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Gear / Technical Help => Microphones & Setup => Topic started by: cashandkerouac on January 22, 2011, 09:31:05 PM
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my research on high end mics continues and i've been listening to some recordings that used the Sennheiser MKH8040 cardioid mics. to my ears these mics have sounded the best of anything else that i've checked out. they're a little outside of my original budget (i was hoping to keep it under $1,500), but the 8040s are extremely pleasing to my ears. within my original budget i was very much liking the Beyerdynamic ck930, but i think the MKH 8040 may be worth the extra coin. thoughts? opinions? pros and cons? i'd appreciate any feedback that anyone could provide. thanks.
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8040's are very nice indeed but they'll run you almost 2x your budget (not quite).
they are very full sounding
give a listen to some Milab VM-44's
I really wanted a pair of the 8040's as well, borrowed some and made some recordings- sounded great!
loved the way the Neumann KM140's sounded too- always have
but really like the natural sound of the Milab's
they will come in under your budget
---Ian
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8040's are very nice indeed but they'll run you almost 2x your budget (not quite).
they are very full sounding
give a listen to some Milab VM-44's
I really wanted a pair of the 8040's as well, borrowed some and made some recordings- sounded great!
loved the way the Neumann KM140's sounded too- always have
but really like the natural sound of the Milab's
they will come in under your budget
---Ian
been checking out the milab shows, really likeing there sound. would deff check them out. ed
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8040's are very nice indeed but they'll run you almost 2x your budget (not quite).
they are very full sounding
give a listen to some Milab VM-44's
I really wanted a pair of the 8040's as well, borrowed some and made some recordings- sounded great!
loved the way the Neumann KM140's sounded too- always have
but really like the natural sound of the Milab's
they will come in under your budget
---Ian
been checking out the milab shows, really likeing there sound. would deff check them out. ed
agreed. the Milab VM-44 links do sound very good. price-wise, however, they seem to be in the same range as the 8040s. unless i'm missing something the decision to go with one versus the other would come down to preference; cost doesn't seem to be much of a factor.
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A pair of milabs can be had new for around 1500.....Try TNJAZZ on here I believe he sells them through his company Purple Dog Studio's ...
OOK
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8040's are very nice indeed but they'll run you almost 2x your budget (not quite).
they are very full sounding
give a listen to some Milab VM-44's
I really wanted a pair of the 8040's as well, borrowed some and made some recordings- sounded great!
loved the way the Neumann KM140's sounded too- always have
but really like the natural sound of the Milab's
they will come in under your budget
---Ian
been checking out the milab shows, really likeing there sound. would deff check them out. ed
agreed. the Milab VM-44 links do sound very good. price-wise, however, they seem to be in the same range as the 8040s. unless i'm missing something the decision to go with one versus the other would come down to preference; cost doesn't seem to be much of a factor.
when I looked into the 8040's a matched pair was about $2450
may be they have dramatically come down since then
oh herehttp://www.fullcompass.com/product/347622.html (http://www.fullcompass.com/product/347622.html)
I got my VM44-links at Full compass (Ron V my rep since 1997) for less than $1300 - non matched pair- but also ended up with a loaner matched pair and the frequency test plots of mine are with in the tolerances of a "factory Matched" pair.
there is the full bodied version in the YS by F0cker
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=142313.0 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=142313.0)
if you actually talk to a rep at full compass you can lower prices than any web pricing they state.
--Ian
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my research on high end mics continues and i've been listening to some recordings that used the Sennheiser MKH8040 cardioid mics. to my ears these mics have sounded the best of anything else that i've checked out. they're a little outside of my original budget (i was hoping to keep it under $1,500), but the 8040s are extremely pleasing to my ears. within my original budget i was very much liking the Beyerdynamic ck930, but i think the MKH 8040 may be worth the extra coin. thoughts? opinions? pros and cons? i'd appreciate any feedback that anyone could provide. thanks.
I love the MKH 8040s and have a stereoset myself - I added to the kit this month by getting the MKH 8020 stereoset as well, together with the floor stand accessories.
I would say well worth the extra.
My old MKH 40s are 26 years old and still going strong and I expect the same or better from the MKH 8000 series.
;D
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A pair of milabs can be had new for around 1500.....Try TNJAZZ on here I believe he sells them through his company Purple Dog Studio's ...
OOK
i checked into this and the price has gone up. the Milabs are now on par with the cost of the Sennheisers. that being the case, i'll likely go with the Sennheisers. thanks for your help.
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Of course, everyone around here knows I love Milabs. And not to push them that much over the Senns, which I've never used but have heard great things about -- but I'm surprised by the comment about the Milab pricing.
A quick internet check shows the VM44 classics at something less than $730 each (says to call for pricing as MAP is in effect):
http://www.midi-classics.com/u/u29179.htm
I'm sure Purple Dog and Full Compass have similar pricing on Milabs. Compared to street pricing on the Senns that look like about $1200 each. Seems like a pair of VM44 classics can be had for almost $1000 less than the MKH8040's. ???
And to reiterate what has already been posted, Chris has a less than one year old pair for sale:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=142313.0
Nothing against the Senns at all, and you should definitely go for them if you want them. I'm just surprised that the Milabs would cost anything close to the Senns ($1000 Milab list vs $2000 Senn list).
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Just a note, anything European that you are buying new, keep and eye on the exchange rate. Fluxuations over a couple of months can translate to a couple hundred dollars after conversion. I've definately waited it out for my own benefit before, just be careful about it swinging the other way.
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I've always wondered why so few tapers use the Senn 8040s since they are modular, compact, have a good reputation, and seem to be appropriate for concert taping purposes.
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I've always wondered why so few tapers use the Senn 8040s since they are modular, compact, have a good reputation, and seem to be appropriate for concert taping purposes.
I always say the same about MBHO's ???
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A pair of milabs can be had new for around 1500.....Try TNJAZZ on here I believe he sells them through his company Purple Dog Studio's ...
OOK
i checked into this and the price has gone up. the Milabs are now on par with the cost of the Sennheisers. that being the case, i'll likely go with the Sennheisers. thanks for your help.
For an actual *factory matched pair* this is a true statement. Two single mics used as a pair will almost definitely be within the tolerances expected for a pair and the cost is significantly less.
