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Author Topic: Do I get the Schoeps MK4, MK41's or MK5?  (Read 30258 times)

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Offline H₂O

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Re: Do I get the Schoeps MK4, MK41's or MK5?
« Reply #45 on: July 12, 2013, 01:41:24 PM »
The original windscreens from Schoeps (i.e. B5's) are more then enough in gental breezes - Unless you are very tall and the mics are way above the crowd the crowd will help with the wind as well.
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Offline microburst

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Re: Do I get the Schoeps MK4, MK41's or MK5?
« Reply #46 on: July 12, 2013, 02:33:16 PM »
FWIW, I've had a pair of mk41's for about 4 months or so now and have only used them once and have been to quite a number of shows in that period.  More often that not the cardioid (mk5 in my case) is the way to go. 

Offline Jonas Karlsson

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Re: Do I get the Schoeps MK4, MK41's or MK5?
« Reply #47 on: July 12, 2013, 06:45:40 PM »
FWIW, I've had a pair of mk41's for about 4 months or so now and have only used them once and have been to quite a number of shows in that period.  More often that not the cardioid (mk5 in my case) is the way to go.

By curiousity: have you used the omni or cardioid-settings at these shows? Small gigs or bigger shows?

/Jonas

Offline bluntforcetrauma

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Re: Do I get the Schoeps MK4, MK41's or MK5?
« Reply #48 on: July 12, 2013, 08:35:28 PM »
FWIW, I've had a pair of mk41's for about 4 months or so now and have only used them once and have been to quite a number of shows in that period.  More often that not the cardioid (mk5 in my case) is the way to go.

By curiousity: have you used the omni or cardioid-settings at these shows? Small gigs or bigger shows?

/Jonas

As a stealther I run ccm41, DPA 4023 and DPA 4061 simultaneoulsy, albeit 2 different mic companies but 3 different patterns.  The sound is different from each mic in addition you also get to hear exactly what you pick up when you are at the show, so it kinda gives me an idea when i am at a show and i take in my surroundings as i like to be close to the stage-  then when i listen to the recordings I can get a very good feel of what is picked up and what is not. AS I use more rigs for a single outing it then becomes hard to back down at times as i dont want to end up regreting a situation where a certain pickup pattern would have worked better.  ON occasion, if you get that one loud fan/clapper or yeller along with where that fan is making the sound from, I wont pick him up on every rig I am running. Furthermore, you may know you have good seats, but you dont know if the crowd around you is going to make a lot of noise. i guess this is my .4 cents worth as i see i already commented on this topic.
There is a distinct difference between the DPA and Schoeps. Since taping from the same location, i feel especially on this last run of acoustic shows that the Schoeps tends to bring out the vocal and guitar frequency out better than the DPA cards.  So as i compare say DPA 4023 from a schoeps ccm41 the DPA kinda sounds like its recorded in a hat, whereas the schoeps sound a bit upfront putting the vocals and guitar frequency at least to my ears - in front of the lower frequencies. In additon the DPA 4061 omnis give the best repoduction of the music but they also pick up everything else around you- making for the least pleasurable to listen to. But hopefully in the end I have 3 pulls for every show that i can make a nice matrix.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 08:46:50 PM by bluntforcetrauma »

Offline Datfly

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Re: Do I get the Schoeps MK4, MK41's or MK5?
« Reply #49 on: July 12, 2013, 09:02:37 PM »
FWIW, I've had a pair of mk41's for about 4 months or so now and have only used them once and have been to quite a number of shows in that period.  More often that not the cardioid (mk5 in my case) is the way to go.

I also have the MK5's so I can have a card or omni if needed but I also have a pair of MK41's if needed. I use the MK5's 99% of the time as I like you only stealth and as close to the stacks as I can.
The MK41's when used gave stellar results as well so this is the ultimate Schoeps combo for me. omnis-cards-hypers in two sets.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Do I get the Schoeps MK4 or MK41's?
« Reply #50 on: July 12, 2013, 09:43:30 PM »
note to self:
(1) Supercardioids are a variant of a hypercardioid (and often not distinguished from them) but usually reckoned to reject sound best at 150°.  They have an exaggerated version of the cardioid pattern with greater emphasis on picking up sound directly in front.
(2) Subcardioids or wide cardioids are versions of hypocardioid (less than cardioid) patterns - slightly more directional than an omni but no more than that. They are most easily distinguished by their rear sensitivity - anything from 2-18 dB lower compared to their front sensitivity.
^^
My bold emphasis.

