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Author Topic: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)  (Read 109199 times)

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Offline digifish_music

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Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
« Reply #210 on: June 12, 2008, 07:49:01 AM »
Hey Nick, check a few pages back, I had posted this about a week ago:

FWIW I had inquired with Doug a week or two ago about his planned R44 mods and this was his response (remember, these are his words, not mine ;) ):

Hi!
I have had one for a while and I like it.  It does have a serious issue if you intend to record soft sounds.  You can hear the digital noise of its display in the background at high gain.  At lower gain settings, from about -44 on up it sounds fine.  The stock sound is a bit thick and slow or "smooth" with a bit of hiss, a sound I would call vintage.  I expect to offer a concert upgrade for recording music.  I used the R44 with Concert Upgrade for the third time recording stage sound on 2 channels and the board feed on the other 2 and it works great. The sound is very fast with exceptional detail, depth and clarity.  I love the way it is designed, ergonomics are excellent as is the feature set, battery life is good and it is tiny!  The trouble is the upgrade dramatically increases detail and clarity which has the unfortunate side effect of making it easier to hear the noise at high gains.  I want to see if I can fix the digital noise before I release any upgraded machines.
I plan on asking 895.00 for them with the Concert upgrade installed.  I have hopes I will be able to pull off a high gain MOD, like the R4 or R4pro ambient upgrades, it is likely to be around 1k.
I hope this helps and thanks for the inquiry....Doug


I also asked him to give more details on this noise as I am looking at spectrograms and listening to a Rode NT1-A going into it and can't see/hear anything like digi-noise, not even when the gain is normalised on recordings of silence.

I do agree it's too hissy for quietude field-recording work where you need to use the two highest gain levels, and so the stock pres could do with a noise-reduction mod if you plan to push the gain above -44 dB.

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« Last Edit: June 12, 2008, 11:19:47 PM by digifish_music »
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Offline Ozpeter

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Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
« Reply #211 on: June 12, 2008, 09:45:02 AM »
Quote
The stock sound is a bit thick and slow or "smooth" with a bit of hiss, a sound I would call vintage.  I expect to offer a concert upgrade for recording music.  I used the R44 with Concert Upgrade for the third time recording stage sound on 2 channels and the board feed on the other 2 and it works great. The sound is very fast with exceptional detail, depth and clarity [....]  The trouble is the upgrade dramatically increases detail and clarity which has the unfortunate side effect of making it easier to hear the noise at high gains. 
I thought people who were serious about audio had moved on from that kind of mumbo-jumbo-speak.  Are there some properly conducted test measurements to show the nature of these qualities of thickness, slowness, smoothness, fast, detailed, depth, and clarity?  Are there methodologies for the measurement of these phenomena and proper definitions to be seen on line somewhere?  I'd be very interested to have the chance to study them.  We're in danger of getting into the territory of snake oil if there's no means of verifying the assertions. 

Following the recent debunking of the SACD myth following a year of properly conducted blind listening tests, I feel the need to be very careful not to be influenced by imprecise statements about audio quality that do not have the backing of stated quantifiable and verifiable facts - particularly when the acceptance of opinions as fact is to the financial benefit of the person making the statement.

In the matter of noise - with any audio equipment - indeed, the nature recordists have special requirements.  They are not concerned with the authentic reproduction of sound - they often require unrealistic levels of amplification in order to identify and classify the sounds they capture. 

On the other hand, those concerned with the high fidelity reproduction of music strive to reproduce the original level of the original sound, as the ear will distort the perception of the frequency response if it reproduced too loud or too quiet (as quantified in the Fletcher-Munson Curves).  Therefore, to reproduce quiet music at higher than natural levels leads to a reduction in fidelity, and likewise to reproduce loud music at low levels is similarly incorrect, if high fidelity is the aim.  Noise levels in almost all recently designed pro or semi pro recording equipment, including the R-44, is not likely to be any kind of a problem when the music is reproduced at realistic, accurate levels under typical listening conditions.  It's easily tested - monitor the system recording in a reasonably quiet room using closed-back headphones.  Set the preamp level, or headphone level, so that the low-level natural background sound in the room is heard at the same level with the headphones on or off your ears.  Unless there is something seriously amiss at any stage in the signal path, you won't be able to perceive any system noise.  Nor will you when listening to music at accurate levels.

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Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
« Reply #212 on: June 12, 2008, 10:20:57 AM »
Therefore, to reproduce quiet music at higher than natural levels leads to a reduction in fidelity, and likewise to reproduce loud music at low levels is similarly incorrect, if high fidelity is the aim.  Noise levels in almost all recently designed pro or semi pro recording equipment, including the R-44, is not likely to be any kind of a problem when the music is reproduced at realistic, accurate levels under typical listening conditions.