Dirk
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My Milabs are NOT factory matched: however when I sent mine back to Sweden for repair via FDW-W that took a long time (3 months) I was sent a loaner "Factory Matched" pair from FDW-Worldwide - the main US milab distributor associated with Full Compass.
to restate: the B&K test plots that came with my pair, were within the same tolerances of the B&K test plots of the "Factory Matched pair"
My feeling is that Milab has quite good quality control on their capsules.
I know it is always hit or miss when you don't get a factory matched pair. I do really like the 8040's when I used them- I do feel that over all I like my milabs as they seem more neutral to my ears.
however If I could get a pair of the 8040's for less than $1300 that would be sweet- may be someday and then the "active"(remote) cables for them....at $150 a pop... http://www.fullcompass.com/product/351464.html (http://www.fullcompass.com/product/351464.html)
a unique and so cool system.
if you got the cash - Do It!
--Ian
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was wondering if you could "build" a set by buying caps and seperate cheaper?
I doubt it
but found just the cap at Sears! : $1029.95 : http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_SPM178098328P?sid=IDx20101019x00001a&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=SPM178098328 (http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_SPM178098328P?sid=IDx20101019x00001a&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=SPM178098328)
to be fair also at Front End Audio : Our Price: $1,199.95 : http://www.frontendaudio.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=9999-04309&click=18920 (http://www.frontendaudio.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=9999-04309&click=18920)
oh at B&H its: Price: $999.95 : http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/532813-REG/Sennheiser_MKHC8040_MKHC_8040_Compact_Cardioid_Capsule.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/532813-REG/Sennheiser_MKHC8040_MKHC_8040_Compact_Cardioid_Capsule.html)
+ at B&H : XLR Power Module
Sennheiser - MZX 8000 XLR Module for MKH-8000 Capsules
B&H# SEMZX8000 MFR# MZX8000 : Price: $289.95
the Sennheiser MZX8000 XLR Module, MKHC at Full Compass: Our Price: $269.54 http://www.fullcompass.com/product/351578.html (http://www.fullcompass.com/product/351578.html)
interesting though
--Ian
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I've always wondered why so few tapers use the Senn 8040s since they are modular, compact, have a good reputation, and seem to be appropriate for concert taping purposes.
I always say the same about MBHO's ???
Actually - on the MKH 8000 series the complete mic. is in the head - the bottom bit is just an XLR adaptor with no internal electronics.
Shame that MBHO are not better known - they are excellent mics at a very reasonable price. :(
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I too have a pair of the MKH8040's, and think they're great, both in terms of sound as well as convenience. For me, they work particularly well in larger, open venues where the lows can get lost. I find I can pull a "fuller" sounding recording with these than with my 481's or 483's when taping at a distance, they have good low freq. sensitivity. That's a double-edged sword, however - if you also record in close quarters in boomy rooms, be sure to get some attenuators. I have the matching pad/roll-offs made by Senn and they work well, but you can also save some $$$ and just get some generic barrel pads, they work well too. -10db or -20db if it's really boomy and you'll be fine.
Without the pads, in small venues with a lot of bass, the signal from the 8040's would clip my MixPre, which, considering its generally bulletproof input stage, is insane.
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Do the 8040s have active cables?
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yes.
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Do the 8040s have active cables?
No - they don't need them.
The head of the MKH 8000 series is the complete microphone, the XLR module is only a passive adaptor to convert the screw connector to XLR and it has no electronics inside at all.
Yes - the series has remote cables and extension tubes - but these are, in effect, just balanced cables.
Only Schoeps have "active cables" with active electronics in the cables. They need this as the Schoeps heads are just capsules, rather than complete microphones.
In fact the Sennheiser remote cables and extension tubes are all stereo enabled - so, with a Y-cable - you can run a pair of heads down a single cable.
The pictures below show my stereo rig with MKH 8020 heads (though I *do* have 8040 heads as well):-
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That last shot is sexy.
Dig the nextel-ishy finish on the mics and stereo bar.
What stereo t-bar is that John?
-todd
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That last shot is sexy.
Dig the nextel-ishy finish on the mics and stereo bar.
What stereo t-bar is that John?
The stereo bar is a custom one.
A friend had a few made for his hire company to go with Schoeps mics.
But some came out a little too dark - so I bought one of the dark ones from him as it perfectly matched the dark Nextel of the MKH 8000 series.
So it's not on general sale - sorry.
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the 8040s arrived a couple of days ago. i knew they were small, but they are even smaller than i expected. if everything comes together as planned they will have their "maiden voyage" on April 4. :)
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the 8040s arrived a couple of days ago. i knew they were small, but they are even smaller than i expected. if everything comes together as planned they will have their "maiden voyage" on April 4. :)
Congrats and best of luck ;)
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What would be the best windscreen/ windsock for these mics for outdoor recording.
I really want to get rid of the wind problem.
THANKS,
AB
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The pictures below show my stereo rig with MKH 8020 heads
:drool:
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What would be the best windscreen/ windsock for these mics for outdoor recording.
I really want to get rid of the wind problem.
THANKS,
AB
Shure A81WS bigass shures 8) They will handle your problems w/ wind ;)
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the 8040s arrived a couple of days ago. i knew they were small, but they are even smaller than i expected. if everything comes together as planned they will have their "maiden voyage" on April 4. :)
well, the stars didn't align on 04/04, so now i'm hoping that i can put these new mics to use on 04/07. quick question for those who have experience with the 8040s... would you recommend an X-Y, NOS/DIN or AB configuration for these mics? i recorded some home samples over the weekend and found the NOS/DIN configurations better than X-Y. however, i was surprised to find that the AB setup also worked very well (despite the fact that these are cards not omnis). granted, my samples were made under circumstances that do not match with a concert environment, but its the only live test data i have to inform my decision for the first run. if there is no clear consensus i'll probably go with NOS/DIN. thanks in advance.
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There is no simple answer to your question. Whether to use X-Y, NOS, DIN, ORTF, AB etc. does not depend so much on the particular mics, but on the particular situation. If the mics are close to the performers, I've found the wider spaced configurations (NOS, AB30, AB60, AB120) have that "hole-in-the-middle" sound, at least to my ears. On the other hand, if you are far away, XY can sound almost mono. Don't be surprised that the AB technique works with cardioids; AB works with any microphone polar pattern, and you can use the polar pattern to reduce unwanted noise or reverberation.