Picking nits, because everything builds on basic concepts and that’s were nitpicky details in definitions count most, trickling down to everything else, or working up the food chain, depending on your perspective.  Apologies for derailing with technical applied theory stuff-

All patterns are differentiated by the specific aspects of their sensitivity to sound arriving from the rear and sides (the far off-axis regions), not differences in sensitivity to sounds arriving from the front. Supercards can also have 18dB lower rearward sensitivity compared to their on-axis response.

*Trick question: Using any of the ‘standard’ stereo mic setups (ORTF, DIN, DIN-A, NOS), and keeping the same config but just switching between capsules, which provides more rejection to the rear as well as the sides: cardioids or supercardioids?

The answer is supercardioids.  Surprised?


I find it helpful to consider a relatively wide window of on-axis sensitivity (what you've referred to above as "emphasis on picking up sound directly in front") of all patterns as being effectively equal.  The conceptual difference between various patterns (at least in their directional sensitivity, there are other differences that influence the sound of any specific microphone) is then determined primarily by how it handles sounds arriving from well away from the front- meaning the far sides, far above and below, and from the rear.  Thinking about it that was is helpful because the sensitivity of first order patterns really doesn’t fall off very quickly until significantly off-axis. The on-axis sensitivity is, in a practical sense, pretty much unchanged within a 90 degree forward facing 'acceptance angle' window for any pickup pattern.

The significant difference in directional sensitivity between patterns is the nature of pickup outside of that forward facing 90 degree window.  It’s the nature of the back and sides that effectively define the sensitivity pattern, not the front part.
 
What then becomes important is how to differentiate those differences in back and side sensitivity and to determine which of those aspects are most important.

In practical usage in a stereo configuration, usually the most important aspect is not if there are rear lobes and where the lobes and nulls point, but the general difference between sensitivity to sound arriving from all directions as a whole compared to the sensitivity to sound arriving on the forward facing axis.  In other words, thinking more in terms of ‘front’ verses ‘everywhere else’, rather than 'rejecting' specific directions.  That’s why I posted the trick question above.  It strikes me as conceptually analogous to what is perhaps the most important acoustic phenomenon in recording to my mind- the direct/reverberant ratio.

By that measure, a hypercardioid is the most directional first order microphone pattern because it offers the least sensitivity as a whole outside of  that ~90 degree wide forward facing window common to all patterns.  The most important aspect of the mk41 compared to other patternsis it’s increased directionality in a general sense and its well behaved off-axis response, rather than lobes and null angles.  Those things matter, but not nearly as much.

Of course none of that helps choose between mk4, mk41 and mk5.  :P

*More later on this in a separate thread since I frequency see comments by tapers with misunderstandings or fears about the ‘rear lobes’ of supercards used in stereo arrangements.

« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 09:51:57 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline johnw

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Re: Do I get the Schoeps MK4 or MK41's?
« Reply #51 on: July 12, 2013, 11:23:33 PM »

I have these:

http://www.schoeps.de/en/products/b5d

They have a plastic frame built inside which keeps a clear void area around the mic (and they're recommended by Schoeps for the 4V whereas the foam only B5 is not). 

If you're in a situation where you may have pressure against the windscreen I'd definitely use the B5D to ensure that void area remains around the capsule.

My SP's do have a foam only screen that slips over touching the capsule but it is a much lighter foam than what the B5D uses and does not cut the wind nearly as well (that may be why the SP ones can actually work OK while touching the mic). 

The B5D are very heavy duty and Schoeps says there is no impact on the sound.  I've not needed dead rats yet when using them.

Actually the B5D will impact the sound of your 4Vs. In fact Schoeps used to recommend against using them with side address caps. Interestingly they now say this is ok but will attenuate the high frequency of the 4V.

From the link you posted "Although it has not been designed for that purpose, it is possible to use it on the MK 4V, MK 41V or MK 4VXS microphone capsules and the corresponding CCM Compact Condenser Microphones. The microphone’s slight inherent high-frequency emphasis is then compensated for."