The playback system capable of reproducing the SPL of a live amplified concert typical of what many are recording around here is rare indeed.  Likewise I often increase the playback volume of low level classical passages and very quiet 'new music' pieces.  Technically those simple volume changes are linear distortions, but there are plenty of far worse non-linear distortions to worry about.  A reduction in fidelity?  Perhaps in an absolute sense, but I don't want to wear earplugs when I listen to my stereo and I like to hear the little details in those low level passages.  Those things are much more important to me than being absolutely faithful to the original SPL.
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Offline digifish_music

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Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
« Reply #213 on: June 12, 2008, 08:15:18 PM »

In the matter of noise - with any audio equipment - indeed, the nature recordists have special requirements.  They are not concerned with the authentic reproduction of sound - they often require unrealistic levels of amplification in order to identify and classify the sounds they capture. 


The amplification in my case is simply to get a decent recording level, so you can listen to it during playback without reaching for the volume knob :)

I agree with you about the fast/slow pres. I have no doubt there are audible differences in preamp designs, however during subjective assessment playback, level matching is critical and rarely done with the accuracy required. If you record impulses and test waves you will be able to clearly see the effects of various pre+A/D combinations in the recorded data. So it would be nice to see some objective waveform measures that explain what is being heard and manipulated in the preamp design. As I noted previously, I am yet to see (or hear) any 'digi-noise' in the R44, I will put up some spectrographs of -56 dB recordings of silence within the next day or so.

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« Last Edit: June 12, 2008, 11:07:54 PM by digifish_music »
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Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
« Reply #214 on: June 12, 2008, 11:54:25 PM »
Meanwhile, I've received a replacement for the Transcend 8GB card that died somewhere between taking it out of the R-44 and inserting it into my PC, and I'm giving it a good thrashing using the CardTest donationware program - http://sourceforge.net/projects/cardtest is the link.  Maybe I should mention that program in the media forum too as a search didn't reveal a previous mention of it.  (Note that testing cards destroys any data on them and requires a subsequent reformat).

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Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
« Reply #215 on: June 13, 2008, 02:28:48 AM »
See http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,105391.0.html for a new thread on card speeds and stuff.   Much food for thought there!

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Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
« Reply #216 on: June 13, 2008, 03:34:03 AM »
Hey Nick, check a few pages back, I had posted this about a week ago:

FWIW I had inquired with Doug a week or two ago about his planned R44 mods and this was his response (remember, these are his words, not mine ;) ):

Hi!
I have had one for a while and I like it.  It does have a serious issue if you intend to record soft sounds.  You can hear the digital noise of its display in the background at high gain.  At lower gain settings, from about -44 on up it sounds fine.  The stock sound is a bit thick and slow or "smooth" with a bit of hiss, a sound I would call vintage.  I expect to offer a concert upgrade for recording music.  I used the R44 with Concert Upgrade for the third time recording stage sound on 2 channels and the board feed on the other 2 and it works great. The sound is very fast with exceptional detail, depth and clarity.  I love the way it is designed, ergonomics are excellent as is the feature set, battery life is good and it is tiny!  The trouble is the upgrade dramatically increases detail and clarity which has the unfortunate side effect of making it easier to hear the noise at high gains.  I want to see if I can fix the digital noise before I release any upgraded machines.
I plan on asking 895.00 for them with the Concert upgrade installed.  I have hopes I will be able to pull off a high gain MOD, like the R4 or R4pro ambient upgrades, it is likely to be around 1k.
I hope this helps and thanks for the inquiry....Doug


Sweet by the time Doug figures this out I'll be ready to pick one up. Was thinking about selling one of my pre's to fund one. Not anymore I'll just save up. Plus you know I'll want 2 pre's in the long run with a 4 track recorder.
TDS!

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Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
« Reply #217 on: June 13, 2008, 04:35:34 AM »
Errm... sorry if I'm bothering you here, but my post seems to have been overlooked by many, so here iit is again, maybe some of you have thoughts on that issue. thanks.

I encountered a PROBLEM with my R-44 a few days ago when I recorded 4 tracks (44/24, 4xmono with 2x phantom, run with external power). 8 and a half minutes into the recording you can hear clicks/glitches or something like that. There was no clipping, and the sounds are not recorded, they're digital. Weird thing is, they're only on the first two tracks (the ones with phantom power switched on), for a duration of about ten seconds.
Now of course I am puzzled about the source of this. Either this has to do with the R-44 (worst case), or my SD card (Kingston class 6, 8gig), or (maybe more likely) the somewhat dodgy electricity in the space - maybe someone in the next room switched some electric device on and off? The last assumption would imply that in conditions like these you should only record with battery power!?

Any ideas, hobby electricians maybe?

