Topic: spaced omnis placement confusion

[ghellquist]

You are talking about one application of the rule lets say, I wanted to mic a symphony orchestra.  I had a cardioid in the center and two omni mics with the 3:1 rule; this would be a real world application of this law. I think that the 3:1 rule is not for every situation just like XY.
But it can be used for some.

Chris Church

Hmm. Cannot follow you? What distances are you talking about. Please make a drawing and call of the distances.

Or, do you mean one orchestra and three mics? That is not the 3:1 rule.

I do a bit of symphony orchestra recordings as an amateur. There are many three mic setups in common use. One used quite successfully for a long time by one of the classic houses was three omnis on a line straight in front of the orchestra. Another common setup is three omnis setup as above the orchestra in something called a Decca tree. I have never seen a single cardioid with two flanking omnis as a setup, never heard of it before. I would dare to say that it is not any standard technique.

A quite different thing is that today almost all symphony orchestra recordings use a lot of spot mics. A recording might have 50 mics and sometimes even more. Doing this right is something very different from setting up two mics to a stereo pair, so lets keep that out of the discussion.

Remember, this whole discussion went off on a tangent when people starting arguing that 3:1 is a good rule for the two mics (exactly two mics) in a stereo pair. These things has absolutely nothing to do with each other. I find it odd that people refuse to understand simple arguments. I find it even more odd that this misconcepting can keep on spreading, as it is so very easy to show that it is not even possible to make any setup following the rule (it is totally impossible).

Gunnar

[Church-Audio]

I give up your right I am wrong ok how’s that end of argument I don’t want to argue about mic techniques I have been a sound engineer for 20 years. You guys continue the discussion with out me.

You are talking about one application of the rule lets say, I wanted to mic a symphony orchestra.  I had a cardioid in the center and two omni mics with the 3:1 rule; this would be a real world application of this law. I think that the 3:1 rule is not for every situation just like XY.
But it can be used for some.

Chris Church

Hmm. Cannot follow you? What distances are you talking about. Please make a drawing and call of the distances.

Or, do you mean one orchestra and three mics? That is not the 3:1 rule.

I do a bit of symphony orchestra recordings as an amateur. There are many setups in common use. One used quite successfully for a long time by one of the classic houses was three omnis on a line straight in front of the orchestra. Another common setup is three omnis setup as above the orchestra in something called a Decca tree. I have never seen a single cardioid with two flanking omnis as a setup, never heard of it before. I would dare to say that it is not any standard technique.

A quite different thing is that today almost all symphony orchestra recordings use a lot of spot mics. A recording might have 50 mics and sometimes even more. Doing this right is something very different from setting up two mics to a stereo pair, so lets keep that out of the discussion.

Gunnar

[RebelRebel]

Gunnar, how about you put away your internet dick and spend your time worrying about something else Youve stated your point over and over and over and over......who cares but you?

I also suggest going easy on the insults. or things can, and will go downhill very quick here. Let it go and your life will be a lot easier.

and Im sorry, but the "talking to kids who dont want to listen" comment makes you sound like a real dick.  One word for you, Gunnar--Humility






Chris Church,  just let it go. Dont waste your breath arguing. -T for getting worked up over nothing. 

I do not want to argue with you but, The 3:1 rule does exist. I am not saying I use it but it’s out there, for some applications it would work just fine.

We all agree there is a 3:1 rule-of-the-thumb rule. It exists. It is a usable starting point.

But what we are saying is that IT DOES NOT APPLY TO THE DISTANCE BETWEEN THE TWO MICS IN A STEREO PAIR . 

Sorry for shouting. I will say it again, it describes something else than how to set up two mics as a stereo pair.
Again, when you setup tow mics as a stereo pair, do follow the guidelines of great people going ahead of us. None of them ever uses the 3:1 rule in this context.

I am sort of getting agitated here. Feel like I am talking to kids that does not want to listen. Or are you trying to make me angry? Guess what, I´m sort of getting there.

Talking about 3:1 and stereo pair in the same sentence is based on a total misunderstanding. Total, utterly off. Has nothing to do with each other.

