Taperssection.com
Gear / Technical Help => Microphones & Setup => Topic started by: hawghunter on February 02, 2007, 02:13:39 PM
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I Just pick up a pair of these mics. Went to try them out had some clipping issues or brickwalling. My rig is a Micro trak 24/96, SP-SPSB-10 battery box w/ bass roll off option (not turned on), and going on to the MT though the 1/4" line inputs. Also had the levels turned all the way down, and set to 'M' on the setings. Am I doing something wrong? Should I have set the MT on the 'L' setting? Any help would be great. Also I didn't have this with other mics, so I'm confussed.
Thanks
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Here we go again...well for starters, the AT u853s with just battery power can only reproduce at most, 110 db's before they will start to distort.
Was this a loud show? Can you provide any samples?
Also, if you don't mind me asking, what other mics have you used in the past?
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the show was loud, (small bar) i have been to louder. can't get a sample right know, not at that computer. When I looked at the wav spectrum in audition it was maxed in 50% of the wav. I used the sp-cmc-19's. So are you saying I need different or more power?
Thanks
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the show was loud, (small bar) i have been to louder. can't get a sample right know, not at that computer. When I looked at the wav spectrum in audition it was maxed in 50% of the wav. I used the sp-cmc-19's. So are you saying I need different or more power?
Thanks
It's a well known problem with at mics (at least the 853, 943 lines). Either get a three wire battery box or get those mics modded to xlr for phantom power.
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the show was loud, (small bar) i have been to louder. can't get a sample right know, not at that computer. When I looked at the wav spectrum in audition it was maxed in 50% of the wav. I used the sp-cmc-19's. So are you saying I need different or more power?
Thanks
Yes, as gloco said, it's a common problem with the AT mics. One way out of it is three wire powering, and the other is phantom powering.
If you were using the battery module with your old SP-CMC-19s, then they would have been able to reproduce 120 dbs without distortion.
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Any suggestion on a three wire box.
Thanks
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goddammit!!!
i just bought a pair of those this past week, the guy at SP assured me that unless it was an extemely loud show that my sp-8 would supply sufficient power,thus i didnt order the xlr jacks on them nor did i order the power modules.fuck.
so whats the deal with the 3 wire BB??? is it a modification to a standard or a different unit all together??
this really pisses me off. i have 3 shows coming up in the next 2 weeks and i was hoping to break these mics in.
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goddammit!!!
i just bought a pair of those this past week, the guy at SP assured me that unless it was an extemely loud show that my sp-8 would supply sufficient power,thus i didnt order the xlr jacks on them nor did i order the power modules.fuck.
so whats the deal with the 3 wire BB??? is it a modification to a standard or a different unit all together??
this really pisses me off. i have 3 shows coming up in the next 2 weeks and i was hoping to break these mics in.
nameloc01, have your old AT829's distorted at high volumes when you taped "Tool" (very loud, right?) ?
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Any suggestion on a three wire box.
Thanks
Try Chris Church on here. He's been a big help to me with the same issues.
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goddammit!!!
i just bought a pair of those this past week, the guy at SP assured me that unless it was an extemely loud show that my sp-8 would supply sufficient power,thus i didnt order the xlr jacks on them nor did i order the power modules.fuck.
so whats the deal with the 3 wire BB??? is it a modification to a standard or a different unit all together??
this really pisses me off. i have 3 shows coming up in the next 2 weeks and i was hoping to break these mics in.
You need a three wire battery box, or modify your mics (insert 4.7k resistors at the connector).
Ask Chris Church to help you out.
The mics are definitely worth the money once you get them powered correctly!
What I don't understand is why SoundPros have not caught on and offered three wire battery boxes. They are missing a *huge* market here.
Richard
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What I don't understand is why SoundPros have not caught on and offered three wire battery boxes. They are missing a *huge* market here.
They'll just tell you need phantom power. ::)
But I *really* do agree...
I'm not at all trying to bad-mouth Sound Professionals, but you know I asked Chris (Sound Pro Chris) a bunch of questions and got *completely* different answers from what other technical minded people on here told me.
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goddammit!!!
i just bought a pair of those this past week, the guy at SP assured me that unless it was an extemely loud show that my sp-8 would supply sufficient power,thus i didnt order the xlr jacks on them nor did i order the power modules.fuck.
so whats the deal with the 3 wire BB??? is it a modification to a standard or a different unit all together??
this really pisses me off. i have 3 shows coming up in the next 2 weeks and i was hoping to break these mics in.
they dont push 3 wires because they push the U853 dual power modules @ 199.00 each,(2) one for each mic/cable..so 400.00 for the set, or they also sell a phantomm power converter module that steps down a 48vt to a usable source for their mics,these are about 150.00 plus another 200.00 for the dencke battery powered portable phantom unit.
recording,i have used the 829's on many occasions,mostly at the HOB(cleveland) where i usually set up base in the balcony right in front of the sound system.i never had a problem there. i recorded TOOL at the fox theater last may, came out decent, no clipping at all.
did TOOL at columbus 9/21 some consistant clipping at the higher points in the show,this was at the top concourse at the back of the arena.
TOOL the next night at auburn hills, on the floor 14 th row, some very minor,only a few times,there was some clippage.
so it has nt been real consistant, it may have even been the levels, i dunno.
but those are the only two shows where its happened at all.
i am rather bummed, i need to get this fixed and fixed right now.i wish the dude at SP was more accurate with his statements, usually they have a+ service and advise.
so, is the opinion to do a 3 wire or phantom>converter????????
son-of-a-bitch.
You need a three wire battery box, or modify your mics (insert 4.7k resistors at the connector).
Ask Chris Church to help you out.
The mics are definitely worth the money once you get them powered correctly!
What I don't understand is why SoundPros have not caught on and offered three wire battery boxes. They are missing a *huge* market here.
Richard
-
What I don't understand is why SoundPros have not caught on and offered three wire battery boxes. They are missing a *huge* market here.
They'll just tell you need phantom power. ::)
But I *really* do agree...
I'm not at all trying to bad-mouth Sound Professionals, but you know I asked Chris (Sound Pro Chris) a bunch of questions and got *completely* different answers from what other technical minded people on here told me.
Here is the problem with the A-T mics as I see it.. Number 1 the distortion figures they are using are not accurate.. These mics do distort badly I have measured them at 114db at 1k these mics have a distortion that is almost 15% that is VERY HIGH! I measure my own mic capsules from the factory they are 10% typical but after my mod the AT mics measure 0.5% and my mics measure 0.5%. So getting the mod done to these mics saves them from distortion but you do sacrifice some level that's why after doing the mod you should invest in a preamp.. To run your mics unless your always taping loud shows then you don't need a preamp in most cases..
Chris Church
I find people that are using the MT do need a preamp after my mod because the noise floor in the MT preamp is bad to begin with. And when you need the extra gain from the MT it brings up the noise floor too much, that being said the preamp in the Edirol R-09 is much better and more often then not for most loud shows not needed..
-
What I don't understand is why SoundPros have not caught on and offered three wire battery boxes. They are missing a *huge* market here.
They'll just tell you need phantom power. ::)
But I *really* do agree...
I'm not at all trying to bad-mouth Sound Professionals, but you know I asked Chris (Sound Pro Chris) a bunch of questions and got *completely* different answers from what other technical minded people on here told me.
Here is the problem with the A-T mics as I see it.. Number 1 the distortion figures they are using are not accurate.. These mics do distort badly I have measured them at 114db at 1k these mics have a distortion that is almost 15% that is VERY HIGH! I measure my own mic capsules from the factory they are 10% typical but after my mod the AT mics measure 0.5% and my mics measure 0.5%. So getting the mod done to these mics saves them from distortion but you do sacrifice some level that's why after doing the mod you should invest in a preamp.. To run your mics unless your always taping loud shows then you don't need a preamp in most cases..
Chris Church
I find people that are using the MT do need a preamp after my mod because the noise floor in the MT preamp is bad to begin with. And when you need the extra gain from the MT it brings up the noise floor too much, that being said the preamp in the Edirol R-09 is much better and more often then not for most loud shows not needed..
Hey Chris. I think the problem is AT mics were *never* designed to run as "two-wire" at all. If you look at any of the numerous AT powering options, they use a three-wire circuit. Even the power modules that are battery/phantom split the battery voltage so that half is across the FET and half across the (source) load resistor.
As far as "not enough gain" that is subjective. Sure, if you're trying to run into a NJB3 or Iriver, you've got a problem. But several line inputs, like Edirol R01/R09, and Minidisc have enough gain to bring this up nicely for any amplified music. I think they might add 10-15dB or so but that is quite enough. That is why I've been using my MD so much even though I've got a lot (!) of other gear.
Richard
-
What I don't understand is why SoundPros have not caught on and offered three wire battery boxes. They are missing a *huge* market here.
They'll just tell you need phantom power. ::)
But I *really* do agree...
I'm not at all trying to bad-mouth Sound Professionals, but you know I asked Chris (Sound Pro Chris) a bunch of questions and got *completely* different answers from what other technical minded people on here told me.
Here is the problem with the A-T mics as I see it.. Number 1 the distortion figures they are using are not accurate.. These mics do distort badly I have measured them at 114db at 1k these mics have a distortion that is almost 15% that is VERY HIGH! I measure my own mic capsules from the factory they are 10% typical but after my mod the AT mics measure 0.5% and my mics measure 0.5%. So getting the mod done to these mics saves them from distortion but you do sacrifice some level that's why after doing the mod you should invest in a preamp.. To run your mics unless your always taping loud shows then you don't need a preamp in most cases..
Chris Church
I find people that are using the MT do need a preamp after my mod because the noise floor in the MT preamp is bad to begin with. And when you need the extra gain from the MT it brings up the noise floor too much, that being said the preamp in the Edirol R-09 is much better and more often then not for most loud shows not needed..
Hey Chris. I think the problem is AT mics were *never* designed to run as "two-wire" at all. If you look at any of the numerous AT powering options, they use a three-wire circuit. Even the power modules that are battery/phantom split the battery voltage so that half is across the FET and half across the (source) load resistor.
As far as "not enough gain" that is subjective. Sure, if you're trying to run into a NJB3 or Iriver, you've got a problem. But several line inputs, like Edirol R01/R09, and Minidisc have enough gain to bring this up nicely for any amplified music. I think they might add 10-15dB or so but that is quite enough. That is why I've been using my MD so much even though I've got a lot (!) of other gear.
Richard
Richard they are not really three wire capsule all they are is two wire capsules that have a separate ground wire to the case. The red wire is the signal the Yellow is the negative if you remove the ground wire the mic will still work but will be noisy in a true three wire capsule it will not work..
This is the same as the other capsule I use for my mics. I could be wrong but that's what I have discovered.
-
What I don't understand is why SoundPros have not caught on and offered three wire battery boxes. They are missing a *huge* market here.
They'll just tell you need phantom power. ::)
But I *really* do agree...
I'm not at all trying to bad-mouth Sound Professionals, but you know I asked Chris (Sound Pro Chris) a bunch of questions and got *completely* different answers from what other technical minded people on here told me.
