Topic: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 4)

[tomuo]

I have no issues writing 4 channel files to either of my DR-2d decks using 32gb Sandisk Ultra SD cards, so I have to discount the card as the root of the problem. It just doesn't seem likely. That being said, a buddy of mine is using a 70d with some no name SD card and hasn't had any issues like the ones reported here. So this leads me to believe the unit itself is in question. Real bummer as I like the deck but it just doesn't work...

The DR-2D only records stereo files, so max = 2 when running dual mode.   The DR-680 tested media list shows much the same OK/NG list as the DR-70D, once you get above 2 files, cards just don't keep up.   It is the cards fault, not the deck.
Once a marginal card has been written 100%, you will start to see problems...   Why risk it, stick with the recommended cards.    Any pro would laugh at your preparation if you told them "I'm using an old card that I had lying around that I think will work in this higher channel count recorder".
If there's a card that you really think is fast enough that TASCAM hasn't tested yet, send an email to Custser@teac.com requesting it be tested.    If we see a bunch of common requests, that makes it real easy to pick one up and put it into the schedule.    Complaining that cards that are not on the list are causing problems can only get one reply, why aren't you using cards on the list?

[jbell]

The confirmed listed isn't very large and several people are having this issue.  I haven't heard of the DR680 having this issue so why would it be so common with the 70d??  Your attitude won't help to win over people experiencing problems with their decks.  I've recorded 8 channels with the 680 and never ran into this issue!!  I haven't used mine with the exception of some home testing, but I won't run it without a backup. 

I have no issues writing 4 channel files to either of my DR-2d decks using 32gb Sandisk Ultra SD cards, so I have to discount the card as the root of the problem. It just doesn't seem likely. That being said, a buddy of mine is using a 70d with some no name SD card and hasn't had any issues like the ones reported here. So this leads me to believe the unit itself is in question. Real bummer as I like the deck but it just doesn't work...

The DR-2D only records stereo files, so max = 2 when running dual mode.   The DR-680 tested media list shows much the same OK/NG list as the DR-70D, once you get above 2 files, cards just don't keep up.   It is the cards fault, not the deck.
Once a marginal card has been written 100%, you will start to see problems...   Why risk it, stick with the recommended cards.    Any pro would laugh at your preparation if you told them "I'm using an old card that I had lying around that I think will work in this higher channel count recorder".
If there's a card that you really think is fast enough that TASCAM hasn't tested yet, send an email to Custser@teac.com requesting it be tested.    If we see a bunch of common requests, that makes it real easy to pick one up and put it into the schedule.    Complaining that cards that are not on the list are causing problems can only get one reply, why aren't you using cards on the list?

[morst]

Quoting in entirety in case of future edits:

Background:

Manufacturer's SD card speed ratings are only true when you write one file to it, and let the card clean itself up with inactivity every few minutes.
This is always the case in a camera, whether in still or video mode.
For PCM audio in the DR-60D or DR-70D, you've got 2 or 4 files being written at once, i.e. the write position on the SD card is jumping around between
up to 4 different locations, and the writes never stop.   SD card manufacturers rarely optimize for this case, which is why many cards end up on the
tested media list as "don't use".
The performance of the card is the problem.  The DR-70D can't reduce the number of files written at once,  that's it's reason for existing, the individual files.

A few messages here just say "Sandisk 32GB".    Sandisk has many different series of SD card. 

If a card worked once but is now not working, that's exactely the point - solid state media gets into a state where it needs constant erases and writes
instead of writes to already empty clusters.    TASCAM tests media to this point to know if it's good enough, not just the fresh from the package condition.

Some SD cards, class 10 or not, drop to <1MB/sec when they have been well used. They're just not fast enough.    The tested media list is there for a reason.

Watch out for counterfit cards as well - even a simple rebadge of a cheaper card with a sandisk label for stuff on eBay.

I have no issues writing 4 channel files to either of my DR-2d decks using 32gb Sandisk Ultra SD cards, so I have to discount the card as the root of the problem. It just doesn't seem likely. That being said, a buddy of mine is using a 70d with some no name SD card and hasn't had any issues like the ones reported here. So this leads me to believe the unit itself is in question. Real bummer as I like the deck but it just doesn't work...

