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Author Topic: Digital Microphones and Their Advantages: Is This the Future?  (Read 22324 times)

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Digital Microphones and Their Advantages: Is This the Future?
« Reply #45 on: November 04, 2011, 10:56:08 AM »
New applied technology often starts with the top end and works its way to the mainstream, which reflects the current crop of digital mics.  Yet what I'm hopeing to see is a different emphasis, with development focusing on operational simplification and cost reduction for mid-range users.   Perhaps sacrificing some of the potential gain in ultimate sound quality for the top dog users, but probably not sacrificing any 'real world' quality for most users while making usage simple and much of the gear commodity computer type stuff.

We have cheap digital USB mics at the bottom end, and we have no compromize digital solutions like those discussed in this thread. But I'm talking about targeting the vast market of mid range gear users. 

Run some cat-5 to the mics, plug that into a standard ethernet switch along with a bit-bucket.  Substitute wireless LANs for cat-5 if you want.  Control it with smart phone apps, a tablet, computer, dedicated recorder or whatever you like.  Multichanel as simple as substituting a bigger switch.  Same for running a snake- its a simple star topograpy network. Fix the dynamic range of the mics at something reasonable that encompases 90% of what most people record with reasonable quality gear and optimize the useful bits of the 24bit ADC to take best advantage of that.  Buffer the output of the mic ADCs with memory and SRC as required.  Throw away the unused bits and don't worry about it (we already throw them away anyway, either from the top or the bottom).  If that is too simplified or dynamically compromized, put a single high/low gain switch on the mics (or in the app).  Users that need to optimize super high or low SPL capability or the absolute ulitmate quallity can stay analog or buy the current digital mics that use more specialized, adjustable and costly gear, but for most users cost goes way down by using commodity digital network gear except the control sofware, probably a specialized network layer and the most important part- the mic/ADCs themselves.

I have unintentionally made recordings of classical material which peaked 30dB below FS and did not suffer from raising the level afterwards.  Noise floor of the room was still above that of my analog chain.  I'd be more than happy selecting between a single high/low gain range for everything I record and never have to worry about further optimizing levels.  Fancy audio gear is cool in itself and we all dig it, but when it comes down to making recordings, I'm more than happy to give that up to simply concentrate on mic placement and arrangement which none of this changes. 

This will not satisfy a truely professional user and I don't mean it to.  A vast amount of audio gear is marketed to a 'prosumer' level where this applies perfectly.  Like many here at TS I'm no pro, although I greatly respect those who are.
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Offline John Willett

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Re: Digital Microphones and Their Advantages: Is This the Future?
« Reply #46 on: November 04, 2011, 12:37:23 PM »
New applied technology often starts with the top end and works its way to the mainstream, which reflects the current crop of digital mics.  Yet what I'm hopeing to see is a different emphasis, with development focusing on operational simplification and cost reduction for mid-range users.   Perhaps sacrificing some of the potential gain in ultimate sound quality for the top dog users, but probably not sacrificing any 'real world' quality for most users while making usage simple and much of the gear commodity computer type stuff.

We have cheap digital USB mics at the bottom end, and we have no compromize digital solutions like those discussed in this thread. But I'm talking about targeting the vast market of mid range gear users. 


The first AES42 mic. was the Neumann D-01 which incorporated almost everything in the spec. and was certainly not cheap.

However, Schoeps quickly came out with their module that you could use with any of their collette series and Neumann came out later with the KM-D series.  Both these are mid range.

You can certainly run an AES42 mic. down CAT5 and I have seen the adaptors tp do this - but you have to convert it back to XLR at the other end.

Yes, it would be nice if more equipment would have AES42 inputs as standard, so you would not have to have an interface.  Only the SD 788T and AETA 4MinX do this at the moment; but mixers are starting to include them and there is a PC card with AES42 available.

Yes, I wish more microphone manufacturers would do an AES42 mic. - Gefell have already done one, lets hope they do more.  And now DPA have their new series with interchangeable heads and modules I am hoping that they will do an AES42 module as well.  After all, a mic. manufacturer only has to do a single module with detachable heads to make a whole series of microphones.

Digital mics are not difficult, and in fact can be cheaper as you don't have to purchase an analogue mic.pre-amp.

