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Gear / Technical Help => Recording Gear => Topic started by: Rick on May 02, 2008, 02:36:48 PM

Title: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Rick on May 02, 2008, 02:36:48 PM
Continued from http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,97214.0.html

I love this little guy  :)


(http://www.harmony-central.com/ProductImages/Medium/000032243.jpg)

Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: kskreider on May 02, 2008, 03:07:47 PM
.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Gutbucket on May 02, 2008, 03:25:53 PM
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Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: BJacobsen on May 02, 2008, 04:27:45 PM
I like this guy too.  My problem is that no one seems to have them until the end of May.  Does anyone know where I can locate one in the next two weeks???

Thanks Brian
BJacobsen.a-j@comcast.net
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: digifish_music on May 02, 2008, 07:13:40 PM
In case you are wondering the Japanese are doing everything they can to produce more R44s...

First a mating pair is introduced -

(http://lh4.ggpht.com/surround2011org/SAoTAIOBzDI/AAAAAAAACDw/om5NO8OUlbE/IMG_0633.JPG?imgmax=800)

If conditions are right

(http://lh3.ggpht.com/surround2011org/SBeCzTcOSDI/AAAAAAAACOs/_Dd_1_nv5dg/DSC09928.JPG?imgmax=800)

...they will bond and mate...

(http://lh4.ggpht.com/surround2011org/SAoU1IOBzII/AAAAAAAACEw/pBDdrnpXPjE/IMG_0642.JPG?imgmax=800)

The breeding pair enter the their den, previously prepared by the male R44, where the female gives birth to a clutch of R-09HRs, these mature into R44s and emerge from the den 6 weeks later.

(http://lh4.ggpht.com/surround2011org/SAAngZ2imrI/AAAAAAAAB78/iELUMS0BaDs/IMG_0551.JPG?imgmax=800)

Teams of highly trained R44 trappers enter the woods to capture the prize recorders...they are attracted to microphones which are used as bait.

(http://lh3.ggpht.com/surround2011org/SBcbzTcORzI/AAAAAAAACJ8/Thjdh7oib3c/DSC09948.JPG?imgmax=800)

Here we see a captured R44 bound for the US market we believe...

(http://lh4.ggpht.com/surround2011org/SBd9jjcOR9I/AAAAAAAACMo/eZNbVP93WRs/DSC00009.JPG?imgmax=800)



Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Gutbucket on May 02, 2008, 08:01:32 PM
 ;D
Teams of highly trained R44 trappers tapers enter the woods to capture the prize recorders...they are attracted to microphones which are used as bait. As are the tapers themselves.

Dang it, I ate all the bait again.

Always wondered about the details of the manufacturing process.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: boa on May 02, 2008, 11:17:33 PM
I came across an issue today:

- While running Digital In (16/44.1) onto aTranscend 16gb type 6 sdhc card, I continually encountered the "SD SLOW ERROR".  This error surfaced when the card was 1/2 full as well as newly formatted. After switching the 16gb card with a Transcend 4gb type 6 card, I have not encountered the issue again.


Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on May 03, 2008, 12:10:07 AM
The specified max card size is 8Gb I think?  So maybe some kind of firmware upgrade is required for larger sizes in due course.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: BayTaynt3d on May 03, 2008, 01:31:46 AM
I came across an issue today:

- While running Digital In (16/44.1) onto aTranscend 16gb type 6 sdhc card, I continually encountered the "SD SLOW ERROR".  This error surfaced when the card was 1/2 full as well as newly formatted. After switching the 16gb card with a Transcend 4gb type 6 card, I have not encountered the issue again.




Let me guess, 4xMono?

If so, just use 2xStereo. People don't like that answer, but hey, if it works...
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: BayTaynt3d on May 03, 2008, 01:37:49 AM
Quote
Is it known whether the input level knob, the continuously variable one, operates in the analogue or digital domain?  The block diagram shows it after the A/D but given that it seems wrong about the limiter, maybe it's wrong about the input level.

I'd like to know this too cause if it's true, I'm not sure I'd ever use the interior knob at all then. If it's just digitally raising/lowering the levels on the fine adjust, that's something I'd rather do in post (one time, instead of twice, once in the unit and a second time in post) -- it also seems like that would not be able to protect you from overs then, you have to make sure you aren't clipping while the fine adjust is at 0, cause if you are, then lowering it would just cause flat wavs that are lower than 0 dbfs, like bricking does. I seriously wonder about this whole thing, I'd like to think this and the limiter are analog, but I have no idea...
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: intpseeker on May 03, 2008, 09:44:55 AM
"Here we see a captured R44 bound for the US market we believe..."

What is that mic bar sitting on the tarp in the last picture? Looks like a 'T' with simple mic clips on the ends. Is this standard equipment for 4 channel ambient recording?

Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on May 03, 2008, 10:26:50 AM
Quote
it also seems like that would not be able to protect you from overs then, you have to make sure you aren't clipping while the fine adjust is at 0, cause if you are, then lowering it would just cause flat wavs that are lower than 0 dbfs, like bricking does.
Fortunately the preamps have their own clip indicator to the left of each meter.  If you reduce the level of the inner knob below the "noon" position in order to avoid the digital clip indicator to the right of each meter being triggered, then almost by definition the preamp will be clipping anyway.  If you turn it above the "noon" position, and you don't trigger the digital clip indicator, you can be sure that the preamp will not be clipping.  If you turn it up to the limit, you are adding 8dB of gain, and if the meter is still not getting near full scale, then you might as well turn up the preamp gain (outer ring) by one click to add 6dB gain there, and reduce the inner knob back to the noon position.

If the inner knob is digital gain, indeed there is no difference between using that and using digital gain in your DAW software later.  If it's analog, then you could use it to get the highest permissable level into the A/D converter, which might give you slightly better noise figures - but the difference would be extremely subtle, I suspect.

Overall, think of the inner knob as the fader of a mixer channel and the outer ring as the channel trim.  But because the trim is stepped, if you did want to gain ride the incoming audio (in particular, raising the gain if the performance level falls), you'd use the inner knob so as not to get 6dB jumps.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: boa on May 03, 2008, 10:30:33 AM
I came across an issue today:

- While running Digital In (16/44.1) onto aTranscend 16gb type 6 sdhc card, I continually encountered the "SD SLOW ERROR".  This error surfaced when the card was 1/2 full as well as newly formatted. After switching the 16gb card with a Transcend 4gb type 6 card, I have not encountered the issue again.




Let me guess, 4xMono?

If so, just use 2xStereo. People don't like that answer, but hey, if it works...

Nope. Stereo X 1.

Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Rick on May 03, 2008, 10:37:08 AM
I came across an issue today:

- While running Digital In (16/44.1) onto aTranscend 16gb type 6 sdhc card, I continually encountered the "SD SLOW ERROR".  This error surfaced when the card was 1/2 full as well as newly formatted. After switching the 16gb card with a Transcend 4gb type 6 card, I have not encountered the issue again.




Let me guess, 4xMono?

If so, just use 2xStereo. People don't like that answer, but hey, if it works...

Nope. Stereo X 1.



Now that's odd. Its got to be something with the card. I mean 1xStereo @ 16/44 is hardly taxing. I've been doing digital-in @ 24/44 with a 8GB Transcend card with no issues.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: boa on May 03, 2008, 10:42:23 AM
Now that's odd. Its got to be something with the card. I mean 1xStereo @ 16/44 is hardly taxing. I've been doing digital-in @ 24/44 with a 8GB Transcend card with no issues.

What type rating is the Transcend 8gb card you are using?
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Rick on May 03, 2008, 02:30:02 PM
Now that's odd. Its got to be something with the card. I mean 1xStereo @ 16/44 is hardly taxing. I've been doing digital-in @ 24/44 with a 8GB Transcend card with no issues.

What type rating is the Transcend 8gb card you are using?

Class 6
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: mfoley on May 04, 2008, 04:53:08 AM
I came across an issue today:

- While running Digital In (16/44.1) onto aTranscend 16gb type 6 sdhc card, I continually encountered the "SD SLOW ERROR".  This error surfaced when the card was 1/2 full as well as newly formatted. After switching the 16gb card with a Transcend 4gb type 6 card, I have not encountered the issue again.




I've had issues with Transcend 16 gb cards as well.   Panasonic and Toshiba 16gb cards are the only ones that have been tested and proved to work with the R44.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on May 04, 2008, 08:38:10 AM
Meanwhile, I used mine for real at a string quartet recital this afternoon - with the Sennheiser MKH series MS pair - not stealth or anything, it's an official recording for a classical music FM radio station - and I'm extremely pleased with the outcome.  Only problem was that the venue suffered from distant traffic rumble, so it won't serve as an illustration of how good the preamps seem to be.  Well, they sure record low frequency rumble accurately...

It only occurred to me last night how well the thing is physically designed.  No controls or whatever touch the surface if you put it down on its sides, or upside down (helped in that case by the bumps of the internal mics).  And the wedge-shaped side cheeks help protect the front knobs.  There's almost no reasonable angle at which the display can't be seen.  I found the tiny meters perfectly usable today - peaked to -2dB (I like it hot!).  I used my Tevion battery pack, which with only two channels of phantom barely lost any charge in recording the rehearsal and the 90 minute concert.  In any event I had rechargeables in the R-44 battery bay as well.  Headphone output seems perfectly sufficient - I was sitting at the back of the hall and didn't need to drive the cans more than the half way point in order to hear against the natural sound.

So many cool little touches - for instance, drop a marker during recording, think "oops, I didn't need one there" and press "clear" and the marker is deleted on the fly.  The facility to have preset auto filenames is handy to - before the gig I set up names for rehearsal, part1, and part2, and then you just pick the one you want without having to 'type' them in again.

My only gripe remains the monitoring issue.  It's a nuisance to have to carry and connect up a monitor mixer for four-channel work.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: BayTaynt3d on May 04, 2008, 11:58:44 AM
I came across an issue today:

- While running Digital In (16/44.1) onto aTranscend 16gb type 6 sdhc card, I continually encountered the "SD SLOW ERROR".  This error surfaced when the card was 1/2 full as well as newly formatted. After switching the 16gb card with a Transcend 4gb type 6 card, I have not encountered the issue again.




I've had issues with Transcend 16 gb cards as well.   Panasonic and Toshiba 16gb cards are the only ones that have been tested and proved to work with the R44.

Not that your actual cards are, but there's A LOT of fake/counterfeit "Transcend" cards on the market. As long as you bought from a reputable dealer, that probably isn't the problem, but if you bought a super low-priced card from a random vendor, it could easily be the problem.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: sonidista on May 05, 2008, 05:44:39 AM
Has anyone connected the R-44's USB port to a Mac? Any problems there? Just curious...
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Colin Liston on May 05, 2008, 09:39:30 AM
Just checking in on this thread.  Carry on.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: picklemic on May 06, 2008, 04:10:59 PM
I came across an issue today:

- While running Digital In (16/44.1) onto aTranscend 16gb type 6 sdhc card, I continually encountered the "SD SLOW ERROR".  This error surfaced when the card was 1/2 full as well as newly formatted. After switching the 16gb card with a Transcend 4gb type 6 card, I have not encountered the issue again.




I've had issues with Transcend 16 gb cards as well.   Panasonic and Toshiba 16gb cards are the only ones that have been tested and proved to work with the R44.

Not that your actual cards are, but there's A LOT of fake/counterfeit "Transcend" cards on the market. As long as you bought from a reputable dealer, that probably isn't the problem, but if you bought a super low-priced card from a random vendor, it could easily be the problem.
I just got back from NOLA Jazzfest and I had problems with a Transcend 8GB 6 class card from New egg. You think they will take it back?
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: easy jim on May 06, 2008, 04:33:29 PM
Has anyone connected the R-44's USB port to a Mac? Any problems there? Just curious...

Zero problems with the R-4 Pro, so I'd be shocked if there are any with the R-44.  It mounts as an external HD.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: BayTaynt3d on May 06, 2008, 09:33:09 PM
I came across an issue today:

- While running Digital In (16/44.1) onto aTranscend 16gb type 6 sdhc card, I continually encountered the "SD SLOW ERROR".  This error surfaced when the card was 1/2 full as well as newly formatted. After switching the 16gb card with a Transcend 4gb type 6 card, I have not encountered the issue again.




I've had issues with Transcend 16 gb cards as well.   Panasonic and Toshiba 16gb cards are the only ones that have been tested and proved to work with the R44.

Not that your actual cards are, but there's A LOT of fake/counterfeit "Transcend" cards on the market. As long as you bought from a reputable dealer, that probably isn't the problem, but if you bought a super low-priced card from a random vendor, it could easily be the problem.
I just got back from NOLA Jazzfest and I had problems with a Transcend 8GB 6 class card from New egg. You think they will take it back?

Could you be more specific? What error? What problems? What bit rate? What format? 2xStereo, 4xMono, 1xStereo?
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: picklemic on May 06, 2008, 11:03:20 PM
I was running it at 24/48 2xstereo and 24/96 1xstereo and it was working fine and then the next time I put it in it took for ever to turn on(processing). And I could put in my 4GB card and it fires right up. Then I put the 8 back in and I got the slow card on the screen and the levels and time went slow. And the file(?) doesn't play in the unit.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: sonidista on May 08, 2008, 03:42:00 AM
Is there an "official" list of SDHC crad brands suitable for the R-44? Toshiba and Panasonic have been mentioned here, Transcend apparently don't work so well, how about Sandisk and others?

Is there a minimum class compulsive for SDHC cards?
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: NOLAfishwater on May 08, 2008, 10:13:00 AM
after searching Toshiba and Panasonic 8 and 16GB SD cards I found that they are class 4 type. so then I searched other class 4 cards and found many different choices: http://www.google.com/products?hl=en&q=class+4+16gb+sd&um=1&ie=UTF-8&checkout=1&sa=X&oi=product_result&resnum=1&ct=checkout-restrict

Cheapest of the search.

PNY 8gb $29 + shipping
http://www.techpalooza.com/showproduct.aspx?productid=1053096

PNY 16gb $76 + shipping
http://www.beachaudio.com/Pny/P-Sdhc16g4-Fs-p-138001.html?utm_campaign=froogle&utm_content=reg&utm_term=p-sdhc16g4-fs&utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=froogle&GTKW=p-sdhc16g4-fs&GCID=C12585x003

I am very curious about the PNY's working with the R-44, especially b/c they are half the price.



Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: picklemic on May 08, 2008, 11:31:34 AM
Now my TS8Gsdhc6 now comes displays PJR #999. >:( :-\ when in the 44
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: sonidista on May 09, 2008, 03:33:19 AM
ordered mine today... they're finally available in Germany too. Can't wait to try this thing out.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on May 09, 2008, 07:22:32 AM
Tonight I had the chance to try the R-44 in a recording studio.  I used the same mics and the same levels as I'd recently used for a string quartet concert in a church.  Then I simply recorded the 'silence' in the studio.  Now I can edit that onto the fortissimo ending of one of the quartet pieces (peaks to about -2dB below full scale), and simulate the full dynamic range available.

The mics were very low noise Sennheiser MKH series connected direct to the R-44, so the test is close to optimum in my view.

I'll plan to put that together that compiled sample shortly and put it on line.  If an mp3 version seems to me as good as a wave version for illustrating the dynamic range, I'll mp3 the sample, otherwise it will be wave 44.1/16 (as recorded) and rather large.

Now one thing I can already say is that the R-44 in 16 bit mode is capable of revealing the shortcomings of this particular studio.  The 'silence' actually includes the sound of people talking in the corridor outside, through the double doors to the studio, together with a trace of background electrical hum which was also present when I monitored the mics from the studio control room (Grace preamps), so it wasn't the R-44 humming.  You have to turn the headphones right up to hear these sounds but the R-44 is perfectly capable of recording them, with no attendant preamp hiss that I can hear.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on May 09, 2008, 08:22:46 AM
Here you go -

http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/22/1451533/R-44%20dynamc%20range.mp3

I listened very carefully to the wave version vs this mp3 version and I can't hear anything about the mp3 (256kbps) which, compared to the wave file, invalidates its use for this dynamic range example.

The original was 44.1kHz, 16 bits, preamp level -38dB, input level 0dB (12 o'clock position of the fader knob).

The music was recorded on location, and the following 'silence' in a recording studio, same mics, same levels.

To my mind, if the noise performance of the R-44 was any better, you'd have a hard job finding a location quiet enough to make it worthwhile, or mics quiet enough.

And no, I don't think a 24 bit recording would have provided a different result, as the recording studio background noise level was greater than that which needs more than 16 bits to capture (at risk of staring an argument...)
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: NOLAfishwater on May 09, 2008, 11:13:35 AM
thanks for posting +T. can't wait for mine to get here.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: hypnotoad on May 09, 2008, 01:03:09 PM
Thanks for the sound tests Ozpeter +T.  I wonder when these units are actually going to be back in stock for ordering.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: NOLAfishwater on May 09, 2008, 05:25:50 PM
This will be my set up when it comes in:

Ch 1&2: AKG 414>V3>R-44 SPDIF + Ch 3&4: AKG460>R-44 Analog (w/ Limiter On)

or

Ch 1&2: AKG>V3>R-44SPDIF + SBD Patch>R-44 Analog
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on May 09, 2008, 07:47:40 PM
Forgot to mention that the limiter was not on in the sample I posted, so the dynamics are entirely natural.  The only thing that was on apart from phantom was the R-44 "MS" effect,.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: sonidista on May 13, 2008, 12:07:40 PM
Here, I got my unit today. Overall first impression is good. If you're -like me- gonna use the R-44 for dialogue recording, I recommend using a (portable) preamp, since phantom powered condenser mics require a high sensitivity level, and if you crank that up on the R-44 the noise level is quite high.

Apart from that, the R-44 is nice and easy to use, Not as heavy as I thought yet it seems robust. The internal mics are pretty noisy, too, though they sound OK otherwise. No problems using a Kingston class 6 8GB SDHC card. Monitoring could be louder - again, spoken from a dialogue recording point of view.
Menu and display are nice, although input levels on the display are too vague if you have to deal with unexpected peaks. The limiter seems alright and better (softer) than others on digital units I've used (Nagra Ares BB).

One question I have not been able to answer from teh manual: does anyone know at what frequency the Low Cut cuts off?
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: qpwoei on May 13, 2008, 12:31:07 PM
...
Now one thing I can already say is that the R-44 in 16 bit mode is capable of revealing the shortcomings of this particular studio.  The 'silence' actually includes the sound of people talking in the corridor outside, through the double doors to the studio, together with a trace of background electrical hum which was also
...

The MKH's huge sensitivity hadn't anything to do? My MKH60 (40 mV) catches the noise of two fingers rubbing at 2 m (the main reason that these mics are used often for nature recording). Not trying to understimate the R44 or anything, just saying that for testing purposes... less 'peculiar' mics would be better
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on May 13, 2008, 06:58:26 PM
Quote
phantom powered condenser mics require a high sensitivity level
Some do, some don't.  As someone has commented above, the MHK series mics I use don't, and the very cheap Naiant mics I've also been trying with it have an even higher output level than the MKH's  (subjectively anyway).   I'd have thought that if you're recording quiet stuff with low output mics, you're simply using the wrong mics for the job (though of course not everyone can afford mics appropriate to each task!).

I just can't hear (or see on spectral analysis) significant noise levels from the R-44 preamps in any practical situation (including speech recording) that I've encountered so far.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Gutbucket on May 13, 2008, 09:51:59 PM
Here you go -

http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/22/1451533/R-44%20dynamc%20range.mp3

I listened very carefully to the wave version vs this mp3 version and I can't hear anything about the mp3 (256kbps) which, compared to the wave file, invalidates its use for this dynamic range example.

The original was 44.1kHz, 16 bits, preamp level -38dB, input level 0dB (12 o'clock position of the fader knob).

The music was recorded on location, and the following 'silence' in a recording studio, same mics, same levels.

To my mind, if the noise performance of the R-44 was any better, you'd have a hard job finding a location quiet enough to make it worthwhile, or mics quiet enough.

And no, I don't think a 24 bit recording would have provided a different result, as the recording studio background noise level was greater than that which needs more than 16 bits to capture (at risk of staring an argument...)

I'm impressed by the absence of noise in that sample and I'm encouraged so far by all reports except the price increase and the Transcend 16gb card issues. I've only really run my R-09's with external preamps, but I'd rather not use them with the R-44 if it can compare sonically. Noise performance is a big part of that battle, although not all of it.

I ran two simultaneous R-09 rigs a month or so back for 4 tracks outdoors, one a foot behind the other-
ADK TL's (Blumlein) > V3 > R-09
DPA 4060's (39" A-B) > MMA6000 > R-09

Both sources sound quite nice, different in the ways you might expect.  I'd only played then back separately off a laptop 'till last weekend.  On a lark, I plugged the outputs of both R-09's into my surround receiver, the Blumlein to the fronts, spaced omnis to the rears, loaded the files on the cards and pushed play simultaneously (I'd tried to start the recordings simultaneously to get them as close as possible).  Damn, it was spot on.. and stayed that way for the whole set.  Very nice surround, enveloping ambience and audience, especially real sounding bass end.  I just got a copy of Samplitude Master but haven't played with it yet to sync them.  Obviously this 'mixing in air' scenario is more accommodating of small amounts of drift than mixing bits to stereo with potential comb filtering issues.  But I was really surprised that I heard no drift over a 1:15 set.  It will be interesting to see how close they really are.  I did have both recorders in the same bag so they were the same temperature while recording.  Encouraging, but of course that much easier for you R-44'ers.  I assume the R-44 can delay one pair during playback as a playback effect for mic distance sync or surround delay.

Had to test out running stealth surround for my regular Sunday jazz gig.  Oh baby.  Am I going to have to do this for everything now?

Carry on.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on May 13, 2008, 10:09:27 PM
Damn, my Transcend 8Gb card has just died.  I recorded a test using it in the R-44, played it back, turned off the R-44, removed card, inserted into PC cardreader and - nothing.  It now won't work in anything. 

So, repeated the test using a Panasonic 8Gb card, which seems to have survived the experience.  What this test does is to attempt to show R-44 preamp noise, or lack of, at full preamp gain.  Again, I used the Sennheiser MKH mics as it seems to be logical to use low noise mics for such a test.  First you hear the sound of a tiny clock about 2 inches from the mics, in a quiet suburban bedroom during the day.  Quiet, you say??  Well, with the gain involved you hear lots of background noise, but standing in the room you'd think the background was silent.  Now the first 20 seconds has the R-44 preamp gain set to -2dB - almost the minimum.  It's fed from a Sennheiser preamp with its gain knob set pretty high. The next 20 seconds is with the mics connected to the R-44 direct and with the preamp gain at its highest level.  This bit was with the R-44 powered by an external battery pack.  Then there's 20 secs with internal batteries, and the last 20 secs with external Edirol-supplied mains supply pack.

Surely with that amount of gain I'd be hearing noise behind the ambience if it was significant?  But I can't.  Looking at the file using Audition's spectral view, there's a very obvious 18kHz tone during the second 20 secs, arising from use of the third-party external battery pack - it could have arisen acoustically as the battery pack is close to the mics and it contains circuitry to supply multiple voltages from the batteries.  But other than that, it looks pretty good to me.

Link to file -

http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/22/1451533/R-44%20test.mp3
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Gutbucket on May 13, 2008, 10:42:33 PM
The section using the Senn preamp is quieter, but the sound is also less bright than second and third section using just the R-44 preamp gain.  If they were EQ'd to match there would be less difference.  Eventhough I'm not intimately familiar with the mics, either way there's less hiss at full gain than I expected.

