Taperssection.com
Gear / Technical Help => Photo / Video Recording => Topic started by: kidrocklive on August 23, 2006, 09:02:41 AM
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I'm looking to openly film shows and don't really know much about cams so I thought i'd get some sugguestions as to what's a good brand/model for my price range. Also i'm assuming a cam that has an external mic is prefered? I may at some point try stealthing with video but that's a long ways off I think. Let me know what you all think. Thanks.
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I'm guessing that your budget is in american dollars so I can't be sure on the pricing but if the Sony harddrive camera falls into your budget or just out of it i recomend it. The picture is fantastic and since it is a harddrive based camera the transfer is really fast, unlike capturing from the tape witch is in real time.
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I'm guessing that your budget is in american dollars so I can't be sure on the pricing but if the Sony harddrive camera falls into your budget or just out of it i recomend it. The picture is fantastic and since it is a harddrive based camera the transfer is really fast, unlike capturing from the tape witch is in real time.
BUT ~ they record in mpeg2. So if you plan on doing something like a 2-cam mix, forget it.
These types of cameras are good for certain situations, but like most things, it all depends on what you are planning on using it for.
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I'm guessing that your budget is in american dollars so I can't be sure on the pricing but if the Sony harddrive camera falls into your budget or just out of it i recomend it. The picture is fantastic and since it is a harddrive based camera the transfer is really fast, unlike capturing from the tape witch is in real time.
BUT ~ they record in mpeg2. So if you plan on doing something like a 2-cam mix, forget it.
These types of cameras are good for certain situations, but like most things, it all depends on what you are planning on using it for.
from sugguestions I got from another board I think i'm gonna go with the pc1000
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I'm guessing that your budget is in american dollars so I can't be sure on the pricing but if the Sony harddrive camera falls into your budget or just out of it i recomend it. The picture is fantastic and since it is a harddrive based camera the transfer is really fast, unlike capturing from the tape witch is in real time.
BUT ~ they record in mpeg2. So if you plan on doing something like a 2-cam mix, forget it.
These types of cameras are good for certain situations, but like most things, it all depends on what you are planning on using it for.
I've just did a couple 6 (yes 6) cam shows, one of the camera's is this modle, and it looks fantastic, don't pay attention to the last comment.
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I'm guessing that your budget is in american dollars so I can't be sure on the pricing but if the Sony harddrive camera falls into your budget or just out of it i recomend it. The picture is fantastic and since it is a harddrive based camera the transfer is really fast, unlike capturing from the tape witch is in real time.
BUT ~ they record in mpeg2. So if you plan on doing something like a 2-cam mix, forget it.
These types of cameras are good for certain situations, but like most things, it all depends on what you are planning on using it for.
I've just did a couple 6 (yes 6) cam shows, one of the camera's is this modle, and it looks fantastic, don't pay attention to the last comment.
It just depends on the quality you're looking for because the fact remains that his comment is pretty accurate, and considering we're all tapers here, I'm betting you can relate with this analogy: recording with a Hard Disk or DVD-based videocam and then editing the footage and rendering out a new copy is basically equivalent to recording in MP3, then editing the source, and re-encoding out second-gen MP3 (yuk!). It's lossy being re-endcoded back to lossy, which means a generation removed of quality. Period, there is no disputing this. It may "still look great," but the bottom line is that it won't look as good as it would have if you had recorded to MiniDV first. Anyway, I'm not saying there isn't a place for DVD and HD camcorders, but as someone who knows quite a bit about video, you couldn't pay me to go with anything less than MiniDV -- from there it'd have to be DVCAM, BetaSP, HDV, or true HD, otherwise, I'd stick to MiniDV in a sec. And yeah, transfers are real time, but it's actually pretty nice to be able to have a copy of the masters on tape for archiving. You use Hard Disk based, and you've got to make an EXTRA copy of all your raw footage for backups which can be a hassle considering every MiniDV tape is essentially holding 10-13+ gigs of video in it's own right. Just some food for thought...
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I'm guessing that your budget is in american dollars so I can't be sure on the pricing but if the Sony harddrive camera falls into your budget or just out of it i recomend it. The picture is fantastic and since it is a harddrive based camera the transfer is really fast, unlike capturing from the tape witch is in real time.
BUT ~ they record in mpeg2. So if you plan on doing something like a 2-cam mix, forget it.
