Author Topic: Who runs MS and why ? (Read 6343 times)

Xpanding Man · « **on:** January 23, 2004, 12:00:50 AM »

I'm told that running MS enables you to 'dial in' the pickup pattern of your choice, from a wide card to a super card type of pickup. i'm told this can be done in cool edit pro after recording.

if one were so inclined, couldn't one run this for every show, and then during the conversion just 'dial in' the optimal pattern until the soundstage is optimized? am i being naive ? i have TLs and could run card or hyper for the M component.

thanks,
john

Craig T · « **Reply #1 on:** January 23, 2004, 09:21:00 AM »

I like to use m/s, but sometimes don't want to bother with the m/s>stereo mixdown. I've had good results using it on stage and from a distance. from a distance you'll end up with the music coming from a very focused center image.

There are a few of my m/s recordings up on Archive.org from the ADK TL's. Search ADK and you'll find them. There should be a few Charlie Hunter, Will Bernard, and SKB.

todd e · « **Reply #2 on:** January 23, 2004, 12:03:44 PM »

now i am no expert in this field, but mid side configurations aren't just about being able to dial in the settings to suit the room. it takes a figure eight microphone, in conjunction with a cardiod or a sub cardiod (etc...)

the nice thing that the vms box does for schoeps is that is can do the mix-down 'real-time', as in before it goes to your A>D. something i plan to try is both options at once. both the I/II and the M/S settings, send signal simultaneously. so that way we can walk away with a playable tape, allowing us to then mix-down at home for the BEST width setting.

the schoeps folks definitely have proven themselves in the field (even FOB!!), so i'd suggest getting their catalog and start reading.

i can send you some tapes, if you'd like to hear some.

Swanny · « **Reply #3 on:** January 23, 2004, 12:10:18 PM »

I've only run it a couple of times. It is best in a good sounding situation. Outside you can get some wind phasing. I would like to try running an omni for the center channel sometime. But the main reason to run it is because it just looks cool...

todd e · « **Reply #4 on:** January 23, 2004, 12:24:27 PM »

i think the real reason, is that it so simple to setup. the schoeps mount basically allows it to be point and shoot (plug and record, you know what i mean)

we typically run the (mk8 + mk4) > kcy (active cable) > vms02ib (width btwn 1-9) > ad1k (or mini-me)
nice small footprint.

Nick's Picks · « **Reply #5 on:** January 23, 2004, 07:49:24 PM »

M-S does not allow you to choose polar pattern in post.
what it does do is give you the ability to adjust the amount of presence (vai gain) of the forward facing (mid) mic and the width (side) of the figure of 8.
The side info is more ambient info where as the mid is forward signal.

Kicks ass on stage!
It gained innital popularity as it is very easy to mix in post to a mono signal for broadcasting purposes.

When I run it, I tend to like a lot of side information. If you are in a not so good local, like the TS in a large indoor arena, it can sound like ass. if you give it too much mid (forward) gain, then you get an uninvolving mono sounding crap recording.
I've got examples of great and crappy M-S recordings if anyone wants one.

many preamps will do the M-S mixing internaly (if you want them to) and then it outputs an XY signal. Personaly, I like doing it "on the fly" this way. You just need Etymotic earphones so you can hear what you are doing, and then its a pice of cake.
the V2/3 does a great job at it.

Xpanding Man · « **Reply #6 on:** January 24, 2004, 07:17:21 PM »

thank you gentlemen....

so, no on arena shows, yes on FOB/stage tapes, especially outdoors. Will try it out on 04/04/04 with Bela at pompano; have 8th row DFC.

Also, I had no idea that the V2 could do a MS....thought that was just on the V3. Muchas Garcias

Nick's Picks · « **Reply #7 on:** January 24, 2004, 07:26:07 PM »

same jumpers in the V2 I believe.
have fun!

sickrick43 · « **Reply #8 on:** January 27, 2004, 02:06:45 AM »

Look for me @ Bela in Pompano, TLM170's. 10th Row, Seats 15 & 16. I want to try Blumlien, if I can get my mike-clamps-shit together by then.