The DR-2D only records stereo files, so max = 2 when running dual mode.   The DR-680 tested media list shows much the same OK/NG list as the DR-70D, once you get above 2 files, cards just don't keep up.   It is the cards fault, not the deck.
Once a marginal card has been written 100%, you will start to see problems...   Why risk it, stick with the recommended cards.    Any pro would laugh at your preparation if you told them "I'm using an old card that I had lying around that I think will work in this higher channel count recorder".
If there's a card that you really think is fast enough that TASCAM hasn't tested yet, send an email to Custser@teac.com requesting it be tested.    If we see a bunch of common requests, that makes it real easy to pick one up and put it into the schedule.    Complaining that cards that are not on the list are causing problems can only get one reply, why aren't you using cards on the list?

[tomuo]

The confirmed listed isn't very large and several people are having this issue.  I haven't heard of the DR680 having this issue so why would it be so common with the 70d?? 

There should be a new tested list due out (last one was Februrary, mostly done every 6 months), I agree that 11 cards tested is too few.
The DR-680 has been out a long time, the larger channel count means people only buy the larger cards that have been out that long, and users have probably been sticking with known good cards.
Again, let us know what cards you have that you expect to work that don't.    The choice is much larger now than it was when the DR-680 came out.

Also, what is the comon problem, I couldn't find a single report here which told me exactely what card they used and what problem they ran into?   I see a lot of posts piling on the negativity, but nothing I can get real info from.

[morst]

has anyone had the glitch issue with one of Tascam's short list of confirmed good cards?

It's unfortunate that none of the cards are available in the USA, only in Japan. Not  very happy right now, I just purchased some cards from B & H that are supposed to work, but they are not the japanese cards on the list:
http://tascam.com/product/dr-70d/specifications/

The confirmed listed isn't very large and several people are having this issue.  I haven't heard of the DR680 having this issue so why would it be so common with the 70d?? 

There should be a new tested list due out (last one was Februrary, mostly done every 6 months), I agree that 11 cards tested is too few.
The DR-680 has been out a long time, the larger channel count means people only buy the larger cards that have been out that long, and users have probably been sticking with known good cards.
Again, let us know what cards you have that you expect to work that don't.    The choice is much larger now than it was when the DR-680 came out.

Also, what is the comon problem, I couldn't find a single report here which told me exactely what card they used and what problem they ran into?   I see a lot of posts piling on the negativity, but nothing I can get real info from.

ok let me sum up:

First known issue was with an ADATA card, not on the approved list, so of course that's not Tascam's fault.

Second known issue was with a SANDISK card, also not on the approved list, so if course that's not Tascam's fault.

Tomuo - how much will you compensate me for doing research that TASCAM should be doing? Will my slave labor make your recorder work?

[morst]

I am a consumer in this case, you are going to see continued piling on of negativity from my end until this problem is resolved to my satisfaction.


My first bad write was on this card:
A­DATA 16 GB SDHC Class 6 Flash Memory Card 16GSDHC6 (Blue)
purchased in August of 2009 from Amazon.com
The card has been heavily used, and may have been formatted in my Panasonic camera before use in the Tascam. The error I found was a failure to write glitch-free files in 4-channel operation at 24/48.

My second bad write was on this card:
SanDisk Ultra SDHC I CL10 30MB/Sec with a black, white, red and metallic silver label
That was attempting to have the DR-70D write a single stereo file at 24/48

There should be a new tested list due out (last one was Februrary, mostly done every 6 months), I agree that 11 cards tested is too few.
The DR-680 has been out a long time, the larger channel count means people only buy the larger cards that have been out that long, and users have probably been sticking with known good cards.
Again, let us know what cards you have that you expect to work that don't.    The choice is much larger now than it was when the DR-680 came out.

Also, what is the comon problem, I couldn't find a single report here which told me exactely what card they used and what problem they ran into?   I see a lot of posts piling on the negativity, but nothing I can get real info from.

[tomuo]

has anyone had the glitch issue with one of Tascam's short list of confirmed good cards?