These types of cameras are good for certain situations, but like most things, it all depends on what you are planning on using it for.
I've just did a couple 6 (yes 6) cam shows, one of the camera's is this modle, and it looks fantastic, don't pay attention to the last comment.
How did you mix the mpeg2 footage in with the footage of the other five cams? Let me guess... you did an analog (real time) capture from the cam's HD to your harddrive?
As I said, they are good for certain situations (i.e., single cam shot). But once you start including them in a multi-cam production, you either do an analog capture (and lose quality), or try to edit the mpeg2 video in a smart editor like Womble - which is a major pain in the ass and very difficult to keep in synch.
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Last time I edited video on Prempere Pro 1.5, which was admittedly a while ago, it seemed to handle editing MPEG-2 video on the Timeline well. Suprisingly well, I thought.
Nevertheless, IMO, the MPEG-2 cameras are really made to cater to "family video taping" where you just want it on a disc that you can pop into a DVD player A.S.A.P. to show grandmother and grandfather.
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I'm guessing that your budget is in american dollars so I can't be sure on the pricing but if the Sony harddrive camera falls into your budget or just out of it i recomend it. The picture is fantastic and since it is a harddrive based camera the transfer is really fast, unlike capturing from the tape witch is in real time.
BUT ~ they record in mpeg2. So if you plan on doing something like a 2-cam mix, forget it.
These types of cameras are good for certain situations, but like most things, it all depends on what you are planning on using it for.
I've just did a couple 6 (yes 6) cam shows, one of the camera's is this modle, and it looks fantastic, don't pay attention to the last comment.
How did you mix the mpeg2 footage in with the footage of the other five cams? Let me guess... you did an analog (real time) capture from the cam's HD to your harddrive?
To be honest I'm not sure how it was edited. One of the other filmers is doing the editing. All I know is that he is the one with the harddrive Cam. He uses a Mac to edit and has the latest version of Final Cut Pro. Too my knowledge he just transfered via USB but I could be wrong. I'll ask him though and get back to you.
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There are plenty of NLEs that can edit MPEG2 footage with DV or other footage just like there are plenty of sound editors like SoundForge, Audacity, etc. that can edit MP3s along with WAVs, but the fact remains that you are capturing in a lossy format, and then re-encoding to a second-gen lossy format, which I just don't understand why you would want to do that if you can easily buy a MiniDV-based camera for the same -- if not lower -- price. I'm not saying the multi-cam guys did anything wrong, I'm just making a point for the original poster who is looking for a cam, that you couldn't pay me to buy a cam that records in a lossy codec when I could get DV for the same price. However, this is just one man's opinion, so of course, take it with a huge grain of salt, but this one aspect of the conversation is basically undeniable. Now, for those die-hards out there, technically speaking, DV is lossy too, but there is no doubt that DV records at a significantly higher bitrates than those MPEG2 and MPEG4 cameras do and then some. And editing in a codec that does inter-frame grouped compression is much more problematic (and slow mind you) than editing using a codec like DV that using only intra-frame compression. One other point that might be interesting to find out is that I wouldn't be surprised one bit if those DVD and Hard-Drive cams record their audio in lossy format too (some sort of MPEG or AAC or AC3 format I bet) rather than true 16/48 PCM which is standard for DV. That is even true for the new HDV cams out there, which a lot of people don't realize -- my cheesy MiniDV-based camcorder records true 16-bit digital audio, but those new Sony HDV cams record in a lossy format.
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What would really be cool is if they came out with a harddrive cam that had the option of recording to the HD in DV. A 100 gig drive could hold over seven hours of video. I'd be first in line to buy one providing the other specs for the cam were high quality.
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Now I'm not claiming to know a lot about video taping, I've only just got into this past year, and I didn't realize that the harddrive cams where recording in a lossy format. So I have another question to go along with the dv/harddrive debate. One of the other filmers at the shows I mentioned above (multi cam mixes) uses the previouse Sony High Def dv camera, it's a bigger camera than the current one, not by much though, mainly just the lens is bigger. Anyways, he records to tape and through firewire to a harddrive at the same time. This way if his tape is bad (which has happened before) or runs out before the song is over He doesn't loose any footage. Is the footage being recorded to the harddrive lossy as well?
