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Author Topic: Taking my first HT plunge...  (Read 3403 times)

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Offline Nick's Picks

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Taking my first HT plunge...
« on: December 13, 2009, 11:00:56 AM »
so i'm rebuilding my system....,
sold the DAC and the Stingray.  Kept my Oppo universal and my TT/phono preamp..and the Tyler Ref. Mons.

the new brains of the outfit
- Cambridge Audio 640R receiver.  7.1ch 7x100w (discrete amps/boards for each channel).
- same DAC as their DAC magic (at least in terms of the DAC chip and features, 24/192 up-sampling)
- DVI switching. (no up sample, just a clean switch from any video input to the dedicated DVI output).
- REMOTE !!!!, (i've been w/o for a while w/my Stingray and the system prior).

We watch a lot of movies these days, especially the kids.  so this should fit the bill.

Best part...
when you set it up for 2chan only, it re-routes some of the power and gives you 120wpc for the front pair, defeating the features of the other 5 channels.   I've listened to a lot of their Integrated amps, and have always been very impressed with what I heard (especially considering that these are very reasonably priced products...when compared to others).  I've read nothing but A+ reviews on this unit..., so we'll see.
I"ll be appreciating the added 80wpc of power over my Stingray.  Thats for sure.

I have an offer in for an Epos EL-3C center channel on Agon.  Just need to pick up some rear surrounds (any input?).  I'm not using a sub, as the Tylers are more than capable of handling dinosaur footsteps.   The 640r allows you to kill the sub and route that info to the main pair.  So..no problem there.

I'm sort of excited.  I have never owned a home theater before.  Let alone a "decent" one ..., i'm just satisfied knowing that this receiver is just as musically orientated as it is for multi-channel movies.
Guess I'll finally get ot hear what those multi-chan SACDs sound like.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Taking my first HT plunge...
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2010, 08:51:05 PM »
I'm no expert and home theater isn't my focus, but I've really gotten into surround recording of music and have played around alot with playback for editing and my own enjooyment.  I'm using an inexpensive Panasonic class-D HT reviever that sounds way better than it has any right to.  Similar to your Cambridge in function: 7x100wpc which auto-bridges amps for stereo or bi-amps if you biwire the mains using both the A and B terminals.  I figured I would have upgraded it to something superior by now but it's good enough that I haven't bothered yet, even driving multiple juice hungry speakers.

I'd start by using any decent old speakers you may have on the sides and rear.  When a better pair arrives, I tend rotate the older ones towards the back of the room, keeping them in symetrical pairs.  Figure out where the placement works best (just as important as with the main stereo speaker pair or as with mics- optimizing location ,location, location is more important than most everything else).  Do the level and distance set-up thing on the receiver and balance the tone as best you can to match them to the fronts if there are L-pads on the speakers back there.  The distance/time adjustment is critical to good results IMO, the level you can adjust by ear with pinknoise, or pull out the sound level meter, but it's easy enough to hear when its too loud or soft.  When you figure out the side & back speaker locations that work best within the compromises to be made you'll have a better idea of what kind/size/shape of dedicated speakers to look for.

As for what speakers to buy at that point I'm not much help. I will say something on the dipole vs bipole vs monopole thing: I bought some second-hand B&W surround speakers for two reasons:1) they were  a bit more likey to tonally match my B&W mains and included a tweeter level adjustment switches 2) they are dipole / monopole switchable so I could play around with that.  I found their tone was the most important thing to match and that the dipole setting always sounded less transparent & slightly rolled off in the treble, regardless of the treble boost setting.  I thought I would prefer the dipole surround setting, since for me, the key aspect of surround (music or cinema) is just that- the surrounding sense of immersion throughout the room.  But I keep them in monopole primarily to keep the treble balance even throughout the room. 

The problem then is that as monopoles, the surround speakers become much more easily identifiable as widley spaced, point source reproducers of sound.  They sound like a couple speakers sitting somewhere back there to the sides. To compensate and 'fill the big gaps', I've sort of gone the big theater route by using multiple, paralleled  speakers on each side to illuminate the room more evenly and diffuse the side surround a bit.  So the 2 B&W surrounds are wired in parallel with some Klipsh bookshelves and the Panny has no problem with the 3-4 ohm load.  Im only driving one  center rear speaker, partially because the room is setup on a diagonal, partially because I'm using the other as my front center identical to my mains. 

So I end up with 8 speakers around the room (not counting the ones which aren't hooked up, sitting in corners or acting as end tables ;)) driven by 6 amp channels: three matched floor-standers across the front, the Klipsh pair directly to the sides at 90 degrees, the B&W surround speakers at about 135 degrees an a single B&W802M in back at 180degrees which matches the three in front.  Yes it's  hodgepodge, but it works really well and importantly to my ears, you can't easily identify the sound as coming directly from any of the surround speakers, it just envelops the listeners, even if they sit sideways, just like at an actual music event or movie theater.  Yet there is plenty of directionality for movie wiz bang effects in specific locations.  It sounds right.

