Topic: Power Conditioners...initial observations

[Daryan]

I was always quite sceptical about the use of these things, especially since audiophile grade pc's start at around a grand for units that get the best revfiews.  So, I did a little reading, and found that oneac as well as powervar units are readily availible on ebay at a fraction of the cost, like 10 cents on the dollar, and perform quite well.  I bought the cheapest one I could, maybe 25 bucks, and figured what the hell, and gave it a go.  It kind of satu here in the condo for at least a wekk as I wasn't all that motivated to even plug it in to be honest.  Well, I finally did so tonight and all I can say is wow.  I had no clue how much electrical noise is present in a playback system until plugging this sucker in.  The background immediately got blacker, and my amp is known for a black background, so I was honestly very shocked. The improveent was hit-you-in-the-face obvious too.  The only concern I have is that I feel I lost an almmost inaudible, but since I am so used to it I could hear it, in the upper end of the spectrum.  I have read that most pc's cause a problem or two but improve a bunch, is this kind of what they were talking about?  Anyway, just thought i would share my thoughts.  I am going to replace the receptacles, rewire ir, bypass a couple led's, and the unit is supposed to sound even better.  I will report back.  Best 25 bucks I have ever spent on the rig!

[ducati]

This is what folks are talking about.  Power Conditioners, in my experience, always color the sound to one degree or another.  Depending upon your power source, the benefits can either outweigh the negatives or the other way around.  Rolled off highs can certainly happen, as can reduced dynamics (especially when plugging an amp into a conditioner).  In my case, the negatives have always outweighed the positives over an extended audition.  It's really tough to find a power conditioner that improves the sound of an amp, IMO.

I had very good luck (sonically) with the PS Audio P300 power regenerator (only on front-end)...  But then it blew up my CDP!

The best investment you can make, period, is to wire at least 2 dedicated circuits to your rack.  Run analog (pre, power amp) off one, digital off another.

That said...  If you have to plug other gear into the digital outlet (HT gear), put it on a power strip and shut the power strip off when listening to the hifi--that stuff can send grunge back into your power line, and in my experience affects the sound very negatively--and this is the very stuff Power Conditioners try to clean.  Might as well start with the cleanest power possible!

These conditioners are certainly cheap enough to try...  I am going to try the Shunyata stuff soon (I have heard good things from folks I respect) and if I end up preferring conditioned vs. non-conditioned I'll try one of these, too.

[Daryan]

I definately noticed limited dynamics, I just wasn't sure how to put it into words until this morning when I read your post.  Great observation.  Is there a power type conditioning unit that doesn't limit dynamics?  I wonder if when I mod this unit will the limited dynamics disappear?  Only one way to find out I guess.  I am going to switch out the receptacle for hospital grade cryo'd hubell units and see what happens.  Then, maybe some dampening material, bypass the leds toquiet it down a bit, replace the stiock wiring with military grade teflon copper/silver etc.

[ducati]

I think the only way to diminish the limited dynamics is to have a better power supply, one that has more energy storage.  But just adding caps won't usually help--you have to be a bit smart about the design.

The problem with most forms of power conditioning is they insert *something* between the power and your unit.  That something is usually designed to filter out noise (as well as usually protecting against spikes).  That filter, by nature, is restrictive...  Amplifiers tend to have limited dynamics when plugged into a power conditioner for the simple fact that they ask for power, and the power can't get through quickly enough.  Some amplifiers can blow a 15A circuit breaker--that's a hell of a lot of current!  The filter must be designed for this, and to tell you the truth I don't know if a filter could ever offer this.

There are filters that companies claim do not affect amplifier current draw...  But in reality ALL power conditioning companies claim the same thing and I haven't found one that delivers (caveat--I have certainly not tried all of them!).

There are also power conditioners that don't have anything inline with the power feed.  They use inductors, or other methods, to affect the power chain.  These devices are outside my realm of experience and understanding so I will not comment on them.

