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Author Topic: not enough volume with mics > battery box > iRiver  (Read 7684 times)

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Offline NOTHINGFAN

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Re: not enough volume with mics > battery box > iRiver
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2008, 12:12:18 PM »
SP-CMC-4U (ATU853) cards > custom battery box > iRiver h120 with Rockbox

My mics are two separate mics, not terminated together, with XLR plugs. (if that explains things better).

Sounds like you have stock AT mics to me.  Did you order from SP with individual mini XLR terminations?

My gain on my iRiver is set to 0. 

As pointed out, that is the source of your 'not enough volume' complaint.  Your battery box isn't supplying any gain, so you need to supply gain somewhere to adjust your recording levels (i.e. via the H120). 

You are going to like the results much better than what you have been doing (i.e. boosting in post via software).



I bought the mics from someone on this board.  This was the link provided when it was posted...

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-CMC-4U

and thanks for the advice on the gain.  this is what I was looking for.  Like stated previously, I just didn't know what to set it to.

Audio: SP-CMC-4U > custom battery box > iRiver h120 with Rockbox
Video: Sony DCR-HC21

Offline NOTHINGFAN

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Re: not enough volume with mics > battery box > iRiver
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2008, 12:14:20 PM »
Why not crank your stereo and play with the gain of your iRiver at home.  That will give you the chance to find out how hard you may be able to push the iRiver preamp before you get into a lot of noise. 

Then you can relax more at a show and be confidant of pulling a better tape.

Joe

I'd do this, but I don't have a good stereo at home enough for it to sound like a show.  A taper friend of mine told me to do this as well.

I think I'm just going to stick with the advice about just putting it up to 20, and see how that goes.

Does anyone know if once I set it to that, would I have to keep setting it to that for every recording, or will the iRiver save my settings?
Audio: SP-CMC-4U > custom battery box > iRiver h120 with Rockbox
Video: Sony DCR-HC21

Offline Liquid Drum

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Re: not enough volume with mics > battery box > iRiver
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2008, 12:20:29 PM »
Experiment.

Crank up your stereo and place your mics close to the speaker/s. Then play around with the gain and see how your levels work. Obviously it will be louder at an actual show so make sure that whatever setting you get that works, to turn it down a few notches on the night.

Remember, your battery box doesn't add any gain at all, you must add gain from the Iriver. +20db on both channels sounds like a good start, remember to activate safety clip just in case the 20db is too much (it will turn it down for you automatically).

It is better to add gain while recording than to add gain in post.

Mics:
AT933/C

Batt-Boxes, Pre-amps:
CA-9100

Recorders:
Edirol R-09
iRiver H120 (CF Modded)
Sony MZ-RH910 Hi-MD

Video: Canon HV20 E

Offline NOTHINGFAN

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Re: not enough volume with mics > battery box > iRiver
« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2008, 01:25:34 PM »
Experiment.

Crank up your stereo and place your mics close to the speaker/s. Then play around with the gain and see how your levels work. Obviously it will be louder at an actual show so make sure that whatever setting you get that works, to turn it down a few notches on the night.

Remember, your battery box doesn't add any gain at all, you must add gain from the Iriver. +20db on both channels sounds like a good start, remember to activate safety clip just in case the 20db is too much (it will turn it down for you automatically).

It is better to add gain while recording than to add gain in post.



I'll give it a shot.  I think I already have the safety clip activated.  According to that guide.
Audio: SP-CMC-4U > custom battery box > iRiver h120 with Rockbox
Video: Sony DCR-HC21

Offline Liquid Drum

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Re: not enough volume with mics > battery box > iRiver
« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2008, 03:30:15 PM »
Experiment.

Crank up your stereo and place your mics close to the speaker/s. Then play around with the gain and see how your levels work. Obviously it will be louder at an actual show so make sure that whatever setting you get that works, to turn it down a few notches on the night.

Remember, your battery box doesn't add any gain at all, you must add gain from the Iriver. +20db on both channels sounds like a good start, remember to activate safety clip just in case the 20db is too much (it will turn it down for you automatically).

It is better to add gain while recording than to add gain in post.



I'll give it a shot.  I think I already have the safety clip activated.  According to that guide.

Good luck. If you have any more questions, fire away!   :)
Mics:
AT933/C

Batt-Boxes, Pre-amps:
CA-9100

Recorders:
Edirol R-09
iRiver H120 (CF Modded)
Sony MZ-RH910 Hi-MD

Video: Canon HV20 E

Offline Sunday Driver

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Re: not enough volume with mics > battery box > iRiver
« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2008, 04:38:35 PM »
NOTHINGFAN, you are not getting any gain because of the way you are powering the mics. You are using the three wire battery box, which powers the mics properly but doesn't give you any gain. In fact, if you compare it to two wire powering (Sound Pro method), you lose about 8db of gain. Just boost the levels on the iRiver to compensate. The iRiver has plenty of analog gain.