[edited spelin']
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on May 13, 2008, 11:43:20 PM
I did my best in the short time I could devote to the test to get the levels something like the same, but indeed the Sennheiser preamp recording (the first 20 secs) is a bit lower level than the rest.  This however would tend to show up more easily any significant hiss in the R-44 preamp recording, as the gain there is effectively higher.  I've not messed with the recordings in my DAW at all to attempt to get the perceived level the same - I felt that might be seen as rigging the test! - you can do that for yourselves if you want.

The chances of anyone saying "hmmm, that's a bit hissy" when listening to an R-44 music recording in real life conditions seem to me to be close to zero, if the mics used are half decent. 
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: tfs8271 on May 14, 2008, 02:05:54 AM
tfs8271
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: sonidista on May 14, 2008, 05:32:43 AM
Has anyone tried to power the R-44 from an external battery? I did, using the 12 V out from my preamp's NP1 battery pack which I normally use to power a radio mic receiver (that would normally use one 9V battery). The power cable fits and sticks in the R-44's ext power plug (though it is slightly slimmer than the power cord connector that came with the R-44), however it won't run on this power source. (Of course I set ext battery in the menu, tried 9V, tried 12V, but nothing works). Any idea, anyone?
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on May 14, 2008, 06:21:38 AM
I'm pretty sure the R-44 needs negative polarity to the centre - is that how you connected it?  I had to make up a special cable for that reason.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: BayTaynt3d on May 14, 2008, 10:42:31 AM
Has anyone tried to power the R-44 from an external battery? I did, using the 12 V out from my preamp's NP1 battery pack which I normally use to power a radio mic receiver (that would normally use one 9V battery). The power cable fits and sticks in the R-44's ext power plug (though it is slightly slimmer than the power cord connector that came with the R-44), however it won't run on this power source. (Of course I set ext battery in the menu, tried 9V, tried 12V, but nothing works). Any idea, anyone?

Brave, brave man.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: fobstl on May 14, 2008, 12:26:20 PM
Has anyone tried to power the R-44 from an external battery? I did, using the 12 V out from my preamp's NP1 battery pack which I normally use to power a radio mic receiver (that would normally use one 9V battery). The power cable fits and sticks in the R-44's ext power plug (though it is slightly slimmer than the power cord connector that came with the R-44), however it won't run on this power source. (Of course I set ext battery in the menu, tried 9V, tried 12V, but nothing works). Any idea, anyone?
Boa is running his on the same 9 volt WalMart style dvd player battery he ran the R4 on. Seems to be working well.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: kskreider on May 14, 2008, 12:30:23 PM
Has anyone tried to power the R-44 from an external battery? I did, using the 12 V out from my preamp's NP1 battery pack which I normally use to power a radio mic receiver (that would normally use one 9V battery). The power cable fits and sticks in the R-44's ext power plug (though it is slightly slimmer than the power cord connector that came with the R-44), however it won't run on this power source. (Of course I set ext battery in the menu, tried 9V, tried 12V, but nothing works). Any idea, anyone?

Like Ozpeter said, I would bet that you have your tip polarity reversed.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: digifish_music on May 14, 2008, 07:34:40 PM

What this test does is to attempt to show R-44 preamp noise, or lack of, at full preamp gain.  Again, I used the Sennheiser MKH mics as it seems to be logical to use low noise mics for such a test.  First you hear the sound of a tiny clock about 2 inches from the mics, in a quiet suburban bedroom during the day.  Quiet, you say??  Well, with the gain involved you hear lots of background noise, but standing in the room you'd think the background was silent.  Now the first 20 seconds has the R-44 preamp gain set to -2dB - almost the minimum.  It's fed from a Sennheiser preamp with its gain knob set pretty high. The next 20 seconds is with the mics connected to the R-44 direct and with the preamp gain at its highest level.  This bit was with the R-44 powered by an external battery pack.  Then there's 20 secs with internal batteries, and the last 20 secs with external Edirol-supplied mains supply pack.

Link to file -

http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/22/1451533/R-44%20test.mp3

Great post +T :)

Here's the spectrum for those who want to see it...

(http://www.digifishmusic.com/public/images/Tapers_R44Spectrum.jpg)

Interesting to see how the mp3 decoder loses some of the highest frequencies in the first part, falls below the threshold for reproduction I suppose.

So to be clear your second part is both the inner and outer knobs at maximum? I have been meaning to do the same test with the R44 and a MixPre, this weekend I hope, I have been insanely busy  ::)

digifish
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on May 14, 2008, 08:18:45 PM
No, the inner knob (continuously variable level) was at the "noon" position.  The jury seems to be out on whether that's a digital gain control or analog - the block diagram says digital but instinct tells me analog (the diagram seems wrong about the limiter too).   The Aussie Edirol people have asked Edirol Japan about those matters on my behalf but I've not had word back so far.

I've just had a look at the spectra of the wave and mp3 versions here, and the first 20 seconds look more like the rest when you increase the level of that part by about 4dB, which subjectively matches the rest better.  It's made a bit more complicated because the background noise character changes a little between the sections (according to what was passing in the road outside for instance).  So I wouldn't want anyone to get too analytical about the test - but it does give a good general indication that preamp noise can't be rated as problematic with this device, it seems to me.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on May 14, 2008, 08:20:28 PM
Oh, and about using external supplies - the menus provide for setting the display of battery life to a variety of external powering devices, so I'd say that Edirol are positively encouraging their use - so long as you observe the correct polarity and voltage range (common sense!) then no bravery seems required.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: digifish_music on May 14, 2008, 09:32:09 PM
No, the inner knob (continuously variable level) was at the "noon" position.  The jury seems to be out on whether that's a digital gain control or analog - the block diagram says digital but instinct tells me analog (the diagram seems wrong about the limiter too).   The Aussie Edirol people have asked Edirol Japan about those matters on my behalf but I've not had word back so far.

I've just had a look at the spectra of the wave and mp3 versions here, and the first 20 seconds look more like the rest when you increase the level of that part by about 4dB, which subjectively matches the rest better.  It's made a bit more complicated because the background noise character changes a little between the sections (according to what was passing in the road outside for instance).  So I wouldn't want anyone to get too analytical about the test - but it does give a good general indication that preamp noise can't be rated as problematic with this device, it seems to me.

Points noted...so the outer-ring was full-right and the inner knob at 12 (I think that would be about 95% max gain, which is high). I think both knobs have to be operating in the analog domain, otherwise it just doesn't make much sense, and I agree with you on the limiter, I have asked Roland and still waiting for a response on the block diagram.

This weekend I will do the same test using a Rode NT1-A (has very low self noise) with a MixPre vs R44 preamps.

Plan -

using a Rode NT1-A and R-44 on internal batteries, I will...

R44: I will place the clock at a distance so that the peak meters reach -3 dB with outer-ring max, inner 12 o'clock.
MixPre: I will set the R44 to Minimum outer ring, 12 O'clock inner and then set the gain on the MixPre to deliver the same peak value (-3 dB?) the R44 preamps were delivering.

any comments on this plan?

digifish

Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on May 14, 2008, 11:36:50 PM
Sounds good - though when I did the external preamp part, with the R-44 on minimum gain I had to crank the external preamp gain up very near the top of its range to get the comparable level, at which point its gain knob was in the area when moving it just a hair made a big jump in gain - so I increased the gain at the R-44 by one step so that the external preamp's gain control was just below the point where the 'instability' of gain setting happens.  You might find you have to compromise similarly, depending on local circumstances.

Maybe have the clock back a little, peaking a bit lower (-6dB?) , so that the sound of the clock doesn't obscure any hiss?
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: fobstl on May 14, 2008, 11:45:48 PM
Here is a bt of a 4 channel sbd/aud mix I did last week with Boa's R44:

http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=515252

Worked great on Stereo x 2 at 24/44.1.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on May 15, 2008, 12:04:33 AM
Quote
Here is a bt of a 4 channel sbd/aud mix I did last week with Boa's R44:
Thanks, I'll have a listen later!

Meanwhile I've had some helpful info from Edirol in Japan.

Firstly, the continuous level knob - the inner one - operates in the digital domain.  The stepped outer one (preamp sensitivity or trim) is analogue.  In other words, the block diagram is correct in that respect.  Therefore, if R-44 recordings are going to be post-produced in a DAW later, there's not much point in using other than the stepped control, and leave the variable one at the noon position.  In a totally ideal world, a numeric indication of the position of the continuous control would have been handy, like the one that pops up when you change the preamp sensitivity, so that you could be sure you had it dead on zero, but in the real world I'm personally not going to lose sleep over that.

Secondly, the limiter is essentially digital, but engaging it drops the analogue level by 12dB, before the AD converter.  That loss of gain is made up after the digital limiter in the digital domain.  My own comment on that is that logically, you would achieve the same result by clicking the preamp sensitivity knobs downwards twice (if you were not already too near the lowest setting) and do your own makeup digitally in your DAW.  Again, it very much depends on how you are working and whether you want monitoring level maximised, and whether your level setup was set such that digital clipping might be a risk.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: BayTaynt3d on May 15, 2008, 01:43:01 AM
Quote
Here is a bt of a 4 channel sbd/aud mix I did last week with Boa's R44:
Thanks, I'll have a listen later!

Meanwhile I've had some helpful info from Edirol in Japan.

Firstly, the continuous level knob - the inner one - operates in the digital domain.  The stepped outer one (preamp sensitivity or trim) is analogue.  In other words, the block diagram is correct in that respect.  Therefore, if R-44 recordings are going to be post-produced in a DAW later, there's not much point in using other than the stepped control, and leave the variable one at the noon position.  In a totally ideal world, a numeric indication of the position of the continuous control would have been handy, like the one that pops up when you change the preamp sensitivity, so that you could be sure you had it dead on zero, but in the real world I'm personally not going to lose sleep over that.

Secondly, the limiter is essentially digital, but engaging it drops the analogue level by 12dB, before the AD converter.  That loss of gain is made up after the digital limiter in the digital domain.  My own comment on that is that logically, you would achieve the same result by clicking the preamp sensitivity knobs downwards twice (if you were not already too near the lowest setting) and do your own makeup digitally in your DAW.  Again, it very much depends on how you are working and whether you want monitoring level maximised, and whether your level setup was set such that digital clipping might be a risk.

About the inner knob, that's just stupid. Won't keep me from buying the unit, but that is lame. The inner knob is dead to me, I see no point in using it whatsover considering my typical workflow. Same goes for the limiter, it's dead to me, just like the one on my R4, lol. Don't get me wrong, I still LOOOOOOOVE my R4, and I'm sure it won't be long before I pick up an R44.

As for the comment above about the limiter, it's interesting that at least it buys you more headroom if you need it (which it sounds like you can do even when you're already at the lowest sensativity), but doing the limiting in the digital domain after that seems kind of silly. Again, I'd rather do it in post at that point where I have more control, so the only way I could ever see using it is if I need the headroom, which seems unlikely.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: digifish_music on May 15, 2008, 02:56:00 AM
Quote
Here is a bt of a 4 channel sbd/aud mix I did last week with Boa's R44:
Thanks, I'll have a listen later!

Meanwhile I've had some helpful info from Edirol in Japan.

Firstly, the continuous level knob - the inner one - operates in the digital domain.  The stepped outer one (preamp sensitivity or trim) is analogue.  In other words, the block diagram is correct in that respect.  Therefore, if R-44 recordings are going to be post-produced in a DAW later, there's not much point in using other than the stepped control, and leave the variable one at the noon position.  In a totally ideal world, a numeric indication of the position of the continuous control would have been handy, like the one that pops up when you change the preamp sensitivity, so that you could be sure you had it dead on zero, but in the real world I'm personally not going to lose sleep over that.

Secondly, the limiter is essentially digital, but engaging it drops the analogue level by 12dB, before the AD converter.  That loss of gain is made up after the digital limiter in the digital domain.  My own comment on that is that logically, you would achieve the same result by clicking the preamp sensitivity knobs downwards twice (if you were not already too near the lowest setting) and do your own makeup digitally in your DAW.  Again, it very much depends on how you are working and whether you want monitoring level maximised, and whether your level setup was set such that digital clipping might be a risk.

Thanks for that.  :o

So the R44 actually has only 11 analog level settings...odd. I suppose that this method means they can avoid the use of a variable pot for lower noise?

Well, I have my MixPre if I need infinitely variable and analog anything. On the other hand, experience with the R44 so far is that it sounds great, so...

digifish
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on May 15, 2008, 03:40:26 AM
Quote
So the R44 actually has only 9 analog level settings...odd.
On my first serious outing with it I "scored" about -1dB of headroom, using the preset sensitivity controls alone.  If I'd been sensible perhaps I would have run it the next notch down, giving a peak of -7dB.  A lot of people, particularly those using 24 bits, aim for -12dB peaking.  One way and another, unlike the good old reel-to-reel days that I remember well (when every last bit of level had to be forced onto the tape), today the systems are so quiet all the way through that having a recording peaking at -7dB rather than at -1dB isn't much of an issue.  And the repeatability of notched settings is actually pretty handy, especially once you get to know which setting corresponds to what type of music in conjunction with a given mic.  On my Sennheiser preamp I have a red line marked that I line the trim knob up to, and I know that for almost all the stuff I do, that's the level.

Compare with the H2, which has three settings only - and two of those seem to provide the same dynamic range anyway, so it's only worth using M and L.  For my purposes, M covers just about all situations (I don't record amplified music).  I love simplicity!
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: sonidista on May 15, 2008, 04:27:14 AM
Has anyone tried to power the R-44 from an external battery? I did, using the 12 V out from my preamp's NP1 battery pack which I normally use to power a radio mic receiver (that would normally use one 9V battery). The power cable fits and sticks in the R-44's ext power plug (though it is slightly slimmer than the power cord connector that came with the R-44), however it won't run on this power source. (Of course I set ext battery in the menu, tried 9V, tried 12V, but nothing works). Any idea, anyone?

Brave, brave man.

No worries man, nothing broke :)
It just didn't turn on at all... I guess polarity will be the issue, which means I will have to get another cable.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: goofy23 on May 15, 2008, 08:45:57 AM
I am interested in a comparsion between Fostex Fr2LE and R44.
Which Pre-amps are better?
Which Limiter is better?
Which one handles better, espeacially analog leveling (as mentioned above with the two knobs of the inputs, which seems not so good on the R44?
Who sounds better?
Maybe this question is woth another thread but  like to ask here if i am allowed.
I know they are not comparable directly, cause one have 4 and one have 2 channels.
But they have simmilar size.
I looking for a small device that can replace a Field Mixer, like Sound Devices, SQN, Wendt, or in my case (no one knows) Mystere, in case of sound quality /Pre´s /Limiters/ and usabilty.

Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: sonidista on May 15, 2008, 10:41:19 AM

I looking for a small device that can replace a Field Mixer, like Sound Devices, SQN, Wendt, or in my case (no one knows) Mystere, in case of sound quality /Pre´s /Limiters/ and usabilty.



If you're going to record dialogue or other stuff with unexpected levels I would recommend using the R-44 and your analog preamp at the same time. It's just easier to turn the knobs and see the levels on a MixPre or such. For ambience or music recording, where you don't need to have your fingers on the knobs all the time the R-44 is a nice standalone machine.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: digifish_music on May 16, 2008, 08:12:32 AM
Ok here's my contribution to the R44 vs Rest-of-world mic preamps  ;D

Edirol R44 internal mic preamps vs Sound Devices MixPre

Gear used

1. Sound source = Battery powered wall-clock (specially selected from a sample of 3 for it's broad-spectrum tick  ::)).
2. R44 recording @ 24 bit 44.1 kHz (internal batteries).  Recordings were post-converted to 16 bit.
3. Mic = Rode NT1-A large diaphragm condenser (worlds quietest condenser, so Rode claim)
4. External preamp = Sound Devices MixPre, running on internal batteries (benchmark quiet preamp?).
5. Location = Vocal booth.

Method

1. Rode NT1-A on mic stand, Clock on second stand.
2. Distance was adjusted (~ 10 cm, 4") so that the R44 achieved -12 dB with the max sensitivity (-56 dB).
3. Recording made while I crouched on the floor holding my breath (and believe me I had to, on my first attempt I could hear my nose whistling, I was about 1.5 meters away from and below the mic level. Serious amplification, or loud nose  :) )
4. Mix-Pre was then connected NT1-A --> MixPre --> R44 into the same channel as used previously (Ch1). R44 sensitivity was dropped to minimum (+4 dB).
5. The gain on the MixPre was then adjusted to match the same peak levels on the R44, as the R44 internal mic-pres gave at when they were at Max sensitivity (-12 dB peaks).
6. Recording made. Recording made while I crouched on the floor holding my breath.

NT1-A --> R44: R44 preamp max sensitivity @ -56 dB (Level @ 12 O'Clock). Low cut off, limiter off, phantom on. Peaks on R44 ~ -12 dB

NT1-A --> MixPre --> R44: R44 preamp Min sensitivity @ +4 dB (level @12 O'Clock), Lo cut off, limiter off, phantom off - MixPre (set to second highest level mark). Low cut off, phantom on. Peaks on R44 ~ -12 dB

...so the R44 was on a setting of 10/10 while the MixPre was operating on a setting 9/10.

Results

The following recording is 10 ticks R44 then 10 ticks MixPre

Click here to download WAV file (3 Meg) (http://www.digifishmusic.com/public/sounds/R44-Internal_vs_MixPre.wav)

(http://www.digifishmusic.com/public/images/R44-Internal_vs_MixPre.jpg)

Conclusions

Remembering that the test above is for the highest gain setting on the R44, it is clear that from a noise perspective the Edirol R44 mic preamps are no match for the Sound Devices MixPre, and nor would we expect them to be. The MixPre alone is about the same cost as the R44.

The question then is whether the stock R44 mic-pres are good enough for music and field recording?

For music recording, I have no doubt that the R44 pres are capable of delivering noise-free high-quality results (as demonstrated elsewhere in this thread). Certainly if you are recording any 'normal' musical instrument the stock R44 will deliver a professional result. To hear the difference between the MixPre and R44 you would need to be in a studio, and then the playback gain would need to be artificially boosted. If you are recording bands, then the sound is an order of magnitude louder so inherent MixPre vs R44 noise level comparisons are simply irrelevant. It will come down to whether you think the R44 pres have a 'sound' that you like rather than noise.

For field-recording, based on my own limited experiences with the R44 so far, the R44 will provide similarly excellent recordings in the majority of circumstances. I have been using settings of -44 dB max (2 steps or 12 dB down from the level heard above) and don't hear any noticeable hiss above the background noise. The hiss does become noticeable (compared to the MixPre) if I start normalizing gain on recordings and boosting playback-levels while listening with headphones or run the R44 at -50~56 dB in a quiet location. So, for extreme quietude locations recording distant sources, the R44 pres are marginal in comparison to the MixPre. Noise obsessed 'quietude' field-recordists will find that the R44 is not a 1-box solution. Sound Devices is still king of that hill IMO. Perhaps the modders will change that.

Here's a thought, if you don't mind a little clutter and need a world-class 4 channel field-recording solution (on a 'budget'), an R44 + 2 x MixPres will cost about $2000 USD. For that you get 4 channels of pristine mic-pres + 4 channel superb digital recording at 24 bit, 88.2 kHz.

PS: Don't forget to take the S/N or your mics into account too, the NT1-A used here is a very, very quiet mic (~ 5 dB-A self noise). Once you add in some significant hiss from your microphones then the differences may not be as noticeable as demonstrated above.

digifish
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on May 16, 2008, 08:38:23 AM
"...well, something sucks, because I can't find /sounds/R44-Internal_vs_MixPre.wav. "

C'mon, share the secret!  :)
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: digifish_music on May 16, 2008, 08:56:46 AM
"...well, something sucks, because I can't find /sounds/R44-Internal_vs_MixPre.wav. "

C'mon, share the secret!  :)

Try it now :)
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on May 16, 2008, 09:26:27 AM
Downloading now...  :)

Hmmm - I'm puzzled as you've clearly got noise at that preamp setting and I didn't.  I shall investigate further!
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: goofy23 on May 16, 2008, 12:45:50 PM
sonidlsta
thanks, i looked at the R44 and Fr2le in store yesterday, the knobs are really small, you are right, maybe a bit too small.
I liked the idea of a small backbone healthy device, but maybe these units are too flimsy.
i like those Sound Devices and their light weight, but their knobs are also not very good on the small units, maybe as bad as the flimsy knobs on R44/Fr2le.
But i the SD´s have at least good pre gain knobs and analog gain knobs, which the R44 miss (no analog unity gain knob ,only digital gain afterward), the Fr2le seems to only have those analog gain knobs and no pre gain adjustable (maybe in menu), i think, don´t know.
 
digifish
your record proved how good the pre´s of the Sound devices are ! impressive.
The Edirol R44 is much worse.
Thanks  your recording helped much, now i know the R44 isn´t usable for me, as i seldom record music, in first  i record ambient and speech.

But again i am very astonished of the pre´s performance, and i wonder cause iused the SD302 often before, but not with a large diapragma mic.
"Only" with Sennhesier MKH`s, Neumann`s, Rode NTG-1 small diapragh, but never expirienced the noiseless performance in these extreme form.
I wonder how the SD`s pres perform technically compared to SQN,Mystere (portable mixer from switzerland), Wendt.
I think it the SQN and Mystere´s are fatter in sound (which i like) and have more gain but i dont know if they as noise free.

But this thread is over the Edirol, so this is too far away, i just have to mention my thought´s (dont know why, i am a pre-amp freak)
But what maybe interests all readers of this thread is how it compares to FR2lE?
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: hypnotoad on May 16, 2008, 01:14:22 PM
Thanks for the continual testing/poking/prodding of this unit digifish.  This thread is very interesting.  +t
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: NOLAfishwater on May 16, 2008, 01:29:25 PM
since I will be running the V3 in front of the R-44, I am not all too concerned with the Pres. Mainly going to be doing matrixes. But if I actually run 4 mics, I will probably get channel 3&4 modded by Busman once the warranty has expired.

Digifish. Thanks for the research. It is good to know.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: digifish_music on May 16, 2008, 06:06:23 PM
sonidlsta
 
digifish
your record proved how good the pre´s of the Sound devices are ! impressive.
The Edirol R44 is much worse.
Thanks  your recording helped much, now i know the R44 isn´t usable for me, as i seldom record music, in first  i record ambient and speech.

The MixPre is a benchmark for quiet operation (as is the NT1-A). But remember also the MixPre alone it costs almost the same as the R44 :)

While there is an obvious difference, the R44 was being run flat out (does anyone ever run their gear this way?), once you start recording the sort of sources people here record, it would not be an issue. Just listen to OZPeters classical recording.

I purchased the R44 with the intention of using it for field recording, and from my experiments so far it sounds great. I'll post some up on freesound and post the link here. I have been using -32 dB and -44 dB (2-4 steps down from that tested) and the noise just drops away dramatically. However, for very quiet sources the R44 pres are marginal. But you can't expect Sound Devices performance for Edirol money :)

I also wish Edirol made MixPres...they would be $300 :o

digifish
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: digifish_music on May 16, 2008, 06:22:48 PM
Downloading now...  :)

Hmmm - I'm puzzled as you've clearly got noise at that preamp setting and I didn't.  I shall investigate further!

I just listened to yours, it sounds about the same. The spectrum looks the same too. Why did you think mine was different?

digifish
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on May 16, 2008, 06:54:09 PM
The dynamic range for the MixPre is given as about 10dB better than the R-44 - but from my supplier even discounted it costs about 20% more.  And it's got half the number of channels.  And it doesn't record.  I think the most interesting test would be putting the R-44 up against the FR2-LE, which does seem to have a reputation for good preamps at the price (though again, only half the number).