My dealer claims the Shunyata Hydra equipment provides the clearest highs he's ever heard--meaning the tweeter is receiving (and producing) less grunge and distortion.  He also claims the Shunyata stuff cleans up and works on everything from power amps to CDPs.  I have not auditioned it in a controlled environment, so I cannot comment on this.  However, I will say he sold PS Audio, Monster, Audio Power, and the like for years...  And always claimed they were "great" too.  I will make up my own mind upon hearing them

All I know is my experiences with power conditioning have generally been one of some improvement, some steps back.  The only two things that have ever offered 100% improvement to me were PS Audio P300 ($$$) on the front-end (amp into the wall), and running 2 dedicated circuits (cheap). 

[Tim]

hmmm.... I certainly can't say that I've noticed the dynamics of my amp being limited but tonight I may play around and do some comparisons.

interesting thoughts ducati, thanks for sharing!

[ducati]

Limited dynamics are not the only negative power conditioning can have.  It really varies based upon your power quality, your amplifier requirements, other things plugged in the chain, the power conditioning device, etc.  Limited dynamics are just something I notice more often than not. 

Other things I have noted with power conditioning in play are rolled off highs, softer bass, grainy mids or highs, and a lessening of the 3-d soundstaging effect. 

Like I said, tho, I haven't tried all power conditioning devices.  In *my* rig, the best sound was obtained simply by running 2 separate circuits.  The HUGE deal about this I think was the fact all the grunge from household appliances, lights, TV, etc. don't sit on the audio power line anymore.

I think furutech doesn't have an inline filter?  Isn't that a company similar to shunyata, who uses very little in those conditioner boxes?

[Tim]

I believe so, yes.

[ducati]

Cool. 

Do you have dedicated circuits run?

[Tim]

Cool.

Do you have dedicated circuits run?

I wish. I'm in an apartment, a big apartment but an apartment nonetheless. I can't wait to get into a house and be able to run dedicated circuits...

edit: you know, now that I think about it I wonder if I could get clearance to run a dedicated circuit for my audio gear? or if it is even feasible in an apartment

[ducati]

It is possible but depends very much on the apartment configuration, I'd bet.  If you have access to your electrical box, I'd be tempted to just do it.  No one would know 

Ok I know this sounds crazy but to do the best test, unplug any TV, Cable Box, DVD-Player, CD Players other than the one used, Coax connection, Telephone, Microwave, anything with a wall-wart, anything that has digital equipment inside.  If you have dimmer switches, turn those lights off.  If you have any flourescents, turn those off.  That's about as close as you could get to dedicated circuits.

Let us know what you think, before and after.  Make sure you allow your amp/equipment to warm up for each...  My tubed stuff needs at least 30 mins, my digital rig takes days to warmup...  but you gotta do with what ya have 

I'm intrigued to find out your results.

[ducati]

FWIW, I found this on the furutech page...  It seems the idea is some coating inside the box that is designed to absorb electromagnetic inteference.  There are no filters in this unit.

This newly developed component is designed for setting today`s common problem of AV equipment`s inability to perform at its peak level due to contaminated electrical power.

Rating：
VOLTAGE AC 125V 50/60Hz
FUSE CURRENT 15 A

Features：
Like antenna receives radio waves, the GC-303, in a non-contact way, effectively absorbs the electromagnetic waves conducted by all of the internal fittings; and skillfully avoids the degradation of audio quality that are commonly occurred to traditional power filters as electricity currents are filtered through a series of passive components. This is so-called “antenna effects” of GC-303.
GC-303 is attached to the chassis using special EPOXY resin, which is completely free of coming off and absolutely safe.
*GC-303 is the special material paved on the chassis for absorbing electromagnetic waves.
‧Vertical noise filters that could cause degradation to audio quality and horizontal Noise filters that could cause negative side effects to audio quality are absolutely not used in the direct outlets, because as the electricity currents pass filters, audio output becomes less leaping and less powerful.
‧The brand new theory of noise processing that is applied to this product is to deliver the pure electricity using GC-303 to absorb noises in a non-contact way and the aluminum materials at aviation industry level to effectively shields off the invasion of foreign noises.
Alloy aluminum at aviation industry level: completely shields the invasion of radioactive noise.
GC-303: absorbs and reduces the conductible noises transmitted via the conductor wires and the fittings

[Tim]

It is possible but depends very much on the apartment configuration, I'd bet. If you have access to your electrical box, I'd be tempted to just do it. No one would know

Ok I know this sounds crazy but to do the best test, unplug any TV, Cable Box, DVD-Player, CD Players other than the one used, Coax connection, Telephone, Microwave, anything with a wall-wart, anything that has digital equipment inside. If you have dimmer switches, turn those lights off. If you have any flourescents, turn those off. That's about as close as you could get to dedicated circuits.