As I mentioned, I'm fairly new to video so I'm just trying to figure things out.
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Sony HD = HDV. Search on HDV for a whole lot of info. That's better than MPEG2 for sure, and has a higher resolution too, but has it's own problems, but compared to DV it'll be higher res for sure, although those cams require more light (they're at least one or two stops slower) which is bad for tapers. However, the AUDIO on that thing is inferrior to 16-bit on a DV cam if you can believe that. A lot of people don't know that...
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Sony HD = HDV. Search on HDV for a whole lot of info. That's better than MPEG2 for sure, and has a higher resolution too, but has it's own problems, but compared to DV it'll be higher res for sure, although those cams require more light (they're at least one or two stops slower) which is bad for tapers. However, the AUDIO on that thing is inferrior to 16-bit on a DV cam if you can believe that. A lot of people don't know that...
how do you get that .... my HDV cam does 16bit 48k ??
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Sony HD = HDV. Search on HDV for a whole lot of info. That's better than MPEG2 for sure, and has a higher resolution too, but has it's own problems, but compared to DV it'll be higher res for sure, although those cams require more light (they're at least one or two stops slower) which is bad for tapers. However, the AUDIO on that thing is inferrior to 16-bit on a DV cam if you can believe that. A lot of people don't know that...
how do you get that .... my HDV cam does 16bit 48k ??
Maybe, but I doubt it... Check the specs of your cam... (I'm making a distinction between DV and HDV just to make sure we're talking about the same thing):
http://www.google.com/search?q=hdv+audio+lossy
Also, see my NEXT POST...
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Got this from the specs of your cam:
Audio: DV/DVCAM Rec.: 48kHz/16 bit, 32kHz/12 bit. HDV Rec.: MPEG-1 Audio Layer II
Looks like it's 16-bit when recording in DV, but not when you record in HDV, which is EXACTLY what I expected. But maybe I'm missing something? I'm telling you right now, I'm amazed at the number of people that don't know that, even people that OWN these cams... But feel free to prove me wrong. It wouldn't be the first time. I think I've read that it's 384Kbps or something like that.
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Not arguing for the sake of arguing here, but aren't HDV cameras only recording audio in MPEG-2 (or maybe AC3, i.e. lossy) format? Even though it's 16/48, it's still an MPEG audio source you're left with, correct? It might still sound good, but it is technically lossy if it's MPEG-2 or AC3 audio.
Whereas a DV cam can record in 16/48 LPCM (lossless) format.
And NO, I'm NOT saying any HDV camera is a bad choice or anything of the sort. I've seen some beautiful, beautiful footage shot with HDV cameras. I'm just pointing out technical facts inherent with various camera formats.
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Not arguing for the sake of arguing here, but aren't HDV cameras only recording audio in MPEG-2 (or maybe AC3, i.e. lossy) format? Even though it's 16/48, it's still an MPEG audio source you're left with, correct? It might still sound good, but it is technically lossy if it's MPEG-2 or AC3 audio.
Whereas a DV cam can record in 16/48 LPCM (lossless) format.
And NO, I'm NOT saying any HDV camera is a bad choice or anything of the sort. I've seen some beautiful, beautiful footage shot with HDV cameras. I'm just pointing out technical facts inherent with various camera formats.
Yes. This is what I've been saying all along, I think it's something like 384 Kbps lossy (not 16-bit at all). And I agree, I'm not saying it's a bad choice for anyone, the cam the TSer has above is pretty freakin' sweet for sure, no doubt. I think that its awesome that it does DVCAM too, but yeah, that's "only" standard def -- but it's a damn good standard def, and it handles true 16/48 to boot. My main point has been that considering the lengths people at TS go to for 24/96 sometimes, going lossy is something you want to at least be doing ON PURPOSE. For me personally, I don't think it would even matter really, cause I'd always record the audio to a seperate recorder anyway...
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Somewhat off-subject but still related...
There is a DVD at The Traders Den that was recorded with a DVD-RAM disk cam, and it was recorded with LPCM audio. The audio on it is fantastic.
http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=24456&highlight=bromberg
Angel Band & The David Bromberg Quartet
BMW Motorcycle Owners of America International Rally
Champlain Valley Exposition
Essex Junction, Vermont, USA
July 22, 2006
NTSC DVD w/LPCM Audio