

you're impression is not correct.  straight from the MS website:

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windows-7/features/windows-xp-mode.aspx
"Windows XP Mode comes as a separate download and works only with Windows 7 Professional and Ultimate"

So people with Home Premium are forced to upgrade if they need XP mode.

Compatibility Mode and XP Mode are 2 separate things.

You are correct, XP Mode is only available in Win 7 Pro and Ultimate. It also requires an additional download. It's going to be the best way to run programs that don't work on Vista/Win 7

To use compatibility mode you right click on the exe file you are having trouble with, click Properties, then choose the Compatibility tab, then put a check next to, Run this program in compatibility mode for: and choose the OS you need (probably XP SP3 will work).

I checked this on my computer with Windows 7 Home Premium and it has it.

Not sure if it will fix your problem, but that is where it is.

[Matt Quinn]

Specifically what are you having issues with?  You say the driver does not work but I'm not getting how.  Does it not work at all?  Does the system crash?

No crashing.


I can open & run Live for as long as I want, but at some point - sometimes after 2 minutes, sometimes after 45 minutes - the audio playback breaks down into basically nothing but clicks, pops, and crackles. It's not the recorded audio, but the audio *playback* - I know this because if I record an analog audio signal to a track while the noise is present, save it, then apply my workaround (more on that in a sec), the recorded signal does NOT have the noise in it. It plays back fine.


The only workaround I have found, and what led me to believe it was a driver issue involves going into the Tascam's Control Panel Software. There's a few options in there

1. Latency - options = Very Low/Low/Normal/High/Very High.

I have tried all those options, nothing changes.

2. Digital output format: options = Aes/EBU or S/PDIF.

Tried both, makes no difference, I leave it on S/PDIF.

3. Clock source: Options = Automatic or Internal

Internal causes the 1641 to generate it's own clock. 'Automatic' is the proper setting to use if you want to use the 1641's digital inputs. This setting causes the 1641 to lock to the incoming digital signal's clock. The 'correct' setting to leave it on is automatic, as it should switch between internal & the digital input automatically depending on whether or not a digital signal is present at the input.



This is the setting that I use for my workaround. When the clicks/pops/crackles begin, if I go to that option, and switch it to whatever it is not on, Live works fine again - for another 2-45 minutes. Then I can repeat the work around process. To be clear, it's not one setting or the other that makes it work, it is the act of *switching* to the unused option that seems to bring Live back to it's senses.

Oh, it is not a problem unique to Live. It happens in Winamp, Windows Media Player, VLC,  anything that plays back audio. HOWEVER - if I pull the Tascam out of the equation & plug a pair of headphones directly into the computer, all of these program work just fine. At this point, I was sure it was the Tascam driver.


I decided to purchase another interface & say to hell with the Tascam. ordered a Presonus Firestudio Project. It arrived, plugged it in - same.exact.problem. Pops, clicks, crackles. PLayed around a bit, couldn't get it going, returned it so I wouldn't end up eating the money.



Oh, also, the Tascam works fine with my Windows XP machine, so I know it's not a hardware issue.

[phanophish]

Have you tried disabling the other sound card(s) (probably native to the motherboard) in the BIOS or physically removing them if they are an add in?  My guess is that you are having an issue with Windows 7 permitting you to have multiple playback devices.  I had some similar issues when using the Linksys WMB54G Wireless-G Music Bridge as it acts as a secondary sound card, for some reason Windows occasionally tries to default back.  Is there any reason you need a audio playback device other than the Tascam?

Have a read through some of this...

http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/device/audio/w7-defaudioendptsel.mspx

http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/device/audio/default.mspx

[Matt Quinn]

Have you tried disabling the other sound card(s) (probably native to the motherboard) in the BIOS or physically removing them if they are an add in?

I've tried disabling them in the Device manager, no effect at all. I don't understand anything about BIOS settings.

Is there any reason you need a audio playback device other than the Tascam?

Nope, not at all. I'd be perfectly fine with having the Tascam handle everything.

Have a read through some of this...

http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/device/audio/w7-defaudioendptsel.mspx

http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/device/audio/default.mspx

That stuff is way over my head, honestly. I don't even know where to start there.

[Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)]

Changing the BIOS is EASY.

Just hit the DELETE key (or whatever your system says to push to enter the BIOS). It is very easy to look around at the settings to find how to disable the on-board audio.

Once you set it to DISABLED (or similar) just hit F10, and then YES, and you should be good to go.

I haven't read this entire thread, but you also might want to try to put the Audio Card in another slot. I keep my audio card in the FARTHEST slot away from the video card.

I consider myself to be pretty good with computers...and I FRIGGIN HATE audio settings and config in Windows. So don't feel too bad.

Good luck.

[Matt Quinn]

Changing the BIOS is EASY.

Just hit the DELETE key (or whatever your system says to push to enter the BIOS). It is very easy to look around at the settings to find how to disable the on-board audio.

Once you set it to DISABLED (or similar) just hit F10, and then YES, and you should be good to go.

Poked around in the BIOS, there's no option to disable audio, just the whole USB controller. 

And fwiw, I've tried the Tascam in every USB port on the computer, none have worked.

[phanophish]

Here are instructions for a similar PC...

http://en.community.dell.com/support-forums/desktop/f/3514/p/19299696/19571067.aspx

[Matt Quinn]

Here are instructions for a similar PC...

http://en.community.dell.com/support-forums/desktop/f/3514/p/19299696/19571067.aspx

Many thanks!


Got into the setting, it was in a slightly different place on my computer, but it was definitely for disabling the integrated audio. Said something about HDMI as well, which my computer has an output for. Got the Tascam driver installed properly, and I'm playing back audio in Media Player just fine so far. 


Fingers crossed, as I definitely need to let it run for a bit longer before I get my hopes up, but this is looking promising. It's definitely not something I would ever have known to look for, and I would've expected Tascam's tech support to suggest a fix like this, so I don't feel crazy for having missed it.

[phanophish]

Cool, hope it winds up being the magic bullet......

[Matt Quinn]

Cool, hope it winds up being the magic bullet......

Question for you: if this was the problem, who would you think is more responsible, Tascam or Dell? I'd just like to alert the proper people so that hopefully no one ever has to deal with this again. 

[Matt Quinn]

Fail. Same problem.


 

[phanophish]

Probably a Tascam Driver issue then.........

Check on Dell's site for any updated drivers, and install them if there are any available...

Then I'd uninstall the Tascam driver and reinstall it one more time to be sure rebooting after the uninstall and reinstall both, but if that does not clear up the issue it is almost certainly a Tascam driver issue.

[runonce]

Changing the BIOS is EASY.

Just hit the DELETE key (or whatever your system says to push to enter the BIOS). It is very easy to look around at the settings to find how to disable the on-board audio.

Once you set it to DISABLED (or similar) just hit F10, and then YES, and you should be good to go.

Poked around in the BIOS, there's no option to disable audio, just the whole USB controller. 

And fwiw, I've tried the Tascam in every USB port on the computer, none have worked.

This BIOS suggestion is only useful if your motherboard has built in sound...

My question - why are you screwing around with Win7 if it works perfectly on XP? - surely the hardware upgrade was worth it...but why not stick with XP? - or at least a dual boot system?
Unless you really needed something that Win7 had - why bother?

[Matt Quinn]

My question - why are you screwing around with Win7 if it works perfectly on XP? - surely the hardware upgrade was worth it...but why not stick with XP? - or at least a dual boot system?
Unless you really needed something that Win7 had - why bother?

The idea had occured to me. I have no idea how to go about installing an OS though, and even if I could go to XP, I will have paid for 4GB or RAM that will be sitting there useless. There's also the possibility that the issue is somewhere between the USBport>motherboard, in which case an OS change won't help. Also, if something gets fucked up, no one will fix it, and I'll be stuck with a even more useless box than I have now. At this point, I think I'm just going to make it a media computer for the living room and get a custom built one. I have just had it. Expensive lesson.

[runonce]

My question - why are you screwing around with Win7 if it works perfectly on XP? - surely the hardware upgrade was worth it...but why not stick with XP? - or at least a dual boot system?
Unless you really needed something that Win7 had - why bother?