Here is the problem with the A-T mics as I see it.. Number 1 the distortion figures they are using are not accurate.. These mics do distort badly I have measured them at 114db at 1k these mics have a distortion that is almost 15% that is VERY HIGH! I measure my own mic capsules from the factory they are 10% typical but after my mod the AT mics measure 0.5% and my mics measure 0.5%. So getting the mod done to these mics saves them from distortion but you do sacrifice some level that's why after doing the mod you should invest in a preamp.. To run your mics unless your always taping loud shows then you don't need a preamp in most cases..
Chris Church
I find people that are using the MT do need a preamp after my mod because the noise floor in the MT preamp is bad to begin with. And when you need the extra gain from the MT it brings up the noise floor too much, that being said the preamp in the Edirol R-09 is much better and more often then not for most loud shows not needed..
Hey Chris. I think the problem is AT mics were *never* designed to run as "two-wire" at all. If you look at any of the numerous AT powering options, they use a three-wire circuit. Even the power modules that are battery/phantom split the battery voltage so that half is across the FET and half across the (source) load resistor.
As far as "not enough gain" that is subjective. Sure, if you're trying to run into a NJB3 or Iriver, you've got a problem. But several line inputs, like Edirol R01/R09, and Minidisc have enough gain to bring this up nicely for any amplified music. I think they might add 10-15dB or so but that is quite enough. That is why I've been using my MD so much even though I've got a lot (!) of other gear.
Richard
Richard they are not really three wire capsule all they are is two wire capsules that have a separate ground wire to the case. The red wire is the signal the Yellow is the negative if you remove the ground wire the mic will still work but will be noisy in a true three wire capsule it will not work..
This is the same as the other capsule I use for my mics. I could be wrong but that's what I have discovered.
I gotta disagree with you there!
AT and yours are both three wire. Red is the drain of the FET, Yellow is the source of the FET and shield is ground (of the capsule). The other end of the capsule goes to the gate of the FET. For two wire you short yellow and ground (at the 3.5mm stereo plug, usually).
Your mics have three wires too, +, audio, and ground. Some variants have a source resistor (eg., 2.2k) soldered between audio and ground.
Richard
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What I don't understand is why SoundPros have not caught on and offered three wire battery boxes. They are missing a *huge* market here.
They'll just tell you need phantom power. ::)
But I *really* do agree...
I'm not at all trying to bad-mouth Sound Professionals, but you know I asked Chris (Sound Pro Chris) a bunch of questions and got *completely* different answers from what other technical minded people on here told me.
Here is the problem with the A-T mics as I see it.. Number 1 the distortion figures they are using are not accurate.. These mics do distort badly I have measured them at 114db at 1k these mics have a distortion that is almost 15% that is VERY HIGH! I measure my own mic capsules from the factory they are 10% typical but after my mod the AT mics measure 0.5% and my mics measure 0.5%. So getting the mod done to these mics saves them from distortion but you do sacrifice some level that's why after doing the mod you should invest in a preamp.. To run your mics unless your always taping loud shows then you don't need a preamp in most cases..
Chris Church
I find people that are using the MT do need a preamp after my mod because the noise floor in the MT preamp is bad to begin with. And when you need the extra gain from the MT it brings up the noise floor too much, that being said the preamp in the Edirol R-09 is much better and more often then not for most loud shows not needed..
Hey Chris. I think the problem is AT mics were *never* designed to run as "two-wire" at all. If you look at any of the numerous AT powering options, they use a three-wire circuit. Even the power modules that are battery/phantom split the battery voltage so that half is across the FET and half across the (source) load resistor.
As far as "not enough gain" that is subjective. Sure, if you're trying to run into a NJB3 or Iriver, you've got a problem. But several line inputs, like Edirol R01/R09, and Minidisc have enough gain to bring this up nicely for any amplified music. I think they might add 10-15dB or so but that is quite enough. That is why I've been using my MD so much even though I've got a lot (!) of other gear.
Richard
Richard they are not really three wire capsule all they are is two wire capsules that have a separate ground wire to the case. The red wire is the signal the Yellow is the negative if you remove the ground wire the mic will still work but will be noisy in a true three wire capsule it will not work..
This is the same as the other capsule I use for my mics. I could be wrong but that's what I have discovered.
I gotta disagree with you there!
AT and yours are both three wire. Red is the drain of the FET, Yellow is the source of the FET and shield is ground (of the capsule). The other end of the capsule goes to the gate of the FET. For two wire you short yellow and ground (at the 3.5mm stereo plug, usually).
Your mics have three wires too, +, audio, and ground. Some variants have a source resistor (eg., 2.2k) soldered between audio and ground.
Richard
Ok I stand corrected I have never opened up an AT mic.
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What I don't understand is why SoundPros have not caught on and offered three wire battery boxes. They are missing a *huge* market here.
They'll just tell you need phantom power. ::)
But I *really* do agree...
I'm not at all trying to bad-mouth Sound Professionals, but you know I asked Chris (Sound Pro Chris) a bunch of questions and got *completely* different answers from what other technical minded people on here told me.
Here is the problem with the A-T mics as I see it.. Number 1 the distortion figures they are using are not accurate.. These mics do distort badly I have measured them at 114db at 1k these mics have a distortion that is almost 15% that is VERY HIGH! I measure my own mic capsules from the factory they are 10% typical but after my mod the AT mics measure 0.5% and my mics measure 0.5%. So getting the mod done to these mics saves them from distortion but you do sacrifice some level that's why after doing the mod you should invest in a preamp.. To run your mics unless your always taping loud shows then you don't need a preamp in most cases..
Chris Church
I find people that are using the MT do need a preamp after my mod because the noise floor in the MT preamp is bad to begin with. And when you need the extra gain from the MT it brings up the noise floor too much, that being said the preamp in the Edirol R-09 is much better and more often then not for most loud shows not needed..
Hey Chris. I think the problem is AT mics were *never* designed to run as "two-wire" at all. If you look at any of the numerous AT powering options, they use a three-wire circuit. Even the power modules that are battery/phantom split the battery voltage so that half is across the FET and half across the (source) load resistor.
As far as "not enough gain" that is subjective. Sure, if you're trying to run into a NJB3 or Iriver, you've got a problem. But several line inputs, like Edirol R01/R09, and Minidisc have enough gain to bring this up nicely for any amplified music. I think they might add 10-15dB or so but that is quite enough. That is why I've been using my MD so much even though I've got a lot (!) of other gear.
Richard
Richard they are not really three wire capsule all they are is two wire capsules that have a separate ground wire to the case. The red wire is the signal the Yellow is the negative if you remove the ground wire the mic will still work but will be noisy in a true three wire capsule it will not work..
This is the same as the other capsule I use for my mics. I could be wrong but that's what I have discovered.
I gotta disagree with you there!
AT and yours are both three wire. Red is the drain of the FET, Yellow is the source of the FET and shield is ground (of the capsule). The other end of the capsule goes to the gate of the FET. For two wire you short yellow and ground (at the 3.5mm stereo plug, usually).
Your mics have three wires too, +, audio, and ground. Some variants have a source resistor (eg., 2.2k) soldered between audio and ground.
Richard
Ok I stand corrected I have never opened up an AT mic.
BTW, there may be a small # of mics (Sennheiser MKE2, some varieties) that have the FET source and ground shorted *at the mic end*. These cannot be hacked for three-wire use. Sennheiser MKE-2-4 are shorted this way, MKE-2-5 are not. I bought the latter after a long search on Ebay.
Richard
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i am soo pissed off right now i cant even explain it......
so what is a better option in your guys' opinions??
the mic mod?
or the 3 wire BB?
either way .. where to get it/them done??
Mr.Church.. is this something you can do reasonable quick??
thanks
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yeah, i feel your pain. i think chris can help us out.
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posted this in another thread...
I run (http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-CMC-4U) w/ the stereo 1/8" male.
I then use a stereo [1/8" female to 1/8" male] 20' footer i got from radioshack to go down the stand.
Take the male end of that cable into these phantom adapters (http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-XLRM-MINI-2) XLR Male into the UA-5 that gives 48v phantom to the AT's on top of the stand.
works like a charm and sounds great! about to send the UA-5 off for the Bman tinkering.
HAVE NOT yet tried to run these on the SP batt box... might save that for a shitty local band.
-j
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"What I don't understand is why SoundPros have not caught on and offered three wire battery boxes. They are missing a *huge* market here."
They Do, I had one made probably 7 years ago atleast by Soundpro, probably one of their first. Each mic is terminated with a 1/8" miniTRS, they plug into a preamp/batt box that soundpro designed for this purpose. It has a single stereo control to adjust volume and a toggle switch to turn it on and off. He was selling them for a while at 199.00 but I guess he stopped because of a lack of interest. I have the 853's and had this problem, once soundpro built the box and reterminated my mics they'd worked great. 11 row at The Who at Hershey PA in front of 11 foot high subs convinved me of that.
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What I don't understand is why SoundPros have not caught on and offered three wire battery boxes. They are missing a *huge* market here.
They'll just tell you need phantom power. ::)
But I *really* do agree...
I'm not at all trying to bad-mouth Sound Professionals, but you know I asked Chris (Sound Pro Chris) a bunch of questions and got *completely* different answers from what other technical minded people on here told me.
Here is the problem with the A-T mics as I see it.. Number 1 the distortion figures they are using are not accurate.. These mics do distort badly I have measured them at 114db at 1k these mics have a distortion that is almost 15% that is VERY HIGH! I measure my own mic capsules from the factory they are 10% typical but after my mod the AT mics measure 0.5% and my mics measure 0.5%. So getting the mod done to these mics saves them from distortion but you do sacrifice some level that's why after doing the mod you should invest in a preamp.. To run your mics unless your always taping loud shows then you don't need a preamp in most cases..
Chris Church
I find people that are using the MT do need a preamp after my mod because the noise floor in the MT preamp is bad to begin with. And when you need the extra gain from the MT it brings up the noise floor too much, that being said the preamp in the Edirol R-09 is much better and more often then not for most loud shows not needed..
Hey Chris. I think the problem is AT mics were *never* designed to run as "two-wire" at all. If you look at any of the numerous AT powering options, they use a three-wire circuit. Even the power modules that are battery/phantom split the battery voltage so that half is across the FET and half across the (source) load resistor.
As far as "not enough gain" that is subjective. Sure, if you're trying to run into a NJB3 or Iriver, you've got a problem. But several line inputs, like Edirol R01/R09, and Minidisc have enough gain to bring this up nicely for any amplified music. I think they might add 10-15dB or so but that is quite enough. That is why I've been using my MD so much even though I've got a lot (!) of other gear.
Richard
Richard they are not really three wire capsule all they are is two wire capsules that have a separate ground wire to the case. The red wire is the signal the Yellow is the negative if you remove the ground wire the mic will still work but will be noisy in a true three wire capsule it will not work..
This is the same as the other capsule I use for my mics. I could be wrong but that's what I have discovered.
I gotta disagree with you there!
AT and yours are both three wire. Red is the drain of the FET, Yellow is the source of the FET and shield is ground (of the capsule). The other end of the capsule goes to the gate of the FET. For two wire you short yellow and ground (at the 3.5mm stereo plug, usually).
Your mics have three wires too, +, audio, and ground. Some variants have a source resistor (eg., 2.2k) soldered between audio and ground.
Richard
Ok I stand corrected I have never opened up an AT mic.