Here today it's raining, which causes enough background noise to make it impossible to test further - that noise is radically louder than any R-44 preamp noise.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on May 16, 2008, 06:57:18 PM


I just listened to yours, it sounds about the same. The spectrum looks the same too. Why did you think mine was different?

digifish

I could instantly hear the preamp noise in yours but not in mine - I think yours has the advantage of being recorded in a quieter environment - also mine was in stereo which perhaps confuses the issue.  Once the rain stops I'll try mono.

Edit - and your external very nice preamp is quieter than my 15 year old one!  :)
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: goofy23 on May 16, 2008, 08:02:05 PM
Sound Devices are great but i dont like the handling of the small units, and also the limters can be better.
But for the price they are great, here in germany they are the price breakers for TV Sound recording, you can not get beter for less money, (if you import them from USA).
Remember a SQN 2s cost 2500€, a Mystere over 3000€ SD, is ridiciously cheap more and more are using them for ENG than SQN.

And you are right about noise levels, i told i used him several times and i never cared about it, i cared about my sound, not the noise which was no problem cause my usable signal was ways above the noise.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on May 16, 2008, 09:20:38 PM
Quote
my usable signal was ways above the noise.
Indeed, that's the thing - the tests we've been running have little relevance to real recording situations unless you're doing nature recording of very quiet sounds in a very quiet environment.

If you are wanting to record and reproduce music, so that when you sit in front of the loudspeakers the perceived level of the playback is the same as the original sound (in other words, you're not amplifying the music, and the system noise, to a higher level than is natural) then almost any modern recording device will exhibit no audible system noise - especially given that few households are quiet enough for the purpose.  You have to increase the level of the system noise to a point where the music is unrealistically (and painfully) loud to begin to hear the difference between the various devices - and we get to the point where owner pride and satisfaction is really what we're talking about!
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: digifish_music on May 16, 2008, 09:39:15 PM
Quote
my usable signal was ways above the noise.
Indeed, that's the thing - the tests we've been running have little relevance to real recording situations unless you're doing nature recording of very quiet sounds in a very quiet environment.

Indeed. Your classical recording shows that (and I assume that would be the most demanding situation most tapers would encounter).

I also agree with your point also about mono vs stereo hiss, stereo is perceived to be less intrusive as it is interpreted more as background noise where mono is heard as a localized source.

...from what I have experienced so far the R44 makes excellent field recordings, but the pres are possibly marginal for extreme 'quietude' settings where distant bird/frog/ambiances are being recorded. Even my NT4 + MixPre can be too hissy, the urge to use the mic preamp as a 'magnifying glass' is irresistible, give the man gain and he will use it :)

So here is an R44 field recording (NT4 mic naked, hence the low frequency wind noises as I move), -36 dB setting (6/10) I stand at my front door and record my front yard, back inside the house and close the door. Walk through the house (passing the kitchen and dishwasher) into a quiet room and then into an even quieter one so you can better hear the mic-pres. (http://www.digifishmusic.com/public/sounds/R44FieldRecordingTest.mp3) (3 meg 320 kbps mp3, spectrum below)

(http://www.digifishmusic.com/public/images/R44FieldRecordingTest.jpg)

On the other hand, one reason I like the MixPre + R09 combo on the road is that you have a lot of flexibility to record 'pro' or stealth/binaural depending on the circumstances. The R09 however seems to emit a lot more EMI than the R44, I had the R09 resting on-top of the MixPre the other day recording some ambiance and some digital interference is audible in parts of the recording, the R44 does not do the same when placed against the MixPre. If someone is looking for a killer (2 channel) field recording rig, I think it would have to be a MixPre + R09HR.  Cost~$1000 (USD), what beats that?

Something I noticed BTW, the self noise of the R44 seems to increase step-by-step until you hit -36 dB when it drops, then keeps increasing after that setting, do you notice that? I checked this and all channels on mine do the same (headphones need to be up fairly high).

While mentioning the R44 headphone amp, again I am astonished how good (noise free) it is.

digifish
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: BayTaynt3d on May 17, 2008, 02:14:25 AM
When it comes to ENG type stuff, I don't think the R44 nor the Fostex are really replacements for a decent mixer, and as a FP24 owner (same as mixpre), I can vouch for that being one nice preamp. Quiet, clean, lots o gain, limiters, xlr in/out, a mini return for monitoring (try that with one of the all-in-ones), tape out (mini out), runs on AAs or external battery, responsive meters, and all in a nice small BOMBPROOF package. That thing is field production ready that's for sure. That said, there's nothing quite like running an all-in-one unit for certain things, just so much easier, smaller, and with the R-series, you've got 4 chans, so nice...
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on May 17, 2008, 07:10:35 AM
Here's another mp3 sample from me - a studio recording made during a pianist's warm-up.  There's a short bit of the middle sized grand piano (Sennheiser MS pair located just clear of the lid), then I've edited in the silence after he had left the studio for a moment, for comparison.  Preamp level was -32dB, everything else apart from the MS effect was off.  I've not normalised the recording.

I'd taken along the R-44 for this session (actually a live radio broadcast) just for fun and hooked it into the quickly placed mics in the hope of getting some interesting samples.  Other mics were used for the broadcast itself (it looked kind of busy round that piano!).  As it happened I forgot to turn off and retrieve the R-44 after the warm-up and it ran on through the broadcast.  Which was fortunate, as the studio DAW locked up, leaving the only recording for the artist's archive the R-44 version!

http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/22/1451533/Sample%20for%20net.mp3
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: mfoley on May 18, 2008, 06:21:42 AM
What a recorder!
First off...I'm a wedding videogapher.   When Frank (from Edirol) told me this baby was designed for the event videographer, he was surely right.  My gig last night was pretty typical.  When I arrived at the reception, I had about 15 minutes to setup all of my cameras and setup the R44 for recording. 

I quit long ago getting a direct feed from the DJ.  One, the sound is too sterile for my taste as there is no "room feel" that is so important when capturing this type of event.  Two, many wedding DJs are pretty ignorant of their equipment...at best they know how to set it up and turn it on.  Many are worried if you tap into their board you'll screw things ups :-)   

My capture process is fairly simple.  I use two Rode M3s to mic the PA Stack. One is used to capture thebass/subwoofer section of the PA and the other M3 to capture the mid/highs.  The other two channels of the R44 are feed with a AT 825 stereo mic placed to not only capture the overall PA, but to get good crowd noise.   This composite capture really rocks. 

The R44 makes this whole process very easy.  I need a device that I can set and forgot as I have other camera duties throughout the night...

Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Kevin T on May 19, 2008, 10:51:00 AM
Interesting use of 4 channels. I'm curious Why the separate sub and Main mics? Wouldnt a 2 channel unit capture the room audio as well?
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on May 19, 2008, 07:09:32 PM
Interesting use of 4 channels. I'm curious Why the separate sub and Main mics? Wouldnt a 2 channel unit capture the room audio as well?
Not on four separate channels for subsequent remixing it wouldn't.  If you've got 15 mins total setup time for audio and video, there's no chance to sit there with your headphones cranked to the max in the noisy environment getting the sound just right - perhaps - into a stereo recorder.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Kevin T on May 20, 2008, 08:43:54 AM
Interesting use of 4 channels. I'm curious Why the separate sub and Main mics? Wouldnt a 2 channel unit capture the room audio as well?
Not on four separate channels for subsequent remixing it wouldn't.  If you've got 15 mins total setup time for audio and video, there's no chance to sit there with your headphones cranked to the max in the noisy environment getting the sound just right - perhaps - into a stereo recorder.

OK set up time is short but arent you losing the Lft & right separate stereo info via micing both mains. I guess I find the sub micing redundant/odd because I'd think thats what I use eq in post for?   
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: mfoley on May 20, 2008, 09:15:41 AM
Kevin,
about 99% of the reception DJs now run mono...so I use  a M3 mic to capture mids/highs from the stack and another M3 to get capture the base cabinet of the stack.  The other two channels are feed with an AT 825 steroe mic place (typically) mid point between the stack facing out toward the crowd to capture a stereo-like feel of the PA and crowd/room.  This arrangement may sound weird to pure tapers...but this has garnered some great audio for me...getting a direct feed is just too sterile in this video process....
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: BayTaynt3d on May 20, 2008, 10:15:51 AM
getting a direct feed is just too sterile in this video process....

That right there is something experienced tapers have known for quite a long while. The new tapers think soundboards are the holy grail, but most of us know better...
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Kevin T on May 20, 2008, 01:08:25 PM
Kevin,
about 99% of the reception DJs now run mono...so I use  a M3 mic to capture mids/highs from the stack and another M3 to get capture the base cabinet of the stack.  The other two channels are feed with an AT 825 steroe mic place (typically) mid point between the stack facing out toward the crowd to capture a stereo-like feel of the PA and crowd/room.  This arrangement may sound weird to pure tapers...but this has garnered some great audio for me...getting a direct feed is just too sterile in this video process....

Thanks For that. I'm performing (a duo) at my sons wedding in 2 weeks. After playing  I plan on trying to use my Zoom H2 along with my digital camera to do some family comment / recording . The final result to be a .PPT slideshow + 2 ch audio file.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Will_S on May 20, 2008, 02:29:23 PM
Any samples out there of a PA recording with no external preamp?  All I've been able to find are the classical recordings (very nice and helpful WRT noise performance, but how do the pre's handle high SPLs?), matrices, or recordings with a V3 in front.

Also, based on the pictures the display looks very similar to the R09's, which is pretty much impossible to read in full sunlight.  Is the same true of the R-44?
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Rick on May 20, 2008, 02:42:55 PM
Any samples out there of a PA recording with no external preamp?  All I've been able to find are the classical recordings (very nice and helpful WRT noise performance, but how do the pre's handle high SPLs?), matrices, or recordings with a V3 in front.

I'll try to post something tonight :)
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Gutbucket on May 20, 2008, 03:44:25 PM
Kevin,
about 99% of the reception DJs now run mono...so I use  a M3 mic to capture mids/highs from the stack and another M3 to get capture the base cabinet of the stack.  The other two channels are feed with an AT 825 steroe mic place (typically) mid point between the stack facing out toward the crowd to capture a stereo-like feel of the PA and crowd/room.  This arrangement may sound weird to pure tapers...but this has garnered some great audio for me...getting a direct feed is just too sterile in this video process....

If slighty unorthadox, this sounds like a well reasoned, effective techinque and a good way to get control over both the frequency balance of the direct sound and the ratio of direct/reverberant sound in post, which are two major parts of dialing in our type, or any ambient, stereo recording.

As you may or may not be aware, it's rather common for multi-track recordings of PA amplified music to use two cardioid mic's pointed out at the crowd (null towards the PA) to pick up the ambient crowd sound, to be later mixed in to taste, similar to what you are doing.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: ascouserinnewyork on May 22, 2008, 03:58:13 AM
Anyone discovered a suitable bag for this thing? Portabrace have nothing... yet. And the pleather case is just horrendous.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: NOLAfishwater on May 22, 2008, 09:28:03 AM
mine should be getting here tomorrow. Also ordered a PNY 16gb card. hopefully it should run without any problems.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on May 22, 2008, 10:53:47 AM
Mine's living in a variety of containers so far -

- An HHB Portadat case, which is a bit big for it but it does have room for a backup Zoom H2!

- A padded lunchbag case

- A polythene minature crate originally intended for fishing accessories, but which holds the R-44 and its power supply and other essential bits very nicely.  Then that, and some other such mini crates for mics and a Behringer monitoring mixer (see my previous posts on monitoring...) and suchlike goes into a canvas holdall.  Have complete multitrack recording kit, will travel.

Today I used the R-44 with a couple of Naiant tieclip mics for an interview with a prominent Czech musician passing through here, and tomorrow it'll be doing the official recording of her jazz/folk concert for later FM radio broadcast.  I'm getting my money's-worth!
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Rick on May 22, 2008, 11:10:07 AM
Anyone discovered a suitable bag for this thing? Portabrace have nothing... yet. And the pleather case is just horrendous.

I'm using a SoniCase.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: NOLAfishwater on May 22, 2008, 03:04:08 PM
I use a Lowepro Nova 4


R-44 dimensions
Dimensions: 6-3/16(W) x 7-1/4(D) x 2-7/16(H) inches

Lowepro Nova 4
Size(Interior):
11.4W X 5.9D X 7.7H in.

From measurements, I will be able to put the V3, R-44 and 3 DVD batteries in the main compartment. Will strap the Pelican Cases to the outside of it for now. I might end up going with a larger bag to accomodate for everything. If I wasn't running the V3, I could fit the Pelican Case inside the bag as well. Now it is imperative to lighten up my cables. What I plan on doing is have a TSer build me a set of stubby 15' XLR RA's for my mics (ch 1 & 2) and a set of 18" interconnects (ch 3 & 4) to allow for quick setup with other patch cables. 


Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: digifish_music on May 22, 2008, 08:51:43 PM
I use a Lowepro Nova 4
...

I have found that on visiting your average 'camera' store or section in a larger retailer they usually have a wide range of bags, and it usually does not take long to find something that works for not much money (~$50).

digifish
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: flintstone on May 23, 2008, 12:18:27 AM
B&H Photo Video says they have the R-44 in stock now, $895 including shipping

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/sitem/sku=542280&is=REG&bi=E15

Sweetwater says they have it in stock, too, same price.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on May 23, 2008, 11:36:14 AM
I love this little recorder to death.  It was ideal for the off-the-soundboard gig tonight - took a feed from the inserts of the three channels in use, running into 3 x mono, and deployed an H2 for room sound.  Just before it started I decided to drop the preamps levels by one click on each (-6dB) and that proved to the a good move - as often happens, the performance was somewhat louder than the soundcheck.  That's where the clickable settings are so handy - you know exactly what you've done and you know you've done the same thing to each channel.  And the illuminated controls were very handy in the dark corner I was located in.  No problem finding space for the little machine. No need to look for power - external battery back lasted all evening.

Now all I have to do is to spend a few days remixing and editing the result!  Can't post samples pending artist approval, I'm afraid.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Will_S on May 23, 2008, 12:11:43 PM
B&H Photo Video says they have the R-44 in stock now, $895 including shipping

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/sitem/sku=542280&is=REG&bi=E15

Sweetwater says they have it in stock, too, same price.

Anyone know of better prices anywhere?  There's a member here who I believe is an Edirol dealer, and I'd heard second-hand he was offering a substantially better price, but he hasn't responded to my inquiries.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: penguin on May 23, 2008, 12:45:04 PM
Has anyone tried using lithium batteries in the R-44?? The manual says alkaline LR6 or nickel hydride HR15/51 batteries. The lithiums cost twice as much as normal batteries, but they sometimes last 4-5 times as long.

I wish the scrub wheel wasn't so clicky feeling. I prefer the smoother feel like the value wheel on Roland keyboards. A minor thing, I know. Also, I had some of the internal effects set up for certain channels and when I turned it off and turned it on again the settings defaulted. Is there a way to save effects settings??

I really like the internal speakers to listen to what you've just recorded. It's great so a group of people can hear things immediately instead of having one person at a time using headphones. It's not like having a complete monitor system, but I am surprised and pleased how good it sounds considering the size. I like the combo jacks too, and not being forced to buy expensive accessory TA3 cables like on the SD (but believe you me, if I had the $$$ I'd get the SD 788T in the drop of a hat).

I am seriously thinking about getting another to slave together. A month ago I preordered a SD 788T, but canceled that for the R-44 after much contemplation. With the money I 'saved' I can get another R-44 and some RAM for my Mac, maybe a Duet and Logic Studio and I definitely need to update my microphones.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: ascouserinnewyork on May 23, 2008, 04:05:03 PM
I just received my R-44 from Sweetwater, and they honoured the original price of $795  ;D

This unit, in comparison to others (personally I own the Zoom H4), feels quite solid.. not to say I will be dropping it from any height in the future.. but they seem to have put some thought into the size and robustness of it.

Still playing with all the little knobs, wheels, buttons and hoo-haas in the menus (really got to learn to read a manual one day) and - like so many of these recorders - the headphone monitor pre-amp seems low. I use the H4 with an FP33 and get tremendous volume out of the mixer which works great when doing interviews in loud environments (being able to drown out background and hear the interviewee is priceless). Unsure with the R-44 as I decided not to run out the door and work with it yesterday during my jaunt around NYC (just not enough time to play with it prior to) and stuck with the H4 instead.

Many thanks to those recommendations for run-bags. I am presently using the FP33 Portabrace run with the H4 in the Radio Mic. pocket (which does not allow great access to the H4) which is fine. But ditching the FP33 (which may not happen as a few folks have commented on the low mic input s/n) is something I would love to do and just carry the R-44 and the H4 as a backup (which can really stay in the car).

My first task is to figure out this unit - seems almost as easy as plug 'n play - second task is make a cable to connect the output to my mobile phone microphone input (with a headphone output from the phone too) to do live phoners with my station with the ability to playback soundbites too. I know there is equipment that is made specifically for this purpose - but considering I am doing all this radio bit for free - but I would rather see if I can use this unit to do the above.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Will_S on May 23, 2008, 04:22:49 PM
I just received my R-44 from Sweetwater, and they honoured the original price of $795  ;D

When did you place your order?  Do you know if they'll still match that price?
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: BayTaynt3d on May 23, 2008, 04:40:10 PM
I just received my R-44 from Sweetwater, and they honoured the original price of $795  ;D

When did you place your order?  Do you know if they'll still match that price?

No they won't. The list price went up.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: BayTaynt3d on May 23, 2008, 04:43:23 PM
like so many of these recorders - the headphone monitor pre-amp seems low.

One trick I use for the situation you describe, is to use in-ear monitors (headphones). You can find them for somewhat reasonable prices and the ones I have (shure) block something like 20-30 db of ambient sound if fitted well. Plus the rig is super-small, no more headphones needed, lol, not really... But just saying, if you haven't tried that, it's worth a look regardless of what unit you are recording with.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: stirinthesauce on May 23, 2008, 04:55:05 PM
got mine today.  man is this thing small  :o  maybe 1/3rd to 1/5th bigger than an mp-2.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: digifish_music on May 23, 2008, 08:01:50 PM
OT: Just thinking...as the R44 seems to be a somewhat repackaged R4 with tweaks, I'd love to see the same thing done with the R09-HR...

A new unit that shares components with both the R44 (screen, knobs, jacks, buttons etc) & R09-HR, about 2/3 the size of the R44, 2 channels, and the extra $$$ saved put into the mic preamps...essentially they could put the R09-HR innards into a larger case with combo-jacks and the best mic-pres Edirol can make for the reduction in cost.  If it were $500~$600 and the mic pres were exceptional I think they would be on a winner.

digifish
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: stirinthesauce on May 23, 2008, 08:11:27 PM
I'll be testing mine this weekend.  First outing will be a festi so it will get a workout.  Will be running 4 channels the whole time.  I'm guessing the safe bet is to run 2 x stereo, no 4 channel mono.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: NOLAfishwater on May 23, 2008, 08:28:44 PM
so I purchased an Adata, SanDisk, and PNY cards to try out. All three are type 4 cards. So theoretically they should all work. Once I get my R-44 in, I will test them out. Will report back.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on May 23, 2008, 08:30:51 PM
Quote
the headphone monitor pre-amp seems low
Perhaps it suits certain headphone impedances/sensitivities best.  Here it seems perfectly adequate for someone wishing to preserve their hearing!  I was sitting about 6 inches from the PA speakers at last nights event but the headphone sound was entirely distinguishable from the ambient sound.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: ascouserinnewyork on May 23, 2008, 10:19:25 PM
Quote
When did you place your order?

I ordered mine back in February when Sweetwater announced they would be getting it 'soon'. There list was $795 back then.... then the price went up - I dropped the 'price increase' post in the original Edirol R-44 thread - when I spoke with SW they said that they would honour the price I ordered at.

Quote
Do you know if they'll still match that price?

Not at all.  :'(
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Rick on May 24, 2008, 09:50:53 AM
Ok I finally posted a sample of the stock pre-amps for a "rock band". Sorry the band sucks  :-X

http://rick.texastapers.org/sample.flac

Source:  Beyerdynamic MC930 > Edirol R-44 (24/44)
            DIN about 8' feet up, DFC hanging from the ceiling about 15' from the stage.
Lineage: Edirol R-44 > USB > Sound Forge 9.0 (24bit > 16bit) > CDWave > xACT

This was recorded at Momo's in Austin and is a smallish bar.

Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: digifish_music on May 25, 2008, 03:12:02 AM
Ok I finally posted a sample of the stock pre-amps for a "rock band". Sorry the band sucks  :-X

http://rick.texastapers.org/sample.flac

Source:  Beyerdynamic MC930 > Edirol R-44 (24/44)
            DIN about 8' feet up, DFC hanging from the ceiling about 15' from the stage.
Lineage: Edirol R-44 > USB > Sound Forge 9.0 (24bit > 16bit) > CDWave > xACT

This was recorded at Momo's in Austin and is a smallish bar.


Thanks for sharing, can you post up some of the 'quiet' between songs?

PS: the band wasn't that bad :)

digifish
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: digifish_music on May 27, 2008, 12:38:08 AM
Just for kicks here is a 192 kHz @ 24 bit recording from my R44 using a pair of Audio Technica AT3032 mics.

Target = Spanner dropped onto a concrete floor 

www.digifishmusic.com/public/sounds/196kHzSpanner.wav (ignore the 196, was 192 as pointed out by TSM   ;) )

The highest harmonic I can see in my spectrum analyzer is ~45 kHz. This wont play in most players, you will need some audio editing software most likely.

(http://www.digifishmusic.com/public/images/Freesound_196kHz.png)

...but it sounds much more interesting slowed 16X :)

http://freesound.iua.upf.edu/samplesViewSingle.php?id=54265

digifish
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: RobC on May 27, 2008, 12:47:48 PM
I just ordered one
Hopefully it will be here tommorrow,  I will do a little at home testing,  than use it this weekend for some work this weekend
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: TSM on May 27, 2008, 02:49:17 PM
Just for kicks here is a 196 kHz @ 24 bit


You must have the R-44 mark 2 model because mine only goes upto 192KHZ...... ;)

Love the 16x speed sample !

 8)
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: digifish_music on May 27, 2008, 06:48:08 PM
Just for kicks here is a 196 kHz @ 24 bit


You must have the R-44 mark 2 model because mine only goes upto 192KHZ...... ;)

Love the 16x speed sample !

 8)

Woops :) Fixed.

16X slow, yes this is about the only reason I can think of using sample rates over 48 kHz is to transpose these harmonics down into the audible range. It does give the slowed sample a richer set of harmonics to work with.

digifish
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: sonidista on May 28, 2008, 03:25:37 AM
OK, here are some impressions after working with the R-44 for over 10 days in a film shoot, int and ext.

+ menu is easy and quick to use, kept simple, all you need. File and take numbering is relatively fast to use and really useful for film shoots.
+ display is nice, though hard to read in plain sunlight. I like the menu and display much more than those of Sound Devices recorders and such.
+ using SD cards was the greatest idea! The use is so fast and uncomplicated and silent! Unit can record wthin less than 5 seconds after powering up.
+ Headphone output (using a Sennheiser HD 25 which is closed and the loudest headphones I know) seems really good and loud enough.