Rick

Kwonfidelity · « **Reply #9 on:** January 27, 2004, 02:20:52 AM »

Quote from: Swanny on January 23, 2004, 12:10:18 PM

I've only run it a couple of times. It is best in a good sounding situation. Outside you can get some wind phasing. I would like to try running an omni for the center channel sometime. But the main reason to run it is because it just looks cool...

Whoa, hold up now. M/S is a perfect set-up for windy situations b/c it defeats against phasing from wind since it is a single point configuration.

M/S can also 'create' your own polar pattern in post because of the flexibility you have with the soundstage. This is because of my next point.

The greatest advantage of M/S, alongside those aforementioned, is that it can yield three channels from one. Actually, if done right, you can extract up to 5 usable channels from one fig-8 and another mic of choice. Never use an omni in m/s unless the soundstage is surrounding you ie on-stage. Subs, cards, and hypers all work very well with m/s (Respectively in that order as you get farther away from the soundstage).

Agreed that m/s is better suited for post. If you want to wing it and do it live, go ahead. Sort of defeats the effectiveness and versatility of m/s, even with etymotics earwax plugs.

Not enough people do it, but as also mentioned, if you were to do this all the time and mix in post, you would be spending a whole lot of time in front of your desk/studio.

Xpanding Man · « **Reply #10 on:** January 27, 2004, 03:38:08 AM »

thanks kwon; i'm a bit confused on how one can get 5 channels, but mine is a 'macro-acidomics' approach....

slick, are you recording with anyone from down here ? a friend of mine mentioned having tenth row center as well....also, i'm pretty sure that pompano is about 24 seats wide at the 8th row, so at seats 11/12 should be DFC, and close enough to run MS....if you wanna clamp that should be cool, i'm pretty sure this will be a sitdown show until the inevitable 'hoedown' closer/encore...long XLRs might help.

Kwonfidelity · « **Reply #11 on:** January 27, 2004, 10:18:13 AM »

1. Mid
2. Side
3. M+S
4. M-S
5. M&S Panned Matrix (Phase inverted)

There's more to it than that, but you get the idea.
This is a surround matrix I am developing with Tonmeister, to make a single point, realistic soundstage, portable surround set-up. The same concept can be applied to blumlein, with phase inversion - which is the trickiest part of it all.

Swanny · « **Reply #12 on:** January 27, 2004, 11:08:23 AM »

Sorry I was just going by what I've heard on tapes. You can get some phasing, but deffinitely not like you would with cards/hypers. I would like to try the omni center channel on stage. I'll have to see if I can figure out how to get those 5 channels in post sometime.

Kwonfidelity · « **Reply #13 on:** January 27, 2004, 11:12:02 AM »

Quote from: Swanny on January 27, 2004, 11:08:23 AM

Sorry I was just going by what I've heard on tapes. You can get some phasing, but deffinitely not like you would with cards/hypers. I would like to try the omni center channel on stage. I'll have to see if I can figure out how to get those 5 channels in post sometime.

Well that was my point about phasing. You will get less phasing from the m/s than you would from cards/hypers etc where the caps are a coincident stereo and apart from each other. If you get wind noise with m/s, the wind noise will be consistent on both channels. Wind noise on a stereo configuration, not an intensity stereo config, will occur at different times for each mic therefore creating more of an effect.

The 5 channels is cool to experiment with.

Robert

dmonterisi · « **Reply #14 on:** January 27, 2004, 11:15:53 AM »

charles fox' panic redrox tapes from 03 are a good example of using m/s to reduce wind phasing issues.

todd e · « **Reply #15 on:** January 27, 2004, 12:50:45 PM »

yeah, but my raleigh '03 (m/s) from the section are a great example of 'what not to do...' as the wind really picked up that weekend.

wasn't there even a small tornado touchdown? anyways, from as far as I was, there was no way to avoid the phasing issue.

