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Author Topic: A little armchair mic choice/placement quarterbacking  (Read 3394 times)

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Offline Steve J

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A little armchair mic choice/placement quarterbacking
« on: April 05, 2005, 03:50:23 PM »
Just looking for some input/ideas on a show I recorded a couple weeks ago. Los Lobos did an 'acoustic' show at the Symphony Center in Chicago, which is a nice sounding venue but with some complex acoustics to record. The recording did not come out quite as I'd hoped; so I was looking for some input should I come across a similar situation down the road.

Here's a pic of the stage:



For those not familiar with the venue, it is what you would expect of a concert hall, designed for full-on acoustic productions of symphony, classical recitals, opera, etc. For the LL show, all the tiering that normally seats the third & fourth rows of the orchestra was retracted; and the rear sectors of the stage were all covered in black cloth, with audience seated behind (as in the picture). As you can tell, the stage is all wood; and the seating area has four levels (mezzanine, boxes, lower tier, upper tier).

The band's instruments were run through DI's into the PA; but there were two small amps (Fender Deluxe Reverb's) for some bajo & tres parts. Conrad alternated between a guitarron through DI and Gibson bass through a small amp. Also there was a drum kit that also included bongos, congas, a cajon and a set of timbales. The drum kit and the amps were all placed behind lexan baffles and mic'd. The PA was suspended left & right in a three-panel configuration, splaying progressively upwards following the tiers. The soundboard was located in the center box of the box tier.

I ran KM140's (ortf)>MME>DA-P1, with the mics clamped in front of the soundboard (about 85' direct line from the center of the stage setup), raised to about head height equal to a person sitting in the adjacent boxes. There wasn't much of a soundcheck; so I didn't get a chance to get a feel for any adjustments to be made. Still, sitting in the box next to the mics, the sound I was hearing was very full; and I was excited to hear the results.

When I listened back to the tape, the instruments that went DI came out nicely; but the instruments fed through amps, though having sounded great during the performance, were kind of distant in the recording. Vocals were also down a bit; and the drums/percussion...they were real "interesting." Soft passages were OK; but as the drums were played harder, I started picking up (on the recording anyway) a slap off the back wall which seemed to mud out the drums.

So, all this to ask: what could I have done to improve results? Would it have been better to run omn'si from that location, to better pick up some of the ambient reflections of the room? There was nowhere else that I would have been allowed to set up openly; and I don't know how soon I'll be in a similar place to 'experiment.' Of course, I should have had some clue as to what was facing me, as the venue itself had a dozen mics suspended over the stage pointed in every direction. I remember thinking it'd be fun to have had all those sources to play with.

One other thing. After listening to the recording, I once again realized what an amazing thing the human auditory system is, because what I captured and what I heard sitting right next to the mics was so dramatically different.
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Offline Brian

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Re: A little armchair mic choice/placement quarterbacking
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2005, 04:10:26 PM »
ortf too wide from 85 feet back ???

you were too far back, IMO, thus the weird levels at different passages from different instruments

Offline Brian

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Re: A little armchair mic choice/placement quarterbacking
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2005, 04:28:01 PM »
wouldn't that back wall drum slap-back be much more attenuated at 90º or even 70º? Not to mention also putting the quiter instruments much more on-axis to the caps.

ahhhhh,  definitely true with the cardioids. i wasn't thinking about the slap-back.  and at that far back you really can't be expecting too much of a stereo spread unless the PA was hung very wide.  maybe should have ran XY?

but if he was closer, he wouldn't have had that problem ;)

Offline Steve J

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Re: A little armchair mic choice/placement quarterbacking
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2005, 04:29:51 PM »
Yeah...I sort of thought so at the time; but I had a couple things going against me there. First, having to keep a low profile so as not to disturb the patrons around me...and only having the standard Neumann STH-100 set, giving me either ORTF or XY as an option. Also, no other place to set the mics. I could have gone a bit higher or a bit lower; but I was stuck as to where the mics were going to be mounted. And I thought I might get away with ORTF in that the PA, being suspend from the ceiling, was actually closer to the SBD than the SBD to the front of the stage...hence why the DI'd instruments seem to have come out pretty punchy and the amplified instruments did not.

Thanks, guys...




Edit: grammar
« Last Edit: April 05, 2005, 04:33:51 PM by mannysbones »
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Offline Brian

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Re: A little armchair mic choice/placement quarterbacking
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2005, 05:13:48 PM »
how many "feet" back from the performers would you say?

Offline Brian

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Re: A little armchair mic choice/placement quarterbacking
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2005, 07:38:59 PM »
that's impressive. i'd like to hear it if at all possible.  i'm guessing the acoustics of the room may have helped expand the image of the musicians maybe?

Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: A little armchair mic choice/placement quarterbacking
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2005, 08:18:27 PM »
only having the standard Neumann STH-100 set, giving me either ORTF or XY as an option

FWIW, you can use the STH-100 set to run DIN.  Certainly 90º, though the spacing might be off just a smidge.  Check the Archive for a post on how to do so.
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Re: A little armchair mic choice/placement quarterbacking
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2005, 08:34:52 PM »
I really have to agree that moke's setup  (17cm 90º) would work quite well. I have fooled around with a zillion different spacings and angles and have found that this config  gives me a very stable setero image, up close and far away. The results are consistently quite good, indoors and out, so I seem to use it most of the time these days. ;D
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Re: A little armchair mic choice/placement quarterbacking
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2005, 08:39:43 PM »
I really have to agree that moke's setup (17cm 90º) would work quite well. I have fooled around with a zillion different spacings and angles and have found that this config gives me a very stable setero image, up close and far away. The results are consistently quite good, indoors and out, so I seem to use it most of the time these days. ;D

same here, except i use pretty much 90* w/ diff spacing, nice, tight spacing
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Offline Steve J

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Re: A little armchair mic choice/placement quarterbacking
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2005, 12:13:33 AM »
only having the standard Neumann STH-100 set, giving me either ORTF or XY as an option

FWIW, you can use the STH-100 set to run DIN. Certainly 90º, though the spacing might be off just a smidge. Check the Archive for a post on how to do so.

Man, I wish some one would invent an automated angel/devil to remind me of these things. It'd be helpful to get me to look at the alternatives onsite rather than staying 'inside the box' (no pun intended). I have done that very thing (messing around with the XY bars to get a DIN config) before at another venue...in Chicago no less!
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