It seems that you are considering NOS and DIN the same technique. DIN has 90 degree mics spaced 20 cm apart, whereas NOS has the mics space 30 cm apart. That 10 cm does make a difference, particularly if you a close to the performers.
Don't worry about what technique to use at first. Tape as much as you can, take notes (mic configuration, distance from stage, width of performers, hall size, etc) and/or take pictures, listen, and then revise. After a while you'll be able to listen to the performers in a room and know what technique will probably give you the sound you want.
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There is no simple answer to your question. Whether to use X-Y, NOS, DIN, ORTF, AB etc. does not depend so much on the particular mics, but on the particular situation. If the mics are close to the performers, I've found the wider spaced configurations (NOS, AB30, AB60, AB120) have that "hole-in-the-middle" sound, at least to my ears. On the other hand, if you are far away, XY can sound almost mono. Don't be surprised that the AB technique works with cardioids; AB works with any microphone polar pattern, and you can use the polar pattern to reduce unwanted noise or reverberation.
It seems that you are considering NOS and DIN the same technique. DIN has 90 degree mics spaced 20 cm apart, whereas NOS has the mics space 30 cm apart. That 10 cm does make a difference, particularly if you a close to the performers.
Don't worry about what technique to use at first. Tape as much as you can, take notes (mic configuration, distance from stage, width of performers, hall size, etc) and/or take pictures, listen, and then revise. After a while you'll be able to listen to the performers in a room and know what technique will probably give you the sound you want.
"notlance": thanks for the thoughtful, comprehensive, and very clear response. it's easy to forget about all the variables that factor into a setup for any particular night.... hall size, indoor/outdoor, distance from stage, stage size/height/band spacing, etc. i suppose your absolutely right... regardless of the mic, there is no "best" setup or "one size fits all" solution, so thanks for reminding me of that. your advice is prudent and i will take it seriously.
i think that similar to real estate a lot of the end result is largely a function of "location, location, location". if you're in the sweet spot of a venue, slight errors or misjudgement in setup are somewhat forgiven. due to my background as a musician (amateur, that is), some formal training in sound recording, and good ears i think my best taping skill/assett is knowing where to set up so that i have the best chance of getting a good recording. now that i have good equipment i'm trying to maximize the benefit of good quality mics/preamps/recorders at my disposal. nevertheless, there is still a lot of trial and error that will have to happen, and a lot of knowledge and experience that i have yet to obtain. taping live shows is far different than recording in a controlled studio environment, and more challenging in my opinion. but it's alot of fun!
i've greatly benefitted over the years from the wonderful recordings of others - there are few things that i appreciate more than live music - and i want to be able to give back by sharing good quality recordings of my own. perhaps that's a tad bit corny, but it's the truth. thanks again for the advice. cheers!
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Check out the sticky at the top of this forum for a link to the Stereophonic Zoom. It may help you understand -- all else being equal -- how changing the mic configuration changes the sonic characteristics of the recording, mainly with respect to stereo imaging. I tend not to restrict myself to specific "named" configurations (ORTF, DIN, NOS, etc.) and vary the configuration for each individual recording scenario.
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I tend not to restrict myself to specific "named" configurations (ORTF, DIN, NOS, etc.) and vary the configuration for each individual recording scenario.
Same here, but 9 out of 10 times I'm DFC/FOB, so I can stick w/ DINa/DIN/NOS/etc....
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well, i got to run the 8040s last night at the Chris Robinson Brotherhood show in Petaluma. fun show, cool venue, all that good stuff... as for the mics, i am very happy with the result. per the recommendation of another forum member familiar with the venue, i set up in the exact spot where i was referred (DFC at the first rail behind the dance floor), but band management thought my mic stand would be a distraction so they asked me to move to the rear of the floor. i politely complied, but quickly realized that i was very proximate to the bar and the talkers. oh well, what was i to do? i pushed on, hoped that folks would chill, and kept my fingers crossed that the mics wouldn't pick up the distracting activity to my rear (and let me say, at times it was very distracting).
the mics were set up somewhere in between a DIN and ORTF configuration. i intended to set mics at 90 degrees, but thought that the angle was too wide for my floor position and relation to the stacks. so, i let the stage setup and my position on the floor dictate the mic positions. i would have liked to keep my mics at 7'-8' feet, but ended up at about 10', which i thought was high. i really wanted to avoid the excessive talking that was very close by and decided to take what the room and the crowd would give me. going high with the stand seemed to be where i was being pushed.
when i got home and first heard the recording i had two reactions. 1) i was psyched that i successfully navigated the talkers. all those distracting talkers were significantly minimized (with a few minor and very brief exceptions that didn't amount to much at all). that was very positive. yeah, go cards! 2) on the other hand i was very disappointed. the overall sound was very "boomy" ...way too much bass and not nearly the top end that i expected from these mics. the recording was flat and somewhat two dimensional. i thought i had royally "eff'd up".
in an effort to salvage what i could from the master tracks, i applied some light EQ. i took the bass down 6db at the very low end and increased the trebles 6db at the very high end. what i ended up with was truly pleasing. the recording opened up tremendously, took on a very representative 3-D feel of the room, and had that airy top end that i was hoping for while still maintaining good low end. a night and day transformation with very little fiddling at all. (i know.... some folks hate EQ. i'll take your criticism without reaction. it's cool if you hate me for post-production "fiddling")
the post-production debate aside, i'm surprised how much bass these 8040s pull down. i'm still not sure if it was mostly my set-up or if the 8040s are just "bass monsters". if so, should i opt to run the high pass filter on my recorder to compensate or just roll off the bass after the fact with some light post-production EQ?
all comments (good or bad) are welcomed and appreciated. thanks.
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the post-production debate aside, i'm surprised how much bass these 8040s pull down. i'm still not sure if it was mostly my set-up or if the 8040s are just "bass monsters". if so, should i opt to run the high pass filter on my recorder to compensate or just roll off the bass after the fact with some light post-production EQ?
Couple of things. I think the 8040s do pull down the bass, and the few recordings I've heard have been a little bass heavy or at least without presence if they havn't been touched. That said, what is the texture of the mic, and are you happy with that? I ask because you're right, you can EQ them, but getting a specific texture is much tougher without switching mic brands. Run them for a couple of shows and see what you think.
