Topic: Delay in Matrix Recording?

[NJFunk]

How are you planning on setting the delay time...?

Also - how does the delay work...electronically...?

Is the singal subjected to A/D conversion within the device...?

Is the delayed signal as high a quality as the original...?

Seems like most delay units are made to be used as effects and not time alingment devices...

OK, I just got back from Guitar Center.  Based on your concerns, I went and asked the guy there about these questions and what I wanted to use the unit for.  To answer some of your questions, it does do Analog In > A/D > Effect > D/A > Analog Out.  He didn't think there should be any discernable degradation of the effect signal.  We didn't get into the specifics of how the effect works electronically because there is a more fundamental reason that this WON'T work that I didn't get from reading the specs on line.  The delay effect is NOT a single-tap type delay, but rather an echo/repeat type delay (in other words, the effect not only delays the signal, it then repeats it a couple times).  Needless to say, I didn't get it.

[nic]

Ideally -  you would just use the band/clubs stage snake...there are likely some extra channels...set your stuff up back at the board...get the two channels from the snake - and go!

in that scenario, unless you put mics onstage, you will STILL need a delay unit

[hexyjones]

Ideally -  you would just use the band/clubs stage snake...there are likely some extra channels...set your stuff up back at the board...get the two channels from the snake - and go!

in that scenario, unless you put mics onstage, you will STILL need a delay unit

I thought that the onstage setup was implied. Maybe some dont know what a "snake" is...

The Snake is large box with XLR inputs that is located on the stage...all the mics used to mic the band are plugged into the snake...

The cable from the snake is very long...and goes back to wherever the soundboard is. Set your recorder up at the board.

At the end of the snake are any number of XLR males...(depending on how many channels the board has)

In most cases - there are say 24 channels - plenty for most acts. So a few channels will be free.

You set your mics up onstage...plug them into the snake...

Now - back at the soundboard(at the other end of the snake) - figure out which two channels you are using, and plug them into your preamp.

Now get the board feed and add that using whatever mixer/pre you happen to use...

ANOTHER APPROACH:

Say you cant really set up near the board -

Well - use the snake in reverse - send the board singal back through snake to the stage (ask the mix person if the have an extra monitor send)

Set up mics onstage - but under this scenario they go right into your preamp - then get the board mix from the snake and matrix away...

Variations on above -

1. -  send whole board mix back through snake...you get the house mix

2. - ask about the extra monitor send - then have the soundguy add only the stuff you want in that send(instead of the whole mix) - for instance - most onstage recordings just need a little clarity added to vocals - so just have soundman add the vocals in your send...

[nic]

ANOTHER APPROACH:

Say you cant really set up near the board -

Well - use the snake in reverse - send the board singal back through snake to the stage (ask the mix person if the have an extra monitor send)

Set up mics onstage - but under this scenario they go right into your preamp - then get the board mix from the snake and matrix away...

Variations on above -

1. -  send whole board mix back through snake...you get the house mix

2. - ask about the extra monitor send - then have the soundguy add only the stuff you want in that send(instead of the whole mix) - for instance - most onstage recordings just need a little clarity added to vocals - so just have soundman add the vocals in your send...

this scenario STILL requires delay

[mmmatt]

ANOTHER APPROACH:

Say you cant really set up near the board -

Well - use the snake in reverse - send the board singal back through snake to the stage (ask the mix person if the have an extra monitor send)

Set up mics onstage - but under this scenario they go right into your preamp - then get the board mix from the snake and matrix away...

Variations on above -

1. -  send whole board mix back through snake...you get the house mix

2. - ask about the extra monitor send - then have the soundguy add only the stuff you want in that send(instead of the whole mix) - for instance - most onstage recordings just need a little clarity added to vocals - so just have soundman add the vocals in your send...

this scenario STILL requires delay

Define need luvean...   You do not NEED a delay if you are close enough.  NOBODY will hear a 10ms delay in a live recording (~10' from the PA) and most wouldn't hear 25ms.  The sound of the room itself will mask a modest delay completely.  If you favor one source or the other you can easily stretch this out to 30' (~30ms delay) with no problems.  I've done this myself without any abnormalities.  My example I posted above was 45', and I was able to overcome the need for delay.  What do you mean by NEED delay?