- BIGGEST bummer was battery life. 4 hours my a**. I almost always used a preamp so I recorded one channel @ 48/24 without phantom and on first preamp level (-2 dB). Recording time with decent batteries never even got close to 4 hours, so I mainly powered it using the adaptor. I imagine that record 4 channels with phantom will last you less than an hour for a set of batteries. So start thinking about alternative powering options (I will power it from my portable mixer that has a big NP1 battery attached). The manual's note saying the used AA batteries because they can be bought everywhere seems like a bit of a joke in that way, because if I really wanna go record somewhere in the jungle for two weeks I will have to pack a whole bag of AAs, which is not so practical.
- preamps sounded a bit noisy when cranked up to -44 dB. Might be the mics, too (Oktava MK012). Still tolerable though.
- Not really a minus to me, but if you're going to use them, the internal mics are damn noisy! Unusable to my ears! More of a gimmick there, as well as the internal speakers that are pretty low level.

IMPROVEMENT SUGGESTIONS
: Routing shortcuts would be nice (see Sound Devices Recorders), e.g. press stop and play at the same time to toggle number recording tracks.
: Also one thing that could be fixed: Why can't I record 1x Stereo and 1 mono or 1x Stereo and 2xmono?
: As said by others before, more monitoring options would be nice.

I have yet to use my R-44 for music recording, but so far, even with the little flaws mentioned above, I must say I love it! For the price it's definitely unbeatable!

Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: sonidista on May 28, 2008, 03:33:03 AM
can someone post a link to the ominous "DVD batteries"?
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: digifish_music on May 28, 2008, 03:50:37 AM

- preamps sounded a bit noisy when cranked up to -44 dB. Might be the mics, too (Oktava MK012). Still tolerable though.
- Not really a minus to me, but if you're going to use them, the internal mics are damn noisy! Unusable to my ears! More of a gimmick there, as well as the internal speakers that are pretty low level.

Nice summary, thanks...

-44 dB is the maximum level I can run without noticeable hiss, above that it is definitely audible in comparison to a MixPre.

Agreed about the internal mics, they seem as bad as the R09. I hoped they would be better.

EDIT: What were you recording BTW spoken voice?

digifish
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on May 28, 2008, 06:31:29 AM
Quote
I imagine that record 4 channels with phantom will last you less than an hour for a set of batteries.

I'm sure I got more than two hours in that situation - maybe the post was in the previous R-44 thread, on the last page or so.  Rather depends on the batteries and the mics.  Here I use 2650mAh rechargeable Duracells.  And a compact "Tevion" external lithium polymer battery pack*, which seamlessly hands over to the internal batteries when it shuts itself off near discharge.  So far on concert recording that combo has easily met my needs.

Quote
Why can't I record 1x Stereo and 1 mono or 1x Stereo and 2xmono?
  Indeed.  Because of the monitoring constraints it would be handy also to be able to record on channel 4 without recording on channel 3 (when doing stereo plus one mono, recorded as 3xmono).

Quote
the internal mics are damn noisy!
Heh, I discovered that for myself yesterday when using the internal mics for a test of sync vs a Zoom H2.   The H2 built in mic recording was significantly quieter than the R-44 built in mic recording.   They'd be better than nothing in some situations though - eg the other day I had to record an interview where the interviewer had spent weeks researching the subject, and there was only one chance - in a cafe - to get the recording, and time was very tight.  My "plan B" was to use the R-44 and the H2 at the same time, plonked on the table using their own mics, and that way I would be covered if one or other recording got corrupted or whatever.  In the end I was able to plug a couple of Naiant lavaliers into the R-44 so didn't have to use its built-ins (but still ran the H2 as well).

As discussed above, I don't have any issue with preamp noise on the R-44 - as far as I'm concerned, working with classical music, the chances of having to use high enough gain to show the noise in practical situations are zero.  You'd have to be doing nature recording in the middle of nowhere for it to become a real issue IMHO.

*Tevion model ABS-102 Portable battery pack, 8800mAh, 7 voltages, sold by Aldi stores recently in Australia, now I think out of stock.  If you see them resurface, check them out!  http://www.unisupport.net/lang/au/portable_battery_pack.html has details.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: mfoley on May 28, 2008, 08:03:37 AM

- BIGGEST bummer was battery life. 4 hours my a**. I almost always used a preamp so I recorded one channel @ 48/24 without phantom and on first preamp level (-2 dB). Recording time with decent batteries never even got close to 4 hours, so I mainly powered it using the adaptor. I imagine that record 4 channels with phantom will last you less than an hour for a set of batteries. So start thinking about alternative powering options (I will power it from my portable mixer that has a big NP1 battery attached). The manual's note saying the used AA batteries because they can be bought everywhere seems like a bit of a joke in that way, because if I really wanna go record somewhere in the jungle for two weeks I will have to pack a whole bag of AAs, which is not so practical.
- preamps sounded a bit noisy when cranked up to -44 dB. Might be the mics, too (Oktava MK012). Still tolerable though.
- Not really a minus to me, but if you're going to use them, the internal mics are damn noisy! Unusable to my ears! More of a gimmick there, as well as the internal speakers that are pretty low level.




Try Eveready e-lithium...you can get close to six hours of record time with 4 channels of phantom activated...
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: vegas06 on May 28, 2008, 09:21:48 AM
can someone post a link to the ominous "DVD batteries"?
You also may want to take a look at the Tekkeon myPower Batteries.  Although on the expensive side, they should last you a long time.

http://tekkeon.com/site/products-mypowerall.php

I used to use these with my R-4 and it would run for over 12 hours.  So I figure the R-44 should run even longer being SD driven and not hard drive driven, as it requires less power draw than the R-4 did.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Rick on May 28, 2008, 10:01:47 AM
can someone post a link to the ominous "DVD batteries"?

5400mAh - $39.99
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/375503-REG/Initial_RB270_RB_270_Universal_Rechargeable_Battery.html

8000mah - $49.99
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/480307-REG/Impact_BPD8000_BPD_8000_Universal_Portable_Li_Ion.html

Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: NOLAfishwater on May 28, 2008, 10:11:51 AM
Ok. so I got my R-44 yesterday and was quite surprised at how small it really is. It actually fit perfect in my Lowepro Nova 4 along with: 2 DVD batteris and my V3.

Someone recently turned me on to a higher capacity 8000 mAh 9V Li-Ion battery from BH Photo for only $49. Mine has not arrived yet so I have not built a power cable for it yet:http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/480307-REG/Impact_BPD8000_BPD_8000_Universal_Portable_Li_Ion.html



I put the tested the 16GB PNY card and it read 7:40 of record time remaining set at 24/48 on Stereo x 2. **The test was only for 30 minutes** I will try to run the whole card down tomorrow night.

I built a power cable for my two older 5400 mAh DVD battery > R-44 out of parts from Ratshack. One generic 6' Adaptaplug power cord with adapter tip B for the DVD battery side and and adapter tip M for the R-44 side. Remember that the R-44 power connection is reverse polarity so you have to put the M adapter tip on backwards. total cost $22.42

Display closeup
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r38/NOLAfishwater/IMG_1282.jpg)

Bag shot
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r38/NOLAfishwater/IMG_1285.jpg)

4 Channel AKG
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r38/NOLAfishwater/IMG_1280.jpg)
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Kindguy on May 28, 2008, 10:34:57 AM
Nice T+
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Gutbucket on May 28, 2008, 10:43:19 AM
Man, that thing is even smaller than I realized.  Good bag shot pic for proportions.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: RobC on May 28, 2008, 12:08:40 PM
I am waiting for the UPS man to bring me mine today, 
hope he gets here soon
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: vegas06 on May 28, 2008, 01:31:21 PM
Mine just arrived this morning (and yes it is small, but the build quality feels more substantial then my R-4 did.).
I ordered it from B&H yesterday (regular ground).

Man I love that store and only being a few states away.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: boa on May 28, 2008, 05:57:27 PM
Someone recently turned me on to a higher capacity 8000 mAh 9V Li-Ion battery from BH Photo for only $49. Mine has not arrived yet so I have not built a power cable for it yet:http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/480307-REG/Impact_BPD8000_BPD_8000_Universal_Portable_Li_Ion.html

+T for the 9V Li-Ion find; Thanks for sharing.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Rick on May 28, 2008, 06:49:39 PM
I thought I would post my R-44 bag solution... The 3 Shelf SoniCase. Basically all the cables are hooked up, all I have to is connect my mic cables to XLR interconnects that are connected to my V3 and I'm ready to go. It works/looks better if its up and down

(http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j34/rbendes/IMG_3374.jpg)
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: digifish_music on May 28, 2008, 07:12:27 PM
Quote
the internal mics are damn noisy!
Heh, I discovered that for myself yesterday when using the internal mics for a test of sync vs a Zoom H2.   The H2 built in mic recording was significantly quieter than the R-44 built in mic recording. 

As discussed above, I don't have any issue with preamp noise on the R-44 - as far as I'm concerned, working with classical music, the chances of having to use high enough gain to show the noise in practical situations are zero.  You'd have to be doing nature recording in the middle of nowhere for it to become a real issue IMHO.

The H2 internal mics are stunningly good IMO. Freesound is full of superb field-recordings made using them. They are about the same as an R-09 using Sound Professional binaural (Panasonic WM-61A caps). Why Edirol didn't use these internally I will never know.

digifish
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: digifish_music on May 28, 2008, 07:20:24 PM
Ok. so I got my R-44 yesterday and was quite surprised at how small it really is. It actually fit perfect in my Lowepro Nova 4 along with: 2 DVD batteris and my V3.

Bag shot
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r38/NOLAfishwater/IMG_1285.jpg)


So you are planning to run 2 lunatec preamped channels and 2 R44?

digifish
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: bhadella on May 28, 2008, 07:38:13 PM
Hey V3 > R44 guys, anyone run coax in yet?  I'd like to get a R44 as a bit bucket and 2nd set of pres/recorder if needed.....
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Rick on May 28, 2008, 07:42:00 PM
Hey V3 > R44 guys, anyone run coax in yet?  I'd like to get a R44 as a bit bucket and 2nd set of pres/recorder if needed.....

I have and I haven't had any issues. I don't think anyone has done a conclusive bit for bit test, but everything points to it being accurate.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: bhadella on May 28, 2008, 07:46:06 PM
Hey V3 > R44 guys, anyone run coax in yet?  I'd like to get a R44 as a bit bucket and 2nd set of pres/recorder if needed.....

I have and I haven't had any issues. I don't think anyone has done a conclusive bit for bit test, but everything points to it being accurate.

Coolio.  Did you run the 2nd set of pres/adc clocked to the the coax out of a V3?  That's the other hurdle....
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Rick on May 28, 2008, 08:00:25 PM
Hey V3 > R44 guys, anyone run coax in yet?  I'd like to get a R44 as a bit bucket and 2nd set of pres/recorder if needed.....

I have and I haven't had any issues. I don't think anyone has done a conclusive bit for bit test, but everything points to it being accurate.

Coolio.  Did you run the 2nd set of pres/adc clocked to the the coax out of a V3?  That's the other hurdle....

yup
http://www.archive.org/details/rmountbleau2008-04-25.matrix.flac16
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: bhadella on May 28, 2008, 08:28:49 PM
Hey V3 > R44 guys, anyone run coax in yet?  I'd like to get a R44 as a bit bucket and 2nd set of pres/recorder if needed.....

I have and I haven't had any issues. I don't think anyone has done a conclusive bit for bit test, but everything points to it being accurate.

Coolio.  Did you run the 2nd set of pres/adc clocked to the the coax out of a V3?  That's the other hurdle....

yup
http://www.archive.org/details/rmountbleau2008-04-25.matrix.flac16

Sweet!  No need to stretch....just to line up the files and go?  Damn.....now I need one!
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Rick on May 28, 2008, 08:45:23 PM
Hey V3 > R44 guys, anyone run coax in yet?  I'd like to get a R44 as a bit bucket and 2nd set of pres/recorder if needed.....

I have and I haven't had any issues. I don't think anyone has done a conclusive bit for bit test, but everything points to it being accurate.

Coolio.  Did you run the 2nd set of pres/adc clocked to the the coax out of a V3?  That's the other hurdle....

yup
http://www.archive.org/details/rmountbleau2008-04-25.matrix.flac16

Sweet!  No need to stretch....just to line up the files and go?  Damn.....now I need one!

Yep, It's super easy.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: NOLAfishwater on May 28, 2008, 09:51:21 PM
I thought I would post my R-44 bag solution... The 3 Shelf SoniCase. Basically all the cables are hooked up, all I have to is connect my mic cables to XLR interconnects that are connected to my V3 and I'm ready to go. It works/looks better if its up and down

(http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j34/rbendes/IMG_3374.jpg)

nice Rick. looks good. I have to carry my mics and other patch cables in another bag. man is this thing easy to run.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: NOLAfishwater on May 28, 2008, 09:52:29 PM
ran it in the field for the first time with no problems. just got home but promised my beautiful fiance' that I would watch a movie with her. gonna mix it down tomorrow. will report back.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: stirinthesauce on May 29, 2008, 12:18:18 AM
Ran mine all day on saturday, mme on channels 1 and 2 (aes>spdif) and analog in on channels 3 and 4.   No issues.  The pre's on the r44 actually sound pretty good.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: ascouserinnewyork on May 30, 2008, 01:22:49 AM
As I asked about carry solutions I came across this FITS PERFECTLY (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/387298-REG/Wendt_X3BAG_X3_Audio_Mixer_Bag.html).

It just does not give you great access to the menu and play buttons. For what I am using this unit for - spoken word in a large mix of environments for radio interviews - I can 'set it and forget it'.  The bag has great side access to all the ports with a nice clear flappy. The top pocket (which is where I store the excess headphone cable) could hold a receiver unit (but only 1). I wear a photog jacket with pockets-a-plenty to store batteries and to carry the mic when just walking to locations.

If you are using this unit solo - in the way I am - with just one stick mic (or add in a lav or two) I recommend this bag. Quite pleased after the pleasent B&H staff pulled mutiple bag units for me to try and fit the R44 unit into comfortably. I don't care for carrying mics, pre-amps etc... I already have the FP33 with full portabrace for wireless and extras (which could easily fit the R44 too).. but for what I need, this bag was a tremendous fit and find. In comparison to wearing the FP33 and the Zoom H4 unit - the Wendt and the R44 was a breeze to carry, especially when walking around New York in the beautiful weather we have lately.

Here's the pic I promised.
(http://www.ascouserinnewyork.com/images/WENDT.jpg)
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: sonidista on May 30, 2008, 04:43:47 AM

EDIT: What were you recording BTW spoken voice?

digifish

I recorded production sound for a low budget movie, using an additional SIE (nodbody knows) preamp and I must say the results are really good. I would say film production sound is one of the most sensitive applications of field recording.
I will post something soon.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: sonidista on May 30, 2008, 04:52:02 AM
Try Eveready e-lithium...you can get close to six hours of record time with 4 channels of phantom activated...

So on what do you put the system menu for batteries with these, alkaline or nimh?
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: balou2 on May 30, 2008, 05:01:16 AM
Man...I knew it was smaller, but seeing it next to the V3 really puts it in to context.  My R4 seemed HUGE with my V3 in the bag, both length and width-wise.  Still wish they would have straightened out the metering screen angle a bit.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: sonidista on May 30, 2008, 05:13:34 AM
here are some recordings I did last week:

1 A spoken part, recorded with an Oktava MK 012 with hyper cardiod capsule, run through my SIE 4 channel mono mixer into the R-44 with the second gain level (lowest level seemed a bit too low for the mixer's line out). Recorded 48/24, then converted with dither to 16 bit in Soundtrack Pro.
http://www.sonidista.de/1.aif

2 Rain and nature ambience, recorded with two Oktava MK 012 with omni capsules directly into the R-44 with -44 dB, then (due to low level) increased the gain in Soundtrack Pro by 12 dB, converted to 16 Bit.
http://www.sonidista.de/rain.aif

So, even though I complained about the preamps' noise, it is indeed hard to figure out in the actual recordings.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: mfoley on May 30, 2008, 05:43:14 AM
Try Eveready e-lithium...you can get close to six hours of record time with 4 channels of phantom activated...

So on what do you put the system menu for batteries with these, alkaline or nimh?

Akaline....
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on May 31, 2008, 12:29:40 AM
I've ordered a Powermix III as a monitor mixer for my R-44 - it looks like it should sit underneath or alongside nicely, provide monitoring of a stereo pair plus two panned spots, would run off external battery, provide two headphone outlets, plus line out to backup stereo recorder.  More or less what Edirol should sell, except they should repackage it to match the R-44 casing.

http://www.artproaudio.com/downloads/specsheet/powermixiii.pdf
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: penguin on May 31, 2008, 01:46:24 PM
Success!!

I tested out my two R-44's in slave mode during rehearsal last night.
(http://www.gymagery.com/misc/R-44Kits.jpg)
Both units were plugged in, one had a 16GB Sandisk Ultra, the other an 8GB Sandisk Ultra, both going at 24/48. Recorded about 3 hours total of 8 tracks with no problems, the slave setup worked perfectly. Although I am not an expert on preamp sound quality, I am quite pleased with the results. I will test the rig again under similar circs but with better microphones in two weeks time.

This is exciting for me because I used to have a Digi002/laptop rig, which was a pain to monitor, and oftentimes it distracted me from playing my instruments and leading to a lot of screw ups. With the R-44's its just hit the record button and forget about it. I initially preordered a Sound Devices 788T for the 8 track capabilities, but I am really glad I went with two of the R-44's. With the money I saved I was able to buy a ton of other things.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: digifish_music on May 31, 2008, 07:13:11 PM
Success!!

I tested out my two R-44's in slave mode during rehearsal last night.


Nice case & rig. So what are you doing with 8 channels?

digifish
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: penguin on May 31, 2008, 08:10:23 PM
Success!!

I tested out my two R-44's in slave mode during rehearsal last night.


Nice case & rig. So what are you doing with 8 channels?

digifish

Re rig - Thanks!

Re channels:
Channels 1&2 Drum Overheads & some ambience/audience (2 ST 55s)
Channel 3 Guitar (SM57)
Channel 4 Vocals (direct from wireless mike receiver)
Channel 5 Bass Drum (internally mounted D112)
Channel 6 Bass (direct out from bass amp)
Channels 7&8 Stereo Keyboards (1/4" outs)
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: willndmb on June 01, 2008, 07:32:36 PM
+T on the 8 channel work
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: RobC on June 02, 2008, 08:46:27 PM
I used my R44 for the first time this weekend,  worked great

picture of it just before using it for the first time (other than in front of my stereo)


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v480/RobC/Crawfish%20Fest%202008/IMG_2406.jpg)
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: EverybodyelsE on June 03, 2008, 07:00:35 AM
First post on here and I'm so happy I found this website  :)

I work on the official Doctor Who audio dramas and I'm thinking of buying the R-44 for sound design, as well as other things! I already own a Zoom H4 and Zoom H2, both of which I love apart from the fact the H4 has a well known beeping and tone problem in recordings using internal batteries! I have bought an external DVD player battery for the H4 and it works beautifully now.

I would be mainly using the R-44 with an AT835b shotgun mic for creating sound effects and as my main recorder, the H4 as backup or if I need a quick stereo recording, the H4 as my 4ch ambiance recorder. Is this a good set up or am I wasting my money?

- How likely is it that the R-44 will be compatible with 16gb and 32gb SDHC cards?
- I'll be getting some Energizer 2500mAh Rechargable AA's for this too. How long would they last?

Thanks,
Martin
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on June 03, 2008, 09:58:09 AM
See http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,97214.msg1376451.html#msg1376451 re battery life.  The last few pages of that long earlier discussion relate to user experiences - might be worth a general look.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: stirinthesauce on June 03, 2008, 10:13:11 AM
from the reports of others, no problems with 16g sdhc cards.  Not sure on 32g.  Anyone tried that yet?


I have fallen in love with this recorder  ;D
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: NOLAfishwater on June 03, 2008, 10:43:05 AM
from the reports of others, no problems with 16g sdhc cards.  Not sure on 32g.  Anyone tried that yet?


I have fallen in love with this recorder  ;D

it is dreamy isn't it.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Gutbucket on June 03, 2008, 11:01:24 AM
Must.. resist.. awhile.. longer..  AARGH!
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: rastasean on June 03, 2008, 11:10:34 AM
generally speaking, why wouldn't people just buy the r-44 over the sounddevices 722? I know this is a harsh comparison but I think I would be satisfied with two more channels over two fewer with a hard drive. But then again, that means I would have to come up with two extra mics.
Do those who have the r-44 like them?
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Gutbucket on June 03, 2008, 11:16:47 AM
Do those who have the r-44 like them?

Umm, have you read any of this thread? 
Have you read any of the posts on this page?
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Rick on June 03, 2008, 11:20:54 AM
generally speaking, why wouldn't people just buy the r-44 over the sounddevices 722?

Better Build?, Hard Drive?, Better Sounding? Pretty Lights? Proven Track Recorder? ... 

The question is (if you have a outboard A/D) why would you get a HD-P2 or PMD-671 over the R-44.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: EverybodyelsE on June 03, 2008, 11:28:31 AM
Thanks guys. Very nice to see quick posts in a forum  ;)

I will definitly be getting one of these ASAP! I've fallen in love with it already before I've even got it, lol. Sounds very impressive and looks gorgeous. I'll be getting the optional bag too, which is a fantastic addition.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Colin Liston on June 03, 2008, 11:29:51 AM
You guys are killing me. 
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: stirinthesauce on June 03, 2008, 11:40:06 AM


What is comprised, IMO, in the r-44 over the higher priced boxes is more than made up by it's appeal fiscally.  It also functions wonderfully, the stock pre's actually sound pretty darn good.  Of course, I'm still running outboard pre/ad on channels 1,2 and soon will be running outboard on channels 3,4 but still, the price is far far far lower than the other 4 channel recorders of another name.  I would not hesitate, in lowpro situations, to just run it stock.  I also like not having a hd.  I much prefer removable, swappable, flash memory.  Reduces size, weight and improves battery performance.

I think edirol hit a homerun with this box. 
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: sonidista on June 03, 2008, 12:15:32 PM
generally speaking, why wouldn't people just buy the r-44 over the sounddevices 722?

Better Build?, Hard Drive?, Better Sounding? Pretty Lights? Proven Track Recorder? ... 

Build is better on the SD, true, but very heavy and the R-44 is well built too. Hard drive sucks if you ask me, time from switching on the SD until you're able to record is looooong, R-44: less than 5 sec, unbelievable! Sound, yes, that one goes to SD without any doubt. Pretty lights too, but I like the display on the R-44 better. Its also cool that you can easily look atthe display from top and front due to its 45 degree angle.
Well, it's not easy to justify the huge price difference between SD and R-44..
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: mfoley on June 03, 2008, 12:20:41 PM
I can't believe we are trying to compare the 722 and the R44 given the HUGE cost difference...however since we are even considering comparing the two shows how much bang-for-the-buck the R44 is...  I agree...Edirol has got a winner here...
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Rick on June 03, 2008, 01:05:39 PM
Well, it's not easy to justify the huge price difference between SD and R-44..

Agreed
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Alex_The_ Frenchy on June 03, 2008, 01:57:15 PM
Hello guys, it's my 1st message here.
I speak a quite bad English, so I apologise for my grammar and vocabulary. :tomato:

I'm an happy owner of R-44 since 10 days, and I think I'm perhaps the 1st one in France  ;D because no-one replies to my several posts on different french websites. But I'm very pleased to join the R-44 users'club

I read your posts from several days and really agree with you: this box is a bomb... It sounds terrific.

I haven't test how long time it's possible to record with 4xAA yet. Someone does?