As for how to resolve this without changing mics; I'd do all of your adjustments in post. What you get from running HPF won't be what you're probably looking for most of the time since what your response curve looks like and what the rolloff curve looks like probably won't complement each other. You could always record an opener with HPF and the headliner without just to play around with it. I've done that before. Just be careful to make sure to turn it off if you're just playing, it's easy to forget (I've done that too, only to realize midset). Best of luck.
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the post-production debate aside, i'm surprised how much bass these 8040s pull down. i'm still not sure if it was mostly my set-up or if the 8040s are just "bass monsters". if so, should i opt to run the high pass filter on my recorder to compensate or just roll off the bass after the fact with some light post-production EQ?
Couple of things. I think the 8040s do pull down the bass, and the few recordings I've heard have been a little bass heavy or at least without presence if they havn't been touched. That said, what is the texture of the mic, and are you happy with that? I ask because you're right, you can EQ them, but getting a specific texture is much tougher without switching mic brands. Run them for a couple of shows and see what you think.
As for how to resolve this without changing mics; I'd do all of your adjustments in post. What you get from running HPF won't be what you're probably looking for most of the time since what your response curve looks like and what the rolloff curve looks like probably won't complement each other. You could always record an opener with HPF and the headliner without just to play around with it. I've done that before. Just be careful to make sure to turn it off if you're just playing, it's easy to forget (I've done that too, only to realize midset). Best of luck.
based on the results of my first outing with the 8040s i'm inclined to address and bass issues in post production (just as you've suggested). i really like the post-production results a lot. regardless of the mic, i prefer to tweek the sound in post production. for me that has always been the better option. the post production version of my first outing with the MKH8040 was just what i was expecting. the raw file is a little lacking, but the end result is very good. more ongoing experience with these mics will inform my methods and practices.
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The MKH 8040 don't hype the bass at all - but they do go a lot lower than most directional mics.
The 8040 are good down to 30Hz, where most others start rolling off around 50Hz.
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Two things:
1) John, that rig is just dead sexy. Awesome. I'd love to know how to run a stereo pair down one line, can it be done with one XLR cable? Where did you get that Y cable? Custom made?
2) I'm not surprised the OP found the mics "boomy" - that's always been my reaction as well. They are bass monsters. Even with the roll off filter, I still usually need to do some EQ to get the sound the way I like it, particularly if I record in a close room. The good thing is, you can always take some low end away. IMHO these mics shine in part because of their low end pickup. It's fixable in post if needed. For many other mics that are think on the low end, you can't add it if it's missing in the first place!
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1) John, that rig is just dead sexy. Awesome. I'd love to know how to run a stereo pair down one line, can it be done with one XLR cable? Where did you get that Y cable? Custom made?
All Sennheiser 8000 series remote cables and extension tubes are already stereo.
Sennheiser *do* make a standard Y-cable, but it's pretty horrible.
I got a wireman to make my Y-cable for me - But I had to buy several 3m extensions and he cut them up and made the Y-cable for me. I used 3 cables for this: two for the Y-cable and one for an output to XLR-5M. I had a couple of spare ends: I had and XLR-3F put on eone and an XLR-5F on the other so I could use an MKH 800 or MKH 800 TWIN as well.
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... I'd love to know how to run a stereo pair down one line, can it be done with one XLR cable? Where did you get that Y cable? Custom made? ...
Suggestion, what I have done for several years. A quad mic cable works perfectly as a stereo cable. 5-pin Xrl in each end. Short Y-cables in each end works best for me, 5-pin to two 3-pins. Not too diffucult to make, there are possibly people on the forum willing to help.
Gunnar
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... I'd love to know how to run a stereo pair down one line, can it be done with one XLR cable? Where did you get that Y cable? Custom made? ...
Suggestion, what I have done for several years. A quad mic cable works perfectly as a stereo cable. 5-pin Xrl in each end. Short Y-cables in each end works best for me, 5-pin to two 3-pins. Not too diffucult to make, there are possibly people on the forum willing to help.
Gunnar
Works well, but with increased crosstalk, of course, as it's a common screen.
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Works well, but with increased crosstalk, of course, as it's a common screen.
I have thought about that. Tried to quantify it, not quite having the math to do it right. From a rule-o-thumb point it ought to be very little. We are talking signals less than a volt and a few milliamps with a source impedance of perhaps a k and a load impedance of a few k. The magnetic or electrostatic coupling should be low in a real-world lenght of cable. Not the whole story of course as the supply return in the screen could vary and influence. Anyway, I gave up trying to calculate it as it is a stereo pair and a small crosstalk would not be any major problem. Maybe one day I will try an experiment an measure it.
Gunnar
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Works well, but with increased crosstalk, of course, as it's a common screen.
I have thought about that. Tried to quantify it, not quite having the math to do it right. From a rule-o-thumb point it ought to be very little. We are talking signals less than a volt and a few milliamps with a source impedance of perhaps a k and a load impedance of a few k. The magnetic or electrostatic coupling should be low in a real-world lenght of cable. Not the whole story of course as the supply return in the screen could vary and influence. Anyway, I gave up trying to calculate it as it is a stereo pair and a small crosstalk would not be any major problem. Maybe one day I will try an experiment an measure it.
Gunnar
Agreed, crosstalk is not so important in a stereo pair as there is lots of natural crosstalk anyway.
Though I would not use this method to pair up signals from two spot mics that are not a stereo pair.
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If in the U.S., check out this Sennheiser dealer in Kansas at 785-820-7243 (I am not connected to him, but I bought a pair of Sennheiser MKH8070 shotgun mics from him. And they are great.)
I also have a pair of Sennheiser 8020s which I LOVE. But for cards, I have DPA 4011s. I do wish I had the 8040s.