Offline rastasean

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Re: Digital Microphones and Their Advantages: Is This the Future?
« Reply #47 on: November 04, 2011, 01:03:00 PM »

Digital mics are not difficult, and in fact can be cheaper as you don't have to purchase an analogue mic.pre-amp.

Digital mics may not be expensive when factoring in pre-amps but if you're a recording studio with $50,000 or more in equipment and already very high end analogue microphones, you probably won't be switching until there is a need.
Now if you're some Hollywood big shot, going all digital is worth every penny then you would be able to afford the migration.

How are digital microphones matched with one another, in the same manner of analogue?
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Offline John Willett

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Re: Digital Microphones and Their Advantages: Is This the Future?
« Reply #48 on: November 04, 2011, 01:06:44 PM »

Digital mics are not difficult, and in fact can be cheaper as you don't have to purchase an analogue mic.pre-amp.

Digital mics may not be expensive when factoring in pre-amps but if you're a recording studio with $50,000 or more in equipment and already very high end analogue microphones, you probably won't be switching until there is a need.
Now if you're some Hollywood big shot, going all digital is worth every penny then you would be able to afford the migration.

Agreed - though you would not necessarily need to switch, you can just add AES42 microphones to the mic. store and use as needed; just like any other mics.



How are digital microphones matched with one another, in the same manner of analogue?

I would assume the capsules would be matched in the same manner.

Offline hi and lo

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Re: Digital Microphones and Their Advantages: Is This the Future?
« Reply #49 on: November 04, 2011, 02:57:25 PM »

Digital mics are a big factor in that but I continue to be unimpressed with AES as a standard--at least as a sole solution.  It still requires a special box at the other end and allows use of too much power.  Gimme a mic that automatically switches between AES and analog and I might get a bit more interested . . . actually, maybe I should go and do that . . . make it automatically switch between AES, analog, USB, and wireless . . . mmmmm, now we are talking  8)

Yes. You should do this! :)

Sorry AKG/Gefell active folks.. I know you probably just a minor heart attack.  ;D

Offline John Willett

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Re: Digital Microphones and Their Advantages: Is This the Future?
« Reply #50 on: November 04, 2011, 03:18:48 PM »
I continue to be unimpressed with AES as a standard--at least as a sole solution.  It still requires a special box at the other end and allows use of too much power. 

A special box is not necessarily required - this is only an interim solution until more manufacturers include it as standard.

I list all the products that are currently available - microphones and receiving equipment - in my papers.

It does not allow "too much power" at all.  The power requirements in AES42 were a compromise as to what the microphone manufacturers wanted and the console manufacturers were prepared to send.  After all, the power is for digital circuitry in the microphone that requires more power than a simple circuit in an analogue mic..

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Digital Microphones and Their Advantages: Is This the Future?
« Reply #51 on: November 04, 2011, 04:08:52 PM »
What happens when your mic automatically goes looking to join your wi-fi network..

This big picture view is an extension of exactly what I'm getting at.  Eliminating all the special boxes, including AES standardized hardware mixers and recorders.  Not a solution for everyone, but for certainly a good fit for many.   Once it's digital (and synced/resynced) the downstream equipment need be nothing more than commodity networking and storage gear.  Bits is bits (+ sync).  Only the mics and software need to be 'audio specific' gear.

I'm looking forward to reading your papers when I get a chance John, thanks.  Still, I'm personally intersted in approaching the whole thing from Jon's (Mshillarious) perspective, rather than from a traditional 'installed base of pro customers and gear' angle.  More revolutionary than evolutionary.

I'll be at a music festival next weekend that includes a 'silent DJ' tent, with no PA where everyone wears wireless headphones (and in some incarnations can select between two different yet simultaneous live broadcast streams).  I've read about this and will stick my head in at some point to check it out.  It is only a few steps removed from the future live performance scenario Jon paints above.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Brian E.

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Re: Digital Microphones and Their Advantages: Is This the Future?
« Reply #52 on: November 04, 2011, 04:17:15 PM »
this thread is sexy.
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Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Digital Microphones and Their Advantages: Is This the Future?
« Reply #53 on: November 04, 2011, 05:26:15 PM »
know you probably just a minor heart attack.  ;D

They have already died waiting . . .  :o

With the low rate of implementation of AES42 I doubt I'd move many.  People will ask for SPDIF instead, or try it with an AES3 input, and then I'd have to explain why that won't work.  So I will probably stick with USB.