Well, it's not easy to justify the huge price difference between SD and R-44..

Agreed

+1  ;)

I do love this R-44!
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: NOLAfishwater on June 03, 2008, 02:31:57 PM
Eric Lindell
2008-5-28
Lafayette Square
New Orleans, LA

Source:
ch1&2: AKG c460b ck61> Lunatec V3> Edirol R-44 24/48
Ch3&4: AKG 414XLS Omni (Healy Method)> Edirol R-44 24/48

Stand at 7.5' DFC, ~25' from stage

Taped and transferred by NOLAfishwater Louie.Liokis@gmail.com

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
11.
12.
13.
14.
15.
16.

http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=515597
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: rastasean on June 03, 2008, 03:01:43 PM
I can't believe we are trying to compare the 722 and the R44 given the HUGE cost difference...however since we are even considering comparing the two shows how much bang-for-the-buck the R44 is...  I agree...Edirol has got a winner here...

I didn't want a DIRECT comparison but two channels vs four for less than $900. Most of us on here are recording loud noise called music so I thought (and what I have read on here) the pre-amps in the r-44 have been pretty good already. I hadn't paid much attention to the R-44 until today but I've heard a lot about the 722/744 but I have also heard how expensive they can be. $2400, for example. I'm sure all the sound devices are very durable, time tested machines but remember most of us on here are recording from PA speakers for our personal enjoyment on personal stereo equipment...we are not making movies or recording audio for much else.

Here's a question:
Is there anyone who thought they would buy the 722/744 sound devices but "settled" (and I use that word gently) on the R-44?
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: penguin on June 03, 2008, 04:03:51 PM
Here's a question:
Is there anyone who thought they would buy the 722/744 sound devices but "settled" (and I use that word gently) on the R-44?

I had preordered a Sound Devices 788T a few weeks ago. But at around $6000 I spent a lot of time thinking about it. I ended up getting two R-44s and slaving them together. I am glad I went with the R-44s. I like the portability, ease of use, built in mics and speakers (for use in a pinch), no moving parts, XLR/TRS combo jacks (don't have to spend a lot of $$$ buying the SD TA3 cables). With the money I 'saved' I bought some large diaphragm mics, some SDHC cards, Logic Studio, 16GB of RAM and 3 1TB SATA internal hard drives for my Mac, and some gas for my truck.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Gutbucket on June 03, 2008, 04:29:10 PM
Here's a question:
Is there anyone who thought they would buy the 722/744 sound devices but "settled" (and I use that word gently) on the R-44?

I had preordered a Sound Devices 788T a few weeks ago. But at around $6000 I spent a lot of time thinking about it. I ended up getting two R-44s and slaving them together. I am glad I went with the R-44s. I like the portability, ease of use, built in mics and speakers (for use in a pinch), no moving parts, XLR/TRS combo jacks (don't have to spend a lot of $$$ buying the SD TA3 cables). With the money I 'saved' I bought some large diaphragm mics, some SDHC cards, Logic Studio, 16GB of RAM and 3 1TB SATA internal hard drives for my Mac, and some gas for my truck.

What, like a gallon?  ;)
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: rastasean on June 03, 2008, 04:38:29 PM
I had preordered a Sound Devices 788T a few weeks ago. But at around $6000 I spent a lot of time thinking about it. I ended up getting two R-44s and slaving them together. I am glad I went with the R-44s. I like the portability, ease of use, built in mics and speakers (for use in a pinch), no moving parts, XLR/TRS combo jacks (don't have to spend a lot of $$$ buying the SD TA3 cables). With the money I 'saved' I bought some large diaphragm mics, some SDHC cards, Logic Studio, 16GB of RAM and 3 1TB SATA internal hard drives for my Mac, and some gas for my truck.

Ohhh, nice setup! That's what I'm talking about!
And other reason to get two r-44s is to let me borrow one to see if I want to buy one, right? hehe  ;D
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: hypnotoad on June 03, 2008, 04:50:20 PM
from the reports of others, no problems with 16g sdhc cards.  Not sure on 32g.  Anyone tried that yet?


I have fallen in love with this recorder  ;D

it is dreamy isn't it.

You guys (and this thread) aren't helping my bank account.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: digifish_music on June 03, 2008, 07:17:50 PM
generally speaking, why wouldn't people just buy the r-44 over the sounddevices 722? I know this is a harsh comparison but I think I would be satisfied with two more channels over two fewer with a hard drive. But then again, that means I would have to come up with two extra mics.
Do those who have the r-44 like them?

Just a note, an R44 + 2 X Sound Devices Mix Pres costs ~ $2000. That would give you 4 channels of Sound Devices audio quality at less than 722 prices. But it's not a single box solution. Not a big deal if you are working from an audio-cart. However I have no doubt the stock pres would provide excellent results for the majority of location recording jobs.

digifish

 
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: leehookem on June 03, 2008, 08:32:41 PM
oh hells yeah!  upgrades coming soon!   ;D

http://oade.com/digital_recorders/hard_disc_recorders/R44_upgrades.html
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on June 03, 2008, 08:37:05 PM
Quote
I haven't test how long time it's possible to record with 4xAA yet. Someone does?
See http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,103270.msg1399949.html#msg1399949

I very much doubt whether in a properly conducted blind test a decent-sized group of test listeners would come up with statistical proof that there are audible differences between the R-44 and radically more expensive devices, using live concert material as the source.   However, the chances of anyone conducting such a test to the required standards are zero, so that leaves us free to continue to state our personal opinions on the matter, probably influenced by which device we own!

Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Rick on June 03, 2008, 08:46:58 PM
oh hells yeah!  upgrades coming soon!   ;D

http://oade.com/digital_recorders/hard_disc_recorders/R44_upgrades.html

Do it Lee!
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: leehookem on June 03, 2008, 08:48:51 PM
It's gonna be a while, but will happen.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: boa on June 03, 2008, 09:32:30 PM
oh hells yeah!  upgrades coming soon!   ;D

http://oade.com/digital_recorders/hard_disc_recorders/R44_upgrades.html

I expect to receive my TMOD R44 from Busman in the next couple days.  Can't wait to cut it loose!
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: willndmb on June 03, 2008, 10:05:35 PM
oh hells yeah!  upgrades coming soon!   ;D

http://oade.com/digital_recorders/hard_disc_recorders/R44_upgrades.html
i was just going to ask about upgrades and now i see oade is TBA and Busman has one coming out soon

it seemed by most accounts that the r44 was pretty solid and didn't need a mod like the r4
but i guess you can always try and make it better
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: kgreener on June 03, 2008, 10:21:08 PM
FWIW I had inquired with Doug a week or two ago about his planned R44 mods and this was his response (remember, these are his words, not mine ;) ):

Hi!
I have had one for a while and I like it.  It does have a serious issue if you intend to record soft sounds.  You can hear the digital noise of its display in the background at high gain.  At lower gain settings, from about -44 on up it sounds fine.  The stock sound is a bit thick and slow or "smooth" with a bit of hiss, a sound I would call vintage.  I expect to offer a concert upgrade for recording music.  I used the R44 with Concert Upgrade for the third time recording stage sound on 2 channels and the board feed on the other 2 and it works great. The sound is very fast with exceptional detail, depth and clarity.  I love the way it is designed, ergonomics are excellent as is the feature set, battery life is good and it is tiny!  The trouble is the upgrade dramatically increases detail and clarity which has the unfortunate side effect of making it easier to hear the noise at high gains.  I want to see if I can fix the digital noise before I release any upgraded machines.
I plan on asking 895.00 for them with the Concert upgrade installed.  I have hopes I will be able to pull off a high gain MOD, like the R4 or R4pro ambient upgrades, it is likely to be around 1k.
I hope this helps and thanks for the inquiry....Doug
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: leehookem on June 03, 2008, 10:24:23 PM
awesome news.  I was just getting ready to email Doug.  thanks for posting.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: kgreener on June 03, 2008, 10:27:13 PM
happy to help Lee  :D
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: boa on June 04, 2008, 02:54:59 PM
SD/SDHC Card Compatibility update from Edirol - 04 JUNE 2008:

CARD TEST WITH R-44
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OK
 
Toshiba SD-M32G,  32GB
Toshiba SD-M16G,  16GB
Toshiba SD-HC008GT4,  8GB
 
Hagiwara HPC-SDH8GT4C,  8GB
Hagiwara HPC-SDH4GT4C,  4GB
Hagiwara HPC-SD2GT,  2GB
Hagiwara HPC-SD512T,  512MB
 
Kingston SD2/8GBFE,  8GB
Kingston SD2/4GBFE,  4GB
Kingston SD/2GBKR,  2GB
Kingston SD/2GBFE,  2GB
Kingston SD/1GBFE,  1GB
 
Panasonic RP-SDM16GK1K,  16GB
Panasonic RP-SDV16GK1K,  16GB
Panasonic RP-SDM08GK1K,  8GB
Panasonic RP-SDV08GK1K,  8GB
Panasonic RP-SDV04GJ1K,  4GB
Panasonic RP-SDM04GK1K,  4GB
Panasonic RP-SDV02GJ1A,  2GB
Panasonic RP-SDM02GJ1A,  2GB
Panasonic RP-SDR02GJ1A,  2GB
Panasonic RP-SDQ02GJ1A,  2GB
Panasonic RP-SDV01GJ1A,  1GB
Panasonic RP-SDM01GJ1A,  1GB
Panasonic RP-SDR01GJ1A,  1GB
Panasonic RP-SDQ01GJ1A,  1GB
Panasonic RP-SDR512J1A,  512MB
 
IO DATA SDHC-8G,  8GB
IO DATA SDHC-4G,  4GB
IO DATA SD-2G,   2GB
IO DATA SD-1G,   1GB
IO DATA SD20-1G,  1GB
IO DATA SD20-512M,  512MB
 
BUFFALO RSDC-G2G,  2GB
BUFFALO RSDC-G1G,  1GB
BUFFALO RSDC-S512M,  512MB
BUFFALO RSDC-G512M,  512MB
 
SanDisk SDSDRH-8192-903, 8GB
SanDisk SDSDBR-4096-J85, 4GB
SanDisk SDSDRH-4096-903, 4GB
SanDisk SDSDB-2048-J60  2GB
SanDisk SDSDB-1024-J60  1GB
SanDisk SDSDH-1024-903,  1GB
SanDisk SDSDB-1024-A10,  1GB
SanDisk SDSDH-512-903,  512MB
SanDisk SDSDB-256-J60,  256MB
 
Lexar SD2GB-231,  2GB
Lexar SD1GB-231,  1GB
Lexar SD512-231,  512MB
 
Transcend TS8GSDHC,  8GB
Transcend TS4GSDHC,  4GB
Transcend TS4GSD150,  4GB
Transcend TS2GSD150,  2GB
Transcend TS1GSD80,  1GB
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NG (slow)
 
PQI QSDS-1G,   1GB  4824M4-slow
BUFFALO RSDC-S2G,  2GB  9624S2-slow
Hagiwara HPC-SD1GT,  1GB  9624S2-slow
Transcend TS1GSDC,  1GB  9624S2-slow 4824M4-OK
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: TSM on June 04, 2008, 03:23:26 PM
I just purchased some 4GB OCZ class 6 cards.So far so good..... :)
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: EverybodyelsE on June 04, 2008, 04:26:16 PM
Nice to see one 32gb in there  ;D
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: RobC on June 04, 2008, 09:47:36 PM
I used a 8 GB PNY class 4 with no problems  @  16/44.1  mono x4,  just got 2 new class 6 cards I will be using for 24 bit stuff,  probably stereo x 2

Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on June 04, 2008, 10:44:32 PM
I had an 8GB Transcend die between taking it out of the R-44 and inserting it into the PC.  Sorry if I've already mentioned that.  It worked nicely till then...
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Alex_The_ Frenchy on June 05, 2008, 04:14:12 AM
I use a 8GB Transcend without any problem.

Autonomy test:
Alimentation: 4 accus Ni-MH de 2650mA)
Luminosity (Display): 4
Buttons: DIM
Light: OFF
Sensitivity: -44 dB (= 15H)
Level: Center(= 12H)
Limiter: ON
Alim Phantom x 4 micros
Folders: BWF 24bits/96KHz
Stéréo x 2

Résults registering on SDHC 8 Go (card changed till 2H): 3H21

Very nice; It's sufficient for me.  :)
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: sonidista on June 05, 2008, 06:02:05 AM
I use a 8GB Transcend without any problem.

Autonomy test:
Alimentation: 4 accus Ni-MH de 2650mA)
Luminosity (Display): 4
Buttons: DIM
Light: OFF
Sensitivity: -44 dB (= 15H)
Level: Center(= 12H)
Limiter: ON
Alim Phantom x 4 micros
Folders: BWF 24bits/96KHz
Stéréo x 2

Résults registering on SDHC 8 Go (card changed till 2H): 3H21

Very nice; It's sufficient for me.  :)


so you're satisfied with your NiMH accus, compared to regular AA batteries? What brand are they?
thanks
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on June 05, 2008, 08:15:17 AM
Here in Australia the only readily available brand of NiMH 2650mAh is Duracell.  And they do provide good performance.

Alex of France seems to have got longer from his than mine in what was I think a pretty similar test - but different mics draw larger or smaller phantom power currents, so anyone's results are likely to be only a broad indication of obtainable battery life.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: sonidista on June 05, 2008, 08:24:45 AM
I read Varta Power and Professional are good. They even have 2700 mAh.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Alex_The_ Frenchy on June 05, 2008, 09:31:44 AM
I use Duracell batteries, like Ozpeter.
The 4 microphones are 2 x B5 (Beyerdynamic) and 2 Sennheiser: ME-62 and ME-64.

The pre-record function was ON too, but I've registered inmediatly.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Busman Audio on June 05, 2008, 11:07:36 AM
Hey all. I now have the transparency mod worked out for the R-44. The vintage mod will have to wait until I find the right components that will fit in that tiny box.
The pre amps different in this box from the R4 and R4pro and they don't leave any room for much but I have crammed my components in there for an awesome sound.

It consists of the usual op amp and capacitor changes in the input path. No gain stage changes as it doesn't need it.

Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: RobC on June 05, 2008, 11:18:06 AM
Hey all. I now have the transparency mod worked out for the R-44. The vintage mod will have to wait until I find the right components that will fit in that tiny box.
The pre amps different in this box from the R4 and R4pro and they don't leave any room for much but I have crammed my components in there for an awesome sound.

It consists of the usual op amp and capacitor changes in the input path. No gain stage changes as it doesn't need it.



is there any way you can mod the gain knobs so they don't click with steped gain
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Busman Audio on June 05, 2008, 04:39:39 PM
Sorry this is not an option.

I only do the mods I described I don't have time to do odd custom mods.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: RobC on June 05, 2008, 06:13:01 PM
no problem
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: digifish_music on June 05, 2008, 09:40:00 PM
Hey all. I now have the transparency mod worked out for the R-44. The vintage mod will have to wait until I find the right components that will fit in that tiny box.
The pre amps different in this box from the R4 and R4pro and they don't leave any room for much but I have crammed my components in there for an awesome sound.

It consists of the usual op amp and capacitor changes in the input path. No gain stage changes as it doesn't need it.



Thanks for this information. Is there any chance of doing a ticking-clock comparison of stock vs your mod, like this one I did vs the MixPre?

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,103270.msg1387447.html#msg1387447

I see you also mentioned some display-noise bleed into the mic-pres (a conversation copied into this forum), I have been looking closely at R44 recordings in spectrographs and haven't seen/heard anything like this, can you point me to a spectral range?

digifish
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: DSBD on June 06, 2008, 12:19:30 PM
B&H Photo Video says they have the R-44 in stock now, $895 including shipping

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/sitem/sku=542280&is=REG&bi=E15

Sweetwater says they have it in stock, too, same price.

Anyone know of better prices anywhere?  There's a member here who I believe is an Edirol dealer, and I'd heard second-hand he was offering a substantially better price, but he hasn't responded to my inquiries.

We are selling the r-44's at $800 shipped.  the caveat is the wait as i can't keep 'em on the shelf.  right now we are running at a 2 week wait.  all orders need to be emailed or called in at 201-679-4164.  - dave@micsupply.com
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Gutbucket on June 06, 2008, 02:41:28 PM
^^^
I..can't..resist..much..longer..
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: leehookem on June 07, 2008, 10:55:18 AM
I finally go to use this little box for the first time last night at Robert Walter Trio.  I ran AKG 481 (stage lip, DIN) and soundboard.  Just the stock unit, no additional preamp.  I gotta say, this thing right out of the box smokes.  Any mods that Doug comes up with will be icing on the cake.

I wouldn't hesitate to run it stock if I had to.  Sign me up.
I will post a link to the archive in a few days when I finish.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: NOLAfishwater on June 07, 2008, 02:02:03 PM
I finally go to use this little box for the first time last night at Robert Walter Trio.  I ran AKG 481 (stage lip, DIN) and soundboard.  Just the stock unit, no additional preamp.  I gotta say, this thing right out of the box smokes.  Any mods that Doug comes up with will be icing on the cake.

I wouldn't hesitate to run it stock if I had to.  Sign me up.
I will post a link to the archive in a few days when I finish.

I taped his trio on Thursday night here in NOLA. ran AKG461>V3 + AKG414 Subcard from the lip of stage. Got a board patch for the second set with my MTII so I mixed the 4 AKG + SBD for just the 2nd. I too am very pleased with the stock preamps.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: leehookem on June 07, 2008, 02:11:41 PM
oh, and thanks goes to Rick for letting me run his R44.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: leehookem on June 07, 2008, 02:35:31 PM
Here is a sample of last nights show.  50/50 Matrix  flac file

Robert Walter Trio (http://www.sendspace.com/file/sptwsf)

I am in the process of tracking out the AKG files.  When I finish I will post the same track with mikes only.

AKG 481 (http://www.sendspace.com/file/ul6hhc)
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: kgreener on June 07, 2008, 05:58:34 PM
I finally go to use this little box for the first time last night at Robert Walter Trio.  I ran AKG 481 (stage lip, DIN) and soundboard.  Just the stock unit, no additional preamp.  I gotta say, this thing right out of the box smokes.  Any mods that Doug comes up with will be icing on the cake.

I wouldn't hesitate to run it stock if I had to.  Sign me up.
I will post a link to the archive in a few days when I finish.

sweet Lee, sounds great. 

any chance you'll be upping this show?  (fingers crossed  ;))

+t
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: leehookem on June 07, 2008, 06:15:03 PM
Trying to get the setlist together.  Matrix source will be heading to the archive.

This is what I have so far:

Quote
Robert Walter Trio
2008-06-06
Threadgill's
Austin, TX

Taped and transferred by Lee Hart
leehookem21 at yahoo dot com

Source:  AKG 481 > Edirol R44
         SBD > Edirol R44
Location:  Mics stage lip, DIN
Transfer:  Edirol R44 > Soundforge 7.0 (fades, resample, dither) >CDWave (tracking) > flac level 6

Set 1
Disc 1

01
02
03 Parts and Holes
04
05
06
07
08

Set 2
Disc 2

01 -intro by Barbara Prashner-
02
03 Snakes and Spiders
04 El Cuervo
05
06
07 Dr. Watson
08
09
10 Kickin' Up Dust
11

Robert Walter - keys
Brad Houser - bass
Jonny Vidacovich - drums
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: NOLAfishwater on June 11, 2008, 04:08:36 PM
4 channel matrix sample:
Papa Grows Funk
2008-6-9
AKG414 subcard from the lip of stage>V3  + SBD

track 4
http://www.sendspace.com/file/arxop5
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: kskreider on June 11, 2008, 05:59:14 PM
4 channel matrix sample:
Papa Grows Funk
2008-6-9
AKG414 subcard from the lip of stage>V3  + SBD

track 4
http://www.sendspace.com/file/arxop5

Sorry I couldn't hang out longer for that one.  I felt like they were just getting going when I left.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Rick on June 11, 2008, 09:29:00 PM
4 channel matrix sample:
Papa Grows Funk
2008-6-9
AKG414 subcard from the lip of stage>V3  + SBD

track 4
http://www.sendspace.com/file/arxop5

Man that sounds awesome! +T
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: sonidista on June 12, 2008, 04:10:01 AM
I encountered a PROBLEM with my R-44 a few days ago when I recorded 4 tracks (44/24, 4xmono with 2x phantom, run with external power). 8 and a half minutes into the recording you can hear clicks/glitches or something like that. There was no clipping, and the sounds are not recorded, they're digital. Weird thing is, they're only on the first two tracks (the ones with phantom power switched on), for a duration of about ten seconds.
Now of course I am puzzled about the source of this. Either this has to do with the R-44 (worst case), or my SD card (Kingston class 6, 8gig), or (maybe more likely) the somewhat dodgy electricity in the space - maybe someone in the next room switched some electric device on and off? The last assumption would imply that in conditions like these you should only record with battery power!?

Any ideas, hobby electricians maybe?

If someone's interested, here's the part of the recording with the glitches (mixdown of the two phantom tracks):
http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/12/23/547356/glitch.mp3
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Nick's Picks on June 12, 2008, 06:23:49 AM
I've been talking w/Doug about this deck.  I want one and was listening to his opinions.
He finds it "thick and slow" sounding, like a vintage piece of gear.

His hears are tuned to fast and transparent.

He also said that the stock preamp add nothing (noise, hiss, other crap), and that their lack of speed is a crime of omission, and very easy to accept and deal with.  Probably not a warm mod coming any time soon..but more of the T/ACM/HD flavor would be my guess.
Prices will be good! 

Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: kgreener on June 12, 2008, 07:41:30 AM
Hey Nick, check a few pages back, I had posted this about a week ago:

FWIW I had inquired with Doug a week or two ago about his planned R44 mods and this was his response (remember, these are his words, not mine ;) ):

Hi!
I have had one for a while and I like it.  It does have a serious issue if you intend to record soft sounds.  You can hear the digital noise of its display in the background at high gain.  At lower gain settings, from about -44 on up it sounds fine.  The stock sound is a bit thick and slow or "smooth" with a bit of hiss, a sound I would call vintage.  I expect to offer a concert upgrade for recording music.  I used the R44 with Concert Upgrade for the third time recording stage sound on 2 channels and the board feed on the other 2 and it works great. The sound is very fast with exceptional detail, depth and clarity.  I love the way it is designed, ergonomics are excellent as is the feature set, battery life is good and it is tiny!  The trouble is the upgrade dramatically increases detail and clarity which has the unfortunate side effect of making it easier to hear the noise at high gains.  I want to see if I can fix the digital noise before I release any upgraded machines.
I plan on asking 895.00 for them with the Concert upgrade installed.  I have hopes I will be able to pull off a high gain MOD, like the R4 or R4pro ambient upgrades, it is likely to be around 1k.
I hope this helps and thanks for the inquiry....Doug

Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: digifish_music on June 12, 2008, 07:49:01 AM
Hey Nick, check a few pages back, I had posted this about a week ago:

FWIW I had inquired with Doug a week or two ago about his planned R44 mods and this was his response (remember, these are his words, not mine ;) ):

Hi!
I have had one for a while and I like it.  It does have a serious issue if you intend to record soft sounds.  You can hear the digital noise of its display in the background at high gain.  At lower gain settings, from about -44 on up it sounds fine.  The stock sound is a bit thick and slow or "smooth" with a bit of hiss, a sound I would call vintage.  I expect to offer a concert upgrade for recording music.  I used the R44 with Concert Upgrade for the third time recording stage sound on 2 channels and the board feed on the other 2 and it works great. The sound is very fast with exceptional detail, depth and clarity.  I love the way it is designed, ergonomics are excellent as is the feature set, battery life is good and it is tiny!  The trouble is the upgrade dramatically increases detail and clarity which has the unfortunate side effect of making it easier to hear the noise at high gains.  I want to see if I can fix the digital noise before I release any upgraded machines.
I plan on asking 895.00 for them with the Concert upgrade installed.  I have hopes I will be able to pull off a high gain MOD, like the R4 or R4pro ambient upgrades, it is likely to be around 1k.
I hope this helps and thanks for the inquiry....Doug


I also asked him to give more details on this noise as I am looking at spectrograms and listening to a Rode NT1-A going into it and can't see/hear anything like digi-noise, not even when the gain is normalised on recordings of silence.