BTW, there may be a small # of mics (Sennheiser MKE2, some varieties) that have the FET source and ground shorted *at the mic end*. These cannot be hacked for three-wire use. Sennheiser MKE-2-4 are shorted this way, MKE-2-5 are not. I bought the latter after a long search on Ebay.
Richard
Hi Richard these are my tests for distortion/output loss my 2 wire mod vrs Normal 3 wire
The red spike indicates distortion of the typical 3 wire battery box.. It is 0.5% at -25db with a 114db extremely low distortion acoustic signal directly coupled to the capsule... The blue spike is the distortion of my 2 wire mod via the 4.7k resistor it shows a loss of 5db over 3 wire..... But the distortion is exactly the same 0.5% here is a picture of both graphs super imposed.
Ps... Notice the third harmonic is gone with my 4.7 k mod strange I don't know why its not there anymore maybe because its 5 db down... I thought you might be interested in the test results.
The AT 853 performs exactly the same way after the mod.. as my capsule does distortion wise.. The thing that concerns me is there are different distortion rates for different capsules of the same make and model so when I match my capsules I use Frequency response distortion % and output in db at 1k as a means of making sure they are the same... I have measured a pair of AT capsules I have here that are in for my modification the difference in distortion between the two supposedly "matched capsules" was 3% distortion! not very matched IMO.. So one capsule was 0.5% distortion the other capsule was 3.5% distortion this would lead me to believe that the capsules that AT makes are being matched for level not for distortion this means you could get one capsule that will distort much earlier then the other in a stereo pair :( not good news.
Anyway tell me what you think..
Chris Church
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i am soo pissed off right now i cant even explain it......
so what is a better option in your guys' opinions??
the mic mod?
or the 3 wire BB?
either way .. where to get it/them done??
Mr.Church.. is this something you can do reasonable quick??
thanks
Turn around time is about 2 weeks for me at this point in time... I can do the mod for you its pretty simple. How are your mics terminated now?
-
What I don't understand is why SoundPros have not caught on and offered three wire battery boxes. They are missing a *huge* market here.
They'll just tell you need phantom power. ::)
But I *really* do agree...
I'm not at all trying to bad-mouth Sound Professionals, but you know I asked Chris (Sound Pro Chris) a bunch of questions and got *completely* different answers from what other technical minded people on here told me.
Here is the problem with the A-T mics as I see it.. Number 1 the distortion figures they are using are not accurate.. These mics do distort badly I have measured them at 114db at 1k these mics have a distortion that is almost 15% that is VERY HIGH! I measure my own mic capsules from the factory they are 10% typical but after my mod the AT mics measure 0.5% and my mics measure 0.5%. So getting the mod done to these mics saves them from distortion but you do sacrifice some level that's why after doing the mod you should invest in a preamp.. To run your mics unless your always taping loud shows then you don't need a preamp in most cases..
Chris Church
I find people that are using the MT do need a preamp after my mod because the noise floor in the MT preamp is bad to begin with. And when you need the extra gain from the MT it brings up the noise floor too much, that being said the preamp in the Edirol R-09 is much better and more often then not for most loud shows not needed..
Hey Chris. I think the problem is AT mics were *never* designed to run as "two-wire" at all. If you look at any of the numerous AT powering options, they use a three-wire circuit. Even the power modules that are battery/phantom split the battery voltage so that half is across the FET and half across the (source) load resistor.
As far as "not enough gain" that is subjective. Sure, if you're trying to run into a NJB3 or Iriver, you've got a problem. But several line inputs, like Edirol R01/R09, and Minidisc have enough gain to bring this up nicely for any amplified music. I think they might add 10-15dB or so but that is quite enough. That is why I've been using my MD so much even though I've got a lot (!) of other gear.
Richard
Richard they are not really three wire capsule all they are is two wire capsules that have a separate ground wire to the case. The red wire is the signal the Yellow is the negative if you remove the ground wire the mic will still work but will be noisy in a true three wire capsule it will not work..
This is the same as the other capsule I use for my mics. I could be wrong but that's what I have discovered.
I gotta disagree with you there!
AT and yours are both three wire. Red is the drain of the FET, Yellow is the source of the FET and shield is ground (of the capsule). The other end of the capsule goes to the gate of the FET. For two wire you short yellow and ground (at the 3.5mm stereo plug, usually).
Your mics have three wires too, +, audio, and ground. Some variants have a source resistor (eg., 2.2k) soldered between audio and ground.
Richard
Ok I stand corrected I have never opened up an AT mic.
BTW, there may be a small # of mics (Sennheiser MKE2, some varieties) that have the FET source and ground shorted *at the mic end*. These cannot be hacked for three-wire use. Sennheiser MKE-2-4 are shorted this way, MKE-2-5 are not. I bought the latter after a long search on Ebay.
Richard
Hi Richard these are my tests for distortion/output loss my 2 wire mod vrs Normal 3 wire
The red spike indicates distortion of the typical 3 wire battery box.. It is 0.5% at -25db with a 114db extremely low distortion acoustic signal directly coupled to the capsule... The blue spike is the distortion of my 2 wire mod via the 4.7k resistor it shows a loss of 5db over 3 wire..... But the distortion is exactly the same 0.5% here is a picture of both graphs super imposed.
Ps... Notice the third harmonic is gone with my 4.7 k mod strange I don't know why its not there anymore maybe because its 5 db down... I thought you might be interested in the test results.
The AT 853 performs exactly the same way after the mod.. as my capsule does distortion wise.. The thing that concerns me is there are different distortion rates for different capsules of the same make and model so when I match my capsules I use Frequency response distortion % and output in db at 1k as a means of making sure they are the same... I have measured a pair of AT capsules I have here that are in for my modification the difference in distortion between the two supposedly "matched capsules" was 3% distortion! not very matched IMO.. So one capsule was 0.5% distortion the other capsule was 3.5% distortion this would lead me to believe that the capsules that AT makes are being matched for level not for distortion this means you could get one capsule that will distort much earlier then the other in a stereo pair :( not good news.
Anyway tell me what you think..
Chris Church
Thanks. Very nice analysis. I would be interested in seeing a two-wire (unmodded) setup here too. That would be a good advertisement for your gear. Or at least how *not* to power microphones.
Richard
-
If this a stupid question, then apologizies in advance, but why does the distortion attack 1k the most?
-
If this a stupid question, then apologizies in advance, but why does the distortion attack 1k the most?
Distortion does not "attack" any one frequency. 1k was just chosen for the test. What you do is put a 1k tone in (eg., through a loudspeaker) and measure the mic output (through a preamp/ADC step and into the computer). If all was working you would see only 1k on the output. But instead you often see *multiples* of the input (2k, 3k, etc) which are called "harmonics". Hence the term "total harmonic distortion". These should not be there, but are caused by nonlinearities in the response of the mic (well, the whole signal chain, actually). You measure the distortion by comparing the desired peak (1k) to undesired ones. Here you have (in red, I think) the main peak at (approx) -28dB and the 2k peak at -73dB. The difference is approx 45dB. So the distortion is 45dB below the signal. 20dB is a factor of ten (in power) so you've got, less than 1% distortion. 1% would be exactly 40dB down.
Bye...
Richard
-
If this a stupid question, then apologizies in advance, but why does the distortion attack 1k the most?
Distortion does not "attack" any one frequency. 1k was just chosen for the test. What you do is put a 1k tone in (eg., through a loudspeaker) and measure the mic output (through a preamp/ADC step and into the computer). If all was working you would see only 1k on the output. But instead you often see *multiples* of the input (2k, 3k, etc) which are called "harmonics". Hence the term "total harmonic distortion". These should not be there, but are caused by nonlinearities in the response of the mic (well, the whole signal chain, actually). You measure the distortion by comparing the desired peak (1k) to undesired ones. Here you have (in red, I think) the main peak at (approx) -28dB and the 2k peak at -73dB. The difference is approx 45dB. So the distortion is 45dB below the signal. 20dB is a factor of ten (in power) so you've got, less than 1% distortion. 1% would be exactly 40dB down.
Bye...
Richard
Wow, thank you! +T
That's a great explanation...
-
If this a stupid question, then apologizies in advance, but why does the distortion attack 1k the most?
Distortion does not "attack" any one frequency. 1k was just chosen for the test. What you do is put a 1k tone in (eg., through a loudspeaker) and measure the mic output (through a preamp/ADC step and into the computer). If all was working you would see only 1k on the output. But instead you often see *multiples* of the input (2k, 3k, etc) which are called "harmonics". Hence the term "total harmonic distortion". These should not be there, but are caused by nonlinearities in the response of the mic (well, the whole signal chain, actually). You measure the distortion by comparing the desired peak (1k) to undesired ones. Here you have (in red, I think) the main peak at (approx) -28dB and the 2k peak at -73dB. The difference is approx 45dB. So the distortion is 45dB below the signal. 20dB is a factor of ten (in power) so you've got, less than 1% distortion. 1% would be exactly 40dB down.
Bye...
Richard
Wow, thank you! +T
That's a great explanation...
1k is also the standard test frequency. We all know that mics usually don't distort at high frequencies they distort at low frequencies but its very hard to find a source ( speaker ) that puts out say 40hz with no distortion at 114db :) so that's why the industry standard is 1k. I think it should be 60hz 150hz and 1k and 10k and 20k because that gives you a picture of the performance of the mic the real problem is finding a speaker that has no distortion at these frequencies. That is very hard. I think its important when your producing mics to know what your distortion figures are so that when I sell a pair of mics they are matched both in distortion performance and total output is matched to with in 0.3db of each other and distortion matching is to with in 0.03% of each mic in a stereo pair.. So when your mics overload they both overload at the same time. If this is not done you could have you left side distort much earlier then the right side.
-
If this a stupid question, then apologizies in advance, but why does the distortion attack 1k the most?
Distortion does not "attack" any one frequency. 1k was just chosen for the test. What you do is put a 1k tone in (eg., through a loudspeaker) and measure the mic output (through a preamp/ADC step and into the computer). If all was working you would see only 1k on the output. But instead you often see *multiples* of the input (2k, 3k, etc) which are called "harmonics". Hence the term "total harmonic distortion". These should not be there, but are caused by nonlinearities in the response of the mic (well, the whole signal chain, actually). You measure the distortion by comparing the desired peak (1k) to undesired ones. Here you have (in red, I think) the main peak at (approx) -28dB and the 2k peak at -73dB. The difference is approx 45dB. So the distortion is 45dB below the signal. 20dB is a factor of ten (in power) so you've got, less than 1% distortion. 1% would be exactly 40dB down.
Bye...
Richard
Wow, thank you! +T
That's a great explanation...
1k is also the standard test frequency. We all know that mics usually don't distort at high frequencies they distort at low frequencies but its very hard to find a source ( speaker ) that puts out say 40hz with no distortion at 114db :) so that's why the industry standard is 1k. I think it should be 60hz 150hz and 1k and 10k and 20k because that gives you a picture of the performance of the mic the real problem is finding a speaker that has no distortion at these frequencies. That is very hard. I think its important when your producing mics to know what your distortion figures are so that when I sell a pair of mics they are matched both in distortion performance and total output is matched to with in 0.3db of each other and distortion matching is to with in 0.03% of each mic in a stereo pair.. So when your mics overload they both overload at the same time. If this is not done you could have you left side distort much earlier then the right side.
Yeah, thanks Chris for all this geek speek!