Best,
AB
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Hey guys i want to chime in. I have the 8050's. Seems like i'm the only one who uses the super cards. Anyhow i wanted to say 2 things. I got mine through sonic sense. The lady (Marks wife i forget her name) called their rep and they had a few single 50's floating around that were used a time or 2 for demostrations. These were apparently very lightly used. Anyway i got the whole package for $2100 including 3m extension cables and 2 complete mic's. If someone is looking they might want to give them a call. They said at the time (late 2009) there were a few floating around because apprently Sennheiser loaned a few of them to the Academy of Motion Picture for the Oscar's show. Not sure that would still be the case but it's worth a try. Also as far as the bass i can only speak for the 50's and say the response is incredibly accurate and most times if you get a boomy recording it is due to the sound present in the original performance. Another tid bit i'd like to mention is that i talked with Michael Grace(Grace Audio) at the Phish show in Telluride last year where he was running a descret 6 channel surround sound recording using one of his 8 channel pre/a-D units. He was using 5 Sennheiser MKH 8040's and one scheops mic. His comment to me was that the Sennheiser were so realistic and that 40 had the freq. response of a high quality omni condensor. I thought that was a perfect observation because i thought my Super cardiod's had more bass than most of the high quality cardiod's on the market. Spread the word about the Sennheisers's I'm tired of Schoeps getting all the Glory!
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His comment to me was that the Sennheiser were so realistic and that 40 had the freq. response of a high quality omni condensor.
They use a different approach than most condensors. They use EQ in the mic to modify the response. Not everyone likes that approach. I haven't tried'em.
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His comment to me was that the Sennheiser were so realistic and that 40 had the freq. response of a high quality omni condensor.
They use a different approach than most condensors. They use EQ in the mic to modify the response. Not everyone likes that approach. I haven't tried'em.
This comment is pretty misleading as it does not explain things properly and invites misinterpretation.
Firstly - the Sennheiser MKH microphones are RF condensers - most other microphones are AF condensers.
Basically, AF capacitor microphones use the capsule as a capacitor to store charge. With one fixed plate and the other free to vibrate in sympathy with the sound, the capacitance varies, and the charge moves in or out of the capsule accordingly. This is measured by the head pre-amplifier and an audio signal results. All well and good, but the capsule is inherently in a high impedance circuit (over 1GigaΩ) – it has to sit there with stored charge until the diaphragm moves and any changes in the charge are perceived as audio. In a humid atmosphere the stored charge finds it easier to escape on water molecules in the air rather than through the input of the pre-amplifier, hence noisy and reduced output, and misery all round. The high biasing voltage also attracts dust particles to the diaphragm, reducing its efficiency and linearity.
The RF system (as used in Sennheiser MKH microphones) uses the capsule (a low impedance capsule) in a completely different way: as a tuning capacitor for an RF oscillator – which inherently employs it in a low impedance circuit where a high frequency signal is being passed through the capacitor all the time. Changes in capacitance (caused by sound moving the diaphragm) alter the resonant frequency of the circuit (circa 8MHz) and so its frequency becomes proportional to the audio signal. A simple RF demodulator restores the output to a conventional audio signal. More complex and sophisticated (but still very rugged), this system is highly immune to the effects of humidity and is thus the preferred design to be used out of doors (or when moving from outside to inside on a cold day!).
Secondly - most microphone manufacturers heavily damp the capsule to get a flat frequency response. This lowers the output level and putting the effort into frequency response means that, very often, the polar-pattern can get neglected.
In the MKH series, Sennheiser only lightly damp the capsule. This means that they get a smooth and rounded response and can also put more effort into the polar-pattern. In the electronics the frequency response is tailored to be the converse of the capsule response. This gives a flat response and the microphone has a higher output so you don't have to drive you mic. pre-amp. so hard. Just saying "they use EQ" is very very misleading.
This diagram shows how most manufacturers damp the capsule:-
(http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachments/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/241789d1308852013-sennheiser-mkh40-little-dark-side-mkh-vs-standard-transducer.jpg)
This diagram shows how Sennheiser lightly damp and put the converse in the electronics:-
(http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachments/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/241790d1308852013-sennheiser-mkh40-little-dark-side-mkh-capsule-compensation-response.jpg)
Also - The MKH 8000 series (as well as the MKH 800 and MKH 20/30/40 series) all use a symmetrical capsule design. This capsule design has an acoustically-transparent front plate identical to the back plate. This means that whatever the daphragm is doing to one plate it is doing equal and opposite to the other - ensuring the acoustic impedance of the capsule remains stable and unchanging. This vastly reduces the intermodulation distortion (double-tone distortion) of the microphone. Many normal microphones have IM-distortion figures of 2 to 3% at high frequencies. The symmetrival capsule keeps this at virtually zero and it peaks at only about 0.3% at 20kHz. This is why the comment was made that they are "so realistic" and is what I have found in my own exerience. It's like listening to a person rather than a recording of a person - a bit like looking at your garden through windows that have just been cleaned, rather than ones that were cleaned a year ago.
You may also find THIS (http://www.sennheiser.com/sennheiser/globals.nsf/resources/VDT_I_english.pdf/$File/VDT_I_english.pdf) useful - it's an English translation of an article published in VDT magazine in Germany of an interview with the designers of the MKH 8000 microphone series. It makes fascinating reading, actually.
I hope this helps clear things up.
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His comment to me was that the Sennheiser were so realistic and that 40 had the freq. response of a high quality omni condensor.
They use a different approach than most condensors. They use EQ in the mic to modify the response. Not everyone likes that approach. I haven't tried'em.
This comment is pretty misleading as it does not explain things properly and invites misinterpretation.
Firstly - the Sennheiser MKH microphones are RF condensers - most other microphones are AF condensers.
Basically, AF capacitor microphones use the capsule as a capacitor to store charge. With one fixed plate and the other free to vibrate in sympathy with the sound, the capacitance varies, and the charge moves in or out of the capsule accordingly. This is measured by the head pre-amplifier and an audio signal results. All well and good, but the capsule is inherently in a high impedance circuit (over 1GigaΩ) – it has to sit there with stored charge until the diaphragm moves and any changes in the charge are perceived as audio. In a humid atmosphere the stored charge finds it easier to escape on water molecules in the air rather than through the input of the pre-amplifier, hence noisy and reduced output, and misery all round. The high biasing voltage also attracts dust particles to the diaphragm, reducing its efficiency and linearity.
The RF system (as used in Sennheiser MKH microphones) uses the capsule (a low impedance capsule) in a completely different way: as a tuning capacitor for an RF oscillator – which inherently employs it in a low impedance circuit where a high frequency signal is being passed through the capacitor all the time. Changes in capacitance (caused by sound moving the diaphragm) alter the resonant frequency of the circuit (circa 8MHz) and so its frequency becomes proportional to the audio signal. A simple RF demodulator restores the output to a conventional audio signal. More complex and sophisticated (but still very rugged), this system is highly immune to the effects of humidity and is thus the preferred design to be used out of doors (or when moving from outside to inside on a cold day!).