It's unfortunate that none of the cards are available in the USA, only in Japan. Not  very happy right now, I just purchased some cards from B & H that are supposed to work, but they are not the japanese cards on the list:
http://tascam.com/product/dr-70d/specifications/

Check the PDF list here:
http://tascam.com/content/downloads/products/867/dr-70d_tested_media_list_r1_20150224.pdf

Sandisk and Panasonic label their cards with the original purchase area, so we re-publish the info in this pdf with the US equivalent.
This caused confusion in the past, we certainly don't expect you to go out-of-market to get the Japanese labelled card; they are the same, only the packaging is different.

[jbell]

I used a cheap Trancend 32gig card in my DR680, R-44, and Sony PCM D100 without issue, but it won't work on the 70d because it won't keep up.  That doesn't make since to me.  This is the card I have been using in several recorders and running 4 plus channels with no issue.  It isn't on the approved media list for the DR680.  Starting to regret selling my R44

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/transcend-32gb-sdhc-class-10-uhs-i-memory-card-blue/8932739.p?id=1218955961432&skuId=8932739

[voltronic]

Background:

Manufacturer's SD card speed ratings are only true when you write one file to it, and let the card clean itself up with inactivity every few minutes.
This is always the case in a camera, whether in still or video mode.
For PCM audio in the DR-60D or DR-70D, you've got 2 or 4 files being written at once, i.e. the write position on the SD card is jumping around between
up to 4 different locations, and the writes never stop.   SD card manufacturers rarely optimize for this case, which is why many cards end up on the
tested media list as "don't use".
The performance of the card is the problem.  The DR-70D can't reduce the number of files written at once,  that's it's reason for existing, the individual files.

A few messages here just say "Sandisk 32GB".    Sandisk has many different series of SD card. 

If a card worked once but is now not working, that's exactely the point - solid state media gets into a state where it needs constant erases and writes
instead of writes to already empty clusters.    TASCAM tests media to this point to know if it's good enough, not just the fresh from the package condition.

Some SD cards, class 10 or not, drop to <1MB/sec when they have been well used. They're just not fast enough.    The tested media list is there for a reason.

Watch out for counterfit cards as well - even a simple rebadge of a cheaper card with a sandisk label for stuff on eBay.

Thanks - this is very useful information, and confirms my suspicion that a multi-channel audio recorder may be more taxing on a card than other devices.

That said, I think a situation described by jbell of a card that works fine recording 4 channels in other recorders but not in the 70D might call for closer examination.  But the age of the card comes into play also - flash memory does have a limited life span, and SD cards do not employ wear leveling as far as I know, which is used to extend the life of SSD drives.

One frustration about the existing approved media list is that it does not include any of the higher-capacity cards which the 70D is supposed to support.  Hopefully there are some in the test pipeline.

[morst]

The DR-70D is advertised as supporting up to 128GB cards. But also they are not supported.

Bait? Meet SWITCH!

One frustration about the existing approved media list is that it does not include any of the higher-capacity cards which the 70D is supposed to support.  Hopefully there are some in the test pipeline.

[stevetoney]

Complaining that cards that are not on the list are causing problems can only get one reply, why aren't you using cards on the list?

Tomuo.  Thanks for the responses.  It's nice for you to come in here and address these issues directly with us.

In response to the part of your response that I quoted above, I have a question...you are marketing the unit as being compatible with SDXC cards up to 128gb size.  If card speed is the only issue, then why are there no SDXC cards on the list?

[willndmb]

I have no issues writing 4 channel files to either of my DR-2d decks using 32gb Sandisk Ultra SD cards, so I have to discount the card as the root of the problem. It just doesn't seem likely. That being said, a buddy of mine is using a 70d with some no name SD card and hasn't had any issues like the ones reported here. So this leads me to believe the unit itself is in question. Real bummer as I like the deck but it just doesn't work...

The DR-2D only records stereo files, so max = 2 when running dual mode.   The DR-680 tested media list shows much the same OK/NG list as the DR-70D, once you get above 2 files, cards just don't keep up.   It is the cards fault, not the deck.
Once a marginal card has been written 100%, you will start to see problems...   Why risk it, stick with the recommended cards.    Any pro would laugh at your preparation if you told them "I'm using an old card that I had lying around that I think will work in this higher channel count recorder".
If there's a card that you really think is fast enough that TASCAM hasn't tested yet, send an email to Custser@teac.com requesting it be tested.    If we see a bunch of common requests, that makes it real easy to pick one up and put it into the schedule.    Complaining that cards that are not on the list are causing problems can only get one reply, why aren't you using cards on the list?

appreciate the response but it is a BS one IMO.
My question to your response "why aren't you using cards on the list?" is...
Why advertise "your" recorder as handling up to 128gb cards but none over 32 are on the approved list of cards that work.