Richard
-
If this a stupid question, then apologizies in advance, but why does the distortion attack 1k the most?
Distortion does not "attack" any one frequency. 1k was just chosen for the test. What you do is put a 1k tone in (eg., through a loudspeaker) and measure the mic output (through a preamp/ADC step and into the computer). If all was working you would see only 1k on the output. But instead you often see *multiples* of the input (2k, 3k, etc) which are called "harmonics". Hence the term "total harmonic distortion". These should not be there, but are caused by nonlinearities in the response of the mic (well, the whole signal chain, actually). You measure the distortion by comparing the desired peak (1k) to undesired ones. Here you have (in red, I think) the main peak at (approx) -28dB and the 2k peak at -73dB. The difference is approx 45dB. So the distortion is 45dB below the signal. 20dB is a factor of ten (in power) so you've got, less than 1% distortion. 1% would be exactly 40dB down.
Bye...
Richard
Wow, thank you! +T
That's a great explanation...
1k is also the standard test frequency. We all know that mics usually don't distort at high frequencies they distort at low frequencies but its very hard to find a source ( speaker ) that puts out say 40hz with no distortion at 114db :) so that's why the industry standard is 1k. I think it should be 60hz 150hz and 1k and 10k and 20k because that gives you a picture of the performance of the mic the real problem is finding a speaker that has no distortion at these frequencies. That is very hard. I think its important when your producing mics to know what your distortion figures are so that when I sell a pair of mics they are matched both in distortion performance and total output is matched to with in 0.3db of each other and distortion matching is to with in 0.03% of each mic in a stereo pair.. So when your mics overload they both overload at the same time. If this is not done you could have you left side distort much earlier then the right side.
Yeah, thanks Chris for all this geek speek!
Richard
Hehehe.. I have a lot to learn about electronics.. I will be the first to admit that. But its a lot of fun designing things. But its more fun to talk as a group to see how we can make something better. Then everyone benefits from our tinkering... Guys like you and Bob who spend lots of time seeing how things work and figuring it all out. Thats fun.. I love the smell of burnt electronics in the morning :)
Chris Church
-
If this a stupid question, then apologizies in advance, but why does the distortion attack 1k the most?
Distortion does not "attack" any one frequency. 1k was just chosen for the test. What you do is put a 1k tone in (eg., through a loudspeaker) and measure the mic output (through a preamp/ADC step and into the computer). If all was working you would see only 1k on the output. But instead you often see *multiples* of the input (2k, 3k, etc) which are called "harmonics". Hence the term "total harmonic distortion". These should not be there, but are caused by nonlinearities in the response of the mic (well, the whole signal chain, actually). You measure the distortion by comparing the desired peak (1k) to undesired ones. Here you have (in red, I think) the main peak at (approx) -28dB and the 2k peak at -73dB. The difference is approx 45dB. So the distortion is 45dB below the signal. 20dB is a factor of ten (in power) so you've got, less than 1% distortion. 1% would be exactly 40dB down.
Bye...
Richard
Wow, thank you! +T
That's a great explanation...
1k is also the standard test frequency. We all know that mics usually don't distort at high frequencies they distort at low frequencies but its very hard to find a source ( speaker ) that puts out say 40hz with no distortion at 114db :) so that's why the industry standard is 1k. I think it should be 60hz 150hz and 1k and 10k and 20k because that gives you a picture of the performance of the mic the real problem is finding a speaker that has no distortion at these frequencies. That is very hard. I think its important when your producing mics to know what your distortion figures are so that when I sell a pair of mics they are matched both in distortion performance and total output is matched to with in 0.3db of each other and distortion matching is to with in 0.03% of each mic in a stereo pair.. So when your mics overload they both overload at the same time. If this is not done you could have you left side distort much earlier then the right side.
Yeah, thanks Chris for all this geek speek!
Richard
so that was every reason to take away a ticket?...not that I'm following along of course :)
getting back to the topic at hand...
-
If this a stupid question, then apologizies in advance, but why does the distortion attack 1k the most?
Distortion does not "attack" any one frequency. 1k was just chosen for the test. What you do is put a 1k tone in (eg., through a loudspeaker) and measure the mic output (through a preamp/ADC step and into the computer). If all was working you would see only 1k on the output. But instead you often see *multiples* of the input (2k, 3k, etc) which are called "harmonics". Hence the term "total harmonic distortion". These should not be there, but are caused by nonlinearities in the response of the mic (well, the whole signal chain, actually). You measure the distortion by comparing the desired peak (1k) to undesired ones. Here you have (in red, I think) the main peak at (approx) -28dB and the 2k peak at -73dB. The difference is approx 45dB. So the distortion is 45dB below the signal. 20dB is a factor of ten (in power) so you've got, less than 1% distortion. 1% would be exactly 40dB down.
Bye...
Richard
Wow, thank you! +T
That's a great explanation...
1k is also the standard test frequency. We all know that mics usually don't distort at high frequencies they distort at low frequencies but its very hard to find a source ( speaker ) that puts out say 40hz with no distortion at 114db :) so that's why the industry standard is 1k. I think it should be 60hz 150hz and 1k and 10k and 20k because that gives you a picture of the performance of the mic the real problem is finding a speaker that has no distortion at these frequencies. That is very hard. I think its important when your producing mics to know what your distortion figures are so that when I sell a pair of mics they are matched both in distortion performance and total output is matched to with in 0.3db of each other and distortion matching is to with in 0.03% of each mic in a stereo pair.. So when your mics overload they both overload at the same time. If this is not done you could have you left side distort much earlier then the right side.
Yeah, thanks Chris for all this geek speek!
Richard
so that was every reason to take away a ticket?...not that I'm following along of course :)
getting back to the topic at hand...
I did not take your tickets :) I just gave you a T+ :)
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I wish there were more people like Chris, Brian, Richard and guysonic and less big-headed-big-heads in this world.
-
What I don't understand is why SoundPros have not caught on and offered three wire battery boxes. They are missing a *huge* market here.
They'll just tell you need phantom power. ::)
But I *really* do agree...
I'm not at all trying to bad-mouth Sound Professionals, but you know I asked Chris (Sound Pro Chris) a bunch of questions and got *completely* different answers from what other technical minded people on here told me.
Here is the problem with the A-T mics as I see it.. Number 1 the distortion figures they are using are not accurate.. These mics do distort badly I have measured them at 114db at 1k these mics have a distortion that is almost 15% that is VERY HIGH! I measure my own mic capsules from the factory they are 10% typical but after my mod the AT mics measure 0.5% and my mics measure 0.5%. So getting the mod done to these mics saves them from distortion but you do sacrifice some level that's why after doing the mod you should invest in a preamp.. To run your mics unless your always taping loud shows then you don't need a preamp in most cases..
Chris Church
I find people that are using the MT do need a preamp after my mod because the noise floor in the MT preamp is bad to begin with. And when you need the extra gain from the MT it brings up the noise floor too much, that being said the preamp in the Edirol R-09 is much better and more often then not for most loud shows not needed..
Hey Chris. I think the problem is AT mics were *never* designed to run as "two-wire" at all. If you look at any of the numerous AT powering options, they use a three-wire circuit. Even the power modules that are battery/phantom split the battery voltage so that half is across the FET and half across the (source) load resistor.
As far as "not enough gain" that is subjective. Sure, if you're trying to run into a NJB3 or Iriver, you've got a problem. But several line inputs, like Edirol R01/R09, and Minidisc have enough gain to bring this up nicely for any amplified music. I think they might add 10-15dB or so but that is quite enough. That is why I've been using my MD so much even though I've got a lot (!) of other gear.
Richard
Richard they are not really three wire capsule all they are is two wire capsules that have a separate ground wire to the case. The red wire is the signal the Yellow is the negative if you remove the ground wire the mic will still work but will be noisy in a true three wire capsule it will not work..
This is the same as the other capsule I use for my mics. I could be wrong but that's what I have discovered.
I gotta disagree with you there!
AT and yours are both three wire. Red is the drain of the FET, Yellow is the source of the FET and shield is ground (of the capsule). The other end of the capsule goes to the gate of the FET. For two wire you short yellow and ground (at the 3.5mm stereo plug, usually).
Your mics have three wires too, +, audio, and ground. Some variants have a source resistor (eg., 2.2k) soldered between audio and ground.
Richard
Ok I stand corrected I have never opened up an AT mic.
So, could this be playing a role in my problem at all? I have AT943's wired from SP to be used with the Samsom adapters. For some reason, they seem to work fine using phantom and the adapters, but I've had a lot of problems running them into a 3-wire box and then into my H120. Seems like they kill the 9v battery in the 3-wire preamp quickly and/or aren't getting enough juice or something weird. But I also wondered if it was b/c of my H120 unit or something, cause it seems to work OK from the 3-wire preamp into my R4. I read somewhere about some H120's not being grounded properly internally. Could that cause the problem? Again, it seems that AT943 > Samson > FP24(Tape Out Mini) > H120 works, and even AT943 > 3-Wire Preamp > Mini Stereo-to-dual-1/4" > R4 works too, but having lots of trouble with AT943 > 3-wire preamp > H120? It's so weird, I mean WTF? In different combos, everything works! The H120 seems to work with the FP24 and samson adapters, and the 3-wire preamp seems to work with the R4, but the H120 and the 3-wire preamp don't seem to like each other for some ungodly known reason (and that's the combo I need for hardcore stealth). When I plug the 3-wire output into the H120 input, I actually get a signal for a second or two, then I hear a minor "swooshing" sound as it fades away to no signal. Weird. Tried new batteries too, and it works with the R4? WTF? Any ideas?
-
What I don't understand is why SoundPros have not caught on and offered three wire battery boxes. They are missing a *huge* market here.
They'll just tell you need phantom power. ::)
But I *really* do agree...
I'm not at all trying to bad-mouth Sound Professionals, but you know I asked Chris (Sound Pro Chris) a bunch of questions and got *completely* different answers from what other technical minded people on here told me.
Here is the problem with the A-T mics as I see it.. Number 1 the distortion figures they are using are not accurate.. These mics do distort badly I have measured them at 114db at 1k these mics have a distortion that is almost 15% that is VERY HIGH! I measure my own mic capsules from the factory they are 10% typical but after my mod the AT mics measure 0.5% and my mics measure 0.5%. So getting the mod done to these mics saves them from distortion but you do sacrifice some level that's why after doing the mod you should invest in a preamp.. To run your mics unless your always taping loud shows then you don't need a preamp in most cases..
Chris Church
I find people that are using the MT do need a preamp after my mod because the noise floor in the MT preamp is bad to begin with. And when you need the extra gain from the MT it brings up the noise floor too much, that being said the preamp in the Edirol R-09 is much better and more often then not for most loud shows not needed..
Hey Chris. I think the problem is AT mics were *never* designed to run as "two-wire" at all. If you look at any of the numerous AT powering options, they use a three-wire circuit. Even the power modules that are battery/phantom split the battery voltage so that half is across the FET and half across the (source) load resistor.
As far as "not enough gain" that is subjective. Sure, if you're trying to run into a NJB3 or Iriver, you've got a problem. But several line inputs, like Edirol R01/R09, and Minidisc have enough gain to bring this up nicely for any amplified music. I think they might add 10-15dB or so but that is quite enough. That is why I've been using my MD so much even though I've got a lot (!) of other gear.