Tim · « **Reply #16 on:** January 27, 2004, 12:54:24 PM »

Quote from: Swanny on January 27, 2004, 11:08:23 AM

Sorry I was just going by what I've heard on tapes. You can get some phasing, but deffinitely not like you would with cards/hypers. I would like to try the omni center channel on stage. I'll have to see if I can figure out how to get those 5 channels in post sometime.

look at the polar patterns of Fig8 and Omni.... I think you would just end up with a big mushy mess. Using a directional mic is the key.

JasonR · « **Reply #17 on:** July 22, 2005, 12:54:56 AM »

Quote from: Tim on January 27, 2004, 12:54:24 PM

Quote from: Swanny on January 27, 2004, 11:08:23 AM
Sorry I was just going by what I've heard on tapes. You can get some phasing, but deffinitely not like you would with cards/hypers. I would like to try the omni center channel on stage. I'll have to see if I can figure out how to get those 5 channels in post sometime.

look at the polar patterns of Fig8 and Omni.... I think you would just end up with a big mushy mess. Using a directional mic is the key.

Mushy Mess - no. What you end up with is along the lines of a pair of coincidently located Cardiods at 180 degrees (ie: one pointed left, one pointed right). Perhaps not that useful for most of what we do, but not a mushy mess at all.

(Sorry for replying to a VERY old thread... just doing some searching and stumbled across this one...)

- Jason

dr.ph0b · « **Reply #18 on:** July 22, 2005, 12:49:45 PM »

Quote from: Jason Reiser on July 22, 2005, 12:54:56 AM

Mushy Mess - no. What you end up with is along the lines of a pair of coincidently located Cardiods at 180 degrees (ie: one pointed left, one pointed right). Perhaps not that useful for most of what we do, but not a mushy mess at all.

(Sorry for replying to a VERY old thread... just doing some searching and stumbled across this one...)

- Jason

haha, likewise, ive been very out of touch lately. i got an email noticification for another thread reply, and anything that says M/S will catch my eye

While I agree with you, that 'mushy mess' is not likely, I do prefer a cardiod for the mid mic. i think its just gives it that full, clean solid baseline, that you can then "color" with the figure8. especially in fob situations, where the cardiod is gonna grab everything coming off the stage. i dont think its possible for a tape made any other way to stack up to a good M/S. (especially when you can 'dial it in' to perfection _after_ the fact!)

JasonR · « **Reply #19 on:** July 22, 2005, 01:02:45 PM »

What do you recommend for doing the M-S > Stereo? I've seen a VST plugin that was free but looked pretty crappy when I tried it. Something that shows width as a ratio would be nice and logical I would think. I can do it 'live' with the 722, but that defeats a lot of the advantage of running M-S to begin with.

- Jason

MattD · « **Reply #20 on:** July 22, 2005, 02:00:43 PM »

Craig T recommended the Waves S1 Imager to me when I asked him. He uses that config more than anyone I know.

kidtexas · « **Reply #21 on:** July 23, 2005, 04:28:06 PM »

Quote from: Jason Reiser on July 22, 2005, 01:02:45 PM

What do you recommend for doing the M-S > Stereo? I've seen a VST plugin that was free but looked pretty crappy when I tried it. Something that shows width as a ratio would be nice and logical I would think. I can do it 'live' with the 722, but that defeats a lot of the advantage of running M-S to begin with.

You can always take LR back through an MS matrix and get MS. Run it through the MS matrix again to get back to LR. This is used in mixing/mastering as a way to adjust stereo mix.

Basically you could do it live in your 722, and if at a later point you were unhappy with it, you could re-MS it in post, fix, then convert it back to LR.

Obviously, if have the time to record it in MS and do it in post later, that is the best way to go.