Topic: 24-bit on the JB3

[dano420]

So I just got a JB3 and and decided to open it up and take a look under the hood. I found this IC on board, http://www.semiconductors.philips.com/pip/UDA1380.html which looks like it does the A/D conversion. After reading the datasheet, it DOES support 24-bit! What it does not support is 96khz sample rates but will do 48khz. It also appears that this IC is indeed firmware driven so maybe it can be hacked to do 24-bit unless there's some kind of hardware clock that only allows it to do 16-bit. Any ideas?

Dan

[Diggin]

we did confirm over the weekend at 10klf that it can play back 24/96 files, not sure what it does to them but Swanny was able to play the files I put on there, so maybe there is hope

[dano420]

Yeah, if you look at the datasheet, it'll do 96khz DAC just not 96khz ADC. It seems that a little firmware mod might make this thing do at least 24/48. I did notice that the chip will only do 24-bit on the output and a maximum for 20-bit on the input. The optical-in may only do a maximun of 20-bit if the signal goes through this chip (??). Line-in looks like it would be converted to the full 24-bit. Now all we need is the firmware source.

Dan

[coloartist]

That would be awesome if I could use my jb3 as a backup for my M-audio flashtraker, whenever it comes.

[jeromejello]

jb3 firmware = tapir holy grail

[JackoRoses]

jb3 firmware = tapir holy grail

we just need a music enthusiast computer geek over in norway to reverse engineer it and release a "upgraded version" for tapers..

[dano420]

I did a little searching on the net for any "custom" firmware revisions and haven't found much yet. When I opened up the JB3, I was wishing to find a chip similiar to a cirrus ADC that would take a hardware switch to pop it into 24-bit mode. No such luck here...... Maybe after reading the datasheet 1000 times, there could be a simple solution. We'll see! A simple mod will make the JB3 a VERY cheap 24-bit rock and roll machine!

[SonicSound]

Are we dreaming here 

This would be to good to be true

[Simp-Dawg]

with the heat issues the jb3 experiences, i would probably not want to run it in 24-bit mode, even if it could be done.

[bgalizio]

with the heat issues the jb3 experiences, i would probably not want to run it in 24-bit mode, even if it could be done.

Agree. Plus, so long as the new M-Audio device works well, wouldn't you want a smaller device?

[Simp-Dawg]

yup!  solid state is better anyways.

[Swanny]

It sounds like its working hard just to play back a 24 bit file. I don't think it could keep up to record it.

[Simp-Dawg]

yeah i bet power would be an issue too.

[coloartist]

If it worked as a backup, that would be great, though.

[JackoRoses]

if no one ever tries it, no one will ever know.
ppl record 24 bit to a laptop hard drive which is no more that what the jb3 is.
I would like to see a revised firmware that could open up that possibility.
If it does not ever materialize oh well, solid state is here anyway.

[flipp]

ppl record 24 bit to a laptop hard drive which is no more that what the jb3 is.

While that's true, most laptop hds spin faster tan 4200rpm, which I seem to recall is the speed of the stock drive in a JB3. Replace it with a faster drive and you may have a viable option for 24 bit if the firmware ever becomes available.

[silverbullet]

I'd be worried about the recording time length. Hopefully the JB3 firmware will do auto .wav splits lasting more than 3 hrs. I seem to remember a 3 hr time limit on the current JB3. I'll have to reread the M-Audio Flash but I fear I won't be able to find a flash card that can handle a 24/96. 3 hour, uncut show. $$$ All in due time.

[John Kelly]

While that's true, most laptop hds spin faster tan 4200rpm,

Not true.  For power, heat, and cost reasons, almost all laptops use a 4200rpm drive unless special ordered.

[flipp]

While that's true, most laptop hds spin faster tan 4200rpm,

Not true.  For power, heat, and cost reasons, almost all laptops use a 4200rpm drive unless special ordered.

Guess I should thank the IT and purchasing departments at work since all three laptops I've had have had 5400 rpm Fujitsu drives. I figured that was pretty much standard. Didn't know I had it so good.

[dano420]

I use the PDA setup right now to record 24/48 onto the 5gb PC Card. The drive only spins at 3990 rpm and it writes the 24/48 data perfectly at real-time creation. There shouldn't be any issues at all doing 24/48 to the drive that's in the JB3. Now 24/96 would be an issue. And yes, the microtrack would be the perfect device but there's a limitation on the media size and cost. At $150 for the JB3 to do 24/48 with 20gb of space, it would be a dream! As for power and heat, it may produce a wee bit more heat but not much more power, if any (if you use the stock drive). And for playing back 24-bit files, 24/48 should play back fine while there may be some issues/lag with the 24/96 files. Here's a link to contact the Creative developer group: http://developer.creative.com/contactus/feedback.asp?where=us

Send many requests to update the firmware and they may do it.

Dan

[John Kelly]

A 4200rpm drive can write 24/96 just fine, and can do 24/192 as well. 

[JackoRoses]

I sent an email, I don't think any of us will get anywhere with these requests but it can't hurt
to ask the source first.