Richard
Richard they are not really three wire capsule all they are is two wire capsules that have a separate ground wire to the case. The red wire is the signal the Yellow is the negative if you remove the ground wire the mic will still work but will be noisy in a true three wire capsule it will not work..
This is the same as the other capsule I use for my mics. I could be wrong but that's what I have discovered.
I gotta disagree with you there!
AT and yours are both three wire. Red is the drain of the FET, Yellow is the source of the FET and shield is ground (of the capsule). The other end of the capsule goes to the gate of the FET. For two wire you short yellow and ground (at the 3.5mm stereo plug, usually).
Your mics have three wires too, +, audio, and ground. Some variants have a source resistor (eg., 2.2k) soldered between audio and ground.
Richard
Ok I stand corrected I have never opened up an AT mic.
So, could this be playing a role in my problem at all? I have AT943's wired from SP to be used with the Samsom adapters. For some reason, they seem to work fine using phantom and the adapters, but I've had a lot of problems running them into a 3-wire box and then into my H120. Seems like they kill the 9v battery in the 3-wire preamp quickly and/or aren't getting enough juice or something weird. But I also wondered if it was b/c of my H120 unit or something, cause it seems to work OK from the 3-wire preamp into my R4. I read somewhere about some H120's not being grounded properly internally. Could that cause the problem? Again, it seems that AT943 > Samson > FP24(Tape Out Mini) > H120 works, and even AT943 > 3-Wire Preamp > Mini Stereo-to-dual-1/4" > R4 works too, but having lots of trouble with AT943 > 3-wire preamp > H120? It's so weird, I mean WTF? In different combos, everything works! The H120 seems to work with the FP24 and samson adapters, and the 3-wire preamp seems to work with the R4, but the H120 and the 3-wire preamp don't seem to like each other for some ungodly known reason (and that's the combo I need for hardcore stealth). When I plug the 3-wire output into the H120 input, I actually get a signal for a second or two, then I hear a minor "swooshing" sound as it fades away to no signal. Weird. Tried new batteries too, and it works with the R4? WTF? Any ideas?
Is this one of my preamps??? If so I would love to take a look at the H120 and the preamp and see whats going on. I am trying to get my hands on a H120 as we speak I wanted to do some tests with it just to see how it works and where the ground problems are.. I have not had other customers complain but I have heard that the h120 has issues....
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i am soo pissed off right now i cant even explain it......
so what is a better option in your guys' opinions??
the mic mod?
or the 3 wire BB?
either way .. where to get it/them done??
Mr.Church.. is this something you can do reasonable quick??
thanks
When I purchased my at853's from soundpro then read about phantom power, naturally, I wanted to jump aboard the gravy train. I sent my mics back to soundpro and had them attach mini xlr inoputs at the end. For a while, I ran with those damn xlr samson adapters and a preamp (such as the beyer mv-100 or sound devices mp-2). It was hell taping with this setup as the samson adapters stuck out quite a bit and made it for a rather uncomfortable experience interms of stealthing or just lugging this stuff around into a open taping show.
I eventually got a DIY mini xlr bbox from the yard sale and all was well but that sucker fell apart and I went to Chris Church and he sold me a bbox with mini xlr inputs for a good price (no preamp section, so I gotta rely on the H140's gain). I like the at853>chris church bbox>H140 rig I run for stealth. It's small and easy to conceal and it sounds good. Best of luck whichever path you choose, just avoid the samson adapters though.
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Take the male end of that cable into these phantom adapters (http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-XLRM-MINI-2) XLR Male into the UA-5 that gives 48v phantom to the AT's on top of the stand.
works like a charm and sounds great! about to send the UA-5 off for the Bman tinkering.
Back in the day I used to run my SP-CMC-4 (old mics, before the CMC-4U) with a 2 wire battery box. I'm wondering if this phantom adapter setup would work well with a Denecke PS2 and if it would sound better than the battery box? Any thoughts? I would prefer to leave the 1/8 connection intact and not send them back in to SoundPros to be modded to XLR connectors.
-
Take the male end of that cable into these phantom adapters (http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-XLRM-MINI-2) XLR Male into the UA-5 that gives 48v phantom to the AT's on top of the stand.
works like a charm and sounds great! about to send the UA-5 off for the Bman tinkering.
Back in the day I used to run my SP-CMC-4 (old mics, before the CMC-4U) with a 2 wire battery box. I'm wondering if this phantom adapter setup would work well with a Denecke PS2 and if it would sound better than the battery box? Any thoughts? I would prefer to leave the 1/8 connection intact and not send them back in to SoundPros to be modded to XLR connectors.
If you do the mod that I do to your mics by connecting the Yellow wire to a 4.7k 1/8th watt 1% metal film resistor and ground you will lower the distortion of this mic from 14% at 114db to 0.5% at 114 db and you can keep your 1/8th inch plug you might need a new one as you will have to chop and re solder the resistors. ( I can send you a pair of resistors for free if you want just pay for the stamp )
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thanks everyone,
just an fyi, i ran a small experiment (not done yet). nothing with mods, just differnt setting on the MT (change the setting to 'L'). Set up rig in car, system that pushes 400 watts rms (50 watts * 4 channels and 200 watts to sub, not peak but constant power). I don't know what type of dB level this would be, but its loud. It doesn't appear to overload the MT now (no red lights). So maybe I had the wrong setting. I need to check some other things and I'll report back. Not quite as technical as all the post here, but I'm learning.
Thanks again,
John
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Guys,
After reading through this thread, I have a few concerns with what I was planning to use for one of my setups. I just bought these mics:
[SOUND PROFESSIONALS DELUXE MINI CARDIOID STEREO MICROPHONES. MADE IN USA.]
SP-CMC-22 - SOUND PROFESSIONALS - DELUXE MINI CARDIOID STEREO MICROPHONES
I was going to buy:
SP-SPSB-8 - SOUND PROFESSIONALS - MINI BATTERY MODULE WITH OPTIONAL BASS ROLL OFF AND OUTPUT LEVEL CONTROL.
Then run to my Church audio ST-9000 preamp, then to JB3
I plan on taping metal and hard rock, not in arena's, but small clubs.
Am I going to have a problem with distortion, and if so, when do I need to buy/mod.
Thanks for the great thread, I have learned alot.
-
Guys,
After reading through this thread, I have a few concerns with what I was planning to use for one of my setups. I just bought these mics:
[SOUND PROFESSIONALS DELUXE MINI CARDIOID STEREO MICROPHONES. MADE IN USA.]
SP-CMC-22 - SOUND PROFESSIONALS - DELUXE MINI CARDIOID STEREO MICROPHONES
I was going to buy:
SP-SPSB-8 - SOUND PROFESSIONALS - MINI BATTERY MODULE WITH OPTIONAL BASS ROLL OFF AND OUTPUT LEVEL CONTROL.
Then run to my Church audio ST-9000 preamp, then to JB3
I plan on taping metal and hard rock, not in arena's, but small clubs.
Am I going to have a problem with distortion, and if so, when do I need to buy/mod.
Thanks for the great thread, I have learned alot.
Try it first listen alot of people already have the AT mics and dont have distortion issues. Try your setup and see how it is. if it does distort I can show you how to mod the mics or send them to me I will do it for $10.00
Chris Church
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Guys,
After reading through this thread, I have a few concerns with what I was planning to use for one of my setups. I just bought these mics:
[SOUND PROFESSIONALS DELUXE MINI CARDIOID STEREO MICROPHONES. MADE IN USA.]
SP-CMC-22 - SOUND PROFESSIONALS - DELUXE MINI CARDIOID STEREO MICROPHONES
I was going to buy:
SP-SPSB-8 - SOUND PROFESSIONALS - MINI BATTERY MODULE WITH OPTIONAL BASS ROLL OFF AND OUTPUT LEVEL CONTROL.
Then run to my Church audio ST-9000 preamp, then to JB3
I plan on taping metal and hard rock, not in arena's, but small clubs.
Am I going to have a problem with distortion, and if so, when do I need to buy/mod.
Thanks for the great thread, I have learned alot.
Try it first listen alot of people already have the AT mics and dont have distortion issues. Try your setup and see how it is. if it does distort I can show you how to mod the mics or send them to me I will do it for $10.00
Chris Church
That sounds reasonable....thanks
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Guys,
After reading through this thread, I have a few concerns with what I was planning to use for one of my setups. I just bought these mics:
[SOUND PROFESSIONALS DELUXE MINI CARDIOID STEREO MICROPHONES. MADE IN USA.]
SP-CMC-22 - SOUND PROFESSIONALS - DELUXE MINI CARDIOID STEREO MICROPHONES
I was going to buy:
SP-SPSB-8 - SOUND PROFESSIONALS - MINI BATTERY MODULE WITH OPTIONAL BASS ROLL OFF AND OUTPUT LEVEL CONTROL.
Then run to my Church audio ST-9000 preamp, then to JB3
I plan on taping metal and hard rock, not in arena's, but small clubs.
Am I going to have a problem with distortion, and if so, when do I need to buy/mod.
Thanks for the great thread, I have learned alot.
Try it first listen alot of people already have the AT mics and dont have distortion issues. Try your setup and see how it is. if it does distort I can show you how to mod the mics or send them to me I will do it for $10.00
Chris Church
Just to clarify...the CMC-22s do not have AT capsules, they have Panasonic capsules...
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Guys,
After reading through this thread, I have a few concerns with what I was planning to use for one of my setups. I just bought these mics:
[SOUND PROFESSIONALS DELUXE MINI CARDIOID STEREO MICROPHONES. MADE IN USA.]
SP-CMC-22 - SOUND PROFESSIONALS - DELUXE MINI CARDIOID STEREO MICROPHONES
I was going to buy:
SP-SPSB-8 - SOUND PROFESSIONALS - MINI BATTERY MODULE WITH OPTIONAL BASS ROLL OFF AND OUTPUT LEVEL CONTROL.
Then run to my Church audio ST-9000 preamp, then to JB3
I plan on taping metal and hard rock, not in arena's, but small clubs.
Am I going to have a problem with distortion, and if so, when do I need to buy/mod.
Thanks for the great thread, I have learned alot.
Try it first listen alot of people already have the AT mics and dont have distortion issues. Try your setup and see how it is. if it does distort I can show you how to mod the mics or send them to me I will do it for $10.00
Chris Church
Just to clarify...the CMC-22s do not have AT capsules, they have Panasonic capsules...
Oh I am sorry I thought they were AT mics........ In that case I dont think they can be modifyed.... I am sure they will be fine I think SP already mods these mics but I might be wrong I would ask Chris at SP. I am sure he can tell you what kind of levels these mics will work at....
Chris Church
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Guys,
After reading through this thread, I have a few concerns with what I was planning to use for one of my setups. I just bought these mics:
[SOUND PROFESSIONALS DELUXE MINI CARDIOID STEREO MICROPHONES. MADE IN USA.]
SP-CMC-22 - SOUND PROFESSIONALS - DELUXE MINI CARDIOID STEREO MICROPHONES
I was going to buy:
SP-SPSB-8 - SOUND PROFESSIONALS - MINI BATTERY MODULE WITH OPTIONAL BASS ROLL OFF AND OUTPUT LEVEL CONTROL.