I do agree it's too hissy for quietude field-recording work where you need to use the two highest gain levels, and so the stock pres could do with a noise-reduction mod if you plan to push the gain above -44 dB.

digifish
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on June 12, 2008, 09:45:02 AM
Quote
The stock sound is a bit thick and slow or "smooth" with a bit of hiss, a sound I would call vintage.  I expect to offer a concert upgrade for recording music.  I used the R44 with Concert Upgrade for the third time recording stage sound on 2 channels and the board feed on the other 2 and it works great. The sound is very fast with exceptional detail, depth and clarity [....]  The trouble is the upgrade dramatically increases detail and clarity which has the unfortunate side effect of making it easier to hear the noise at high gains. 
I thought people who were serious about audio had moved on from that kind of mumbo-jumbo-speak.  Are there some properly conducted test measurements to show the nature of these qualities of thickness, slowness, smoothness, fast, detailed, depth, and clarity?  Are there methodologies for the measurement of these phenomena and proper definitions to be seen on line somewhere?  I'd be very interested to have the chance to study them.  We're in danger of getting into the territory of snake oil if there's no means of verifying the assertions. 

Following the recent debunking of the SACD myth following a year of properly conducted blind listening tests, I feel the need to be very careful not to be influenced by imprecise statements about audio quality that do not have the backing of stated quantifiable and verifiable facts - particularly when the acceptance of opinions as fact is to the financial benefit of the person making the statement.

In the matter of noise - with any audio equipment - indeed, the nature recordists have special requirements.  They are not concerned with the authentic reproduction of sound - they often require unrealistic levels of amplification in order to identify and classify the sounds they capture. 

On the other hand, those concerned with the high fidelity reproduction of music strive to reproduce the original level of the original sound, as the ear will distort the perception of the frequency response if it reproduced too loud or too quiet (as quantified in the Fletcher-Munson Curves).  Therefore, to reproduce quiet music at higher than natural levels leads to a reduction in fidelity, and likewise to reproduce loud music at low levels is similarly incorrect, if high fidelity is the aim.  Noise levels in almost all recently designed pro or semi pro recording equipment, including the R-44, is not likely to be any kind of a problem when the music is reproduced at realistic, accurate levels under typical listening conditions.  It's easily tested - monitor the system recording in a reasonably quiet room using closed-back headphones.  Set the preamp level, or headphone level, so that the low-level natural background sound in the room is heard at the same level with the headphones on or off your ears.  Unless there is something seriously amiss at any stage in the signal path, you won't be able to perceive any system noise.  Nor will you when listening to music at accurate levels.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Gutbucket on June 12, 2008, 10:20:57 AM
Therefore, to reproduce quiet music at higher than natural levels leads to a reduction in fidelity, and likewise to reproduce loud music at low levels is similarly incorrect, if high fidelity is the aim.  Noise levels in almost all recently designed pro or semi pro recording equipment, including the R-44, is not likely to be any kind of a problem when the music is reproduced at realistic, accurate levels under typical listening conditions.

The playback system capable of reproducing the SPL of a live amplified concert typical of what many are recording around here is rare indeed.  Likewise I often increase the playback volume of low level classical passages and very quiet 'new music' pieces.  Technically those simple volume changes are linear distortions, but there are plenty of far worse non-linear distortions to worry about.  A reduction in fidelity?  Perhaps in an absolute sense, but I don't want to wear earplugs when I listen to my stereo and I like to hear the little details in those low level passages.  Those things are much more important to me than being absolutely faithful to the original SPL.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: digifish_music on June 12, 2008, 08:15:18 PM

In the matter of noise - with any audio equipment - indeed, the nature recordists have special requirements.  They are not concerned with the authentic reproduction of sound - they often require unrealistic levels of amplification in order to identify and classify the sounds they capture. 


The amplification in my case is simply to get a decent recording level, so you can listen to it during playback without reaching for the volume knob :)

I agree with you about the fast/slow pres. I have no doubt there are audible differences in preamp designs, however during subjective assessment playback, level matching is critical and rarely done with the accuracy required. If you record impulses and test waves you will be able to clearly see the effects of various pre+A/D combinations in the recorded data. So it would be nice to see some objective waveform measures that explain what is being heard and manipulated in the preamp design. As I noted previously, I am yet to see (or hear) any 'digi-noise' in the R44, I will put up some spectrographs of -56 dB recordings of silence within the next day or so.

digifish 
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on June 12, 2008, 11:54:25 PM
Meanwhile, I've received a replacement for the Transcend 8GB card that died somewhere between taking it out of the R-44 and inserting it into my PC, and I'm giving it a good thrashing using the CardTest donationware program - http://sourceforge.net/projects/cardtest is the link.  Maybe I should mention that program in the media forum too as a search didn't reveal a previous mention of it.  (Note that testing cards destroys any data on them and requires a subsequent reformat).
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on June 13, 2008, 02:28:48 AM
See http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,105391.0.html for a new thread on card speeds and stuff.   Much food for thought there!
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Kindguy on June 13, 2008, 03:34:03 AM
Hey Nick, check a few pages back, I had posted this about a week ago:

FWIW I had inquired with Doug a week or two ago about his planned R44 mods and this was his response (remember, these are his words, not mine ;) ):

Hi!
I have had one for a while and I like it.  It does have a serious issue if you intend to record soft sounds.  You can hear the digital noise of its display in the background at high gain.  At lower gain settings, from about -44 on up it sounds fine.  The stock sound is a bit thick and slow or "smooth" with a bit of hiss, a sound I would call vintage.  I expect to offer a concert upgrade for recording music.  I used the R44 with Concert Upgrade for the third time recording stage sound on 2 channels and the board feed on the other 2 and it works great. The sound is very fast with exceptional detail, depth and clarity.  I love the way it is designed, ergonomics are excellent as is the feature set, battery life is good and it is tiny!  The trouble is the upgrade dramatically increases detail and clarity which has the unfortunate side effect of making it easier to hear the noise at high gains.  I want to see if I can fix the digital noise before I release any upgraded machines.
I plan on asking 895.00 for them with the Concert upgrade installed.  I have hopes I will be able to pull off a high gain MOD, like the R4 or R4pro ambient upgrades, it is likely to be around 1k.
I hope this helps and thanks for the inquiry....Doug


Sweet by the time Doug figures this out I'll be ready to pick one up. Was thinking about selling one of my pre's to fund one. Not anymore I'll just save up. Plus you know I'll want 2 pre's in the long run with a 4 track recorder.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: sonidista on June 13, 2008, 04:35:34 AM
Errm... sorry if I'm bothering you here, but my post seems to have been overlooked by many, so here iit is again, maybe some of you have thoughts on that issue. thanks.

I encountered a PROBLEM with my R-44 a few days ago when I recorded 4 tracks (44/24, 4xmono with 2x phantom, run with external power). 8 and a half minutes into the recording you can hear clicks/glitches or something like that. There was no clipping, and the sounds are not recorded, they're digital. Weird thing is, they're only on the first two tracks (the ones with phantom power switched on), for a duration of about ten seconds.
Now of course I am puzzled about the source of this. Either this has to do with the R-44 (worst case), or my SD card (Kingston class 6, 8gig), or (maybe more likely) the somewhat dodgy electricity in the space - maybe someone in the next room switched some electric device on and off? The last assumption would imply that in conditions like these you should only record with battery power!?

Any ideas, hobby electricians maybe?

If someone's interested, here's the part of the recording with the glitches (mixdown of the two phantom tracks):
http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/12/23/547356/glitch.mp3
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: digifish_music on June 13, 2008, 06:03:38 AM
Doug notes - "You can hear the digital noise of its display in the background at high gain".

OK, here is a Rode NT4 sitting in a vocal booth connected to an Edirol R44 running all but flat-out on the internal preamps...

R44 on internal batteries.
Chanels 1 & 2.
Phantom on.
Low-cut off.
Limiter off.
Display on (default brightness).
Preamp sensitivity (max) = -56 dB
Level = 12 O'Clock
24 bit @ 44.1 kHz

Here is the sound  (http://www.digifishmusic.com/public/sounds/TapersSection_RodeNT4-R44-56dB.wav)<- Click here to download the 10 second sample

(http://www.digifishmusic.com/public/images/TapersSection_RodeNT4-R44-56dB.jpg)

(http://www.digifishmusic.com/public/images/TapersSection_RodeNT4-R44-56dB2.jpg)

IMO those are some beautiful looking noise graphs from a digi-noise perspective. Not a spike anywhere, only hiss and some low frequency rumble (very low level and recorded not digital). The same is true when you normalize or add any level of amplification to the digital recording. I would be genuinely interested to know what Doug is hearing?

digifish
 
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on June 13, 2008, 06:06:53 AM
How would you characterise digital noise vs preamp noise?  Maybe it would show up more in an averaged frequency response scan (if present, which like you I doubt) - though the noise distribution in your picture looks very even.  Maybe try some variations of the display and button illuminations to clinch the point.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: digifish_music on June 13, 2008, 06:09:34 AM
How would you characterise digital noise vs preamp noise?  Maybe it would show up more in an averaged frequency response scan (if present, which like you I doubt) - though the noise distribution in your picture looks very even.  Maybe try some variations of the display and button illuminations to clinch the point.

Digital noise usually looks like single frequency bands running through the signal, I will post an example from an R09. Give me a moment. OK I have one example below, this is what happens when you press an R09 up against a MixPre (below the spectrograph), this is just one example, sometimes the noise is intermittent or has multiple harmonics, but digital interference is always in harmonic bands (in my experience).

The noise I hear above is random hiss. The low frequency rumble is just that, rumble from the city/building/atmosphere.

(http://www.digifishmusic.com/public/images/TapersSection_R09-diginoise.jpg)

(http://www.digifishmusic.com/public/images/Freesound_Possum.jpg)

(http://www.digifishmusic.com/public/images/Freesound_Possum2.jpg)

digifish.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on June 13, 2008, 06:31:12 AM
I did get that 18kHz spike in one of my 'silence' tests but that could have been due to placing the external battery pack next to the mic - must retest....
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: digifish_music on June 13, 2008, 06:40:59 AM
I did get that 18kHz spike in one of my 'silence' tests but that could have been due to placing the external battery pack next to the mic - must retest....

Here's some more R09 'behaving badly' spectra :)

This is an R09HR vs R09 internal mic comparison another Taper (Powermonkey) previously posted, on the right you can clearly see the trademark R09 digi-noise vs the clean HR spectrograph.

(http://www.digifishmusic.com/public/images/R09vsR09HR-spectrum.jpg)

the lower one is interference from a digital camera on the R09

(http://www.digifishmusic.com/public/images/spectrogram.jpg)
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on June 13, 2008, 06:55:11 AM
Now that's noise!

I just did a quick retest with the Sennheiser MKH cardioid mic at full preamp volume, and waved the battery pack around - putting it right next to the mic you can see on the spectral display a faint diagonal line appears, otherwise nothing.  That could be due to RF interference stuff happening in the battery pack (multivoltage with electronics within) and the RF in the mic (wild guess).  But that apart, no evidence whatever of anything I'd describe as digital noise, and no significant other noise either.

I love how quick it is to fire up this little machine and run such a test!
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: digifish_music on June 13, 2008, 07:23:47 AM
Errm... sorry if I'm bothering you here, but my post seems to have been overlooked by many, so here iit is again, maybe some of you have thoughts on that issue. thanks.

I encountered a PROBLEM with my R-44 a few days ago when I recorded 4 tracks (44/24, 4xmono with 2x phantom, run with external power). 8 and a half minutes into the recording you can hear clicks/glitches or something like that. There was no clipping, and the sounds are not recorded, they're digital. Weird thing is, they're only on the first two tracks (the ones with phantom power switched on), for a duration of about ten seconds.

...

Any ideas, hobby electricians maybe?

If someone's interested, here's the part of the recording with the glitches (mixdown of the two phantom tracks):
http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/12/23/547356/glitch.mp3


My best guess is mobile phone noise, the image below is the part where I could hear ticking. It took me a while to realise that this wasn't part of the music. As you can see below I copied the second (clearer one), the top part of the image, back into the more noisy part of the track and you can see it's the same rhythm twice, has that mobile-phone kind of rhythm to me....

(http://www.digifishmusic.com/public/images/TapersSection_MysteryNoise.jpg)

digifish
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: sonidista on June 13, 2008, 07:45:12 AM

My best guess is mobile phone noise, the image below is the part where I could hear ticking. It took me a while to realise that this wasn't part of the music. As you can see below I copied the second (clearer one), the top part of the image, back into the more noisy part of the track and you can see it's the same rhythm twice, has that mobile-phone kind of rhythm to me....

digifish

thanks a lot for evaluating this digifish! It is mysterious indeed. But I am not sure if it can be mobile phone noise, since the space is underground and there is no signal at all down there. My guess is the weak electric system in the space. Before I got the R-44, I recorded with an MBox2 Pro and Laptop and whenever the guitarist stepped on his distortion the recording stopped!
And not to forget, this noise was only on the 2 tracks with 48V enabled, the other two recorded at the same time show no sign of this clicking at all... anyway I hope at least it's not the R-44 that produces this noise...
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: digifish_music on June 13, 2008, 07:53:41 AM


My best guess is mobile phone noise, the image below is the part where I could hear ticking. It took me a while to realise that this wasn't part of the music. As you can see below I copied the second (clearer one), the top part of the image, back into the more noisy part of the track and you can see it's the same rhythm twice, has that mobile-phone kind of rhythm to me....

digifish

thanks a lot for evaluating this digifish! It is a really weird thing. But I am not sure if it can be mobile phone noise, since the space is underground and there is no signal at all down there. My guess is the weak electric system in the space. Before I got the R-44, I recorded with an MBox2 Pro and Laptop and whenever the guitarist stepped on his distortion the recording stopped!
And not to forget, this noise was only on the 2 tracks with 48V enabled, the other two recorded at the same time show no sign of this clicking at all... anyway I hope at least it's not the R-44 that produces this noise...

I was thinking more noise from a mobile phone near your mics transmitting not the network itself. It would not be surprising the phantom mics would pick up the sound independent of the other channels you were using since phantom mics are sensitive beasties :)  What was plugged into the other two channels?

digifish
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: sonidista on June 13, 2008, 10:32:03 AM

I was thinking more noise from a mobile phone near your mics transmitting not the network itself. It would not be surprising the phantom mics would pick up the sound independent of the other channels you were using since phantom mics are sensitive beasties :)  What was plugged into the other two channels?

digifish

sounds sensible... other two channels were dynamic mics placed in the same room.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Gutbucket on June 13, 2008, 11:04:39 AM
Hey digifish,

What kind of critter is that in the photos you posted?  Impressive to be able to get so close without him bolting.. the power of food I suppose.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: digifish_music on June 13, 2008, 06:49:10 PM
Hey digifish,

What kind of critter is that in the photos you posted?  Impressive to be able to get so close without him bolting.. the power of food I suppose.

It's an Australian Brushtail possum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Brushtail_Possum). Yes always carry food if you are recording wildlife. This one came onto the balcony one night of a place I was staying in Tasmania on a field-recording expedition.

You can download the sample being recorded in those shots from freesound...

http://www.freesound.org/samplesViewSingle.php?id=53291
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on June 14, 2008, 10:28:37 AM
As noted in the Media forum I've been testing the R-44 with a basic grade Sandisk 4Gb card, rated class 2 I believe, and even writing 2 stereo files at 24/96 there's no problem as far as I can see.  Maybe a longer soak test is required.   This helps with the dilemma faced by heavy pro users, namely, that you might not be able to transfer and back up your recordings as fast as you are making them, so you might find that at least temporarily you'll need to archive the original memory cards.  And if low cost ones will do, then that's not such a big deal.  ($6AU per gigabyte for 8GB Sandisk, here, at best).
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: hypnotoad on June 14, 2008, 02:21:36 PM
Hey digifish,

What kind of critter is that in the photos you posted?  Impressive to be able to get so close without him bolting.. the power of food I suppose.

It's an Australian Brushtail possum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Brushtail_Possum). Yes always carry food if you are recording wildlife. This one came onto the balcony one night of a place I was staying in Tasmania on a field-recording expedition.

You can download the sample being recorded in those shots from freesound...

http://www.freesound.org/samplesViewSingle.php?id=53291

Those are some great shots, and he's quite possibly the last thing I thought I'd see in this thread. +t :)
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: kskreider on June 19, 2008, 02:45:04 PM
OK, I bit.  Anyone have any luck with the 16GB cards, or should I stick with an 8GB?

Maybe one of these two:

http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=10008683

or

http://www.supermediastore.com/adata-16gb-class-6-turbo-sdhc-sd-card.html

?
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: boa on June 19, 2008, 10:56:54 PM
OK, I bit.  Anyone have any luck with the 16GB cards, or should I stick with an 8GB?

Maybe one of these two:

http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=10008683

or

http://www.supermediastore.com/adata-16gb-class-6-turbo-sdhc-sd-card.html

?

I bought a Transcend 16gb @ class 6 and it failed with SD SLow errors on digital in.

I then bought 2 8gb Kingston class 2 and they work like magic recording in all the available formations.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: busterr on June 20, 2008, 12:10:43 AM
OK, I bit.  Anyone have any luck with the 16GB cards, or should I stick with an 8GB?

Maybe one of these two:

http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=10008683

or

http://www.supermediastore.com/adata-16gb-class-6-turbo-sdhc-sd-card.html

?

I have no idea if the Adata 16gb has been tested yet or not, but here's a link to one like the one you linked to for $54.99 w/ free shipping.

I've ordered a few things from this place after Newegg screwed me over on an order. Roughly the same prices as Newegg(some cheaper), very quick shipping, no problems whatsoever. FWIW I did grab a couple 8gb Adata class6 sdhc cards from them that are working great so far in the r-44...4ch digi+analog @ 24/48 stereox2.
It seems to me the Adata cards work well in pretty much every recorder out there, so it may be worth it for someone to check out.

http://www.chiefvalue.com/product-_-productdetails.cv_-_item--CE00153686010060

Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: kskreider on June 20, 2008, 01:56:50 AM
Thanks for the link.  I will roll the dice and try the A-DATA.  On the other hand, you probably do not want to know that Newegg and ChiefValue are one and the same.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on June 20, 2008, 09:42:14 AM
See http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,105391.0.html where I concluded that, on the face of it, a class two card should suffice for 24/96 on two stereo tracks, or indeed for high definition AVCHD video (and I have successfully tested both those scenarios).  Maybe it depends on precisely which class 2 card, though.  My feeling is that trying a class 2 card is a pretty inexpensive experiment, but meanwhile I've bought the most expensive class 6 cards on the market on the principle that my recordings and video are worth that once-off cost, even if over-the-top.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: BayTaynt3d on June 20, 2008, 11:22:06 AM
It's not just about writing data, transferring off your files also benefits from using class 6 cards.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: cybergaloot on June 20, 2008, 01:38:14 PM
Hey digifish,

What kind of critter is that in the photos you posted?  Impressive to be able to get so close without him bolting.. the power of food I suppose.

It's an Australian Brushtail possum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Brushtail_Possum). Yes always carry food if you are recording wildlife. This one came onto the balcony one night of a place I was staying in Tasmania on a field-recording expedition.

You can download the sample being recorded in those shots from freesound...

http://www.freesound.org/samplesViewSingle.php?id=53291

I'm glad he asked (and you answered). At first I thought that was one ugly cat. But compared to the possum's we get here in the deep south (USA), that thing is beautiful.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: leddy on June 20, 2008, 04:49:59 PM
Hi all.  I'm new here but I have been enjoying reading up on gear.

I am a current R4 owner.  I just placed an order for an R44.  My plan is to have two so I can link them. 

Thanks for all the great info.  I hope I can contribute useful things about the R44 soon.

Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: BayTaynt3d on June 20, 2008, 06:11:13 PM
Hi all.  I'm new here but I have been enjoying reading up on gear.

I am a current R4 owner.  I just placed an order for an R44.  My plan is to have two so I can link them. 

Thanks for all the great info.  I hope I can contribute useful things about the R44 soon.



As far as I know that is not possible (except for the old fashioned way, aka sync manually and adjust for drift). You can only sync two R44s (automatically).
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: leddy on June 20, 2008, 07:27:47 PM
Hi all.  I'm new here but I have been enjoying reading up on gear.

I am a current R4 owner.  I just placed an order for an R44.  My plan is to have two so I can link them. 

Thanks for all the great info.  I hope I can contribute useful things about the R44 soon.



As far as I know that is not possible (except for the old fashioned way, aka sync manually and adjust for drift). You can only sync two R44s (automatically).

Sorry, I mean get two R44's.  I'll sell my R4 if the R44 does what it should and buy a second R44.   :)
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on June 20, 2008, 08:18:40 PM
Quote
It's not just about writing data, transferring off your files also benefits from using class 6 cards.
Good point.  But that partly depends on whether you take the card out and use a card reader, which seems to be faster than transferring direct from the R-44.  Personally I'm avoiding putting the card in and out of different devices as that seems to be a data risk point.  I'm inclined to leave it in the R-44 and make some tea during the transfer.  Or read here, of course.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: digifish_music on June 20, 2008, 08:38:27 PM
Quote
Personally I'm avoiding putting the card in and out of different devices as that seems to be a data risk point.  I'm inclined to leave it in the R-44 and make some tea during the transfer.  Or read here, of course.

Personally I find it a pain to get the card out of the R44...it's in a difficult location to grab :(

digifish

Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: leehookem on June 21, 2008, 01:50:24 AM
I agree.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: NOLAfishwater on June 21, 2008, 10:57:11 AM
Quote
Personally I'm avoiding putting the card in and out of different devices as that seems to be a data risk point.  I'm inclined to leave it in the R-44 and make some tea during the transfer.  Or read here, of course.

Personally I find it a pain to get the card out of the R44...it's in a difficult location to grab :(

digifish



Well at least it is protected and I love the rubber seal.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Kindguy on June 21, 2008, 07:53:19 PM
Just joined the team. I'm pretty excited. My first 24bit recorder.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: digifish_music on June 21, 2008, 09:17:42 PM
Just joined the team. I'm pretty excited. My first 24bit recorder.

I am sure you will become great friends with it :)

Mine has been rock solid and making superb recordings from the stock pres, although I am still using a MixPre in front of it when I want to record beetles chewing wood at 200 feet.  ;D

digifish
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Kindguy on June 23, 2008, 04:22:47 AM
2 questions. Waiting on mine to arrive.  ;D

Can I record with mics > pre > channel 1 & 2, while running digital in from a 722 on channel 3 & 4?

Does anyone know if the r44 power cable tip is the same as the UA-5? That would be nice. I already have a few of them.

Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: digifish_music on June 23, 2008, 06:41:23 AM
2 questions. Waiting on mine to arrive.  ;D

Can I record with mics > pre > channel 1 & 2, while running digital in from a 722 on channel 3 & 4?