If nothing else it is physically impossible! How could it then be the preferred setup? Guys, do make a drawing (paper and pen)!

Gunnar

[RebelRebel]

I give up your right I am wrong ok how’s that end of argument I don’t want to argue about mic techniques I have been a sound engineer for 20 years. You guys continue the discussion with out me.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You are talking about one application of the rule lets say, I wanted to mic a symphony orchestra.  I had a cardioid in the center and two omni mics with the 3:1 rule; this would be a real world application of this law. I think that the 3:1 rule is not for every situation just like XY.
But it can be used for some.

Chris Church

Hmm. Cannot follow you? What distances are you talking about. Please make a drawing and call of the distances.

Or, do you mean one orchestra and three mics? That is not the 3:1 rule.

I do a bit of symphony orchestra recordings as an amateur. There are many setups in common use. One used quite successfully for a long time by one of the classic houses was three omnis on a line straight in front of the orchestra. Another common setup is three omnis setup as above the orchestra in something called a Decca tree. I have never seen a single cardioid with two flanking omnis as a setup, never heard of it before. I would dare to say that it is not any standard technique.

A quite different thing is that today almost all symphony orchestra recordings use a lot of spot mics. A recording might have 50 mics and sometimes even more. Doing this right is something very different from setting up two mics to a stereo pair, so lets keep that out of the discussion.

Gunnar

[/quote]

[kuuan]

thank's Teddy for making me laugh
have been wondering WHO or WHAT is SPACED OUT here

[Gutbucket]

Ha! That painting is spot on, Teddy.  Who's the artist?

[RebelRebel]

Ha! That painting is spot on, Teddy.  Who's the artist?

I have no idea, it just reminded me of Chris Church. (I love you Chris )

[ghellquist]

Gunnar, how about you put away your internet dick and spend your time worrying about something else Youve stated your point over and over and over and over......who cares but you?

I also suggest going easy on the insults. or things can, and will go downhill very quick here. Let it go and your life will be a lot easier.

and Im sorry, but the "talking to kids who dont want to listen" comment makes you sound like a real dick.  One word for you, Gunnar--Humility

If any of my writings were interpreted as insults I am very sorry about that, none of them was ever meant as that. I ask you to forgive me for that.

As for talking to kids I was trying to illustrate my feeling about the discussion was frustration, not in any way implying that I consider anyone to be a kid. Quite on the contrary I expect you to be people that are open to arguments and willing to either accept arguments or willing to give logical arguments allowing me to change views and learn in the process. If I say that the earth is flat and you say it is round, I expect you to give logical arguments allowing me to understand where and how I am wrong.

So I guess I will leave it at this:
- some believe the 3:1 rule applies
- I am probably an idiot but I cannot for the world understand how (as to me it is a logical and physical impossibility)
- I am not alone in not understanding it

What is sad is if this keeps people away from trying spaced omnis in recordings.

And once more, if anyone took offense from my writings, this was not in any way my intention. I ask you to forgive me if that was the error.

Gunnar

[RebelRebel]

Gunnar, noone is going to stop using any mic technique based on what theyve read on a message board. as for the insults thing, I know as well as anyone that it is easy to sound obnoxious. (ive been called out quite a few times myself).
As for the 3:1 argument, I say that you have presented your thoughts well, and you maybe should leave it at that. It doesnt matter if you convince people or not. All you can hope to do is present your side of it.

As for the insults thing, I was just warning you. Once people start here, things get ugly rather quick. Pile ons and blow ups are common place. Plus, Chris Church has a storm cloud that follows him everywhere. I think he is the Antichrist. Choose your battles wisely.

Gunnar, how about you put away your internet dick and spend your time worrying about something else Youve stated your point over and over and over and over......who cares but you?

I also suggest going easy on the insults. or things can, and will go downhill very quick here. Let it go and your life will be a lot easier.

and Im sorry, but the "talking to kids who dont want to listen" comment makes you sound like a real dick.  One word for you, Gunnar--Humility

If any of my writings were interpreted as insults I am very sorry about that, none of them was ever meant as that. I ask you to forgive me for that.

