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Author Topic: Edirol R-09 - what is the real unity gain setting?  (Read 19818 times)

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Offline vanark

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Re: Edirol R-09 - what is the real unity gain setting?
« Reply #30 on: October 02, 2007, 01:38:04 PM »
Yikes!  Next thing we know they'll be sending a link to this thread. 

How about they just go ask an engineer?  It is a pretty reasonable question and deserves more than "speculation".

But isn't it really about what sounds best - with your gear, not mine..  And not what someone (who doesn't even record!) tells you?


Sort of, but if technically your external preamp is less noisy than the internal preamp, I'd prefer to use the external preamp for amplification rather than rely on my ears to tell me which sounds "better".

But, you are right - if you are happy with the settings you use, go for it.  That is what matters.
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Offline lbgspam

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Re: Edirol R-09 - what is the real unity gain setting?
« Reply #31 on: October 03, 2007, 06:31:41 AM »
I think we need to ask GuySonic if he can do the testing on the unit... I pmed him to check this thread.

Offline tms

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Re: Edirol R-09 - what is the real unity gain setting?
« Reply #32 on: October 12, 2007, 10:06:06 AM »
There's definitely more high tech ways to look at this but a while back I was trying to figure out on a minidisc player, what is zero gain setting on a scale of 0-30.  So I found a 0dB white noise sample on the internet, burned it to a cd and fed it line out from the cd player to the md.  Turned out 15 didn't light up the peak meter but 16 did so I figured 15 was the setting for unity gain.  Kinda low tech but anyone can do it.



I think we need to ask GuySonic if he can do the testing on the unit... I pmed him to check this thread.
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SP-CMC-4 (AT853) > SP battery box > Edirol R-09

Offline Eigenklang

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Re: Edirol R-09 - what is the real unity gain setting?
« Reply #33 on: October 16, 2007, 03:06:17 PM »
Hi there!

Did I understand that right, you want to find out which preamp-setting on the R-09 is required to obtain 0dBu on the recording when adding 0dBu (= 775 mV) to the line-in?

I measured that by using my sine generator and audio-millivoltmeter. I bought my R-09 about two weeks ago; it was delivered with firmware V 1.20 and upgraded to V1.30.

--------

Settings:
-Sine generator: 1 kHz sine wave, Outputlevel 0 dBu / 775 mV

-Millivoltmeter: Scale set to 0dBu @ 775 mV

-R-09: ADC set to 24 Bit / 48 kHz   |   Rec Monitor Sw [on]

--------

Setup:
Sine generator > R-09 [LINE IN]
&
R-09 [PHONES] > millivoltmeter

--------

Procedure:
The sine generator was plugged to the [LINE IN] jack of the R-09. Unit was switched to [REC PAUSE]; input level was increased from [ 0 ] until the level indicators on the R-09 reached 0 dB which was at [18]. The Scale here is 1 dB / step.

Then the millivoltmeter was plugged to the [PHONES] jack and the output volume of the R-09 was increased from [ 0 ] until the millivoltmeter showed 0 dBu / 775 mV. That was at [98] ; the scale is 0,5 dB / step. (Just in case someone wants to use that jack as a line-level output).

--------

So, in my opinion the "unity gain" setting is [18]...
« Last Edit: October 16, 2007, 03:09:06 PM by Eigenklang »

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Re: Edirol R-09 - what is the real unity gain setting?
« Reply #34 on: October 16, 2007, 03:25:36 PM »
18! - a new contender...interesting.

With such disparity between the various opinions as to the unity gain setting...shouldn't it be somewhat obvious to the ear? If your adding gain...it will be louder?

If you feed an R9 an line level wav file shouldn't the files be identical gain wise when viewed in an editor...?

Offline Eigenklang

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Re: Edirol R-09 - what is the real unity gain setting?
« Reply #35 on: October 16, 2007, 04:49:49 PM »
If you feed an R9 an line level wav file shouldn't the files be identical gain wise when viewed in an editor...?

Okay, lets try it:
I created following files using Audacity [File format 24 Bit / 48 kHz WAV]:

A) 1 kHz Sine, volume setting 1 (highest possible Volume in Audacity)
B) 1 kHz Sine as A, then decreased by adding amplification of -3 dB
C) 1 kHz Sine as A, then decreased by adding amplification of -6 dB
D) 1 kHz Sine as A, then decreased by adding amplification of -12 dB

Then I transferred these files to my R-09. All settings on the R-09 and test equipment were exactly the same as in my first post.

First step after that was controlling the level meter on the R-09's display by playing back the files:
A) showed a clipped signal
B) showed -3 dB
C) showed -6 dB
D) showed -12 dB

After that The output level on the "calibrated" [98] PHONES output was measured in dB:

A) +0,5 dBu
B) -2,4 dBu
C) -5,4 dBu
D) -11,4 dBu


---> with input Level [18] using LINE IN jack we are as close as possible to the one and only existing "unity gain" setting, because by recording  1 kHz / 775 mV at [18] and playing back with [98] we get nearly the same level on all equipment (R-09 meters, millivoltmeter and audio software) as we get it with created files (within 0,6 dB... at least!).