You will need to use channels 3 & 4 for the analog in as channels 1 & 2 are dedicated to the digital inputs when in Analog + Digital recording mode. The R44's Digital I/O is RCA S/PDIF and the 722 is S/PDIF compatible with RCA adapter, so I don't see why not.

got one of these?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Connector-high-quality-BNC-to-RCA.jpg

digifish
 
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Rick on June 23, 2008, 08:30:17 AM
Does anyone know if the r44 power cable tip is the same as the UA-5? That would be nice. I already have a few of them.

Yes its the same... adapter plug 'M'
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on June 23, 2008, 09:37:31 AM
Note that the R-44 has centre power pin negative.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: RobC on June 23, 2008, 12:01:38 PM
Note that the R-44 has centre power pin negative.

so is the UA-5 so you can use the cable from your UA-5 to run your new R-44 without doing anything.

Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Kindguy on June 23, 2008, 02:27:25 PM
2 questions. Waiting on mine to arrive.  ;D

Can I record with mics > pre > channel 1 & 2, while running digital in from a 722 on channel 3 & 4?


You will need to use channels 3 & 4 for the analog in as channels 1 & 2 are dedicated to the digital inputs when in Analog + Digital recording mode. The R44's Digital I/O is RCA S/PDIF and the 722 is S/PDIF compatible with RCA adapter, so I don't see why not.

got one of these?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Connector-high-quality-BNC-to-RCA.jpg

digifish
 

Nice! I do have that cable. Can't wait to run this. I think that's so cool, to be able to patch another rig while running mine on the same recorder.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Kindguy on June 23, 2008, 02:29:08 PM
Does anyone know if the r44 power cable tip is the same as the UA-5? That would be nice. I already have a few of them.

Yes its the same... adapter plug 'M'

Sweet this just keeps getting better & better.

T+'s around.

Jeff

Now I just need a SD card & I'm set.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Colin Liston on June 23, 2008, 03:24:42 PM

Now I just need a SD card & I'm set.

I just got a     8GB SDHC Class 6 Flash Card for $31 and free shipping from here:

http://shop.kingston.com/default.asp
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Kindguy on June 23, 2008, 03:35:09 PM

Now I just need a SD card & I'm set.

I just got a     8GB SDHC Class 6 Flash Card for $31 and free shipping from here:

http://shop.kingston.com/default.asp

Thank you sir! Ordering now.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Rick on June 23, 2008, 03:41:53 PM

Now I just need a SD card & I'm set.

I just got a     8GB SDHC Class 6 Flash Card for $31 and free shipping from here:

http://shop.kingston.com/default.asp

Thank you sir! Ordering now.

Not that I need it, but I can't find it ??? I only see $42.00
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Kindguy on June 23, 2008, 03:43:44 PM

Now I just need a SD card & I'm set.

I just got a     8GB SDHC Class 6 Flash Card for $31 and free shipping from here:

http://shop.kingston.com/default.asp

Thank you sir! Ordering now.

Not that I need it, but I can't find it ??? I only see $42.00

I didn't even see one for 42.00? It was like 80+
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Kindguy on June 23, 2008, 03:48:20 PM
Found the 42.00 with free 3 day shipping.

http://shop.kingston.com/PartsInfo.asp?ktcpartno=SD6/8GB

Going to roll with this for now.

Thanks everyone!
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Rick on June 23, 2008, 03:56:25 PM
Found the 42.00 with free 3 day shipping.

http://shop.kingston.com/PartsInfo.asp?ktcpartno=SD6/8GB

Going to roll with this for now.

Thanks everyone!

I think you can get it slightly cheaper @ newegg. I use a Transcend card which is $30.00
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Kindguy on June 23, 2008, 04:06:34 PM
This is from another post.

Quote
Here's a good deal available through 6/30: Zipzoomfly is selling the Patriot 16GB SDHC for $55.  Shipping is $7, so a total of $62. After a $10 mail in rebate, your cost is $52.    (I remember when a 1GB card cost more than $100!)

http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=10008683&ps=pn2

Not sure if this will work in the r44 or not. But it seems like a killer deal.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: leddy on June 24, 2008, 10:00:16 PM
Got my R44 today.  First impressions are that the preamps are a little more quiet than the R4.  Feels nice and solid, a little more so than the R4.  Other than that it seems about the same.  The ability to link another R44 is the selling point for me, so it looks like I will sell my R4 to purchase a 2nd R44.

I'll probably sell my Alesis HD24 as well since I almost never need more than 8 tracks.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: kskreider on June 25, 2008, 02:33:03 PM
I just bought this 16gb sdhc card (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0010Z28XG) and will report back on how it works.  I like that it comes with a tiny USB card reader that I can keep in my taping bag.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Rick on June 25, 2008, 02:41:08 PM
I just bought this 16gb sdhc card (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0010Z28XG) and will report back on how it works.  I like that it comes with a tiny USB card reader that I can keep in my taping bag.

Not sure you read this but hopefully you have better results...

Had a problem with Transcend 16Gb SDHC Class 6 cards...testing the unit with 4channels @ 48/24 with phantom enabled on all four channels got a sd card slow message....unit would not shutdown and had to remove batteries to power off.  Testing with a 8 gb Sandisk  proved ok....   Curious of what other are using for cards  (successfully)
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: kskreider on June 25, 2008, 02:43:32 PM
Eeks.  Well, I will give it a shot and if it does not work then I will go for another brand.  Thanks for the heads up!
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Kindguy on June 25, 2008, 04:09:11 PM
Got mine in today.  ;D

Wow the pics don't do the size of this justice. Much smaller than I thought it would be.

Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: kskreider on June 25, 2008, 04:36:44 PM
http://shop3.frys.com/product/5381518
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Rick on June 25, 2008, 04:39:24 PM
http://shop3.frys.com/product/5381518

I wonder if it works with the R-44
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: kskreider on June 25, 2008, 04:51:15 PM
I guess we'll find out, I just bought one.   ;D
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Kindguy on June 25, 2008, 05:33:48 PM
I guess we'll find out, I just bought one.   ;D

So did I.

But i got it here. http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=10008683&ps=pn2
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: BayTaynt3d on June 25, 2008, 09:23:38 PM
Got mine in today.  ;D

Wow the pics don't do the size of this justice. Much smaller than I thought it would be.



I will be joining this team soon, heh.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on June 25, 2008, 11:36:03 PM
Card problems?  Always format the card in the device before use. 
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: BayTaynt3d on June 26, 2008, 12:16:13 AM
Card problems?  Always format the card in the device before use. 

No doubt. I do that with all my flash-based recorders: audio, video, cameras, etc.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: leddy on June 26, 2008, 05:23:01 PM
Just ordered R44 number 2. 

Ditching all my other gear and going this route.  We'll see how well they sync up when it arrives.

I plugged in a Beyer M160 ribbon just to see if there was enough quiet gain.  For louder sources (music) it would be fine. 
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: airbladder on June 27, 2008, 09:05:25 AM
I just ordered mine from Oade with the concert mod.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: BayTaynt3d on June 27, 2008, 09:23:04 AM
I just ordered mine from Oade with the concert mod.

I ordered mine from Oade two days ago... Maybe I'm first, heh...
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: leehookem on June 27, 2008, 10:27:14 AM
nice to see he finished the mod.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: drewloo on June 27, 2008, 11:32:49 AM
Just put my order in.   :spin:
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Colin Liston on June 27, 2008, 11:47:25 AM

Mine just came in the mail.  Damn this thing is small.  Can't wait to try it out.  Outformation tomorrow night!
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: kskreider on June 27, 2008, 12:03:25 PM
According to UPS mine should arrive today  It just got here.  Thanks Scott!
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Rick on June 27, 2008, 12:58:07 PM
Just put my order in.   :spin:

Nice Drew!
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: drewloo on June 27, 2008, 02:17:54 PM
Just put my order in.   :spin:

Nice Drew!

We'll have to link-up when it gets here.  I wish I would have known you were looking for a mini-mp.  I almost pulled the trigger on that brand new one that was listed for $450 w/ zero bids on ebay that  got relisted.  I tried for another on Sunday night but it didn't meet the reserve.  I'm kind of glad I didn't get either one now. 
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: kskreider on June 27, 2008, 02:39:51 PM
Team R-44 (http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,106140.msg1417613.html#msg1417613)
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: hypnotoad on June 28, 2008, 03:09:34 PM
Just got this email from Doug this morning:

Quote
Hi !
 The Edirol R44 with the Concert MOD is up on the website. It can be found here :
http://www.oade.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=OBA&Category_Code=EDIR44-Concert
Supply is still a bit tight but more on on the way.
thanks so much ...Doug

Soooo tempting, just need to find a little extra cash.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: cybergaloot on June 28, 2008, 05:07:05 PM
Just got this email from Doug this morning:

Quote
Hi !
 The Edirol R44 with the Concert MOD is up on the website. It can be found here :
http://www.oade.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=OBA&Category_Code=EDIR44-Concert
Supply is still a bit tight but more on on the way.
thanks so much ...Doug

Soooo tempting, just need to find a little extra cash.

Just $914 dollar to go and I'll be buying one! I wonder if he'll discount if I ride up to Thomasville and pick it up? Seriously, this mod is only a few bucks more than buying a stock unit elsewhere so why go anywhere else?
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: digifish_music on June 28, 2008, 09:10:39 PM
I checked the Oade mod page for the R44 (http://www.oade.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=OBA&Product_Code=EDR44CMGND&Category_Code=EDIR44-Concert).

I am in no doubt that the internal mic-pres can be improved - from a random-noise/hiss perspective. For example, if I want to do any quietude recording with the R44 I need to use a MixPre in front of it. I previously posted the following recording, 10 ticks R44 max gain, then 10 ticks MixPre set to match this gain and the R44 at minimum gain to compensate, NT1-A mic...

Click here to download WAV file (3 Meg) (http://www.digifishmusic.com/public/sounds/R44-Internal_vs_MixPre.wav)

Noise of R44 vs MixPre mic preamps

(http://www.digifishmusic.com/public/images/R44-Internal_vs_MixPre.jpg)

However Doug at Oade notes on his site that there is 'display-noise'? ...

"Edirol R44 Concert  upgrade rebuilds the mic preamps using high speed,low noise and very low distortion op amps that dramatically improve detail and clarity. Improvements are also made to reduce the audible digital noise that contaminates the analog signal path with noise generated by the display."

...as I previously posted, I looked/listened carefully for any digital noise and couldn't find any:

---------------------------------------------------

OK, here is a Rode NT4 sitting in a vocal booth connected to an Edirol R44 running all but flat-out on the internal preamps...

R44 on internal batteries.
Chanels 1 & 2.
Phantom on.
Low-cut off.
Limiter off.
Display on (default brightness).
Preamp sensitivity (max) = -56 dB
Level = 12 O'Clock
24 bit @ 44.1 kHz

Here is the sound  (http://www.digifishmusic.com/public/sounds/TapersSection_RodeNT4-R44-56dB.wav)<- Click here to download the 10 second sample

(http://www.digifishmusic.com/public/images/TapersSection_RodeNT4-R44-56dB.jpg)

(http://www.digifishmusic.com/public/images/TapersSection_RodeNT4-R44-56dB2.jpg)

IMO those are some beautiful looking noise graphs from a digi-noise perspective. Not a spike anywhere, only hiss and some low frequency rumble (very low level and recorded not digital). The same is true when you normalize or add any level of amplification to the digital recording. I would be genuinely interested to know what Doug is hearing?

In case you are wondering what digital noise may look like, in my experience, digital noise usually appears as spikes in frequency histograms or lines in spectrograms...see this R09 plot picture

(http://www.digifishmusic.com/public/images/TapersSection_R09_diginoise.jpg)

(http://www.digifishmusic.com/public/images/TapersSection_R09-diginoise.jpg)

or even more dramatically, here's device-to-device interference (digital camera on R09)

(http://www.digifishmusic.com/public/images/spectrogram.jpg)

digifish



Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on June 29, 2008, 12:00:20 AM
Good question.

When it comes to noise, there's the first law of noise reduction which states something like "noise reduction software gets very good results on a recording which has very little noise in the first place".  I don't doubt that I could get some stunning low noise results from the R-44 if I ran it through Audition's NR process, as it would be modifying the file hardly at all.  Heh, might give that a try...
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on June 29, 2008, 01:11:04 AM
And tried it I did, but the noise level is too low for Audition to work on to any significant extent.   Simply not worth doing in the context of a music recording.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: flipp on June 29, 2008, 02:33:08 AM
Does anyone have both an R44 and a FR2LE they could take a pic of so I can get a size comparison? None of my local musc stores have one in stock and I don't want to drive the 50 miles to the nearest place I could find that has an R44 in stock. Call me lazy. If a pic has been posted elsewhere, on or off TS, can you post a link?

TIA
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on June 29, 2008, 03:32:56 AM
A valid noise comparison between the FR2-LE and the R-44 would be interesting, seeing how the FR2-LE is considered to have a quieter-than-most mic preamp.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: digifish_music on June 29, 2008, 06:23:59 AM
BTW: Here is an R44 with the internal mic-pres cranked (-56 dB Max) sucking on a MixPre with the gain turned down to minimum (I suppose this will present a silent load?)

(http://www.digifishmusic.com/public/images/TapersSection_R44-56dB_MicPre.png)

digifish
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: flintstone on June 29, 2008, 11:27:28 AM
No side by side photos to show size, but the
FR-2LE is smaller in each dimension and 45% lighter.
This is what you might predict knowing one is a 2 channel
recorder and the other is 4 channel.

Fostex FR-2LE
57 x 132 x 206 mm
900 g

Edirol R-44
61 x 157 x 183 mm
1300 g

The cheapest price I could find this morning for the FR-2LE
is $450 from a reliable eBay seller named "new-items-only." 

Audiomidi.com offers the the R-44 for $795 with free shipping.

Flintstone
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: flipp on June 29, 2008, 12:49:55 PM
That gives me a good idea. 1/8 taller, 1 inch narrower but also ~1inch deeper front to back; and about a pound heavier. Not sure I would ever do a four channel mix but one recorder would be easier on the back and more compact than the two complete rigs I've been using lately (FR2w + a stock LE). Could even go back to a smaller bag. More what if I change to that will probably go no further than wishful thinking.


No side by side photos to show size, but the
FR-2LE is smaller in each dimension and 45% lighter.
This is what you might predict knowing one is a 2 channel
recorder and the other is 4 channel.

Fostex FR-2LE
57 x 132 x 206 mm
900 g

Edirol R-44
61 x 157 x 183 mm
1300 g

The cheapest price I could find this morning for the FR-2LE
is $450 from a reliable eBay seller named "new-items-only." 

Audiomidi.com offers the the R-44 for $795 with free shipping.

Flintstone

Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: NOLAfishwater on June 30, 2008, 10:49:56 PM
o.k. so I am going to try something new at some point this week. Here is goes:


mono x 4 or 4ch x 1?
channels 
1 - subcard @ lip of stage
2 - subcard @ lip of stage
3 - spot mic on vocal monitor for singer
4 - mono SBD feed

anyone know? I looked in the R-44 user guide and it did't distinguish between the two settings
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: cybergaloot on June 30, 2008, 11:02:32 PM
o.k. so I am going to try something new at some point this week. Here is goes:


mono x 4 or 4ch x 1?
channels 
1 - subcard @ lip of stage
2 - subcard @ lip of stage
3 - spot mic on vocal monitor for singer
4 - mono SBD feed

anyone know? I looked in the R-44 user guide and it did't distinguish between the two settings

I'd be interested in the outcome. That setup might work good for the club I record in most.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on July 01, 2008, 05:23:32 AM
What format you use depends on what you will do with it later.  A 4 channel file will open in some software and not others.  I'd be inclined to stick with 2 stereo or 4 mono, which will open in anything.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Colin Liston on July 01, 2008, 08:16:49 AM
Does anyone have both an R44 and a FR2LE they could take a pic of so I can get a size comparison? None of my local musc stores have one in stock and I don't want to drive the 50 miles to the nearest place I could find that has an R44 in stock. Call me lazy. If a pic has been posted elsewhere, on or off TS, can you post a link?

TIA

Here you go:
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: digifish_music on July 01, 2008, 08:31:12 AM
Does anyone have both an R44 and a FR2LE they could take a pic of so I can get a size comparison? None of my local musc stores have one in stock and I don't want to drive the 50 miles to the nearest place I could find that has an R44 in stock. Call me lazy. If a pic has been posted elsewhere, on or off TS, can you post a link?

TIA

Here you go:


Nice. Can you post a comparison of the R44 and FR2LE mic-pres with the same mics at close to max/matched input level? Ticking wall-clocks make good audio-standard subjects.

digifish
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: flipp on July 01, 2008, 08:48:17 AM
Does anyone have both an R44 and a FR2LE they could take a pic of so I can get a size comparison? None of my local musc stores have one in stock and I don't want to drive the 50 miles to the nearest place I could find that has an R44 in stock. Call me lazy. If a pic has been posted elsewhere, on or off TS, can you post a link?

TIA

Here you go:



Thanks, looks like the R44 would even fit in a Nova 1.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Colin Liston on July 01, 2008, 09:57:38 AM


Nice. Can you post a comparison of the R44 and FR2LE mic-pres with the same mics at close to max/matched input level? Ticking wall-clocks make good audio-standard subjects.

digifish

I'll try this later tonight.  Although does anyone have a ticking wall clock any more? 
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: NOLAfishwater on July 01, 2008, 10:07:20 AM
pardon my ignorance, but if I record in mono it will only show up as a left or right channel correct. which means that I would have to mix all 4 channels together and then duplicate the mono mix into stereo.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: darkfunk on July 01, 2008, 10:33:06 AM
I have also encountered the dreaded "SD Slow" error / crash.  I was running 24/44.1, digital in, 2xstereo mode.  The card I was using was a "Patriot 8GB SDHC class 6 (http://tinyurl.com/2dfjw8)", which I got from Newegg.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: kskreider on July 01, 2008, 10:47:29 AM
Weird.  I just ran the same 8GB Patriot card all day at 24/48.  I suppose I should repeat that test a couple of times.  I am also running the Patriot 16GB card through tests as I type. 
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: NOLAfishwater on July 01, 2008, 10:54:53 AM
when I had researched what cards were verified as compatible by Edirol, they all had one thing in common: Class 4. That is why I stuck to class 4's when I was searching. So far I haven't had any trouble with my 16GB PNY card.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on July 01, 2008, 07:15:41 PM
Quote
pardon my ignorance, but if I record in mono it will only show up as a left or right channel correct. which means that I would have to mix all 4 channels together and then duplicate the mono mix into stereo.
Pressing the headphone control in will cycle through the monitoring options.  Once you have the recorded audio in your DAW you should be able to do what you like with it in terms of placement (panning) of mono channels within a stereo soundfield.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: kskreider on July 01, 2008, 07:27:07 PM
OK, something goofy I noticed in my limited amount of tests.  I ran tests with dig+ana at 2 x stereo going 24/48.  SPDIF in and my analog going in to channels 3 + 4.  Everything worked dandy.

I then tried to run some tests at 24/96 1 x stereo analog and got no signal.  I was baffled.  I was sure that my recorder was dead and in an act of desperation I moved the XLRs to channels 1 + 2 and got a signal.  Why 3+4 for 2 x stereo and 1+2 for 1 x stereo?
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: BayTaynt3d on July 01, 2008, 08:40:58 PM
Straight from the source regarding my Oade-modded R44:

Quote from: Doug Oade
Except for me, you are the first to get/use one. The other orders will go out over the next few days. No one ordered more than 2 day air so you will actually have it in your hands first. I did not expect to sell so many so fast and Edirol ran out, so there will not be more than 8 of them in the field for the next few weeks.

Let the games begin...
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on July 01, 2008, 08:43:15 PM
First stereo pair goes to 1/2, second to 3/4.  First mono to 1, second to 2, third to 3, fourth to 4.  Seems logical to me.  Anyway, the display tells you which channels are active.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: kskreider on July 01, 2008, 09:40:51 PM
First stereo pair goes to 1/2, second to 3/4.  First mono to 1, second to 2, third to 3, fourth to 4.  Seems logical to me.  Anyway, the display tells you which channels are active.

You are right it does make sense now.  Sometimes you just gotta type it out loud.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Kindguy on July 02, 2008, 04:19:57 AM
Anyone using this to power yours?

Tekkeon MP3300 Batteries

http://www.tekkeon.com/site/products-mypowerall.php
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on July 02, 2008, 05:34:56 AM
Looks very similar to the Tevion device I've been using very successfully.  Search the forum for that name for more details.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: vegas06 on July 02, 2008, 04:00:46 PM
when I had researched what cards were verified as compatible by Edirol, they all had one thing in common: Class 4. That is why I stuck to class 4's when I was searching. So far I haven't had any trouble with my 16GB PNY card.
Is there a list on the Edirol site?
I only see an old one for verified cards for the R09.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: kskreider on July 02, 2008, 04:13:42 PM
when I had researched what cards were verified as compatible by Edirol, they all had one thing in common: Class 4. That is why I stuck to class 4's when I was searching. So far I haven't had any trouble with my 16GB PNY card.
Is there a list on the Edirol site?
I only see an old one for verified cards for the R09.

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,106140.msg1417613.html#msg1417613
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Rick on July 02, 2008, 04:21:30 PM
when I had researched what cards were verified as compatible by Edirol, they all had one thing in common: Class 4. That is why I stuck to class 4's when I was searching. So far I haven't had any trouble with my 16GB PNY card.
Is there a list on the Edirol site?
I only see an old one for verified cards for the R09.

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,106140.msg1417613.html#msg1417613

Short list of cards 16GB+ from Edirol


Hello;

Our team in Japan has verified that the following high capacity cards
will work in the R-44:
Panasonic RP-SDM16GK1K,         16GB  OK
Panasonic RP-SDV16GK1K,         16GB  OK
TOSHIBA SD-HC032GT4,            32GB  OK
TOSHIBA SD-HC016GT4,            16GB  OK

- Ted Rosen
Roland Systems Group

Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: leddy on July 02, 2008, 05:52:54 PM
I received R44 number 2 today.  My main concern was how well they sync up. 

Plugging identical mics in each unit, I recorded some hand claps.  The claps were just over 4 milliseconds apart when I examined them in Wavelab.   

Obviously, you would be careful to keep pairs of mics within the same unit.  I think I'll also record some claps or snare hits at the start of a file, and maybe at the end to check drift.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on July 02, 2008, 06:45:30 PM
The sync provision is not so much to make them start dead together but to keep them together, according to the manual.  So you would have to manually line the two up, but then they should stay locked together for an indefinite period.  The only way to test is to do a start handclap then further ones every (say) five mins for an hour, and look at that.  Banging two bits of wood together might give a sharper transient or use a dog clicker.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: BayTaynt3d on July 02, 2008, 08:58:58 PM
The sync provision is not so much to make them start dead together but to keep them together, according to the manual.  So you would have to manually line the two up, but then they should stay locked together for an indefinite period.  The only way to test is to do a start handclap then further ones every (say) five mins for an hour, and look at that.  Banging two bits of wood together might give a sharper transient or use a dog clicker.