Let us know what you think, before and after. Make sure you allow your amp/equipment to warm up for each... My tubed stuff needs at least 30 mins, my digital rig takes days to warmup... but you gotta do with what ya have

I'm intrigued to find out your results.

I'm on it... should be interesting.

and my tube amp takes a good 30 minutes too.... I often call ahead if Sara is at home and have her flip it on for me, she loves that

as for the furutech, cervin and I went through this in another thread the other day.... yep, the furutech uses some sort of crazy epoxy. I don't know why it works, I just know that it does!

[scervin]

Yeah,  I think the idea is that it rejects ECM type stuff but doesn'tdo the same thing as a Richard Gray or the like with filters in the path.  Me personally, once I pull the trigger on a universal or CDP plan to snag a PP300 off agon.  I ran two dedicated lines to my rack to put the analog on one and all the rest on the other.  You bet I'll have some type of surge protector like the UO conncected, but nothing else for the analog stuff.  I will say that I don't expect as big of an improvement with a pc than running the dedicated lines, it was just that much better.  Understand your situation though Tim, and it sounds like you have found a good way to clean it up.

sc

[Tim]

it's working out well.. thanks scott

[ducati]

I'm on it... should be interesting.

and my tube amp takes a good 30 minutes too.... I often call ahead if Sara is at home and have her flip it on for me, she loves that

Oh, man, I thought I was the only one that did that!!      

[Tim]

ha! I'll let her know that she's not alone!

[ducati]

Better is relative.  Better sounding?  Yes.  Better MTBF?  Yes.  Cold start *is* hard on tubes.

But remember, you're burning tube life.  And you'll burn through power tubes every 80 days or so!!!   

[Tim]

my amp can get pretty damn warm... it's ventilated pretty well but those tubes get HOT

[Frank M]

a thread highjacking,....

ok tube d00ds, a powering question for you.

Wouldn't it be better to leave the amps on rather than having to deal with a cold start each time?
It seems to me that the distortion of the hot/cold cycle would be really hard on the tubes?? (remember, I know very little about tube amps).

Tubed power amps should be turned off when not in use. 

Tubes have a limited life span.  There's a coating on the filament that throws off electrons when heated, but doesn't last forever.  Also, you don't want anything that hot sitting around when you're not home!

[cheshirecat]

There was a huge thread over at AA about this, I'll post if I can find it.  Yeah it takes the guy a while to warm up, but when you leave it running your killing tube life and also leaving yourself open to a fire risk (i assume more of an issue with vintage gear, but the same ideas apply in modern gear so maybe not).  The last thing you want is for something to go bad (tube, cap, whatever) in the amp and have it run away when you're not around.

From what I've read SS rectification in tube amps is particularly hard on amps at turn on because the plate current is nearly instantly there before the filaments have warmed up.  Mine uses a tube rectifier so things are a little easier on the amp, works like a built in standby switch.  The amp starts up as >> heaters come on, tubes begin to warm, when the rectifier has warmed up, DC plate current is passed, then bias voltage comes up (delay is varied by the size of the caps in the circuits that need to charge before passing current).  I think thats right, but the basic point is that until the tubes are warm, they're not seeing any plate current because its not getting through the rectifier.

[BCostigan]

It is possible but depends very much on the apartment configuration, I'd bet.  If you have access to your electrical box, I'd be tempted to just do it.  No one would know 
.

No one would know unless the place burnt down because of Tim's wiring.    Not worth it Timmay....especially in an apt. with other families living in the building etc.


I find this thread pretty amusing actually.  Any good power conditioner will have an isolation transformer built in.  As the name suggests is pysically isolates your power source from the rest of your house/world.  All it is really is a 1:1 induction transformer but will minimize noise and volatge spikes/drops because it's not *pysically* connected to the system.   These suckers are pricey though......best I found is about $400 for the xfmer rated for 20A. 