Secondly - most microphone manufacturers heavily damp the capsule to get a flat frequency response. This lowers the output level and putting the effort into frequency response means that, very often, the polar-pattern can get neglected.
In the MKH series, Sennheiser only lightly damp the capsule. This means that they get a smooth and rounded response and can also put more effort into the polar-pattern. In the electronics the frequency response is tailored to be the converse of the capsule response. This gives a flat response and the microphone has a higher output so you don't have to drive you mic. pre-amp. so hard. Just saying "they use EQ" is very very misleading.
This diagram shows how most manufacturers damp the capsule:-
(http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachments/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/241789d1308852013-sennheiser-mkh40-little-dark-side-mkh-vs-standard-transducer.jpg)
This diagram shows how Sennheiser lightly damp and put the converse in the electronics:-
(http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachments/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/241790d1308852013-sennheiser-mkh40-little-dark-side-mkh-capsule-compensation-response.jpg)
Also - The MKH 8000 series (as well as the MKH 800 and MKH 20/30/40 series) all use a symmetrical capsule design. This capsule design has an acoustically-transparent front plate identical to the back plate. This means that whatever the daphragm is doing to one plate it is doing equal and opposite to the other - ensuring the acoustic impedance of the capsule remains stable and unchanging. This vastly reduces the intermodulation distortion (double-tone distortion) of the microphone. Many normal microphones have IM-distortion figures of 2 to 3% at high frequencies. The symmetrival capsule keeps this at virtually zero and it peaks at only about 0.3% at 20kHz. This is why the comment was made that they are "so realistic" and is what I have found in my own exerience. It's like listening to a person rather than a recording of a person - a bit like looking at your garden through windows that have just been cleaned, rather than ones that were cleaned a year ago.
You may also find THIS (http://www.sennheiser.com/sennheiser/globals.nsf/resources/VDT_I_english.pdf/$File/VDT_I_english.pdf) useful - it's an English translation of an article published in VDT magazine in Germany of an interview with the designers of the MKH 8000 microphone series. It makes fascinating reading, actually.
I hope this helps clear things up.
John, don't you have some corporate relationship with Sennheiser?
The issue of extensive EQ in the MKH's has been discussed at length over on Gearslutz, with lots of opinions. While I like the concept behind the RF coupling, I don't like the heavy EQ approach. I'd rather have a capsule that has great mechanical response. Fixing the capsule response with EQ just isn't an approach I like. I have considered the MKH's for nature recording..
A friend bought the multi-pattern senn's (new) a few years ago, mkh 800's, I think. Very expensive mics (about $6K/pair now). He only ever used them indoors in great environments. They gave him a lot of problems and it took at least two trips to Senn, and many weeks, to sort it out. I won't condemn Senn on the basis of that, but it does give me pause; especially the service. I once believed I had issues with a recently purchased pair of mk21's - the US schoeps distributor, Redding, immediately swapped them out for new ones (in hindsight, I think it was an emerging problem with the input of my 722).
I was thinking of getting some MKH's, but then I read on gearslutz that they had their own issues with humidity (perhaps more related to the electronics) and Senn advised against using them in those conditions. I'd still like to try them, but what I read put things on hold.
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John, don't you have some corporate relationship with Sennheiser?
No - I am an independent consultant and location recording unit. I used to work for Sennheiser UK as Technical Manager, but left there very early in 2010. This is why I have knowledge that is in the public domain, but may not have easy access.
The issue of extensive EQ in the MKH's has been discussed at length over on Gearslutz, with lots of opinions. While I like the concept behind the RF coupling, I don't like the heavy EQ approach. I'd rather have a capsule that has great mechanical response. Fixing the capsule response with EQ just isn't an approach I like.
You are misunderstanding things here.
This is nothing to do with "fixing a capsule response" - and it's not "heavy EQ" in the way that most people understand it when you say "heavy EQ".
The capsule does have great mechanical response because you are not damping everything down and restricting the capsule response to make it flat. The MKH capsule is only lightly damped so it reacts freely and the opposite of the capsule response is in the electronics - I would not describe it as "heavy EQ" at all, just a frequency response designed to be the opposite of the capsule - the capsule designed to be as responsive as possible as you are not damping the hell out of it.
I have considered the MKH's for nature recording..
A friend bought the multi-pattern senn's (new) a few years ago, mkh 800's, I think. Very expensive mics (about $6K/pair now). He only ever used them indoors in great environments. They gave him a lot of problems and it took at least two trips to Senn, and many weeks, to sort it out. I won't condemn Senn on the basis of that, but it does give me pause; especially the service. I once believed I had issues with a recently purchased pair of mk21's - the US schoeps distributor, Redding, immediately swapped them out for new ones (in hindsight, I think it was an emerging problem with the input of my 722).
I can't comment on Sennheiser USA's service, I know service in the UK and Europe is good, you may have been unlucky.
I was thinking of getting some MKH's, but then I read on gearslutz that they had their own issues with humidity (perhaps more related to the electronics) and Senn advised against using them in those conditions. I'd still like to try them, but what I read put things on hold.
I have never heard of Sennheiser advising against using MKH microphones in humid situations - never. I have, however, heard some new/junior people in Sennheiser USA giving incorrect information (which I immediately informed their Technical Director so he could correct them).
All I can say is get some on loan and try for yourself and don't go too much on internet chitter chatter.
Oh - and I am on good terms with all of the major mic. manufacturers and know many designers personally and have also visited many of them. So I have no axe to grind at all - all I am doing is to explain things technically so people can make a decsion on the facts rather than on gossip.
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I just got a pair of these little babies. My first recording will be Sunday night, will report back.
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I just got a pair of these little babies. My first recording will be Sunday night, will report back.
:drool:
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I just got a pair of these little babies. My first recording will be Sunday night, will report back.
Looking forward to hearing your recording!
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I just got a pair of these little babies. My first recording will be Sunday night, will report back.
Cards or Hypers?
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I just got a pair of these little babies. My first recording will be Sunday night, will report back.
Cards or Hypers?
The 8040 is a cardioid - it's the 8050 that is a super-cardioid (Sennheiser don't do hyper-cardioids - the rear lobe gets quite large on a hyper, so Sennheiser do a tailored super-cardioid where the rejection at 90° is the same as at 180° = 10dB).