Then run to my Church audio ST-9000 preamp, then to JB3
I plan on taping metal and hard rock, not in arena's, but small clubs.
Am I going to have a problem with distortion, and if so, when do I need to buy/mod.
Thanks for the great thread, I have learned alot.
Try it first listen alot of people already have the AT mics and dont have distortion issues. Try your setup and see how it is. if it does distort I can show you how to mod the mics or send them to me I will do it for $10.00
Chris Church
Just to clarify...the CMC-22s do not have AT capsules, they have Panasonic capsules...
Oh I am sorry I thought they were AT mics........ In that case I dont think they can be modifyed.... I am sure they will be fine I think SP already mods these mics but I might be wrong I would ask Chris at SP. I am sure he can tell you what kind of levels these mics will work at....
Chris Church
Hey Chris,
My guess is that soundpros *do not* modify their mics. I think the only other company that does is Core Sound, and they do the "linkwitz mod" instead of your method. I like your method better, since the mics are compatable with "standard" 2-wire battery boxes.
Richard
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Guys,
After reading through this thread, I have a few concerns with what I was planning to use for one of my setups. I just bought these mics:
[SOUND PROFESSIONALS DELUXE MINI CARDIOID STEREO MICROPHONES. MADE IN USA.]
SP-CMC-22 - SOUND PROFESSIONALS - DELUXE MINI CARDIOID STEREO MICROPHONES
I was going to buy:
SP-SPSB-8 - SOUND PROFESSIONALS - MINI BATTERY MODULE WITH OPTIONAL BASS ROLL OFF AND OUTPUT LEVEL CONTROL.
Then run to my Church audio ST-9000 preamp, then to JB3
I plan on taping metal and hard rock, not in arena's, but small clubs.
Am I going to have a problem with distortion, and if so, when do I need to buy/mod.
Thanks for the great thread, I have learned alot.
Try it first listen alot of people already have the AT mics and dont have distortion issues. Try your setup and see how it is. if it does distort I can show you how to mod the mics or send them to me I will do it for $10.00
Chris Church
Just to clarify...the CMC-22s do not have AT capsules, they have Panasonic capsules...
Oh I am sorry I thought they were AT mics........ In that case I dont think they can be modifyed.... I am sure they will be fine I think SP already mods these mics but I might be wrong I would ask Chris at SP. I am sure he can tell you what kind of levels these mics will work at....
Chris Church
Hey Chris,
My guess is that soundpros *do not* modify their mics. I think the only other company that does is Core Sound, and they do the "linkwitz mod" instead of your method. I like your method better, since the mics are compatable with "standard" 2-wire battery boxes.
Richard
My method also works with Panasonic mics too.... And transound ts-60a ( A very VERY ) easy omni capsule to mod funny enough the distortion figures on the transound ts-60 end up being the same as the AT mics 0.5% after the mod... Anyone wanting a good capsule to make a nice pair of omni mics out of should look at the ts-60a very closely its a dead match for the Panasonic 60 capsule..
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Hi, after reading all this post, i can t take a decision.
I also own a pair of cmc-4-u.
So, I d like to know what is the best for these mics:
- Battery box with bass roll off?
- 3-wire battery box?
- 3-wire battery box with preamp?
- phantom?
- .....
I use to record rock, pop or metal shows....
Thanks for the help and for this post.
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Hi, after reading all this post, i can t take a decision.
I also own a pair of cmc-4-u.
So, I d like to know what is the best for these mics:
- Battery box with bass roll off?
- 3-wire battery box?
- 3-wire battery box with preamp?
- phantom?
- .....
I use to record rock, pop or metal shows....
Thanks for the help and for this post.
My st-9100 will work great with these mics and reduce your distortion. On the other hand if you put in the 4.7 k resistor mod I do you can buy a plain old battery box but you will not have any extra gain.
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I'm sure of it, thanks a lot, but it's a little more expensive.
I mean what is the best for U853 in an homemade battery box :)...Richard's one? Is it important to have a preamp or a 3-wire battery box is suffsant?
Thanks
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I'm sure of it, thanks a lot, but it's a little more expensive.
I mean what is the best for U853 in an homemade battery box :)...Richard's one? Is it important to have a preamp or a 3-wire battery box is suffsant?
Thanks
It really does depend on a few things.. 1 what are you connecting the mic too (what recorder) The battery box by it self does not improve distortion... But when you go to three wire or my mod you will get reduced distortion its all a matter of if extra gain is required with a battery box you get no extra gain. With a preamp you do. So its up to you... I only suggested my preamp because it kills two birds with one stone it provides a battery box $100 if you just got a battery box and a preamp $79.00 so IMO if you can afford to spend the extra $79 I would but that's up to you I am not trying to sell you anything.. But I am being honest my preamp does give you the most amount of flexibility for under $200.00
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Chris,
How much gain do you lose when you go 3 wire with your 9100 pre?
What is the total gain after the 3 wire mod?
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Hey chris, don t you the sell the schematics of your preamp :D.....
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Chris,
How much gain do you lose when you go 3 wire with your 9100 pre?
What is the total gain after the 3 wire mod?
As soon as you do my mod or 3 wire you lose about 15 db or so that's why my preamp is a good deal because you lose the distortion but make up all the lost gain and then some.. That's why I built it..
Chris Church
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so you're' still getting 20db gain with 3 wire?
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Hey chris, don t you the sell the schematics of your preamp :D.....
Hey why don't you build your own :) heheh. Hey if you want to try and build a preamp similar to mine its not big deal I will help you with it. I will not charge for my help.
Chris Church
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so you're' still getting 20db gain with 3 wire?
Yeppers its actually more like +25 but who's counting :)
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I thought your 9100 pre only does 20db gain, do you gain more with a 3 wire mod?
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I thought your 9100 pre only does 20db gain, do you gain more with a 3 wire mod?
no you don't gain anymore the st-9100 will put out about 23.5 db or so at max with a new battery. But I just say +20.
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IMO the three-wire box (or Chris' 4.7k mod) loses a bit of gain, but not much. I would guess something like -10dB or so. But it is not a problem in practice (see below).
For any reasonable level of amplified music, a minidisc mic-in/low-sens will work great. I've recorded a ton of shows with this. FYI, mic-in/low-sens on MD is pretty much the same as mic-in/low-sens setting on the Edirol R09. Both have moderate gain (around +20dB max) and a wide range of variation of input levels that will not overload (eg., from -20dBv to +10dBv). At these moderate levels of amplification mic pre noise is not usually a problem.
Problem cases are:
- recording quieter stuff, like acoustic music. You could run mic-in/hi-sens, but that is noisy, but an external pre will help.
- recording with certain low output mics, like Sony ECM-907. These are about -10dB lower than the AT stuff.
- trying to run into line input on crappy analog inputs, like iRivier, NJB3, etc. These provide a little gain, but it is terrible quality,
so all the gain should come from an external preamp.
I suspect a preamp may provide a bit nicer/cleaner gain than the MD/Edirol mic-in/low-sens inputs. I'm currently getting one of Chris' pres to check this out. But it is not really needed to get started. Consider it as a potential upgrade later on.
Richard
PS: Thanks for Chris for posting, and *repeatedly* answering the same questions. That is one reason I stopped selling battery boxes. I just don't have the patience for that. I also worry about building/servicing stuff for others. I keep worrying that it will break and I will let people down.
I'm wondering if some kind person can put this stuff in an FAQ. Perhaps a "flowchart" saying what conditions you need a battery box/three-wire box/preamp, and where to get one (links to Chris or others to buy and links to some schematics I've posted in the past if you want to build one). Sorry, I don't have the energy to do this right now.
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I don't understand the problem here.
The three-wire box (or Chris' 4.7k mod) loses a bit of gain, but not much. I would guess something like -10dB or so. But it is not a problem in practice (see below).
For any reasonable level of amplified music, a minidisc mic-in/low-sens will work great. I've recorded a ton of shows with this. FYI, mic-in/low-sens on MD is pretty much the same as mic-in/low-sens setting on the Edirol R09. Both have moderate gain (around 20dB max) and a wide range of variation of input levels that will not overload (eg., from -20dBv to +10dBv). At these moderate levels of amplification mic pre noise is not usually a problem.
Problem cases are:
- recording quieter stuff, like acoustic music. You could run mic-in/hi-sens, but that is noisy. An external pre will help.
- recording with certain low output mics, like Sony ECM-907. These are about -10dB lower than the AT stuff.
- trying to run into line input on crappy analog inputs, like iRivier, NJB3, etc. These provide a little gain, but it is terrible quality,
so all the gain should come from an external preamp.
I suspect a preamp may provide a bit nicer/cleaner gain than the MD/Edirol mic-in/low-sens inputs. But it is not really needed per se.
Richard
Its not needed. Until you need it :) I always suggest people buy this preamp instead of a battery box because I sell the preamp for $79 more then a three wire battery box $100 so your are better off having the best of both worlds my preamp allows you to get hotter levels with out the noise and to be able to normalize less. Not to mention the clip light that allows you to monitor distortion levels while your recording. Something a battery box does not have. I would say if your using the new HIMD recorders you don't need a preamp or if your using the Edirol R-09 with my mics or a pair of my modded mics you don't need a battery box never mind a preamp. But if you record all kinds of stuff from quiet to loud its better to spend the extra $79 and get a preamp and a battery box then to just spend $100 and get a battery box that will not help you much in quiet situations you "might" find your self in.
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I don't understand the problem here.
The three-wire box (or Chris' 4.7k mod) loses a bit of gain, but not much. I would guess something like -10dB or so. But it is not a problem in practice (see below).
For any reasonable level of amplified music, a minidisc mic-in/low-sens will work great. I've recorded a ton of shows with this. FYI, mic-in/low-sens on MD is pretty much the same as mic-in/low-sens setting on the Edirol R09. Both have moderate gain (around 20dB max) and a wide range of variation of input levels that will not overload (eg., from -20dBv to +10dBv). At these moderate levels of amplification mic pre noise is not usually a problem.
Problem cases are:
- recording quieter stuff, like acoustic music. You could run mic-in/hi-sens, but that is noisy. An external pre will help.
- recording with certain low output mics, like Sony ECM-907. These are about -10dB lower than the AT stuff.
- trying to run into line input on crappy analog inputs, like iRivier, NJB3, etc. These provide a little gain, but it is terrible quality,
so all the gain should come from an external preamp.
I suspect a preamp may provide a bit nicer/cleaner gain than the MD/Edirol mic-in/low-sens inputs. But it is not really needed per se.
Richard
Its not needed. Until you need it :) I always suggest people buy this preamp instead of a battery box because I sell the preamp for $79 more then a three wire battery box $100 so your are better off having the best of both worlds my preamp allows you to get hotter levels with out the noise and to be able to normalize less. Not to mention the clip light that allows you to monitor distortion levels while your recording. Something a battery box does not have. I would say if your using the new HIMD recorders you don't need a preamp or if your using the Edirol R-09 with my mics or a pair of my modded mics you don't need a battery box never mind a preamp. But if you record all kinds of stuff from quiet to loud its better to spend the extra $79 and get a preamp and a battery box then to just spend $100 and get a battery box that will not help you much in quiet situations you "might" find your self in.
Well said, Chris! Exactly what I just rambled on about in the previous post.