[Ed.]

what did you say in your email?  i'd send one but don't really know what to say, and i doubt "please make the jb3 record 24 bit files digitally" would work.  there's a large amount of jb3 tapers, i bet if we had a general email we could individually spice up if needed would be great.  not to mention, adding this info to dat-heads and getting everyone on there to send an email as well.  if we get enuf people involved, they might actually think about it.

[Simp-Dawg]

how about something like this:

Dear Developers at Creative,

As you may or may not be aware, your Nomad Jukebox 3 players have found themselves a niche within the live audio recording community (we call ourselves "tapers").  The digital optical input, and ability to record CD quality (16-bit, 44.1/48kHz WAV), not to mention 3 hour time limit and quick data transfers were exactly what this group needed to replace a dying technology - DAT.

In the past few years, as high-resolution recording and playback has become more attainable, we now search for the ability to record up to 24-bit, 96/192kHz in WAV format.  Through our extensive testing and discovery with the JB3, we have found it to be able to playback these higher resolution files, indicating the capability of these machines is greater than we thought.  Opening one of them up, one "taper" notes that the ADC chip (http://www.semiconductors.philips.com/pip/UDA1380.html) actually supports 24-bit resolution, and up to 48kHz sample rate.  This is typically plenty for our needs, as the upgrade from 16 to 24-bit is more noticeable in many circumstances.

The only obstacle in tapping into the full 24-bit capabilities of the JB3 is the firmware, which none of us have experience with.  Is it possible that the firmware of the JB3 can be modified to allow 24-bit files to be written to disk?

Thank you for your time,
[your name]

edit: spelling and "taper" clarification

[Ed.]

excellent, +t simpy

thats exactly what we needed.

[dano420]

Here's what I initially sent them:

I would like to know if you could revise the firmware for the Nomad Jukebox 3 to
support 24-bit audio input. After looking at the datasheet for the UDA1380TT ADC/DAC
audio chip that is in the Jukebox 3, it does support 24-bit audio input at a maximum
of 48khz sample rate. I know that it will not support 24-bit at 96khz but at least
24-bit at 48khz would be great. There are a LOT of people that would greatly
appreciate this change.



(I know the wording could have been better - like the above post- great job!)

This is the response I got:



Thank you for contacting Creative Technical Support.; we appreciate the
opportunity to assist you.

Regarding your issue here, I understand that you want to allow the
Jukebox 3 player to play up to 24Bit at 96khz sampling rate. You may
want to do a feedback regarding this:

http://developer.creative.com/contactus/feedback.asp?where=us

Thank you for your feedback. If you need further assistance, do to get
back to us and we will be glad to help you. Have a nice day!

For faster service please reply with previous correspondence when
replying to this email.



So we need to make sure that they know we want the firmware change for RECORDING and not just playback.

[dklein]

This product has been out of production for quite a while.  I would be blown away if they put a single hour of development time into it.
Getting them to release source code is probably the only shot we have at making changes.

[Chad817]

This product has been out of production for quite a while.  I would be blown away if they put a single hour of development time into it.
Getting them to release source code is probably the only shot we have at making changes.

agreed.  I think the only way we'd see it (if it is possible) is if someone taper-minded got ahold of the source code to work with.  I really don't think Creative will put any effort into it.

[Bdifr78]

Maybe we should let them know the magnitude of the taper market and encourage them to make the next version of there hdd format players with optical input and recording options similar to the jb3.  This wouldn't effect the cost to them that much and it would get them enough sales from us to make up that cost anyway.  It could be smaller than the jb3 and a hell of a lot cheaper than the flash tracker and a 4 or 8 gb cf card.  Or a nice PDA and a big flash card.

I dunno...just a thought

[Brian Skalinder]

Maybe we should let them know the magnitude of the taper market

The "taper market" is downright miniscule compared to their target consumer base and will never drive any company's product decisions.  We got lucky with the JB3, nothing more.  All the gear we use is targeted towards other, broader markets - it just happens to suit our purposes.

[BJ]

There is a link to become a developer for creative(on left side of page linked above)....this is an independent devloper...you may be able to sign up using that link and get the firmware from creative for the jb3.  I honestly think that once the firmware is obtained......the changes could be made. 

[Bdifr78]

Maybe we should let them know the magnitude of the taper market

The "taper market" is downright miniscule compared to their target consumer base and will never drive any company's product decisions.  We got lucky with the JB3, nothing more.  All the gear we use is targeted towards other, broader markets - it just happens to suit our purposes.

I do understand that in the scope of their target market we are relatively small, but it wouldn't cost them much to add those features and it would have them sell a few thousand more units of such an item.  Being that I work for an electronics manufacturer I know my company would make changes to a product that didn't cost them much if it ended up satisfying another market completely and gained customer loyalty even if the market wasn't huge.  That opens the door to new products in the future and sometimes you take those risks to open up those doors.  Honestly, I know we would never influence them to do this, but anything creative can do to sell a few more units should be done.  Considering the market share that apple has in portable audio, they need to stretch thier market if they want to stay in that game. 