The idea had occured to me. I have no idea how to go about installing an OS though, and even if I could go to XP, I will have paid for 4GB or RAM that will be sitting there useless. There's also the possibility that the issue is somewhere between the USBport>motherboard, in which case an OS change won't help. Also, if something gets fucked up, no one will fix it, and I'll be stuck with a even more useless box than I have now. At this point, I think I'm just going to make it a media computer for the living room and get a custom built one. I have just had it. Expensive lesson.

Well - 2 gigs will be useless...

Installing XP should be as easy as: defrag win 7 disk - insert XP disc - it will walk you through the install pretty easily - partitioning the drive into workable sizes will be the biggest trick...(although - dont take my word for it...others who have done this should chime in). You wont be the first guy to do this - so dont feel like you are in uncharted territory.

And dont take this the wrong way  - but dont be so apprehensive about messing around with your computer. Go for it -  you really cant break anything. And if its not doing what you want now - what do you have to lose? OS intalls are pretty easy and automated...you'll be surprised.

[Matt Quinn]

4 Gigs - there's 8GB in the box & 4 are addressable by XP. So 4 would be useless.


>And dont take this the wrong way  - but dont be so apprehensive about messing around with your computer. Go for it -  you really cant break anything.



Um. You can very, very easily break things. And while the computer is NOT doing what I want it to now, it is perfectly fine for someone who is not trying to do audio production with it. So I could potentially lose a perfectly good email/internet/media computer by fucking around with it.

[runonce]

4 Gigs - there's 8GB in the box & 4 are addressable by XP. So 4 would be useless.


>And dont take this the wrong way  - but dont be so apprehensive about messing around with your computer. Go for it -  you really cant break anything.



Um. You can very, very easily break things. And while the computer is NOT doing what I want it to now, it is perfectly fine for someone who is not trying to do audio production with it. So I could potentially lose a perfectly good email/internet/media computer by fucking around with it.

Gotcha on the 4/8 gig thing...my bad.

There is nothing you could do - short of hitting it with a hammer - that cant be fixed in a hour by a computer savy person...So I have to disagree with you there...

[rastasean]

Um. You can very, very easily break things. And while the computer is NOT doing what I want it to now, it is perfectly fine for someone who is not trying to do audio production with it. So I could potentially lose a perfectly good email/internet/media computer by fucking around with it.

Like runonce said, short of PHYSICAL damage, you won't do anything bad. These software/driver issues are not like performing a mod on a recorder where you actually replace pre-amps and could damage it.

IF you do decide to get a new machine, would you use the same exact tascam setup or do you have something else in mind?

[Matt Quinn]

Um. You can very, very easily break things. And while the computer is NOT doing what I want it to now, it is perfectly fine for someone who is not trying to do audio production with it. So I could potentially lose a perfectly good email/internet/media computer by fucking around with it.

Like runonce said, short of PHYSICAL damage, you won't do anything bad. These software/driver issues are not like performing a mod on a recorder where you actually replace pre-amps and could damage it.

IF you do decide to get a new machine, would you use the same exact tascam setup or do you have something else in mind?

I have no idea how you guys can say with such confidence nothing bad will happen. Again, I will pay anyone here a bunch of money if you can get on the phone & walk me through setting this thing up & getting it working. The Tascam driver is confirmed to work on multiple other systems, so yes, I will stay with it.

[rastasean]

Um. You can very, very easily break things. And while the computer is NOT doing what I want it to now, it is perfectly fine for someone who is not trying to do audio production with it. So I could potentially lose a perfectly good email/internet/media computer by fucking around with it.

Like runonce said, short of PHYSICAL damage, you won't do anything bad. These software/driver issues are not like performing a mod on a recorder where you actually replace pre-amps and could damage it.

IF you do decide to get a new machine, would you use the same exact tascam setup or do you have something else in mind?