Matt

[hexyjones]

ANOTHER APPROACH:

Say you cant really set up near the board -

Well - use the snake in reverse - send the board singal back through snake to the stage (ask the mix person if the have an extra monitor send)

Set up mics onstage - but under this scenario they go right into your preamp - then get the board mix from the snake and matrix away...

Variations on above -

1. -  send whole board mix back through snake...you get the house mix

2. - ask about the extra monitor send - then have the soundguy add only the stuff you want in that send(instead of the whole mix) - for instance - most onstage recordings just need a little clarity added to vocals - so just have soundman add the vocals in your send...

this scenario STILL requires delay

Huh? Why?

[nic]

true, under 20ms is relatively unnoticeable.
over 20ms and I would definitely reccomend a delay.
personally, I like the effect of the signals being about 5-10ms apart...gives it a nice fat/warm punch.
25-30ms+ and you've set yourself for the echo/slapback effect.

why would you need delay when sending the board signal back over the snake to the stage?
think about this for a second. wires/cabling have impedance.
under normal circumstances, the stage equipments signal is being sent via snake to the foh position. the signal is not traveling at speed-of-light due to the impedance of the cabling.
if you're sending the signal back down the snake to the stage, you are increasing the impedance against the original signal. with mics setup onstage, there will be a time difference between the signal coming back down the snake compared to the signal captured by your mics. granted, the impedance of the cabling/snake isnt as large as the perceived time delay of the sound coming from the speaker stacks, but it is there.

if this is for a tiny room where the foh position is @25' from the stage and your onstage mics have +15' of cabling then you probably wont notice any effect. (this assumes the snake doesnt have alot of slack coiled/hidden somewhere). increase the size of the room and the cable impedance/perceived time delay increases.

[hexyjones]

true, under 20ms is relatively unnoticeable.
over 20ms and I would definitely reccomend a delay.
personally, I like the effect of the signals being about 5-10ms apart...gives it a nice fat/warm punch.
25-30ms+ and you've set yourself for the echo/slapback effect.

why would you need delay when sending the board signal back over the snake to the stage?
think about this for a second. wires/cabling have impedance.
under normal circumstances, the stage equipments signal is being sent via snake to the foh position. the signal is not traveling at speed-of-light due to the impedance of the cabling.
if you're sending the signal back down the snake to the stage, you are increasing the impedance against the original signal. with mics setup onstage, there will be a time difference between the signal coming back down the snake compared to the signal captured by your mics. granted, the impedance of the cabling/snake isnt as large as the perceived time delay of the sound coming from the speaker stacks, but it is there.

if this is for a tiny room where the foh position is @25' from the stage and your onstage mics have +15' of cabling then you probably wont notice any effect. (this assumes the snake doesnt have alot of slack coiled/hidden somewhere). increase the size of the room and the cable impedance/perceived time delay increases.

Oh please - It might be there in theory - but you surely dont need a DELAY to compensate...You have heard of monitors right? - The monitor feed is often sent back over the snake as well...seems to work fine for all involved! The musicians are using the monitors as key part the performance! They are listening to the monitors as they perform...right...? Their musicans are onstage, the mics are onstage, the monitors are on stage! So really - this technique might actually decrease the delay!

[nic]

true, under 20ms is relatively unnoticeable.
over 20ms and I would definitely reccomend a delay.
personally, I like the effect of the signals being about 5-10ms apart...gives it a nice fat/warm punch.
25-30ms+ and you've set yourself for the echo/slapback effect.

why would you need delay when sending the board signal back over the snake to the stage?
think about this for a second. wires/cabling have impedance.
under normal circumstances, the stage equipments signal is being sent via snake to the foh position. the signal is not traveling at speed-of-light due to the impedance of the cabling.
if you're sending the signal back down the snake to the stage, you are increasing the impedance against the original signal. with mics setup onstage, there will be a time difference between the signal coming back down the snake compared to the signal captured by your mics. granted, the impedance of the cabling/snake isnt as large as the perceived time delay of the sound coming from the speaker stacks, but it is there.

if this is for a tiny room where the foh position is @25' from the stage and your onstage mics have +15' of cabling then you probably wont notice any effect. (this assumes the snake doesnt have alot of slack coiled/hidden somewhere). increase the size of the room and the cable impedance/perceived time delay increases.