As for talking to kids I was trying to illustrate my feeling about the discussion was frustration, not in any way implying that I consider anyone to be a kid. Quite on the contrary I expect you to be people that are open to arguments and willing to either accept arguments or willing to give logical arguments allowing me to change views and learn in the process. If I say that the earth is flat and you say it is round, I expect you to give logical arguments allowing me to understand where and how I am wrong.

So I guess I will leave it at this:
- some believe the 3:1 rule applies
- I am probably an idiot but I cannot for the world understand how (as to me it is a logical and physical impossibility)
- I am not alone in not understanding it

What is sad is if this keeps people away from trying spaced omnis in recordings.

And once more, if anyone took offense from my writings, this was not in any way my intention. I ask you to forgive me if that was the error.

Gunnar

[ghellquist]

Thank you Teddy. Warning taken.

Gunnar

[muj]

I give up your right I am wrong ok how’s that end of argument I don’t want to argue about mic techniques I have been a sound engineer for 20 years. You guys continue the discussion with out me.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You are talking about one application of the rule lets say, I wanted to mic a symphony orchestra.  I had a cardioid in the center and two omni mics with the 3:1 rule; this would be a real world application of this law. I think that the 3:1 rule is not for every situation just like XY.
But it can be used for some.

Chris Church

LMAO

[Church-Audio]

No storm cloud, I was just tired of arguing a point on mic placement, when I have used it and it worked for me. That’s all; it gets rather boring to argue something like a mic technique, when nothing about mic placement in the first place is written in stone

I guess that was another point I wanted to make that there are no 100% rules to placing a mic.

Gunnar, noone is going to stop using any mic technique based on what theyve read on a message board. as for the insults thing, I know as well as anyone that it is easy to sound obnoxious. (ive been called out quite a few times myself).
As for the 3:1 argument, I say that you have presented your thoughts well, and you maybe should leave it at that. It doesnt matter if you convince people or not. All you can hope to do is present your side of it.

As for the insults thing, I was just warning you. Once people start here, things get ugly rather quick. Pile ons and blow ups are common place. Plus, Chris Church has a storm cloud that follows him everywhere. I think he is the Antichrist. Choose your battles wisely.

Gunnar, how about you put away your internet dick and spend your time worrying about something else Youve stated your point over and over and over and over......who cares but you?

I also suggest going easy on the insults. or things can, and will go downhill very quick here. Let it go and your life will be a lot easier.

and Im sorry, but the "talking to kids who dont want to listen" comment makes you sound like a real dick.  One word for you, Gunnar--Humility

If any of my writings were interpreted as insults I am very sorry about that, none of them was ever meant as that. I ask you to forgive me for that.

As for talking to kids I was trying to illustrate my feeling about the discussion was frustration, not in any way implying that I consider anyone to be a kid. Quite on the contrary I expect you to be people that are open to arguments and willing to either accept arguments or willing to give logical arguments allowing me to change views and learn in the process. If I say that the earth is flat and you say it is round, I expect you to give logical arguments allowing me to understand where and how I am wrong.

So I guess I will leave it at this:
- some believe the 3:1 rule applies
- I am probably an idiot but I cannot for the world understand how (as to me it is a logical and physical impossibility)
- I am not alone in not understanding it

What is sad is if this keeps people away from trying spaced omnis in recordings.

And once more, if anyone took offense from my writings, this was not in any way my intention. I ask you to forgive me if that was the error.

Gunnar

[kuuan]

The title I chose for this thread turned out fitting well.
Though Gunnar's  English is superior to mine, he might have the same problem as I have, English not being his mother tongue. Words chosen may sometimes be understood differently by 'native speakers' than intended to.
Please I don't want another start of the argument if or if not the rule exists, it obviously does, but just as obviously, since there are numerous recommendations for a placement of just a foot or two out there as well, it does not apply necessarily. Thank you Gunnar for pointing that out, and you are right, if the placement had to be according to the rule it's impracticability would have scared me away trying to use it.