Edit looks like many great minds think alike
 

[morst]

appreciate the response but it is a BS one IMO.
My question to your response "why aren't you using cards on the list?" is...
Why advertise "your" recorder as handling up to 128gb cards but none over 32 are on the approved list of cards that work.

May I conjecture?! 

1. accidental hardware or firmware bug that escaped past quality control, if firmware, it can be discovered & fixed.
2. shortsightedness? Somehow the machine got to market before they noticed the issues with the failing cards? SD cards are fairly reliable, perhaps something was taken for granted?
3. willingness to risk a class action lawsuit in order to drive sales? I'm in a crabby mood about this DR-70D with the glitch errors, and I do not depend on Tascam for user support on any other products, so I have little to lose by suggesting this.
4. Something Happened To 'Em, Man!?
5. Conspiracy to prevent mastering certain events... ALIENS!!!   

[morst]

ANY PRO WOULD LAUGH AT YOUR CUSTOMER SERVICE, IF IT WENT VIRAL THAT YOU SAID THIS!!!!

...

  Any pro would laugh at your preparation if you told them "I'm using an old card that I had lying around that I think will work in this higher channel count recorder".
If there's a card that you really think is fast enough that TASCAM hasn't tested yet, send an email to Custser@teac.com requesting it be tested.    If we see a bunch of common requests, that makes it real easy to pick one up and put it into the schedule.    Complaining that cards that are not on the list are causing problems can only get one reply, why aren't you using cards on the list?

Um, because if I had not read your response today, I would have been trying to search Japanese-language websites for Japanese-packaged SanDisk cards!?!?! *!

Please test these cards, I want to be sure that they all work in my recorder.

Lexar Professional, LSD32GCRBNA600BN, 32GB, CL10, UHS-1, SDHC I, 90 MB/s
ADATA Premier, ASDH16GUICL10-R, 16GB, CL10, UHS-1, SDHC I,  50 MB/s
SanDisk Ultra, SDSDUN-016G-G46, 16GB, CL10, UHS-1 SDHC I, 40 MB/s
Sony  SF-32UY2, SF32UY2/TQ, 32GB, CL10, UHS-1 SDHC I, 70 MB/s
SanDisk Extreme, SDSDXN-032-G46, 32GB, CL10, UHS-3, SDHC I, 60MB/s
SanDisk Ultra, SDSDQUA-016G-U46A, 16GB, CL10, MicroSDHC I, 30MB/s
Kingston SDC4/8GB, 8GB, CL4, MicroSDHC, 4MB/s
Transcend TS8GSDHC6, 8GB, CL6, SDHC,
Transcend TS8GSDHC10, 10GB, CL10, SDHC

Also, how about listing some USA cards on your website, not just the Japan versions?

Thank you,

a DR-70D owner

from http://tascam.com/product/dr-70d/specifications/
Recording media   SD card(64MB to 2GB), SDHC card(4GB to 32GB), SDXC card(48GB to 128GB)

(Inline image 1)

At some point this will probably be forwarded to the Attornies General of California, and of the United States Of America, as well as the Better Business Bureau, Fraud.org, The Federal Trade Commission, my representatives in US Congress, the California State Legislature, B & H Photo from whom I purchased the DR-70D, and my own lawyer.

I hope you can find me a solution which makes all of that unnecessary. Otherwise, you may wish to consider the ramifications of a class action lawsuit upon your business!

Thanks for taking the time to address my concerns.

Sincerely,
A First-Time Tascam Customer

[noahbickart]

Can anyone confirm that they've had problems with one of the cards on the approved list?

If not, 32gigs is over 7 hours for 4 channels at 24/96. That's more than enough for me.

Also, I understand that people are angry, but I think we need a little perspective:

1. It's a $200 deck. Made for camera audio. We're assuming that it will be competition for a 744. That's crazy.

2. Threatening the tascam rep with a class action lawsuit is a sure way to get him to disappear.

3. It's ok to be frustrated. By be nice!