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I just got a pair of these little babies. My first recording will be Sunday night, will report back.
Cards or Hypers?
The 8040 is a cardioid - it's the 8050 that is a super-cardioid (Sennheiser don't do hyper-cardioids - the rear lobe gets quite large on a hyper, so Sennheiser do a tailored super-cardioid where the rejection at 90° is the same as at 180° = 10dB).
Ahh, thanks!
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I'm a believer. I ran the 8040s from the balcony at Bowery Ballroom, which is the best sounding room in NYC. This is my standard spot in this venue, and I've recorded probably 100 shows from this exact spot with either Neumann KM150s or DPA 4021s
The pattern was 90 degrees. Its about eye level with the upper stacks about 50 feet back. Nothing is between the mics and the stacks, although there is a balcony on either side.
I'm thoroughly impressed with the clarity, bass presence, and the crispness of the bottom end. I have never made a better recording at this venue.
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Probably update your sig now that they are staying! ;)
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I'm a believer. I ran the 8040s from the balcony at Bowery Ballroom, which is the best sounding room in NYC. This is my standard spot in this venue, and I've recorded probably 100 shows from this exact spot with either Neumann KM150s or DPA 4021s
The pattern was 90 degrees. Its about eye level with the upper stacks about 50 feet back. Nothing is between the mics and the stacks, although there is a balcony on either side.
I'm thoroughly impressed with the clarity, bass presence, and the crispness of the bottom end. I have never made a better recording at this venue.
Looking forward to hearing it!
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I'm a believer. I ran the 8040s from the balcony at Bowery Ballroom, which is the best sounding room in NYC. This is my standard spot in this venue, and I've recorded probably 100 shows from this exact spot with either Neumann KM150s or DPA 4021s
The pattern was 90 degrees. Its about eye level with the upper stacks about 50 feet back. Nothing is between the mics and the stacks, although there is a balcony on either side.
I'm thoroughly impressed with the clarity, bass presence, and the crispness of the bottom end. I have never made a better recording at this venue.
Looking forward to hearing it!
Same here. Got a sample?
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This is my first recording with these mics. Its a sbd+aud matrix, but its about 75% of the room:
http://www.nyctaper.com/?p=9131
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Thanks for the update and thanks for sharing your recording!
+T
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Dan also has another recording up that's a straight AUD in a club I record in a lot. http://www.nyctaper.com/?p=9149
I'm very impressed with what I've heard from these mics so far - esp considering a stereo pair is $2400, a little more than AKG 480/ck61, cheaper than Milabs by a little and of course at least $1k less than DPA, Neumann or Schoeps. The DPA, Neumann and Schoeps are certainly not $1k better than these, I don't think.
They definitely like the bass - which would I think be a plus for those who like the Schoeps sound, though these seem to pick up even more bass than Schoeps do - but are a bit livelier in the mids and highs than DPAs.
The small size is a pretty killer feature, too - even shorter than the Neumann 100 series. I'm guessing they're about the size of the new DPA modular series.
People around here should consider these pretty seriously, especially considering that you can have these new for what a lot of the premium brands go for used.
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I'm very impressed with what I've heard from these mics so far - esp considering a stereo pair is $2400, a little more than AKG 480/ck61, cheaper than Milabs by a little and of course at least $1k less than DPA, Neumann or Schoeps. The DPA, Neumann and Schoeps are certainly not $1k better than these, I don't think.
Wholly eff! Thank gawd for used sales esp for 481's.
Anywho, I love the 8040's. Would love to hear how the supercards sound.
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I'm very impressed with what I've heard from these mics so far - esp considering a stereo pair is $2400, a little more than AKG 480/ck61, cheaper than Milabs by a little and of course at least $1k less than DPA, Neumann or Schoeps. The DPA, Neumann and Schoeps are certainly not $1k better than these, I don't think.
Wholly eff! Thank gawd for used sales esp for 481's.
Anywho, I love the 8040's. Would love to hear how the supercards sound.
Yes I too would love to hear a sample of 8050's. I am in the market to upgrade. My senn ms14p/mke series are my current primary and I am considering either neumann 184's or 8040/8050. Nice recordings Dan and coupled with me senn experience the scale is tipping to senn. Thanks
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Talk to DatPat. He runs the 8050's. Ive been with him plenty of times when he runs those. there are some great recordings we made with these mics >:D and on the stand. But hey dont sound as good as my Telefunkens.... ;D
http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=93614&highlight=zappa+plays
http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=93615
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Although it appears that not a single one of us here on TS owns a pair of the Milab VM-44 supercards I'd love to hear a comparison of those with the Sennheiser 8050's.
It probably won't be in the near future, but my next pair of new mics will probably be Senn 8040's, 8050's or a pair of Milab VM-44 supercards...
;)
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i never get tired of saying great things about the MKH8040 mics. i just love mine and am about to pull the trigger on the 8050's. was going to get the MKH800 pair, but they are more of a "want" than a "need" right now. i'm really excited about adding the 8050s to the tool box!
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Talk to DatPat. He runs the 8050's. Ive been with him plenty of times when he runs those. there are some great recordings we made with these mics >:D and on the stand. But hey dont sound as good as my Telefunkens.... ;D
http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=93614&highlight=zappa+plays
http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=93615
got a specific link for stand/open recordings? I saw the RtF and Zappa torrents but those were both stealth.
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I'm very impressed with what I've heard from these mics so far - esp considering a stereo pair is $2400, a little more than AKG 480/ck61, cheaper than Milabs by a little and of course at least $1k less than DPA, Neumann or Schoeps. The DPA, Neumann and Schoeps are certainly not $1k better than these, I don't think.
Wholly eff! Thank gawd for used sales esp for 481's.
Anywho, I love the 8040's. Would love to hear how the supercards sound.
Yes I too would love to hear a sample of 8050's. I am in the market to upgrade. My senn ms14p/mke series are my current primary and I am considering either neumann 184's or 8040/8050. Nice recordings Dan and coupled with me senn experience the scale is tipping to senn. Thanks
DEF go w/ the 8050's :)
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i never get tired of saying great things about the MKH8040 mics. i just love mine and am about to pull the trigger on the 8050's. was going to get the MKH800 pair, but they are more of a "want" than a "need" right now. i'm really excited about adding the 8050s to the tool box!