What he said. My understanding is that it is known that they won't start/stop completely synced, the more important question is drift. Initial sync will be easy to fix in post, especially if you know you need to (since you can add a clap if you want or other slate-like device). I'd like to run this test personally: Start both machines recording, add a slate (hand clap, clapper board), let it roll for an hour, then add another slate clap. Then in your DAW, sync up the first slate, and then see how far (if any) the tail slates moved (or didn't). That's the real test I'd like to know the result of because if the only thing that sync cable does is somewhat sync the pressing of stop/record but isn't syncing word clocks at all, then it's pointless since you can do that manually right now with any two recorders. However, if they keep sync, then that's a major plus. I've been dying to know that ever since I saw that you can link two decks together. Something tells me we'll find out soon enough.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: leddy on July 02, 2008, 10:16:27 PM
The sync provision is not so much to make them start dead together but to keep them together, according to the manual.  So you would have to manually line the two up, but then they should stay locked together for an indefinite period.  The only way to test is to do a start handclap then further ones every (say) five mins for an hour, and look at that.  Banging two bits of wood together might give a sharper transient or use a dog clicker.

What he said. My understanding is that it is known that they won't start/stop completely synced, the more important question is drift. Initial sync will be easy to fix in post, especially if you know you need to (since you can add a clap if you want or other slate-like device). I'd like to run this test personally: Start both machines recording, add a slate (hand clap, clapper board), let it roll for an hour, then add another slate clap. Then in your DAW, sync up the first slate, and then see how far (if any) the tail slates moved (or didn't). That's the real test I'd like to know the result of because if the only thing that sync cable does is somewhat sync the pressing of stop/record but isn't syncing word clocks at all, then it's pointless since you can do that manually right now with any two recorders. However, if they keep sync, then that's a major plus. I've been dying to know that ever since I saw that you can link two decks together. Something tells me we'll find out soon enough.

I should have time tomorrow to do it. 
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: penguin on July 03, 2008, 12:08:01 PM
I received R44 number 2 today.  My main concern was how well they sync up. 

Plugging identical mics in each unit, I recorded some hand claps.  The claps were just over 4 milliseconds apart when I examined them in Wavelab.   

Obviously, you would be careful to keep pairs of mics within the same unit.  I think I'll also record some claps or snare hits at the start of a file, and maybe at the end to check drift.

I've been using my two R-44s in slave mode for a few of rehearsals and one gig at a bowling alley. For the rehearsals the runtime has been about 3 hours, and for the gig it was two three hour sessions. I've found that if you start the two from a dead stop (just hitting 'record'), the slave more often than not will start milliseconds after the master, which is easily synced in post production. It seems if you have the two units on standby (pause and record) and then hit record from there, the slave seems to start in better sync with the master.

With regards to drifting, I haven't had a problem with that during the initial recordings at all. All 8 tracks lined up beautifully in Logic. But there did seem to be some out of sync stuff happening later. See, after putting all the files in Logic and mixing, I decided I wanted to redo some keyboards on one particular song cuz I choked during the live performance. So what I did was bounce down the initial tracks to an mp3 and import to iTunes and then into my iPod. I hooked up my keyboards to the R-44 and rerecorded the keyboard parts while playing the bounced iPod song as a guide. (I didn't use my Duet to record straight into Logic because it made the keyboards sound too different). After I finished, I downloaded the file and popped it into Logic. I lined it up with the other original gig files, but as the song went on the new keyboard tracks started lagging farther and farther behind. At the end of the song the lag was quite noticable. Perhaps it could have been me, but I *really* don't think I would have played those rerecorded parts in such a progressively slower fashion like that without noticing it. Anyways, I had to do a bit of trimming sections and move them forward to match up, no major trauma. But I wonder what was the cause of the progressive lagging? One thing that I am thinking about is that I did use the same sample/bit rate that I used during the initial recording (24/48), but I during the initial recording I used a Sandisk 16GB Class 4 card and during the rerecording I used a Panasonic 8GB Class 6 card. Could the different class speeds have something to do with it? Or maybe it was the bounced file, which went from 48 to 44.1 at some point? Hmmmmmm.

Anyways, just my observations.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on July 03, 2008, 09:39:02 PM
The mp3 playback on the iPod would certainly give rise to sync errors.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Gutbucket on July 04, 2008, 01:09:43 PM
When I run my twin R-09's, I manually sync the start by hitting play (from rec/pause mode) on both simultaneously.   I am amazed at how close they stay in sync, drift-wise.  They are so close that I cannot hear any drift over a 2 hour file when playing back from both units.  Don't have my DAW software loaded currently so I haven't looked to see how close they really are.  Just sayin'.

Thinking about it now, I suppose I should try swapping cards between recorders, then playing back the same files and see if they still stay in sync.  That should exaggerate any differences between the clocks rather than compensating for them.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: BayTaynt3d on July 04, 2008, 01:28:56 PM
Sometimes "really close" is actually worse cause that's when phasing can start getting all crazy on you, heh.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Gutbucket on July 04, 2008, 01:49:43 PM
Truth. 

I should add that I'm not mixing the two sources so the possible (probable?) phase bugaboos aren't an issue. I'm just playing them back through separate speakers - they only mix in the air.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: BayTaynt3d on July 05, 2008, 02:20:55 PM
Got the Oade unit in the mail two days ago. So far, so good. This thing is sweet.

Haven't used it in the field yet, but I made two battery test runs and got about 2:50 total each time on a set of RatShak rechargeable AAs. I formatted the card each time before starting the recording, and ran with all four phantom power channels on (mics were attached). That's not bad. Not sure I'll run with the DVD battery or not. A second set of AAs would be a lot smaller than hauling a DVD battery. That said, the DVD battery must last forever with this thing (haven't tested that, won't bother, heh).

Also, for the record, it seemlessly split at 2 gigs for both tests, and it also saved the file both times before shutting down while running low on AA battery power. I've been using a class 6 Transcend 8 gig card, and didn't have a problem running at 2xStereo 24/44.1.

The other thing that was interesting was I guess I have to choose "Adapter" for the power supply when using my DVD battery for some reason? Otherwise it just says "low batt" and turns off. I guess it just barely ins't putting out enough voltage or something? Seems odd considering the unit runs just fine when set to "Adapter" mode. Maybe it doesn't matter. Seems like if it did register though at 9v, then the battery meter would be active while running on DVD power. That doesn't really matter though cause the DVD batt has it's own meter. Anyway, I just wonder if I might need a new external battery? Anyone having this same experience?
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on July 05, 2008, 06:24:43 PM
The voltage you set for external battery is the voltage that the battery goes down to when it is flat - the "terminal voltage" I think the manual calls it.  So if you set it to 9 volts with a 9 volt battery (which when fully charged might slightly exceed that, but not for long) then the R-44 will consider it flat the moment it heads down to that voltage.  You can only work out the correct figure by trial and error, or measurement of your external battery voltage when it is almost flat.  In fact, given that the R-44 asks for 9 volts minimum, using a 9 volt nominal battery might underpower it when the battery discharges a bit.  Again, simply something you'd need to try.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: BayTaynt3d on July 06, 2008, 12:45:52 AM
The voltage you set for external battery is the voltage that the battery goes down to when it is flat - the "terminal voltage" I think the manual calls it.  So if you set it to 9 volts with a 9 volt battery (which when fully charged might slightly exceed that, but not for long) then the R-44 will consider it flat the moment it heads down to that voltage.  You can only work out the correct figure by trial and error, or measurement of your external battery voltage when it is almost flat.  In fact, given that the R-44 asks for 9 volts minimum, using a 9 volt nominal battery might underpower it when the battery discharges a bit.  Again, simply something you'd need to try.

That's what I figured, and what I was a little worried about (that a 9v battery is just barely good enough). The batts powered the R4 no problem for hours and hours though, so even though this is a different unit, seems so similar that I'd be surprised if these batts didn't work just as good for the R44. Interesting...
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: RobC on July 06, 2008, 05:09:56 AM
I ran my R-44 with a 9v 5400mAh Lithium Ion battery ("walmart style DVD battery) with no problems at a festival 2 weeks ago.
I did have to set to "Adapter" for it to work.  I got a good amount of recording time off of a fully charged battery.   I did have 4 fully charged AAs inside it too,  that way if the external battery does get too low it will switch to the internal batteries.

I also ran it with a 12v SLA and still had to set it to "Adapter"  when i had it set to 12v i got the low battery warning right away.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on July 08, 2008, 06:16:33 AM
About R-44 markers:-

They seem to be somewhat non-standard when it comes to viewing them in DAW software.  They way they work seems to be that every R-44 file contains markers 0 to 99, all at zero time, or possibly at some negative times.  When you press the "mark" button, the first mark is given a real time.  However, Adobe Audition doesn't see them as normal wave file cues (well, it does, but in rather garbled fashion).  However, Wavosaur (tiny free audio editor) does see them.

Meanwhile, the next version of Reaper ($50 very fully featured DAW) can show cues in wave files, and optionally create timeline markers from those cues.

I've found that if I open an R-44 file in Wavosaur, then create new markers alongside the original ones (the work of a moment, and you can place them better than you did at the concert on the fly) and save, Reaper's next version will then see them.  You only need to see them in one file from a multitrack set of course.  And you can get them into Reaper's timeline by shortening the left edge of the file by a tiny amount, so the stack of unused ones doesn't show, then use the command to copy the rest onto the timeline.

Saves having to hunt through a long concert working out where each song started.

Alternative strategy, if you have pre-recording enabled, is to press stop in applause between songs, and immediately press record.  That will create a new set of files with only a few milliseconds of lost material, as the pre-record buffer starts filling as soon as you pressed stop.  So in your DAW you see each song as a separate set of files.  But check at home whether yours is as gapless as mine when used that way.

Meanwhile I've emailed Edirol about the flakiness of their markers and I believe they are looking into it.  Let's hope for a firmware upgrade to fix this issue in due course.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: BayTaynt3d on July 08, 2008, 10:40:25 AM
FWIW, the markers in the R4 and R4 Pro were the same way, I just don't bother with them at all as I prefer to do my tracking in CDWave (99% of the time I don't stick with my deck the whole show to track in real time, plus you probably have to fine tune them anyway, you don't have the modify the original file, I can save the cue sheet for later reference, and guarenteed no SBEs). But it'd be sweet if the markers showed in my NLE, so don't get me wrong, I'd be stoked if they did.

And by the way, for all you new R44 owners out there, I've touted this before, but I'll say it again, which is that the laptop locking hole is not to be ignored or forgotten. Even if you only lock the deck to your stand, the odds just got that much lower that someone is going to walk away with the rig -- and more so if you can get the deck, string through the stand, and lock it to something. Love that feature. Obviously not needed for every show, but the piece of mind for other shows rules.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: cybergaloot on July 08, 2008, 01:47:07 PM
And by the way, for all you new R44 owners out there, I've touted this before, but I'll say it again, which is that the laptop locking hole is not to be ignored or forgotten.

AKA the Kensington Slot. They own the patent for it.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on July 08, 2008, 08:38:31 PM
Look out also for those little thingys which if moved give out a loud alarm sound - put one on top of your equipment or on your bag if you put it down, and if anyone tries to move anything beneath it, you'll hear (depending on how loud the concert is!).  Another thing I do at almost all times is to have a decent size releasable cable tie about me.  If you're in a cafe or whatever you can quickly tie the handle of your bag to a chair leg or whatever, to slow down any attempt to snatch it.  Or link together the handles of several bags to make it too unwieldy to grab the lot in a hurry.

The worst case I can recall of concert hall theft happened at London's Wigmore Hall, about the most respectable place on the planet, where Victoria de Los Angeles had a quarter of a million pounds of jewels stolen from the dressing room right behind the stage during a rehearsal when the hall was closed to the public.  Stuff happens anywhere!
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: BayTaynt3d on July 09, 2008, 10:28:41 PM
Loud alarms aren't good on recordings, lol, or maybe? Heh...

But seriously, locking is the bomb for certain situations (when flying solo in particular). And I do know it could still be stolen, it's just the odds go way down.  ;)
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: cybergaloot on July 09, 2008, 10:50:28 PM
It seems like I've read more stories of rigs being stolen/lost on the way to and from shows than when the show is actually going on. But the idea of using anything to keep people from just grabbing something and running seems like a good idea to me, even if it is just a cheap plastic strap. Cheap insurance!

I doubt many people go to shows with the idea of stealing a rig, but between alcohol (etc) and the excitement of the moment, some people just lose their heads.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: BayTaynt3d on July 09, 2008, 11:24:14 PM
Just for the record, mine ain't plastic, it's a small metal cable.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on July 10, 2008, 12:53:55 AM
They say that the essence of security is to make your property just a bit harder to take than your neighbour's.  So sometimes something that will impose a few moment's delay on an attempted theft is enough to encourage the, er, person to go to the next guy's gear.

Of course if you're a wimp and he's built like a brick privy, yours may still look more attractive.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: BayTaynt3d on July 10, 2008, 10:29:17 AM
Anyone have any case recommendations yet. I have large bags already, but I'm talking about something small when you need to be ultra-portable, or for times when you want a little protection around the unit when the unit is in another bigger bag with a bunch of other crap.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: datbrad on July 10, 2008, 11:15:22 AM
I don't think I have ever known a taper that has had anything taken from him while at a show with his rig set up. I have heard stories of stuff taken from hotel rooms that was left out in view, as well as stuff accidently left behind in train cars, cabs, etc. that was lost to the "finders-keepers" mindset.

I do recall being told to watch my gear once by a local taper when I recorded at the Knitting Factory in NY. He told me that it has happened to tapers in NYC before, so I guess it all depends on where you tape.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: drewloo on July 10, 2008, 12:04:20 PM
Ran the Oade mod R-44 last night at a Los Lonely Boys show.  The mix wasn't that great, vocals were a bit too loud.  The TLs weren't split very far at all, like maybe 10".  Here are a couple of short samples:

mod r44 w/ mc930s  http://www.mediafire.com/?kyc18dmmewm

mod r44 w/ TLs omni http://www.mediafire.com/?fxnne4zgctg

Leehookem is going to use the mod r-44 & do a sbd/mic matrix tomorrow night of Topaz.  I'm sure he'll have something to check out from that shortly thereafter. 
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: kskreider on July 10, 2008, 12:08:13 PM
Anyone have any case recommendations yet. I have large bags already, but I'm talking about something small when you need to be ultra-portable, or for times when you want a little protection around the unit when the unit is in another bigger bag with a bunch of other crap.

Bill, I think that someone posted a link for the Wendt mixer bag and said that it fits perfectly.  I found that it fits "OK" in a PortaBrace RM-Multi with my DVD battery in the smaller of the two pockets.  If I can remember to do so I will take a picture and post it.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/387298-REG/Wendt_X3BAG_X3_Audio_Mixer_Bag.html
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Gutbucket on July 10, 2008, 04:35:13 PM
Ran the Oade mod R-44 last night at a Los Lonely Boys show.  The mix wasn't that great, vocals were a bit too loud.  The TLs weren't split very far at all, like maybe 10".  Here are a couple of short samples:

So how do you like the mod? Does Doug have plans to offer any of the other r-4/pro type mods in the future or does the R-44 limit what can be done in there? Sooner or latter I'm gonna crack and buy one.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Rick on July 10, 2008, 04:50:19 PM
Anyone have any case recommendations yet. I have large bags already, but I'm talking about something small when you need to be ultra-portable, or for times when you want a little protection around the unit when the unit is in another bigger bag with a bunch of other crap.

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,106140.msg1426524.html#msg1426524
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: drewloo on July 10, 2008, 06:40:42 PM
So how do you like the mod? Does Doug have plans to offer any of the other r-4/pro type mods in the future or does the R-44 limit what can be done in there? Sooner or latter I'm gonna crack and buy one.

No real opinion of it yet.   I'll reserve judgment until I get a show that doesn't generally sound like @ss.  Love the unit itself, though.

Doug mentioned that he might come up w/ a high-gain mod for the ambient/nature recordists. 
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: leehookem on July 10, 2008, 08:32:47 PM
Anyone have any case recommendations yet. I have large bags already, but I'm talking about something small when you need to be ultra-portable, or for times when you want a little protection around the unit when the unit is in another bigger bag with a bunch of other crap.

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,106140.msg1426524.html#msg1426524

tempted just to place an order and send it directly to them!  I wonder how much of a discount?  Seems like free would be appropriate. ;)
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on July 11, 2008, 12:51:02 AM
Quote
So how do you like the mod?
What we need to evaluate the mod is for someone to compare one with the mod and one without the mod side by side using the same mics recording the same material.  It would be great if anyone could do that, so that there's a level playing field basis for comparison.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: BayTaynt3d on July 11, 2008, 01:52:00 AM
I know this has been discussed a little previously, but I REALLY, REALLY would like to run off of rechargeable AAs for most of my gigs if possible. I've got the DVD batt working great, but if I could ditch that, plus the switch from R4+DVD to R44 with no DVD, I'd be one happy camper.

So, anyone else care to share runtimes of off AAs? I've been getting 2:40 pretty regularly, but I just realized mine are 1500 mah, and I see there are ones as high as 2900 mah? I used my AAs for something non-critical, so I think now I might upgrade my AAs in the hopes of that being my R44 powering solution most of the time.

Love this thing more by the day, heh...
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on July 11, 2008, 04:26:24 AM
I posted my runtime in the other thread I think and now I can't remember what it was...  anyway, with 2650 capacity batteries there can't be many shows where there would no chance at all to do a quick swap from one set to another (being sure to shut down properly first...!).  Actually I find the batteries a bit hard to whip out quickly - a piece of ribbon under the first set loaded at home might help to yank them out in one go.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: leehookem on July 11, 2008, 10:44:54 AM
there are 3 of us here in Austin that could put together a comp.  Rick (stock) and Drew (Oade mod) both have the recorders.  Larry and I have the same mics (AKG 483's).  We just need to figure out a show we can all make if to.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: BayTaynt3d on July 11, 2008, 10:47:27 AM
I posted my runtime in the other thread I think and now I can't remember what it was...  anyway, with 2650 capacity batteries there can't be many shows where there would no chance at all to do a quick swap from one set to another (being sure to shut down properly first...!).  Actually I find the batteries a bit hard to whip out quickly - a piece of ribbon under the first set loaded at home might help to yank them out in one go.

I saw that earlier but was surprised that your runtime didn't seem that much better than mine despite the fact my mah is much lower...
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Rick on July 11, 2008, 10:55:47 AM
there are 3 of us here in Austin that could put together a comp.  Rick (stock) and Drew (Oade mod) both have the recorders.  Larry and I have the same mics (AKG 483's).  We just need to figure out a show we can all make if to.

Drew and I have the same mics (MC930) too.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: leehookem on July 11, 2008, 11:37:46 AM
oh yeah...
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: cfox on July 11, 2008, 12:21:16 PM

So how do you like the mod? Does Doug have plans to offer any of the other r-4/pro type mods in the future or does the R-44 limit what can be done in there?

I have yet to hear a "mod" that makes the unit sound decent...
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Scooter on July 11, 2008, 12:47:20 PM
wow, thanks for your optimism  ::)
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: datbrad on July 11, 2008, 02:48:25 PM

So how do you like the mod? Does Doug have plans to offer any of the other r-4/pro type mods in the future or does the R-44 limit what can be done in there?

I have yet to hear a "mod" that makes the unit sound decent...

Charles, You really think so? I was toying with the idea getting one to play with SBD/matrix recordings whenever you, Craig, or Derek were not in the mix with your 744s. The thing looks cool, and it's a nice small footprint.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Kindguy on July 11, 2008, 03:04:05 PM
Just curious Charles does a 7xx sound decent on it's own?

I've yet to hear a modded r44. I'll always run a pre in front of any recorder I run.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on July 11, 2008, 06:59:36 PM
Running time would depend on phantom current of the particular mics in use I suspect.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on July 12, 2008, 09:53:06 AM
Incorrect report deleted by poster.  Oops.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: leehookem on July 12, 2008, 08:02:22 PM
here is my Topaz reording from last night.  50/50 Matrix

http://www.archive.org/details/Topaz2008-07-11.flac16
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Rick on July 12, 2008, 10:34:03 PM
here is my Topaz reording from last night.  50/50 Matrix

http://www.archive.org/details/Topaz2008-07-11.flac16

Sounds good Lee!
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on July 12, 2008, 11:34:42 PM
Call me stupid - but when late last night I was testing whether the R-44 does bit-perfect digital input, and it was coming out not at all right, I had the MS effect on...

From which first of all we can see that effects will affect the digital input, which is worth knowing.

Second, the digital level controls do not affect the digital input, which is also worth knowing (and of course that's the way it should be).

Third - and most important - when I record one minute from a CD into the R-44 via spdif, then rip that CD into my DAW and invert it against the R-44, I get silence - the spdif recording is bit-accurate.

For proof here's the readout from Audition for the mixdown of the two files, one inverted against the other -

   Left   Right
Min Sample Value:   0   0
Max Sample Value:   0   0
Peak Amplitude:   -inf dB   -inf dB
Possibly Clipped:   0   0
DC Offset:   0    0
Minimum RMS Power:   -inf dB   -inf dB
Maximum RMS Power:   -inf dB   -inf dB
Average RMS Power:   -inf dB   -inf dB
Total RMS Power:   -inf dB   -inf dB
Actual Bit Depth:   float

Using RMS Window of 50 ms

Eureka!  Sorry for the scare last night.  Never do stuff late.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Rick on July 13, 2008, 10:55:45 AM
Call me stupid - but when late last night I was testing whether the R-44 does bit-perfect digital input, and it was coming out not at all right, I had the MS effect on...

From which first of all we can see that effects will affect the digital input, which is worth knowing.

Second, the digital level controls do not affect the digital input, which is also worth knowing (and of course that's the way it should be).

Third - and most important - when I record one minute from a CD into the R-44 via spdif, then rip that CD into my DAW and invert it against the R-44, I get silence - the spdif recording is bit-accurate.

For proof here's the readout from Audition for the mixdown of the two files, one inverted against the other -

   Left   Right
Min Sample Value:   0   0
Max Sample Value:   0   0
Peak Amplitude:   -inf dB   -inf dB
Possibly Clipped:   0   0
DC Offset:   0    0
Minimum RMS Power:   -inf dB   -inf dB
Maximum RMS Power:   -inf dB   -inf dB
Average RMS Power:   -inf dB   -inf dB
Total RMS Power:   -inf dB   -inf dB
Actual Bit Depth:   float

Using RMS Window of 50 ms

Eureka!  Sorry for the scare last night.  Never do stuff late.


Nice  :cheers:
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Manuell on July 13, 2008, 11:45:07 AM
Great work Lee.
What technique did you use to record the show?

Manuel
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: leehookem on July 13, 2008, 04:44:06 PM
Hypers, DINa, DFC, hung from the ceiling.  about 20' from the stage.  mics were about 10' from the floor, about 5' from the ceiling.  rca > xlr from the board.  50/50 matrix.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: leehookem on July 13, 2008, 04:46:09 PM
Oh yeah.  i'll post a couple of pics of the ceiling mount when I get home tonight.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: kskreider on July 13, 2008, 08:04:39 PM
This is at 25 pages so I am either going to suggest swapping to the team thread, or to have the OP (Rick) lock this and begin a new thread.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: leehookem on July 13, 2008, 08:42:56 PM
Either or
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Ozpeter on July 13, 2008, 11:09:50 PM
It's bound to resurface here in some shape or form anyway.
Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: leehookem on July 14, 2008, 01:12:52 AM
Oh yeah.  i'll post a couple of pics of the ceiling mount when I get home tonight.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/leehookem21/Topaz2008-07-11/P1070231.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/leehookem21/Topaz2008-07-11/P1070247.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/leehookem21/Topaz2008-07-11/P1070250.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/leehookem21/Topaz2008-07-11/P1070224.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/leehookem21/Topaz2008-07-11/P1070226.jpg)

Title: Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
Post by: Rick on July 14, 2008, 08:43:09 AM
on to part three... http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,107018.0.html