Way to many words there.  To sum up my experience I'll just say that speaker location is the key thing, try to get them far enough away and evenly arranged around the space.  Getting an even tonal balance is second, and having surround speakers that can reach low enough is third- the real sense of envelopment and one of the biggest benefits of surround comes from the great dimentional aspect which multi-channel reproduction imparts to the bass (not the lowest octave sub rumble stuff, I don't have a sub either, but the real bass a few octaves above that).

It's cool hearing the crowd applause erupt all around the room.  Email DPA for their excellently recorded free surround sampler, find that Alan Parsons DSOTM quad mix and give it a listen, rediscover the music all over again.
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Offline fozzy

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Re: Taking my first HT plunge...
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2010, 09:19:32 PM »
what is your budget for rears? 

your can get a pretty good deal on B&W 600S or 601S via agone
805s come up for under 2k from time to time

do you have space limitations.  will these need to be on stands, wall/ceiling/in-wall mounted?

There are also several Dynaudio options that can fit any budget
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Offline sparkey

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Re: Taking my first HT plunge...
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2010, 08:59:56 AM »
- REMOTE !!!!, (i've been w/o for a while w/my Stingray and the system prior).

After years of wanting one, I just bought a MX-850 with the RF repeater from Ebay.  If you can find a MX-800 they then to go much cheaper, as people don't search that model number and it is the same device (I think).  I prefer this model to the newer one, as the design and tactile buttons are more comfortable and it is easier to use in the dark.

Josh
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Offline Nick's Picks

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Re: Taking my first HT plunge...
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2010, 09:24:52 AM »
I lucked out.
I found two matched pairs (4 speakers in total) of PSB Alpha's in a local pawn shop.  someone else's surround setup gone to pawn...
bought all 4 for $80.   they work great, sound great..etc.

I am using two as my rears, and two on my PC running out of my Dayton T amp.  they sound freakin' great.

I dont have much for surround music, outside of a great 5.1 remix of a quad LP of Zappa's "Apostrophe".  other than that, just movies get used for surround.  music is two channel as a limitation of source material only.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Taking my first HT plunge...
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2010, 09:37:09 AM »
Nice score.

Even if you don't leave them in there, you might try the other two in there as well, just for grins and to get a feel for what spreading the ambience around the room evenly can do.

..says the omni guy to the X/Y man. 

[edit- I bet that Apposttrophe remix sounds sweet!  there's lot to work with in there]
« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 09:42:19 AM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Nick's Picks

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Re: Taking my first HT plunge...
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2010, 10:26:16 AM »
:)
I dont have any source material that would correctly utilize 7.1

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Re: Taking my first HT plunge...
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2010, 10:55:56 AM »
no body does, do they?  is there actually anything out there in 7.1?  arent most folks with 7.1 setup just letting the processor do the decoding from a 5.1 source?
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Offline sparkey

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Re: Taking my first HT plunge...
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2010, 12:51:22 PM »
:)
I dont have any source material that would correctly utilize 7.1

Sure ya do, two channels to drive speakers in a 2nd zone of the house
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Taking my first HT plunge...
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2010, 01:28:39 PM »
no body does, do they?  is there actually anything out there in 7.1?  arent most folks with 7.1 setup just letting the processor do the decoding from a 5.1 source?

Yup.

The processor does something to decorelate the existing surround channel info and matrix it to the additional channels.  There are some films with 6.1 sound that add a discrete rear, via Dolby-EX / DTS-EX or something like that (I think its called).  The HD HDMI/Dolby/DTS/Bluray specs support 8 channels or more I think but there isn't any content that uses that AFAIK.

But even without any of that, additional speakers help to evenly illuminate the room and reduce the focus on any one speaker.  Look at any commercial theater, there are multiple surround speakers along each wall, each of which reproduce the same signal.  The goal of the surround speakers is different than the front speakers: less emphasis on pinpoint phantom imaging and more value on a seemless ambience, although it's a shades of grey differentiation and not a hard line difference.

By example: My current surround recordings are 4 channel: Left, Right, Center, Back.  The front three speakers get their own discrete channels and the Back signal is mult'd to the 5 surround speakers.  They all get the same signal and it works quite well.  If I only feed the single rear center, sending a dicrete signal to each of 4 exactly matched speakers and turn the other 4 side surrounds off, the glorious room ambience collapses and the single rear stricks out like a sore thumb.  I'd rather just listen to the front three alone. I do plan to look farther into post production techiques I can use to split that single Back channel into two (or more) somewhat decorelated surround channels, once I figure out how to process and package these recordings for other than just listening to them myself at home straight off the recorder or from the DAW. 

[edit- my hope in doing that is that I can make it sound even better and further increase the sweet spot, but honesty I was rather amazed that all those surround speakers reproducing just one channel of information sounded so good. The surround portion doesn't seem 'mono-sounding' at all]
« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 03:03:53 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

 

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