I have a question about this. If you went for those 8050's do you have to buy
the senn8000 "body" part or just the caps? Doesn't look as if they are sold separate
unless I am just not using the right search criteria?
-todd
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i never get tired of saying great things about the MKH8040 mics. i just love mine and am about to pull the trigger on the 8050's. was going to get the MKH800 pair, but they are more of a "want" than a "need" right now. i'm really excited about adding the 8050s to the tool box!
I have a question about this. If you went for those 8050's do you have to buy
the senn8000 "body" part or just the caps? Doesn't look as if they are sold separate
unless I am just not using the right search criteria?
-todd
i think you're correct... to my knowledge Sennheiser does not sell the microphone head by itself. the "body", however, which is really nothing more than an XLR module can be purchased by itself for $329.95 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/532821-REG/Sennheiser_MZX8000_MZX_8000_XLR_Module.html).
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i never get tired of saying great things about the MKH8040 mics. i just love mine and am about to pull the trigger on the 8050's. was going to get the MKH800 pair, but they are more of a "want" than a "need" right now. i'm really excited about adding the 8050s to the tool box!
I have a question about this. If you went for those 8050's do you have to buy
the senn8000 "body" part or just the caps? Doesn't look as if they are sold separate
unless I am just not using the right search criteria?
-todd
i think you're correct... to my knowledge Sennheiser does not sell the microphone head by itself. the "body", however, which is really nothing more than an XLR module can be purchased by itself for $329.95 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/532821-REG/Sennheiser_MZX8000_MZX_8000_XLR_Module.html).
Nice.
Thanks for the info.
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i never get tired of saying great things about the MKH8040 mics. i just love mine and am about to pull the trigger on the 8050's. was going to get the MKH800 pair, but they are more of a "want" than a "need" right now. i'm really excited about adding the 8050s to the tool box!
I have a question about this. If you went for those 8050's do you have to buy
the senn8000 "body" part or just the caps? Doesn't look as if they are sold separate
unless I am just not using the right search criteria?
-todd
If you want the head by itself - no problem.
The head is the MKHC 8050 (art. no. 502096) - or MKHC 8040 (art. no. 50205). It's in the UK price list.
But the head is the complete microphone - the "body" is just an XLR adaptor with no electronics inside at all.
If you want a tiny mic. get the head and the extension cable and cut off the far end and put on an XLR-3M and off you go. ;D
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i think you're correct... to my knowledge Sennheiser does not sell the microphone head by itself.
Sorry - this is wrong - the head *is* available on its own - the MKHC 8050 - see my post above.
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Thanks John! That's an awfully expensive xlr "adapter".
I was thinking that you would be able to buy the cap separate although,
for some mics like the Beyer CK930 they don't seem to sell the cap separate.
Figured I'd ask.
Thanks again.
-todd.
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The small size is a pretty killer feature, too - even shorter than the Neumann 100 series. I'm guessing they're about the size of the new DPA modular series.
Pretty close. They're about 10mm (0.4") longer...
But the head is the complete microphone - the "body" is just an XLR adaptor with no electronics inside at all.
If you want a tiny mic. get the head and the extension cable and cut off the far end and put on an XLR-3M and off you go. ;D
Is it possible to eliminate the body (XLR module) entirely?
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But the head is the complete microphone - the "body" is just an XLR adaptor with no electronics inside at all.
If you want a tiny mic. get the head and the extension cable and cut off the far end and put on an XLR-3M and off you go. ;D
Is it possible to eliminate the body (XLR module) entirely?
Yes, that's what I said above.
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i think you're correct... to my knowledge Sennheiser does not sell the microphone head by itself.
Sorry - this is wrong - the head *is* available on its own - the MKHC 8050 - see my post above.
John: thanks for the correction!
...today i pulled the trigger on a pair of MKH8050 mics and hope to receive them by end of the month. i bought the normal configuration (head and XLR adapter) rather than head only.
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i think you're correct... to my knowledge Sennheiser does not sell the microphone head by itself.
Sorry - this is wrong - the head *is* available on its own - the MKHC 8050 - see my post above.
John: thanks for the correction!
...today i pulled the trigger on a pair of MKH8050 mics and hope to receive them by end of the month. i bought the normal configuration (head and XLR adapter) rather than head only.
NB: The MKH 8050 are not normally available as matched pairs as they are normally used as spot mics.
HOWEVER - Sennheiser can factory-match a pair on request and Germany do not charge extra for this.
Just make sure you make it clear to Sennheiser when you order, as they will have to be specially ordered from Germany.
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But the head is the complete microphone - the "body" is just an XLR adaptor with no electronics inside at all.
If you want a tiny mic. get the head and the extension cable and cut off the far end and put on an XLR-3M and off you go. ;D
Is it possible to eliminate the body (XLR module) entirely?
Yes, that's what I said above.
Thanks. When I looked at the picture of one of these cables (on the B&H site), it appeared like there were 4 pins on the side that connects to the XLR module, so I didn't realize it was so simple to chop it and add an XLR. I kind of thought you were referring to a remote capsule configuration...
Any idea how long the connector (or connector and strain relief) are on the capsule side of those cables?
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But the head is the complete microphone - the "body" is just an XLR adaptor with no electronics inside at all.
If you want a tiny mic. get the head and the extension cable and cut off the far end and put on an XLR-3M and off you go. ;D
Is it possible to eliminate the body (XLR module) entirely?
Yes, that's what I said above.
Thanks. When I looked at the picture of one of these cables (on the B&H site), it appeared like there were 4 pins on the side that connects to the XLR module, so I didn't realize it was so simple to chop it and add an XLR. I kind of thought you were referring to a remote capsule configuration...
Any idea how long the connector (or connector and strain relief) are on the capsule side of those cables?
There are 4 pins because the cable is stereo enabled (ie: you can run two heads along it via a Y-cable).
The length of the connector and strain relief is about half the length of the XLR I think.
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Although it appears that not a single one of us here on TS owns a pair of the Milab VM-44 supercards I'd love to hear a comparison of those with the Sennheiser 8050's.
Me, too. THAT would be a great comp. In fact, I'd like to hear any recordings with the VM-44 supercards.
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Anyone have knowledge if the MZL 80** cable will fit securely in NOLA bars?