I realize I am in my own little dream world here, but from a business stand point if the costs are as little as I think to do something like that you they really couldn't lose.  My bottom line here I guess is that if you can add a feature to a product and sell enough extra units to just break even because of that feature, than you have made an amazing decision because you have gained that many more customers who might have never purchased from your company again.  Maybe the business I am involved in operates differently, but I just think if you can expand your customer base you do it.  If someone is satisfied with an electronics purchase they are something like 75% more likely to buy from that company again.

But hell someone just needs to figure out the firmware situation and we would all be very happy!

[nickgregory]

I think you are (1) overestimating the number of units that could be sold...I am guessing more in the couple hundred...and (2) underestimating the cost of development....even if it was just a simple SW fix, which we have no idea if that is the case, and no way to really know for sure, they would have to pull designers working on other products off of those to complete this.  Add to it that when they design it, there is a support function that has to be staffed (what if it doesnt work as it should), which also would take resources off of other items.

[Bdifr78]

I think you are (1) overestimating the number of units that could be sold...I am guessing more in the couple hundred...and (2) underestimating the cost of development....even if it was just a simple SW fix, which we have no idea if that is the case, and no way to really know for sure, they would have to pull designers working on other products off of those to complete this.  Add to it that when they design it, there is a support function that has to be staffed (what if it doesnt work as it should), which also would take resources off of other items.

Well if you think it is more like a couple hundred than of course it would be a terrible idea.  But how many jb3s do you think are in use in the feild for taping?

If that is the case than from a business stand point then fuck it!  But I was thinking more like a few thousand.  And honestly I can't imagine creative sells more than 20,000 units of their latest mp3 players and a few thousand would be a nice percent of the total units sold.  I am obviously underestimating the costs too in your opinion though.  They have already used this technology in another product and it seems to be relatively reliable and once the technology is created it really doesn't cost much more to put it into another product and support it.  I think they could come damn close to breaking even, and if you can do that and put your brand name in a few thousand more households than you have made a great business decision.   Brand equity is the number 1 thing that sells electronics.  And like I stated before, if creative wants to stay in the portable audio business they are gonna need all the help they can get.

[nickgregory]

well, we can disagree on the number of JB3s in the field...there arent that many tapers out there...and hell, alot of them I know still swear by their DATs....but lets assume it is maybe 1000 units...you are right that it is a cash cow IF it works right...if they have any problems with this unit at 24 bits, which the 722/744 proved can happen even with lots of R&D dollars sunk into it...it could become a support nightmare...

and I agree on the brand equity comment, but if tapers stopped buying Nomads products, I doubt the impact would be anything more than a pin prick to them...the taper population and the associated expendable incombe, while high for some folks, is not nearly the profit motivating factor for companies as some believe

[Bdifr78]

well, we can disagree on the number of JB3s in the field...there arent that many tapers out there...and hell, alot of them I know still swear by their DATs....but lets assume it is maybe 1000 units...you are right that it is a cash cow IF it works right...if they have any problems with this unit at 24 bits, which the 722/744 proved can happen even with lots of R&D dollars sunk into it...it could become a support nightmare...

and I agree on the brand equity comment, but if tapers stopped buying Nomads products, I doubt the impact would be anything more than a pin prick to them...the taper population and the associated expendable incombe, while high for some folks, is not nearly the profit motivating factor for companies as some believe

I know   I wanted to argue it and defend my orginal comment but you are so right.  I guess if portable audio was the only thing creative did then it would be more of a reality.  Like I said earlier I am in my own little dream world on this topic.

In regards to your comments about the potential support nightmare, I guess I work for a company that is willing to take much larger risks and that is where I base most of my statements from.  My business mind frame is soley based on my experiences with my current employer.  Fortunately we are privately held and we sink millions of dollars into projects that never see the light of day, and never have to turn a quick profit.  And plenty of money into added features that benefit our customers even when they have no idea they are there and we would never market those specific features.  So my view point here is a little screwed up.

I guess one can only wish that big companies did more for the little guy.  I would love to know how many jb3 are in use in the field though. 

[wbrisette]

I know   I wanted to argue it and defend my orginal comment but you are so right.  I guess if portable audio was the only thing creative did then it would be more of a reality.  Like I said earlier I am in my own little dream world on this topic.

Creative couldn't give two sh*ts about the taping community. They have their eyes set on trying to come up with something that will knock the iPod off the top of the heap. They do have other things other than portable audio, but as Apple has shown, portable audio can be very profitable when done right.

At this point I think the best you can do is hope that somebody else who already has the firmware and knowledge is willing to try it out. But there isn't a single thing wrong with dreaming.

Wayne

[bluesbrooks]

I just wnated to comment on the firmware issue. I was reading on the nomadness site and reading about the firmware issue. It seems everyone is unable to have the jukebox player take the firmware something about a creative key. I think there able to open files but it wont let them do anything without a certain key that tells the program that creative is working on it. i think the best bet is someone making something new instead of editing or hope that someone can talk creative into releasing the source. I dont see how it could hurt them releasing a source that is a couple years old now and is probably no where near what they are using now to compete with these other mp3 makers. Just my thoughts.

[Kindguy]

I've tried before when I ran a warm UA-5. 24/48 nothing but pops & clicks With a little music in the backround.