Remember, you never know when you need a preamp. You may use MD now and later on need to run into an iRiver/NJB3/etc that has no real gain stage, and then you will need it!
Richard
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Here we go again...well for starters, the AT u853s with just battery power can only reproduce at most, 110 db's before they will start to distort.
Was this a loud show? Can you provide any samples?
Also, if you don't mind me asking, what other mics have you used in the past?
AT 114 db at 1k these mics have a distortion of 5% :) Pretty bad until you do my mod then its .5% much better.
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Little question please.
For my u853 i m building a 3 wire bbox(will put schematics and pics when it will be ready). Is it necessary to put a bass roll-off or not for taping "pop" shows with a hi-md recorder?
Thanks
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Little question please.
For my u853 i m building a 3 wire bbox(will put schematics and pics when it will be ready). Is it necessary to put a bass roll-off or not for taping "pop" shows with a hi-md recorder?
Thanks
I would put a bass roll off simply because its just a matter of a switch dbdt and a extra set of caps I use 330nf or .33uf same thing. This gives me about 90hz at 10k input. If you don't want to do that make sure you use 10uf caps for your dc blocking caps so that you allow the maximum amount of bass to flow thru.
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Here we go again...well for starters, the AT u853s with just battery power can only reproduce at most, 110 db's before they will start to distort.
Was this a loud show? Can you provide any samples?
Also, if you don't mind me asking, what other mics have you used in the past?
I have a mp3 sample if you would like
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Little question please.
For my u853 i m building a 3 wire bbox(will put schematics and pics when it will be ready). Is it necessary to put a bass roll-off or not for taping "pop" shows with a hi-md recorder?
Thanks
I would put a bass roll off simply because its just a matter of a switch dbdt and a extra set of caps I use 330nf or .33uf same thing. This gives me about 90hz at 10k input. If you don't want to do that make sure you use 10uf caps for your dc blocking caps so that you allow the maximum amount of bass to flow thru.
Thanks for all, i ve just realised the thrid schematic of this page:
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,72994.0.html
Do u agree with the values of the resistance and capacitor?
If u have to put a bass roll off on it, which capacitors would you use?
Last question, i tape using a Hi MD. Is it better to plug the bbox in the mic or in the line in input?
Thanks
Bye
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Little question please.
For my u853 i m building a 3 wire bbox(will put schematics and pics when it will be ready). Is it necessary to put a bass roll-off or not for taping "pop" shows with a hi-md recorder?
Thanks
I would put a bass roll off simply because its just a matter of a switch dbdt and a extra set of caps I use 330nf or .33uf same thing. This gives me about 90hz at 10k input. If you don't want to do that make sure you use 10uf caps for your dc blocking caps so that you allow the maximum amount of bass to flow thru.
Thanks for all, i ve just realised the thrid schematic of this page:
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,72994.0.html
Do u agree with the values of the resistance and capacitor?
If u have to put a bass roll off on it, which capacitors would you use?
Last question, i tape using a Hi MD. Is it better to plug the bbox in the mic or in the line in input?
Thanks
Bye
If you do my modification you don't need to go to three wire. The two wire mod I have come up with is very easy.. When you wire AT mics to go two wire. You must use the Red wire as the signal wire and the Yellow wire must be shorted to ground... With my mod all you do is insert a 4.7k 1% metal film resistors between the Yellow wire and ground, and you now have a set of mics that can be plugged right into a Edirol R-09 with no battery box required that will handle the same SPL as a set of AT mics with a battery box. And you don't need the roll off to reduce distortion ether... Simple effective and last but not least cheap.. This is what I do to my microphones. Three wire has no advantage over this method when this modification is performed.. Now a battery box is needed if you plan on going into a MD line input.. But now most HIMD recorders have a built in mic pad so that you can in fact go directly in with out the need for external battery boxes.
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Little question please.
For my u853 i m building a 3 wire bbox(will put schematics and pics when it will be ready). Is it necessary to put a bass roll-off or not for taping "pop" shows with a hi-md recorder?
Thanks
I would put a bass roll off simply because its just a matter of a switch dbdt and a extra set of caps I use 330nf or .33uf same thing. This gives me about 90hz at 10k input. If you don't want to do that make sure you use 10uf caps for your dc blocking caps so that you allow the maximum amount of bass to flow thru.
Thanks for all, i ve just realised the thrid schematic of this page:
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,72994.0.html
Do u agree with the values of the resistance and capacitor?
If u have to put a bass roll off on it, which capacitors would you use?
Last question, i tape using a Hi MD. Is it better to plug the bbox in the mic or in the line in input?
Thanks
Bye
If you do my modification you don't need to go to three wire. The two wire mod I have come up with is very easy.. When you wire AT mics to go two wire. You must use the Red wire as the signal wire and the Yellow wire must be shorted to ground... With my mod all you do is insert a 4.7k 1% metal film resistors between the Yellow wire and ground, and you now have a set of mics that can be plugged right into a Edirol R-09 with no battery box required that will handle the same SPL as a set of AT mics with a battery box. And you don't need the roll off to reduce distortion ether... Simple effective and last but not least cheap.. This is what I do to my microphones. Three wire has no advantage over this method when this modification is performed.. Now a battery box is needed if you plan on going into a MD line input.. But now most HIMD recorders have a built in mic pad so that you can in fact go directly in with out the need for external battery boxes.
I understand, but i have already build the 3 wire bbox. (third one of the link). My question is what to do if i need a bass roll off. May i have to only change the capacitor or do an external one?
I ve notice that with the 3 wire bbox, the sound is more muted when i record something (line in in Hi md recorder). I ve done a test recording my audio system. Is it normal? Will it be better for loud shows?
Thanks a lot
-
Little question please.
For my u853 i m building a 3 wire bbox(will put schematics and pics when it will be ready). Is it necessary to put a bass roll-off or not for taping "pop" shows with a hi-md recorder?
Thanks
I would put a bass roll off simply because its just a matter of a switch dbdt and a extra set of caps I use 330nf or .33uf same thing. This gives me about 90hz at 10k input. If you don't want to do that make sure you use 10uf caps for your dc blocking caps so that you allow the maximum amount of bass to flow thru.
Thanks for all, i ve just realised the thrid schematic of this page:
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,72994.0.html
Do u agree with the values of the resistance and capacitor?
If u have to put a bass roll off on it, which capacitors would you use?
Last question, i tape using a Hi MD. Is it better to plug the bbox in the mic or in the line in input?
Thanks
Bye
If you do my modification you don't need to go to three wire. The two wire mod I have come up with is very easy.. When you wire AT mics to go two wire. You must use the Red wire as the signal wire and the Yellow wire must be shorted to ground... With my mod all you do is insert a 4.7k 1% metal film resistors between the Yellow wire and ground, and you now have a set of mics that can be plugged right into a Edirol R-09 with no battery box required that will handle the same SPL as a set of AT mics with a battery box. And you don't need the roll off to reduce distortion ether... Simple effective and last but not least cheap.. This is what I do to my microphones. Three wire has no advantage over this method when this modification is performed.. Now a battery box is needed if you plan on going into a MD line input.. But now most HIMD recorders have a built in mic pad so that you can in fact go directly in with out the need for external battery boxes.
That is *almost* correct. There is a slight loss of gain comparing 4.7k mod to 3-wire, but not much at all. And it depends if that resistor is 4.7k or higher.
But, yes, this is the *simplest* solution. The mics will work with both plug in power and "standard" two wire battery boxes.
Yep, time to do that mod, folks! Note: you can do it right in the miniplug jack, or add a little extra "bump" in the cable that has the 4.7k resistors in it. Cover with shrink wrap and you're off.
Richard
-
Little question please.
For my u853 i m building a 3 wire bbox(will put schematics and pics when it will be ready). Is it necessary to put a bass roll-off or not for taping "pop" shows with a hi-md recorder?
Thanks
I would put a bass roll off simply because its just a matter of a switch dbdt and a extra set of caps I use 330nf or .33uf same thing. This gives me about 90hz at 10k input. If you don't want to do that make sure you use 10uf caps for your dc blocking caps so that you allow the maximum amount of bass to flow thru.
Thanks for all, i ve just realised the thrid schematic of this page:
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,72994.0.html
Do u agree with the values of the resistance and capacitor?
If u have to put a bass roll off on it, which capacitors would you use?
Last question, i tape using a Hi MD. Is it better to plug the bbox in the mic or in the line in input?
Thanks
Bye
If you do my modification you don't need to go to three wire. The two wire mod I have come up with is very easy.. When you wire AT mics to go two wire. You must use the Red wire as the signal wire and the Yellow wire must be shorted to ground... With my mod all you do is insert a 4.7k 1% metal film resistors between the Yellow wire and ground, and you now have a set of mics that can be plugged right into a Edirol R-09 with no battery box required that will handle the same SPL as a set of AT mics with a battery box. And you don't need the roll off to reduce distortion ether... Simple effective and last but not least cheap.. This is what I do to my microphones. Three wire has no advantage over this method when this modification is performed.. Now a battery box is needed if you plan on going into a MD line input.. But now most HIMD recorders have a built in mic pad so that you can in fact go directly in with out the need for external battery boxes.
That is *almost* correct. There is a slight loss of gain comparing 4.7k mod to 3-wire, but not much at all. And it depends if that resistor is 4.7k or higher.
But, yes, this is the *simplest* solution. The mics will work with both plug in power and "standard" two wire battery boxes.
Yep, time to do that mod, folks! Note: you can do it right in the miniplug jack, or add a little extra "bump" in the cable that has the 4.7k resistors in it. Cover with shrink wrap and you're off.
Richard
Hey I was hacking up a lung when I typed that... I am surprised anyone could make any sense out of it :)
Thanks for the correction Richard. I did find that 4.7 exactly produced the lowest distortion. I tried 5 k and it did not work very well. I also again highly recommend these be matched. And measured for precision 4.7k exactly gives the best results.
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Here we go again...well for starters, the AT u853s with just battery power can only reproduce at most, 110 db's before they will start to distort.
Was this a loud show? Can you provide any samples?
Also, if you don't mind me asking, what other mics have you used in the past?
I have a mp3 sample if you would like
If you click on my username, you can find my e-mail address on my profile page. E-mail me the sample if you want to.
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Hi everyone,
I ve a problem saturday night recording a show with my spcmc4u + 3wire bbox(third one of this page http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,72994.0.html). The show was not too loud in a big concert hall (10000 people).
I used a line in input and a 20/30 manuel volume on the MD.
When i transfert the MD on my pc, the signal is very small...
So here is my question :
With the 3-wire bbox, is it better to put the bbox box in mic in to upper the signal?i know that it depend on the volume of the show, but generally what people do?
And what are the risk of distorsion in mic in?
Thanks a lot
Bye
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regarding the 4.7k mod, [this is in regard to doing the mod at the mini-plug]
you can get away with just using 1 resistor. In theory it is electrically identical to using 2 resistors, but I have heard some people get nervous about the cables being joined together. maybe concerns over crosstalk or something. Both yellow cables go to the same ground, so , using one resistor is the same as two. Also by using one resistor, you don't have to worry about matching resistors, as it seems there is a problem using resistors that are slightly different values.
My mics were modded this way and work great....