I have no idea how you guys can say with such confidence nothing bad will happen. Again, I will pay anyone here a bunch of money if you can get on the phone & walk me through setting this thing up & getting it working. The Tascam driver is confirmed to work on multiple other systems, so yes, I will stay with it.

find us a way to be able to remote into the machine as well. discussing the problem on the phone/message boards are one thing but remoting in is ideal.

www.bomgar.com is a remote way that I personally know of. Don't know if end users can use it, though.

[Jhurlbs81]

Is Remote Desktop or Remote Assistance not available on Win 7 home?

[Matt Quinn]

Just spoke to Dell, after one of the more frustrating CS experiences of my life, they are sending someone to replace the motherboard. Please cross your fingers for me, because if this doesn't work there is a suicidal or homicidal rage in my near future.

[rastasean]

Well this could be positive (mobo replacement--not the suicide/murder)

I'm assuming you've tried various usb things and they all work, don't work, fail?

Just spoke to Dell, after one of the more frustrating CS experiences of my life, they are sending someone to replace the motherboard. Please cross your fingers for me, because if this doesn't work there is a suicidal or homicidal rage in my near future.

[Matt Quinn]

date=1274727868]
Well this could be positive (mobo replacement--not the suicide/murder)

I'm assuming you've tried various usb things and they all work, don't work, fail?


[/quote]



Everything *seems* to work with the exception of the Tascam & Presonus units. But to be fair, I haven't plugged much else in - USB hard drive, keyboard, mouse, and Alphatrack, that is it. All those worked fine.  However, the fact that 2 seperate known-good interfaces both crapped when plugged into this system tells me something is not right.

[runonce]

A new mobo sounds like putting a new engine a car that only needs an oil change...

Considering USB seems to work otherwise - this seems like a long shot. I guess we'll know soon.

Your audio problems sound very Linux-y, usually driver related.

Hope it works out...

[Matt Quinn]

A new mobo sounds like putting a new engine a car that only needs an oil change...

You know, again - I'm happy to entertain other solutions. Do you have any ideas as to solving the actual problem? Metaphors don't help.

[Matt Quinn]

Problem = solved. The wireless card needed to be disabled in device manager. I had tried disabling the driver previously, that didn't work, but disabling the entire device fixes the problem entirely. Must be some kind of conflict.

At any rate, I do appreciate all the help from everyone, even after all the issues, I am now working with a really nice computer for a lot less cash. So thanks!

[rastasean]

Problem = solved. The wireless card needed to be disabled in device manager. I had tried disabling the driver previously, that didn't work, but disabling the entire device fixes the problem entirely. Must be some kind of conflict.

At any rate, I do appreciate all the help from everyone, even after all the issues, I am now working with a really nice computer for a lot less cash. So thanks!

See, Matt... The oddest things are the problem solvers. Interesting why a desktop would have wireless but glad to hear it has finally been resolved.

Who figured out the issue? I guess a new mobo wasn't called for, correct?

[phanophish]

FWIW I would suggest disabling the Wireless NIC in the BIOS as well if it is built in to the Motherboard if you really want to avoid conficts.  It might also do you some good to update the BIOS and also check if there are updated drivers for your wireless card.  It is possible that could get everything playing well together.

I'd also totally understand if you don't want to touch anything!

[Matt Quinn]

Who figured out the issue? I guess a new mobo wasn't called for, correct?

I did. I was digging on a Dell forum, and found an old post from someone who said that he was having the same issue, and that he disabled his wireless card from scanning an old band (802a or something), and that fixed the issue entirely. I went looking for similar settings, didn't find anything, and just tried disabling it entirely, and presto - worked perfectly. Yes, fairly safe to say the new mobo was not necessary.

FWIW I would suggest disabling the Wireless NIC in the BIOS as well if it is built in to the Motherboard if you really want to avoid conficts.  It might also do you some good to update the BIOS and also check if there are updated drivers for your wireless card.  It is possible that could get everything playing well together.

I'd also totally understand if you don't want to touch anything!

I may do that, but there's is a network drop right near the computer, so it's no big thing to plug in. It's actually not even our wireless network that the computer connects to, so probably a better idea all around. And yes, I'm going to finish a song or 2 before I F with anything.

[Jhurlbs81]

Problem = solved.