If someone's interested, here's the part of the recording with the glitches (mixdown of the two phantom tracks):
http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/12/23/547356/glitch.mp3

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Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
« Reply #218 on: June 13, 2008, 06:03:38 AM »
Doug notes - "You can hear the digital noise of its display in the background at high gain".

OK, here is a Rode NT4 sitting in a vocal booth connected to an Edirol R44 running all but flat-out on the internal preamps...

R44 on internal batteries.
Chanels 1 & 2.
Phantom on.
Low-cut off.
Limiter off.
Display on (default brightness).
Preamp sensitivity (max) = -56 dB
Level = 12 O'Clock
24 bit @ 44.1 kHz

Here is the sound <- Click here to download the 10 second sample





IMO those are some beautiful looking noise graphs from a digi-noise perspective. Not a spike anywhere, only hiss and some low frequency rumble (very low level and recorded not digital). The same is true when you normalize or add any level of amplification to the digital recording. I would be genuinely interested to know what Doug is hearing?

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« Last Edit: June 20, 2008, 08:10:59 PM by digifish_music »
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Offline Ozpeter

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Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
« Reply #219 on: June 13, 2008, 06:06:53 AM »
How would you characterise digital noise vs preamp noise?  Maybe it would show up more in an averaged frequency response scan (if present, which like you I doubt) - though the noise distribution in your picture looks very even.  Maybe try some variations of the display and button illuminations to clinch the point.

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Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
« Reply #220 on: June 13, 2008, 06:09:34 AM »
How would you characterise digital noise vs preamp noise?  Maybe it would show up more in an averaged frequency response scan (if present, which like you I doubt) - though the noise distribution in your picture looks very even.  Maybe try some variations of the display and button illuminations to clinch the point.

Digital noise usually looks like single frequency bands running through the signal, I will post an example from an R09. Give me a moment. OK I have one example below, this is what happens when you press an R09 up against a MixPre (below the spectrograph), this is just one example, sometimes the noise is intermittent or has multiple harmonics, but digital interference is always in harmonic bands (in my experience).

The noise I hear above is random hiss. The low frequency rumble is just that, rumble from the city/building/atmosphere.







digifish.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2008, 06:32:37 AM by digifish_music »
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Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
« Reply #221 on: June 13, 2008, 06:31:12 AM »
I did get that 18kHz spike in one of my 'silence' tests but that could have been due to placing the external battery pack next to the mic - must retest....

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Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
« Reply #222 on: June 13, 2008, 06:40:59 AM »
I did get that 18kHz spike in one of my 'silence' tests but that could have been due to placing the external battery pack next to the mic - must retest....

Here's some more R09 'behaving badly' spectra :)

This is an R09HR vs R09 internal mic comparison another Taper (Powermonkey) previously posted, on the right you can clearly see the trademark R09 digi-noise vs the clean HR spectrograph.



the lower one is interference from a digital camera on the R09


« Last Edit: June 13, 2008, 07:10:32 AM by digifish_music »
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Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
« Reply #223 on: June 13, 2008, 06:55:11 AM »
Now that's noise!

I just did a quick retest with the Sennheiser MKH cardioid mic at full preamp volume, and waved the battery pack around - putting it right next to the mic you can see on the spectral display a faint diagonal line appears, otherwise nothing.  That could be due to RF interference stuff happening in the battery pack (multivoltage with electronics within) and the RF in the mic (wild guess).  But that apart, no evidence whatever of anything I'd describe as digital noise, and no significant other noise either.

I love how quick it is to fire up this little machine and run such a test!

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Re: Edirol R-44 - 4 Channel Recorder (Part II)
« Reply #224 on: June 13, 2008, 07:23:47 AM »
Errm... sorry if I'm bothering you here, but my post seems to have been overlooked by many, so here iit is again, maybe some of you have thoughts on that issue. thanks.

I encountered a PROBLEM with my R-44 a few days ago when I recorded 4 tracks (44/24, 4xmono with 2x phantom, run with external power). 8 and a half minutes into the recording you can hear clicks/glitches or something like that. There was no clipping, and the sounds are not recorded, they're digital. Weird thing is, they're only on the first two tracks (the ones with phantom power switched on), for a duration of about ten seconds.

...

Any ideas, hobby electricians maybe?

If someone's interested, here's the part of the recording with the glitches (mixdown of the two phantom tracks):
http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/12/23/547356/glitch.mp3


My best guess is mobile phone noise, the image below is the part where I could hear ticking. It took me a while to realise that this wasn't part of the music. As you can see below I copied the second (clearer one), the top part of the image, back into the more noisy part of the track and you can see it's the same rhythm twice, has that mobile-phone kind of rhythm to me....



digifish
« Last Edit: June 13, 2008, 07:33:53 AM by digifish_music »
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