To me, the advantage of using an isolation xfmer is there are no gadgets or devices that will alter the waveform (some talk of power conditioners coloring the sound). 


I do think removing noise is a bit of a sisyphean task....there are just SO MANY variables that come into play that attaining the ultimate goal can be elusive.


As always...if anyone is planning on doing some home wiring feel free to PM me with any questions! I'd be happy to give people some pointers.  I play with wires all day long! 

[Frank M]

These suckers are pricey though......best I found is about $400 for the xfmer rated for 20A. 

Good iron is never cheap.  Alpha-Core offers a Sequerra-designed 8-outlet, 1000W model for $900. 

http://www.alphacore.com/power%20supply.html

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

that is the same concept as this: http://www.bluecircle.com/index.php?menu_id=2724 and the 1200 watt unit is similar price.

I've been using a MR1200 for about 2 years.  Made a huge improvement - i didn't realize I had audible backgound noise until I installed this thing.

edit:  these things can be had for 500-600 on audiogon if you are patient.  They come up rarely; a wanted ad is how I got mine.

[ducati]

It is possible but depends very much on the apartment configuration, I'd bet.  If you have access to your electrical box, I'd be tempted to just do it.  No one would know 
.

No one would know unless the place burnt down because of Tim's wiring.    Not worth it Timmay....especially in an apt. with other families living in the building etc.

I, of course, assumed that he would consult outside help if he wasn't qualified.

[BCostigan]

It is possible but depends very much on the apartment configuration, I'd bet.  If you have access to your electrical box, I'd be tempted to just do it.  No one would know 
.

No one would know unless the place burnt down because of Tim's wiring.    Not worth it Timmay....especially in an apt. with other families living in the building etc.

I, of course, assumed that he would consult outside help if he wasn't qualified.

Wasn't trying to flame you!     Just wanted to make the obvious clear in the off chance it wasn't.

[ducati]

That is a good thing to point out, tho, and I'm glad you did.

Power is NOT something to mess around with if you don't feel qualified!!  AC power and the inside of tube amps--stay away if you don't know what you're doing

So..............................  I'm wondering how the Furutech vs. wallplate shootout went.

[Tim]

So.............................. I'm wondering how the Furutech vs. wallplate shootout went.

delayed thanks to my tube difficulties. Perhaps I can interest Jonny in lending an ear to such a shootout tonight

[scervin]

I was worried for a couple months as I did all my own electric.  Just did simple stuff and I'm a ME with some circuits knowledge as it was required.  I also took a semester class on the NEC (National Electric Code) to meet the 12 credits needed to be covered under BCBS of MI.  It was an awesome class and used much of what I learned there in the basement (load calculations, outlet spacing, GFCI's, etc.)  One demonstration on GFCI's was the prof dropped a hair dryer in a metal bucket with salt water and lit a 75W bulb connected to the bucket with wire and alligator clips.  You could put your hand in the water as it was running as well because the electricity had a place to go.  He then hooked a GFCI up and showed how it cut everything off. Pretty cool!

It has been a year now w/o issue so I'm more comfortable.  I figure white to white, black to black ground to ground....

sc.

[ducati]

I had an EE friend do mine, and although he was a whiz at wiring, the hole he accidentally drilled in the side of my house wasn't so great    I still need to buy a new piece of siding 

[Daryan]

Has anyone ever used products from equitech???  I heard the son of q will take care of the issues I have with the current conditoner from Wayne at Bolder!

I can get a pretty sweet deal on it new too!

Thanks

[ducati]

No, but I have heard good things.  From what I recall they are pretty much just an isolation transformer in a fancy box--which is not necessarily a bad thing.  Many folks swear by isotrafos.  If you can get a sweet deal go for it--they seem to sell ok on a'gon

There's a Son of Q on there right now for $695/obo.

[Daryan]

I can get a new one slightly cheaper actually.  If anyone else is interested, I can point you in the right (away from me) direction

[ducati]

I'm going to borrow the Shunyata stuff from my dealer soon.  Depending upon how that goes, I might be interested.