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regarding the 4.7k mod,
you can get away with just using 1 resistor. In theory it is electrically identical to using 2 resistors, but I have heard some people get nervous about the cables being joined together. maybe concerns over crosstalk or something. Both yellow cables go to the same ground, so , using one resistor is the same as two. Also by using one resistor, you don't have to worry about matching resistors, as it seems there is a problem using resistors that are slightly different values.
My mics were modded this way and work great....
You need two I have 1/8th watt metal film resistors I can send you they are very small and I hand match them so your mics dont get unbalanced. I also use a switchcraft jack that is a bit bigger then the normal size 3.5 mm jack so you can put the resistors in with out any trouble. I will post some pictures in a day or so. Here is the only place I have found that has these jacks in stock BTX.COM http://www.btx.com/ItemForm.aspx?item=CA-35HDBAU&Category=4348ad2f-1b43-47dc-83b3-5cee8464acbf The picture of this connector might look similar to your regular jack but it has a jacket that is about 1x the size of a normal 3.5 mm jacket.
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Chris , I appreciate the offer to send me the 2 resistors. I might have to take you up on it, but first I would appreciate an explanation as to why 2 resistors are necessary in the mini-plug. My point is this:
Both yellow cables go to the same ground, so , using one resistor is the same as two.
Everything I know about electronics tells me this is hard to deny...
This question actually made it to AT. They are aware of the 4.7k and they also mentioned there are a few other mods that get similar results. They could not see a reason why 2 would be any different than one, at the ground.
That being said, I have not had one person make a good explanation as to why 2 would be any different than 1. Actually , it seems that since only one resistor is being used, the possibility of a value difference between resistors is negated as well....
T+ Chris
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Chris , I appreciate the offer to send me the 2 resistors. I might have to take you up on it, but first I would appreciate an explanation as to why 2 resistors are necessary in the mini-plug. My point is this:
Both yellow cables go to the same ground, so , using one resistor is the same as two.
Everything I know about electronics tells me this is hard to deny...
This question actually made it to AT. They are aware of the 4.7k and they also mentioned there are a few other mods that get similar results. They could not see a reason why 2 would be any different than one, at the ground.
That being said, I have not had one person make a good explanation as to why 2 would be any different than 1. Actually , it seems that since only one resistor is being used, the possibility of a value difference between resistors is negated as well....
T+ Chris
To be perfectly honest with you... I have never tested it lol... I should since I am the one that came up with the mod in the first place :) I am going to look into it. What you say makes perfect sense, I have a pair of AT mics here I will try the single resistor. If it works great. As far as the value differences I have a very accurate Ohm meter that is 6 digits I can match the resistors so they are exactly the same. But if this mod can be done with one resistor it would make life allot better for everyone doing my mod, I see your point you are very smart :) I guess I just had it in my head two mics two resistors lol.. I will test this sometime this week and get back to you.
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That would be really cool if you would test it out! The person that did my mod was only able to verify that the mics work, but not if there was a reduction in distortion at high SPLs. I have used the mics in the field with great results, but they have not been measured with equipment.
For those of you thinking of doing this mod yourself, I would think again. The mini-plug is fucking tiny, you need a person with some seriously good soldering skills to pull this off. Just hire Chris Church to do it, he has more experience than anyone doing this mod. In fact the guy that did mine, asked why I just didn't send it to Church. Why? Because I was impatient and wanted it done right then!
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That would be really cool if you would test it out! The person that did my mod was only able to verify that the mics work, but not if there was a reduction in distortion at high SPLs. I have used the mics in the field with great results, but they have not been measured with equipment.
For those of you thinking of doing this mod yourself, I would think again. The mini-plug is fucking tiny, you need a person with some seriously good soldering skills to pull this off. Just hire Chris Church to do it, he has more experience than anyone doing this mod. In fact the guy that did mine, asked why I just didn't send it to Church. Why? Because I was impatient and wanted it done right then!
LOL
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To be perfectly honest with you... I have never tested it lol... I should since I am the one that came up with the mod in the first place :) I am going to look into it.
you should....that way you can practice what you preach ;) :P
keep up the good work chris!
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Hi everyone,
I ve a problem saturday night recording a show with my spcmc4u + 3wire bbox(third one of this page http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,72994.0.html). The show was not too loud in a big concert hall (10000 people).
I used a line in input and a 20/30 manuel volume on the MD.
When i transfert the MD on my pc, the signal is very small...
So here is my question :
With the 3-wire bbox, is it better to put the bbox box in mic in to upper the signal?i know that it depend on the volume of the show, but generally what people do?
And what are the risk of distorsion in mic in?
Thanks a lot
Bye
Up ???
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Hi everyone,
I ve a problem saturday night recording a show with my spcmc4u + 3wire bbox(third one of this page http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,72994.0.html). The show was not too loud in a big concert hall (10000 people).
I used a line in input and a 20/30 manuel volume on the MD.
When i transfert the MD on my pc, the signal is very small...
So here is my question :
With the 3-wire bbox, is it better to put the bbox box in mic in to upper the signal?i know that it depend on the volume of the show, but generally what people do?
And what are the risk of distorsion in mic in?
Thanks a lot
Bye
Up ???
Never use the mic input unless the show is very quiet. If its not you will get distortion with an MD. Always use the line input.
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Thanks. Somebody had tried this?
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Thanks. Somebody had tried this?
Yes lots of people have tried this if its an acoustic show you can use the mic input but if its not and things are amplified with a PA system its not recommended.
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Hi everyone,
I ve a problem saturday night recording a show with my spcmc4u + 3wire bbox(third one of this page http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,72994.0.html). The show was not too loud in a big concert hall (10000 people).
I used a line in input and a 20/30 manuel volume on the MD.
When i transfert the MD on my pc, the signal is very small...
So here is my question :
With the 3-wire bbox, is it better to put the bbox box in mic in to upper the signal?i know that it depend on the volume of the show, but generally what people do?
And what are the risk of distorsion in mic in?
Thanks a lot
Bye
Up ???
Never use the mic input unless the show is very quiet. If its not you will get distortion with an MD. Always use the line input.
I've used mic input on many amplified shows without a problem. Remember this is the newer HiMD, the "LOW SENS" setting, and you can adjust input on the fly. No problems with quiet to moderately loud PA shows. Only really loud ones need line input.
Richard
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Thanks a lot Richard, i ll try this
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I'd like my AT853's modded as well. I can't seem to reach chris (pm's get rejected?) so anybody got a hint? I'm not too good at soldering so I think it would be better so hire someone who can get the job done. Chris, if you're reading this, could I use your service as well?
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@Richard...moderately loud shows on mic-input...
You can record really loud amplified rock shows on mic-in at low-sens setting with a low-profile sony ecm-719 mic, I did this in the past before I bought my MM-HLSC-1 mic and it always gave me good results.
The Sony ecm-719 picks up considerably less input compared to SP´s or MM´s mics.
It would be a dream to use my MM-HLSC-1 on mic-in at any show ;)..a dream....without the additional hassle of a battery box.... though I got used to it since I switched to better mics.
The SPL shouldn´t be the problem cause my mics have 138dB at 5V, so maybe 135dB at 2-3V using a RH1 HI-MD recorder or an iriver. The internal RH1 preamp is a different story at high SPL.
Maybe i give it a try tomorrow at a small club amplified show.
I don´t care if this recording will sound distorted, maybe I´m lucky ;).
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I was just gifted an (old) SP-CMC-4 and SP-BPF-2 with level controls, and thought I'd bump this.
To be perfectly honest with you... I have never tested it lol... I should since I am the one that came up with the mod in the first place :) I am going to look into it. What you say makes perfect sense, I have a pair of AT mics here I will try the single resistor. If it works great. As far as the value differences I have a very accurate Ohm meter that is 6 digits I can match the resistors so they are exactly the same. But if this mod can be done with one resistor it would make life allot better for everyone doing my mod, I see your point you are very smart :) I guess I just had it in my head two mics two resistors lol.. I will test this sometime this week and get back to you.
Did you ever try this and figure things out one way or another?
Also, from what I can see (just unscrewed the plug cover, haven't gone ripping anything apart yet), the wires in the SP-CMC-4 cable are both red. Is there an easy way to determine which wire is which?
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AT and yours are both three wire. Red is the drain of the FET, Yellow is the source of the FET and shield is ground (of the capsule). The other end of the capsule goes to the gate of the FET. For two wire you short yellow and ground (at the 3.5mm stereo plug, usually).
Also, from what I can see (just unscrewed the plug cover, haven't gone ripping anything apart yet), the wires in the SP-CMC-4 cable are both red. Is there an easy way to determine which wire is which?
Looking again, it appears that the pairs of red wires are soldered together (i.e., both from the left capsule soldered together, both from the right capsule soldered together). Is it safe to assume, then, that yellow and ground from the mic are shorted together at the mic end, and that this can't be modified with a new plug?
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AT and yours are both three wire. Red is the drain of the FET, Yellow is the source of the FET and shield is ground (of the capsule). The other end of the capsule goes to the gate of the FET. For two wire you short yellow and ground (at the 3.5mm stereo plug, usually).
Also, from what I can see (just unscrewed the plug cover, haven't gone ripping anything apart yet), the wires in the SP-CMC-4 cable are both red. Is there an easy way to determine which wire is which?
Looking again, it appears that the pairs of red wires are soldered together (i.e., both from the left capsule soldered together, both from the right capsule soldered together). Is it safe to assume, then, that yellow and ground from the mic are shorted together at the mic end, and that this can't be modified with a new plug?
Put a 4.7k resistor between the Yellow wire and ground. Use a 1% surface mount resistor.
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Put a 4.7k resistor between the Yellow wire and ground. Use a 1% surface mount resistor.
Thanks Chris. I was going to post that I guess the yellow wires just can't be seen in the plug now (I haven't pulled everything apart yet), but forgot to.
That said, I do have two questions:
1) Upthread there was discussion about using a single resistor instead of 2. You were going to try it out. Did you ever try it? Did it work?
2) Anything particular for a 4.7k 1% resistor? Am I correct in guessing that any power rating would be fine? It looks like Digi-Key has 125 different 4.7k 1% surface mount resistors to choose from.
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Put a 4.7k resistor between the Yellow wire and ground. Use a 1% surface mount resistor.
Thanks Chris. I was going to post that I guess the yellow wires just can't be seen in the plug now (I haven't pulled everything apart yet), but forgot to.
That said, I do have two questions:
1) Upthread there was discussion about using a single resistor instead of 2. You were going to try it out. Did you ever try it? Did it work?
2) Anything particular for a 4.7k 1% resistor? Am I correct in guessing that any power rating would be fine? It looks like Digi-Key has 125 different 4.7k 1% surface mount resistors to choose from.
You can not use a single resistor. Each mic needs its own. You want a metal film resistor 1/8 watt is fine.
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I recently bought a set of these mics and will be giving them their first run out soon at a show. I've had the low sensitivity mod done to them, but I was wondering if anyone whos used these regularly has any advice on using bass roll off or not with them. I'll be taping rock concerts in arenas and theatres.
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I would not run a bass roll off with these mics under any circumstance
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I recently bought a set of these mics and will be giving them their first run out soon at a show. I've had the low sensitivity mod done to them, but I was wondering if anyone whos used these regularly has any advice on using bass roll off or not with them. I'll be taping rock concerts in arenas and theatres.
Roll it off in post