Re: power for an ADC, no way 2.5W is required.  Let's say PCM4202 + DIT4096 for a solution; that's 160mW plus we need an analog front-end, say AD8606 for another 10mW, plus capsule FET at another 10mW.   Plus an oscillator, another 100mW.  Total power budget, 280mW.  Use a charge pump to drop to 5V so there are no losses from linear regulation; I lose 85mW in the supply resistors for 365mW total.  So I still have a system that is only 77% efficient, which bothers me because with a dedicated power pin that would be better than 90%.  And as the power consumption of the system increases the efficiency drops further.

So I'm sorry, but 2.5W is an enormous amount of power in the digital portable world.  TI posts Youtubes of their MCUs running on batteries made from fruit (I'm not making this up), but AES thinks we need digital mics consuming enough power to heat a tube.  I don't get it.  Heck, P48 is too much power and it's time somebody recognized that.  The better brands often run on 11V-52V at low (and constant) current so this is hardly a great technical barrier.  Scrap it and mandate P12.

But I digress . . .

And AES42 does requires a special box, whether that box is a dedicated outboard receiver or an interface with an AES42 input.  My point is all boxes are going away except for the box that is the data storage and processing tool, and those aren't likely to support unique digital audio connectors especially if they require 10V.  As DSatz argues, it's a bit underwhelming because nothing physical has changed:  mic, cable, box, recorder.  It's a bit technically better, yes, but not dramatically improved enough to make it mandatory.

The audio industry ought to be looking at methods to make existing common protocols and connectors functional for professional audio.  I would guess fewer manufacturers will support AES42, not more, as more universal solutions replace it.

Thanks for the great read! I couldnt agree with yoiu anymore :)
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Offline H₂O

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Re: Digital Microphones and Their Advantages: Is This the Future?
« Reply #54 on: November 04, 2011, 08:37:16 PM »
I do not think USB is suited for professional use outside of a simple audio interface.  USB is much larger platform then just audio and is design simply as a way to interface most anything to a single computer - although it supports isochronous traffic it is not designed to handle many streams from different sources (USB devices) and is a flat bus (it is not switched).  I don't see it feasible to run a recording studio off a USB hub.  Some limitations of USB:
 - non-locking connector
 - No way to get sample level synchronization (clock sync)
 - limited prioritization
 - requires external control (i.e. CPU intensive)
 - does not scale very well (although it supports 127 or more devices the bus will get congested quickly the more devices you add)

I would think for a multichannel audio you would need a more robust networked protocol that supports prioritization, with a queueing switched infrastructure (such as QoS enabled IP network) - regardless I think this is a big leap from the discussion of digital microphones.

Diaphragm > FET > AD > Digital Audio IO Bus (I2S is an example) > (optional: AES/SPDIF) > Digital Audio IO Bus > Processor (CPU/DSP) > (Recording Device/USB bus/Network Interface)

The digital mic portion is the first 5 parts in this chain - with some of the DSP affects moving into the Processor portion.   There are some USB (SOCs) that have Processor built in but the idea is still the same.

Two topics here are:
 - getting the audio into the digital realm (and at what stage does that take place)  - digital microphones
 - interfacing digital audio with a computer or recording device - USB

I don't know if AES42 is the future or not as technology moves fast. 

In fact I bet in the next 10 years there will be software that can take in a bunch of YouTube feeds of a single event and mix the different videos in to a virtual representation of the event with a 3d like sound and video experience (i.e. a bunch or people with iphones at a concert for example).  They can already do this with still pictures.  Will it have the dynamic range if all the mics where professional - no - but most people would be happy with the results.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2011, 09:17:05 PM by H²O »
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Offline rastasean

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Re: Digital Microphones and Their Advantages: Is This the Future?
« Reply #55 on: November 04, 2011, 09:06:44 PM »
If youtube is still around in a decade, it will be much worse than it already is.

The main issue I have with audio technology getting better and better is that fewer and fewer people will care. The popular music of today really involves untalented people singing with synthesizers and auto tune.