Oh please - It might be there in theory - but you surely dont need a DELAY to compensate...You have heard of monitors right? - The monitor feed is often sent back the snake as well...seems to work fine for all involved! The musicians are using the monitors as key part the performance! They are listening to the monitors as they perform...right...? Their musicans are onstage, the mics are onstage, the monitors are on stage! So really - this technique might actually decrease the delay!

only the tiniest of clubs have the monitor mix at foh.
just going by personal experience. every time we've send a sbd signal back down the snake to the stage we had to add delay in post/mixdown, even in venues where the stage-to-foh distance was only about 40'

[hexyjones]

only the tiniest of clubs have the monitor mix at foh.
just going by personal experience. every time we've send a sbd signal back down the snake to the stage we had to add delay in post/mixdown, even in venues where the stage-to-foh distance was only about 40'

Well - I only tape in the tiny-est of clubs - a lot of bands I record are still toting 2-way systems with very basic mixes...I can only think of one club in my region that mixes monitors from sidestage...(Chameleon)

That's one of the reasons I tape the college bands and local/regional acts...just so I can have the kind of access to set up all this shit - which would be a lot harder at big venues...just trying to have fun...

But yeah - not terribly practical at the Electric Factory...

[mmmatt]

true, under 20ms is relatively unnoticeable.
over 20ms and I would definitely reccomend a delay.
personally, I like the effect of the signals being about 5-10ms apart...gives it a nice fat/warm punch.
25-30ms+ and you've set yourself for the echo/slapback effect.

why would you need delay when sending the board signal back over the snake to the stage?
think about this for a second. wires/cabling have impedance.
under normal circumstances, the stage equipments signal is being sent via snake to the foh position. the signal is not traveling at speed-of-light due to the impedance of the cabling.
if you're sending the signal back down the snake to the stage, you are increasing the impedance against the original signal. with mics setup onstage, there will be a time difference between the signal coming back down the snake compared to the signal captured by your mics. granted, the impedance of the cabling/snake isnt as large as the perceived time delay of the sound coming from the speaker stacks, but it is there.

if this is for a tiny room where the foh position is @25' from the stage and your onstage mics have +15' of cabling then you probably wont notice any effect. (this assumes the snake doesnt have alot of slack coiled/hidden somewhere). increase the size of the room and the cable impedance/perceived time delay increases.

I think esotaria is getting the best of you here!  I don't know the statistics, but wouldn't that only be a fraction of a ms?  Some clubs amplify from the stage you know... large powered monitors are becoming more common, and some just place the amps on stage while running the console from the venue floor.  I'm not doubting your statement about delay through the cords is relative, but making considerations for it, seem to me, as being over the line.  Besides, regardless of where the amps are, doesn't the PA suffer the same delay form the FOH signal?  However the signal is getting to the stacks, it still has to get there from the console.

Matt

[Kwonfidelity]

Not to beat a dead horse, but I've never understood why someone would want to mix on-stage mics with the sbd?

Technically, an onstage mic "is" the soundboard.  Look at the guitar amp, the drums, the bass amp, etc.   Mics!

If you're "in" so well with these small clubs, here's a better approach. 

1. Leave your snake(patchbay) and delay at home!
2. Make friends with the sound engineer, which sounds like you already have.
3. Brag, brag, brag about the killer mics you want to set up on stage.
4. Convince him to use those as overhead inputs from stage and use them for the house mix.
5. If he does or doesn't, just get him to  pick up the inputs into the board and then send you the sbd/your mics mix to a sub/buss directly to you.

"Brilliant!"

[SuperDave]

true, under 20ms is relatively unnoticeable.
over 20ms and I would definitely reccomend a delay.
personally, I like the effect of the signals being about 5-10ms apart...gives it a nice fat/warm punch.
25-30ms+ and you've set yourself for the echo/slapback effect.

why would you need delay when sending the board signal back over the snake to the stage?
think about this for a second. wires/cabling have impedance.
under normal circumstances, the stage equipments signal is being sent via snake to the foh position. the signal is not traveling at speed-of-light due to the impedance of the cabling.
if you're sending the signal back down the snake to the stage, you are increasing the impedance against the original signal. with mics setup onstage, there will be a time difference between the signal coming back down the snake compared to the signal captured by your mics. granted, the impedance of the cabling/snake isnt as large as the perceived time delay of the sound coming from the speaker stacks, but it is there.

if this is for a tiny room where the foh position is @25' from the stage and your onstage mics have +15' of cabling then you probably wont notice any effect. (this assumes the snake doesnt have alot of slack coiled/hidden somewhere). increase the size of the room and the cable impedance/perceived time delay increases.