This is what I was thinking, but didn't know what to set the gain on the iRiver at.  That's pretty much my question.  Thanks for you help.

What you want to do is increase the levels of your iRiver until the two meters almost reach all the way to the right. The iRiver has clear, accurate gain meters, although there are no db markings. Navigate down to "Gain:" and move the "joystick" to the right until decent levels are reached.

If you set your gain to 0, it would definitely make sense that your recordings were coming out low. Just running AT831s on two wire powering with a battery box, I had to add at least 8-12db of gain with the iRiver at a loud show. For your gear, more gain would be required.
You either record it or it's gone forever.
My Tapes

Offline Sunday Driver

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Re: not enough volume with mics > battery box > iRiver
« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2008, 04:42:42 PM »
Why not crank your stereo and play with the gain of your iRiver at home.  That will give you the chance to find out how hard you may be able to push the iRiver preamp before you get into a lot of noise. 

Then you can relax more at a show and be confidant of pulling a better tape.

Joe

I'd do this, but I don't have a good stereo at home enough for it to sound like a show.  A taper friend of mine told me to do this as well.

I think I'm just going to stick with the advice about just putting it up to 20, and see how that goes.

Does anyone know if once I set it to that, would I have to keep setting it to that for every recording, or will the iRiver save my settings?

It saves the gain setting. But you can always adjust it while recording.

Personally, I would turn safety clip off.
You either record it or it's gone forever.
My Tapes

Offline Dede2002

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Re: not enough volume with mics > battery box > iRiver
« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2008, 06:20:41 PM »

My gain on my iRiver is set to 0.  So I'm assuming if I crank it up to 20, I'd be good to go? 

Exactly. Crank up the gain in Rockbox to say +20-24dB, activate safety clip in the recording settings, and see the invisible hand setting your gain just nicely below clipping level!

Off course Dede is also right that an external pre like the CA-9100 will give a much cleaner gain. But for guys like us who are short of money, or paranoid about pat-downs and wanding by security, less gear is a trade-off we have to take.

I'm still convinced that adding gain during the recording stage on the iRiver makes more sense than keeping the input level at +0dB and tring to boost it in post.

Hey Sunjan,

I am short of money AND paranoid about pat-downs and wanding by security too.
It's just that I can't help myself: I'm a compulsive buyer ;D ;D ;D
Mics..........................SP-CMC-8, HLSC-1 and HLSO-MICRO
BB and Preamps........MM Micro bb / MM Custom Elite bb / Church 9100
                              
Recorders...................Tascam DR-100MKIII, Marantz PMD 620 MKII, Edirol R-09

Offline bugg100

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Re: not enough volume with mics > battery box > iRiver
« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2008, 07:34:24 PM »
The iriver will remember the last setting where it was shut down at, so yeah, Safety Clip (why wouldn't you?) and for me gain of about 6 or 7.  But I use the 9100 pre, maybe 15 with the battery box.  It might be better to start a little low and ramp up versus too high and distorted.  Do you have a remote?  They really makes these easy recorders to use.

I like to set the meters to show only the last 15dB (-15 to 0dB), that way you are able to get finer resolution on the meters.  Even if your stereo isn't super loud, you can still get benefit from the practice and checking pre-amp noise.  Good luck and let us know how it turns out!

Offline NOTHINGFAN

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Re: not enough volume with mics > battery box > iRiver
« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2008, 08:54:24 PM »
NOTHINGFAN, you are not getting any gain because of the way you are powering the mics. You are using the three wire battery box, which powers the mics properly but doesn't give you any gain. In fact, if you compare it to two wire powering (Sound Pro method), you lose about 8db of gain. Just boost the levels on the iRiver to compensate. The iRiver has plenty of analog gain.

This is what I was thinking, but didn't know what to set the gain on the iRiver at.  That's pretty much my question.  Thanks for you help.

What you want to do is increase the levels of your iRiver until the two meters almost reach all the way to the right. The iRiver has clear, accurate gain meters, although there are no db markings. Navigate down to "Gain:" and move the "joystick" to the right until decent levels are reached.