Soulja Boy Tell'em - Crank That (Soulja Boy)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UFIYGkROII
 total number of views: 111,703,899

How many digital mics were used to produce this video?
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Digital Microphones and Their Advantages: Is This the Future?
« Reply #56 on: November 05, 2011, 03:27:58 AM »
How about a microphone body with ADC, small memory card (like XD size) for storing the audio, small rechargable battery supply, and a wireless transmiter that sends/recieves only control and clock data.  Add capsule of choice. 

No seperate recorder, no wires, simple wireless requirements, multiple mics as you like.  Recharge and off-load afterwards.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline blee421

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Re: Digital Microphones and Their Advantages: Is This the Future?
« Reply #57 on: November 05, 2011, 05:55:52 PM »
What monster have I created here!!!Peeps...when I got this setup it was mainly to be able to record 4 channels and not have to carry a shitload of gear with me to make it happen.Slimming the bag was the main goal.I was more into DPA microphones at the time and figured I would give this Schoeps setup a try.So,I sold my DPA 4021,4027 and 4011 combo I had going and went with this.I also sold a Mini MP and a V3 to make it all happen.Man was it worth it!!!I frickin loved being able to just show up,clamp,turn on the 788T and hit record.The first thing I noticed was that my levels were L,R close together and not all over the place.They seemed very precise.Anyways,I'm very glad this thread took off.Maybe a TEAM DIGITAL MICROPHONES should happen down the road if some more folks move that way.Here is a recording that I think came out really good considering I was in the back of the TS at Bill Graham Civic.The acoustic set in the beginning is a little iffy,but the electric sets sound pretty damm good IMHO.Take a listen!  ;D :D ;D

http://www.archive.org/details/furthur2010-03-12.schoeps-mk41.lee.106719.flac24 

SBD
http://www.archive.org/details/furthur2010-03-12.sbd.official.112973.flac16
« Last Edit: November 05, 2011, 08:26:05 PM by blee421 »
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Offline John Willett

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Re: Digital Microphones and Their Advantages: Is This the Future?
« Reply #58 on: November 06, 2011, 03:46:18 AM »

Re: power for an ADC, no way 2.5W is required.  Let's say PCM4202 + DIT4096 for a solution; that's 160mW plus we need an analog front-end, say AD8606 for another 10mW, plus capsule FET at another 10mW.   Plus an oscillator, another 100mW.  Total power budget, 280mW.  Use a charge pump to drop to 5V so there are no losses from linear regulation; I lose 85mW in the supply resistors for 365mW total.  So I still have a system that is only 77% efficient, which bothers me because with a dedicated power pin that would be better than 90%.  And as the power consumption of the system increases the efficiency drops further.

So I'm sorry, but 2.5W is an enormous amount of power in the digital portable world.  TI posts Youtubes of their MCUs running on batteries made from fruit (I'm not making this up), but AES thinks we need digital mics consuming enough power to heat a tube.  I don't get it.  Heck, P48 is too much power and it's time somebody recognized that.  The better brands often run on 11V-52V at low (and constant) current so this is hardly a great technical barrier.  Scrap it and mandate P12.

Where do you get 2.5W from?

The spec. is 250mW.





And AES42 does requires a special box, whether that box is a dedicated outboard receiver or an interface with an AES42 input.  My point is all boxes are going away except for the box that is the data storage and processing tool, and those aren't likely to support unique digital audio connectors especially if they require 10V.  As DSatz argues, it's a bit underwhelming because nothing physical has changed:  mic, cable, box, recorder.  It's a bit technically better, yes, but not dramatically improved enough to make it mandatory.

The audio industry ought to be looking at methods to make existing common protocols and connectors functional for professional audio.  I would guess fewer manufacturers will support AES42, not more, as more universal solutions replace it.

No - AES42 only requires a special box where it is not already built in to the equipment.

AES42 is basically the same as AES3 with a few extras - so it's not that difficult to do.

Offline MIQ

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Re: Digital Microphones and Their Advantages: Is This the Future?
« Reply #59 on: November 06, 2011, 10:52:07 PM »
How about a microphone body with ADC, small memory card (like XD size) for storing the audio, small rechargable battery supply, and a wireless transmiter that sends/recieves only control and clock data.  Add capsule of choice. 

No seperate recorder, no wires, simple wireless requirements, multiple mics as you like.  Recharge and off-load afterwards.

That is killer Gutbucket!!  This has been a cool thread with some eye opening thoughts.  Thanks

-MIQ

 

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