Oh please - It might be there in theory - but you surely dont need a DELAY to compensate...You have heard of monitors right? - The monitor feed is often sent back the snake as well...seems to work fine for all involved! The musicians are using the monitors as key part the performance! They are listening to the monitors as they perform...right...? Their musicans are onstage, the mics are onstage, the monitors are on stage! So really - this technique might actually decrease the delay!

only the tiniest of clubs have the monitor mix at foh.
just going by personal experience. every time we've send a sbd signal back down the snake to the stage we had to add delay in post/mixdown, even in venues where the stage-to-foh distance was only about 40'

Speaking from my own experience of mixing FOH and Monitors at various venues(this includes some big outdoor festies), the monitor rig is set up on the side stage more for the convenience of communication to the band onstage rather than the delay problem.  While the monitor rig may be only 20 feet from the front of the stage, the signal still has to be split and run through an abnormally long snake that usually has a lot of it(100 feet or so, sometimes more) coiled up by the monitor board.  So it's still running down a long length cable.  I can't say that I've ever noticed the delay that we're refering too.

Just my 2 cents.    

[nic]

true, under 20ms is relatively unnoticeable.
over 20ms and I would definitely reccomend a delay.
personally, I like the effect of the signals being about 5-10ms apart...gives it a nice fat/warm punch.
25-30ms+ and you've set yourself for the echo/slapback effect.

why would you need delay when sending the board signal back over the snake to the stage?
think about this for a second. wires/cabling have impedance.
under normal circumstances, the stage equipments signal is being sent via snake to the foh position. the signal is not traveling at speed-of-light due to the impedance of the cabling.
if you're sending the signal back down the snake to the stage, you are increasing the impedance against the original signal. with mics setup onstage, there will be a time difference between the signal coming back down the snake compared to the signal captured by your mics. granted, the impedance of the cabling/snake isnt as large as the perceived time delay of the sound coming from the speaker stacks, but it is there.

if this is for a tiny room where the foh position is @25' from the stage and your onstage mics have +15' of cabling then you probably wont notice any effect. (this assumes the snake doesnt have alot of slack coiled/hidden somewhere). increase the size of the room and the cable impedance/perceived time delay increases.

Oh please - It might be there in theory - but you surely dont need a DELAY to compensate...You have heard of monitors right? - The monitor feed is often sent back the snake as well...seems to work fine for all involved! The musicians are using the monitors as key part the performance! They are listening to the monitors as they perform...right...? Their musicans are onstage, the mics are onstage, the monitors are on stage! So really - this technique might actually decrease the delay!

only the tiniest of clubs have the monitor mix at foh.
just going by personal experience. every time we've send a sbd signal back down the snake to the stage we had to add delay in post/mixdown, even in venues where the stage-to-foh distance was only about 40'

Speaking from my own experience of mixing FOH and Monitors at various venues(this includes some big outdoor festies), the monitor rig is set up on the side stage more for the convenience of communication to the band onstage rather than the delay problem.  While the monitor rig may be only 20 feet from the front of the stage, the signal still has to be split and run through an abnormally long snake that usually has a lot of it(100 feet or so, sometimes more) coiled up by the monitor board.  So it's still running down a long length cable.  I can't say that I've ever noticed the delay that we're refering too.

Just my 2 cents.   

true, but in that scenario, you aren't comparing 2 different input sources simultaneously.
not trying to be sarcastic, but when soundchecking/performing on stage, do you think you could really notice a 20-30millisecond delay?

we only noticed it when mixing down in post...

[dklein]

only the tiniest of clubs have the monitor mix at foh.
just going by personal experience. every time we've send a sbd signal back down the snake to the stage we had to add delay in post/mixdown, even in venues where the stage-to-foh distance was only about 40'

If I'm reading this right you are suggesting that the onstage mics are receiving the signal earlier than the board>snake?  That would be a real mystery, given that the onstage mics only get sound after it's travelled at least as much cable distance just to come out of the p.a.

If there's some discrepancy, it might be in the other direction - board snake gets there first because some post-board processing equipment is delaying the signal to the p.a.  
e.g. the p.a. speakers sit 6 ft in front of the band.  In order to synch the direct sound with the p.a. sound, the p.a. is delayed by 6 ms so the direct sound can travel (catch up to the p.a.) and hit the listeners ears at the same time.