If you set your gain to 0, it would definitely make sense that your recordings were coming out low. Just running AT831s on two wire powering with a battery box, I had to add at least 8-12db of gain with the iRiver at a loud show. For your gear, more gain would be required.

thanks you!  this makes things so much clearer.  i totally understand what you're talking about and I'll do this for my next recording.  +T

Audio: SP-CMC-4U > custom battery box > iRiver h120 with Rockbox
Video: Sony DCR-HC21

Offline Sunday Driver

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Re: not enough volume with mics > battery box > iRiver
« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2008, 09:55:23 PM »
You're welcome!

bugg100, I just don't like AGC. I like to have full control over my recording levels, without Rockbox deciding when it is time to reduce gain.

You either record it or it's gone forever.
My Tapes

Offline sunjan

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Re: not enough volume with mics > battery box > iRiver
« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2008, 05:53:44 AM »
bugg100, I just don't like AGC. I like to have full control over my recording levels, without Rockbox deciding when it is time to reduce gain.
Safety clip is not your normal AGC. Explanation in this thread:
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,85679.msg1139890.html#msg1139890

You can set your levels manually and still have safety clip activated. It'll only kick in if the band suddenly would start to play really loud.

Apart from using safetly clip, there's no other way I could have "full control" over the levels than staring at my levels for 90 minutes.
Mics: A-51s LE, CK 930, Line Audo CM3, AT853Rx (hc,c,sc),  ECM 121, ECM 909A
Pres: Tinybox, CA-9100, UA5 wmod
Recorders: M10, H116 (CF mod), H340, NJB3
Gearbag: High Sierra Corkscrew
MD transfers: MZ-RH1. Tape transfers: Nak DR-1
Photo rig: Nikon D70, 18-70mm/3.5-4.5, SB-800

Offline Sunday Driver

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Re: not enough volume with mics > battery box > iRiver
« Reply #27 on: May 22, 2008, 11:02:27 AM »
bugg100, I just don't like AGC. I like to have full control over my recording levels, without Rockbox deciding when it is time to reduce gain.
Safety clip is not your normal AGC. Explanation in this thread:
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,85679.msg1139890.html#msg1139890

You can set your levels manually and still have safety clip activated. It'll only kick in if the band suddenly would start to play really loud.

Apart from using safetly clip, there's no other way I could have "full control" over the levels than staring at my levels for 90 minutes.

Thanks, sunjan, perhaps I will give it a try. In terms of levels, I tend to "set it and forget it" though.
All of this will be moot once my new Edirol R-09HR arrives.  :P I do love my h120 though.
You either record it or it's gone forever.
My Tapes

Offline symfan

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Re: not enough volume with mics > battery box > iRiver
« Reply #28 on: May 25, 2008, 01:45:11 PM »
But I use the 9100 pre, maybe 15 with the battery box.  It might be better to start a little low and ramp up versus too high and distorted.  [..]

I like to set the meters to show only the last 15dB (-15 to 0dB), that way you are able to get finer resolution on the meters.  Even if your stereo isn't super loud, you can still get benefit from the practice and checking pre-amp noise.  Good luck and let us know how it turns out!

Hi, I've been reading this thread and learned a few new things.
A question comes to mind regarding the levels of preset on the pre-amp.

I have Core cards and pre-amp Church 9000. I can control the output from the pre-amp. Should I max it out and control the recording level with my iRiver (H340, rockbox))? Or would it be better to set it about half and then raise the level on the iRiver?

Marcel
My gear: church ST-11 Cards - STC-9000 - iRiver H340.

Offline sunjan

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Re: not enough volume with mics > battery box > iRiver
« Reply #29 on: May 25, 2008, 05:00:11 PM »
A question comes to mind regarding the levels of preset on the pre-amp.

I have Core cards and pre-amp Church 9000. I can control the output from the pre-amp. Should I max it out and control the recording level with my iRiver (H340, rockbox))? Or would it be better to set it about half and then raise the level on the iRiver?

My understanding is that the CA-9000 gain is cleaner than the iRiver gain. So you should aim at adding 0 gain on the iRiver. Crank up the gain on the pre, but just enough for your levels to max out without any iRiver gain. If you work this together with the Safety clip, you're golden.
Mics: A-51s LE, CK 930, Line Audo CM3, AT853Rx (hc,c,sc),  ECM 121, ECM 909A
Pres: Tinybox, CA-9100, UA5 wmod
Recorders: M10, H116 (CF mod), H340, NJB3
Gearbag: High Sierra Corkscrew
MD transfers: MZ-RH1. Tape transfers: Nak DR-1
Photo rig: Nikon D70, 18-70mm/3.5-4.5, SB-800

 

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