Here is what the product description used to say "The microphone must be inserted up to the stop. The B 5 D cannot be used with side-address transducers such as MK 4 V, MK 41 V, MK 6, or MK 8 capsules, or with CCM 4 V, or CCM 41 V, or CCM 8."

I'm going to start a new thread in hopes DSatz can clear this up.
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Offline Jonas Karlsson

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Re: Do I get the Schoeps MK4, MK41's or MK5?
« Reply #52 on: July 13, 2013, 01:56:43 PM »
Actually I'd like a capsule - switchable between MK5 (omni and card) and MK41 - but since I mostly record from a good spot (by that I mean stacktaping), and I enjoy the sound from my CA14 omni (clappers can be reduced, even screamers!) maybe the MK5 is the way to go. Can't be much bigger capsule than the MK4 and fully stealthy?

Is there any special reason many people that use MK4 or MK41record DFC by the way???

Haven't really been convinced the MK41 is the way to go when recording hard rock/Metal-shows that I go to...

/Jonas
« Last Edit: July 13, 2013, 02:13:46 PM by jontebus »

Offline blg

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Re: Do I get the Schoeps MK4, MK41's or MK5?
« Reply #53 on: July 13, 2013, 02:22:40 PM »
Actually I'd like a capsule - switchable between MK5 (omni and card) and MK41 - but since I mostly record from a good spot (by that I mean stacktaping), and I enjoy the sound from my CA14 omni (clappers can be reduced, even screamers!) maybe the MK5 is the way to go. Can't be much bigger capsule than the MK4 and fully stealthy?

Is there any special reason many people that use MK4 or MK41record DFC by the way???

Haven't really been convinced the MK41 is the way to go when recording hard rock/Metal-shows that I go to...

/Jonas

If you have questions about running MK5s stealth, you should PM Datfly. He runs both MK5s and MK41s.  I think one reason not as many people run 5s, is the cost. New, i believe they go for around $3200 for a pair. 

If you are going to run dead center towards the back of a room, I'd think MK41s would be pretty ideal.
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Offline microburst

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Re: Do I get the Schoeps MK4, MK41's or MK5?
« Reply #54 on: July 13, 2013, 02:27:15 PM »
By curiousity: have you used the omni or cardioid-settings at these shows? Small gigs or bigger shows?

/Jonas

I've only used the omni setting of the mk5 a handful of times - several times as the mid in an on stage m/s array with an mk8, and a few times on stage split at various distances.  Have yet to run the omnis off a PA as I've only had the mk5 pair since October 2012 which I got to replace a pair of mk4's.  FWIW the high frequency bump of the mk5 vs. the mk4 is pleasing to my ears.  The shows I record are typically smaller venues of a couple hundred people.  I don't attend shows in big theatres, hockey arenas and amphitheaters too often.

You later asked about the size of the mk5's.  I don't know exactly but they're only slightly larger than the typical schoeps capsules, perhaps a few centimeters.  Fully stealthable though.  I'm strongly in favor of the mk5's over the mk4's though they will cost you quite a bit more, but certainly not nearly as much as buying a pair of mk4 and mk2 or mk2s.   There's a pair of mk5 on German ebay right now here: http://tinyurl.com/ljv8ule with current bit of 312 EU.

Since windscreens were brought up earlier, I use the Schoeps W5D but obviously not stealthy: http://www.schoeps.de/en/products/w5d.  I use them with muppets in extreme winds (i.e., Jam Cruise).  Also use the Shure A81WS (a/k/aBig Ass Shures) sometimes if the W5D and muppets are concurrently in use: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/68646-REG/Shure_A81WS_A81WS_Windscreen_for.html.  For light A/C and other light wind generally indoors I use the Windtech 1300 http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=orderHistory&A=details&Q=&sku=298938&is=REG.  Finally, for m/s I use the Schoeps WMS: http://www.schoeps.de/en/products/wms.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2013, 02:30:13 PM by microburst »

Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: Do I get the Schoeps MK4, MK41's or MK5?
« Reply #55 on: July 13, 2013, 02:40:14 PM »
You later asked about the size of the mk5's.  I don't know exactly but they're only slightly larger than the typical schoeps capsules, perhaps a few centimeters.