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Re: Edirol R-09 - what is the real unity gain setting?
« Reply #36 on: October 16, 2007, 05:06:16 PM »

---> with input Level [18] using LINE IN jack we are as close as possible to the one and only existing "unity gain" setting, because by recording  1 kHz / 775 mV at [18] and playing back with [98] we get nearly the same level on all equipment (R-09 meters, millivoltmeter and audio software) as we get it with created files (within 0,6 dB... at least!).

That seems to get to the heart of the matter.

Is it possible this setting might be varying from one firmware revision to another? Perhaps everybody is right!

Offline Eigenklang

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Re: Edirol R-09 - what is the real unity gain setting?
« Reply #37 on: October 16, 2007, 05:30:21 PM »
Yes, that might be possible, because the level controls are programmable. Is there a way to downgrade from V1.30 to an earlier version?

Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: Edirol R-09 - what is the real unity gain setting?
« Reply #38 on: October 16, 2007, 05:32:01 PM »
Which setting sounds best?

Offline digifish_music

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Re: Edirol R-09 - what is the real unity gain setting?
« Reply #39 on: October 17, 2007, 09:11:19 AM »
Which setting sounds best?


When it is connected to a Sound Devices MixPre :)

digifish
- What's this knob do?

Offline edtyre

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Re: Edirol R-09 - what is the real unity gain setting?
« Reply #40 on: October 17, 2007, 09:45:27 AM »
Just ran my R-09 with my NBOX+ (20 db fixed gain) for
Phil & Friends from the 5th row on #1 (of 30) and the recording
sounds fine.
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Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: Edirol R-09 - what is the real unity gain setting?
« Reply #41 on: October 17, 2007, 10:10:32 AM »
Running at trim 1 does have the risk of being one click away from mute... but the much bigger concern is the potential distortion on heavy bass. Just play back a bass-heavy show directly into the r09 at trim 1 and you will  hear it distort before clipping (at least mine does). It only takes a minute to plug the r09 into a stereo and try it. I've experienced it in the field running mk21 > v3 > r09 and mk21 > rmod > r09.  It doesn't take crazy heavy bass either.

I'd guess the attenuation on the r09 is digital and it mangles some low freq waveforms.  With a fixed 20dB pre, I'd suggest an attenuator so you can run at trim 8 or above.

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Re: Edirol R-09 - what is the real unity gain setting?
« Reply #42 on: October 17, 2007, 11:16:47 AM »
Running at trim 1 does have the risk of being one click away from mute... but the much bigger concern is the potential distortion on heavy bass. Just play back a bass-heavy show directly into the r09 at trim 1 and you will  hear it distort before clipping (at least mine does). It only takes a minute to plug the r09 into a stereo and try it. I've experienced it in the field running mk21 > v3 > r09 and mk21 > rmod > r09.  It doesn't take crazy heavy bass either.

I'd guess the attenuation on the r09 is digital and it mangles some low freq waveforms.  With a fixed 20dB pre, I'd suggest an attenuator so you can run at trim 8 or above.


You are exactly right about the bass distortion at lower settings on the R-09. My post above was
really to state that a good recording can be made at lower levels (if you HAVE to) in my case
i forgot my cable to my MR-1 and was lucky to have my R-09 as a back-up.

Adding some attenuators to my bag is a pretty good idea. A few months ago at a ZZ Top
gen adm concert i had to keep taking steps backwards to finally get my levels right on the R-09
at trim 1 and i did get that bass distortion you mentioned.
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Offline echo1434

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Re: Edirol R-09 - what is the real unity gain setting?
« Reply #43 on: November 20, 2007, 11:18:06 AM »
yes, "13" is default setting after powering on the device for the very 1st time.

Yes, that's true. Also, "13" provides a line-in level that is similar to most high-end sound cards at their default settings, give or take a couple decibels.

Don't know if that helps provide any clues...
« Last Edit: November 20, 2007, 11:20:44 AM by echo1434 »

Offline dmonkey

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Re: Edirol R-09 - what is the real unity gain setting?
« Reply #44 on: November 20, 2007, 11:26:33 PM »
yes, "13" is default setting after powering on the device for the very 1st time.

Yes, that's true. Also, "13" provides a line-in level that is similar to most high-end sound cards at their default settings, give or take a couple decibels.

Don't know if that helps provide any clues...


But...but...but... 13's an unlucky number. I wouldn't possibly be comfortable taping at 13.
MK4's, KM140's or MC930's >  Tinybox or Aerco MP-2 > R-09, M-10, R-44 (Oade CM) or MixPre-6

 

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