Only 0.5 cm (5 mm):  MK4 22mm long, MK5 27mm long.  Of course, that's in addition to the active cable connector.
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Offline Jonas Karlsson

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Re: Do I get the Schoeps MK4, MK41's or MK5?
« Reply #56 on: July 13, 2013, 06:31:37 PM »
FWIW the high frequency bump of the mk5 vs. the mk4 is pleasing to my ears. 

I would like that too. Most of the MK4 + MK41-recordings I've heard have not got the highs I like best. As I said earlier - would like to do as little as possible in post.

Thanks for the reply regarding size of the MK5 and your experiences. The difference in price between MK4/MK41 and MK5 is just a few more months of saving. The one who waits for something good... never waits too long  (as we say in Sweden)  ;D

Will defenitely look up the one's for sale!

/Jonas

Offline edtyre

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Re: Do I get the Schoeps MK4, MK41's or MK5?
« Reply #57 on: July 13, 2013, 09:03:17 PM »

>Right now I use the Church CA14's (omni's and cardioid) and has gotten really great results with both

 Most of the MK4 + MK41-recordings I've heard have not got the highs I like best. As I said earlier - would like to do as little as possible in post.

/Jonas

Why don't you just stick with the Church mic's if the Schoeps sound isn't to your liking.

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Re: Do I get the Schoeps MK4, MK41's or MK5?
« Reply #58 on: July 13, 2013, 11:19:45 PM »
^ ...and just to lend support to that question, don't forget that the sound you get at a show is going to be more about location than it is the mics.  To drive that point home, I had a glitch in a recording that resulted in a minute or two drop out on my MK4 source.  Bean had a CA-14 run in the exact same location, which was the best spot in the house.  I faded his source into mine to fill in the missing part and you absolutely cannot tell where I mixed in the CA-14 source.  I'm not going to say don't buy Schoeps, they're a great product, but just pointing out that you said you can get to the sweet spot for most of your shows, so don't expect 20X the improvement in sound just because your mics cost that much more than the CA-14. 

Offline Jonas Karlsson

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Re: Do I get the Schoeps MK4, MK41's or MK5?
« Reply #59 on: July 14, 2013, 05:59:53 AM »

>Right now I use the Church CA14's (omni's and cardioid) and has gotten really great results with both

 Most of the MK4 + MK41-recordings I've heard have not got the highs I like best. As I said earlier - would like to do as little as possible in post.

/Jonas

Why don't you just stick with the Church mic's if the Schoeps sound isn't to your liking.

Because the CA14's obviously need even more work in post. My setup, that isn't visual even in daylight - needs added highs + mids to sound the way my ears like it at 95% of the shows I record. Not very strange when they're not on a 10ft stand of course!

Overall I like the fullness of the sound the Schoeps produce when they're at their best, also I hear the Schoeps sound more detailed. CA 11 & CA14 sounded a lot better than I expected compared to my old Sonic Studios DSM-6EL (which obviously was a kind of omni mic). I wanted a microphone that was coping with most type of venues, the Sonics just didn't do it at bigger arenas + festivals (and they were not very stealthy). In Sweden we also have the stupid 100dB-law I've written about before, and the crowds often sound louder than the music - especially at the smaller shows.

I'm defenitely NOT expecting a 20X improvement when using the Schoeps! I even think some of the swedish tapers will actually have the same shows recorded that I do, with better sounding recordings than I do! I've always said that you need a LOT of luck recording. At 1 show out of 10 you will get the perfect spot, with no screamers, clappers and the good PA-sound. The others you will get at least one of these 3. It's my 21 years of going to shows and record them that will lead me to a good spot and knowing when to move before the show starts if a gang of girls show up, or the 3 drunk friends suddenly move closer to you making the spot you're at unusable. In the future I want to be more in the back - getting the full sound from the floor with none of these 3 things mentioned before. CA14 to my ears just don't cut it with that long distance from the speakers. But that's just my opinion. You tapers in the U.S. record a lot of shows from seats pretty way back sometimes and using the Schoeps your recording sound sweeter than I would ever get using my current setup.

Enough said - the CA14's will still be in my arsenal of choice - I just feel I need to try the Schoeps out. If it doesn't work - I'll have a full rig for sale which haven't really lost any value :) perhaps it works better on the other side of the globe (with a crowd not moving around and sounds over 100dB) but who knows if I don't try???

/Jonas

 

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