Topic: Stealth recording ... cards or omnis?

[Ach3r0n]

I came upon an old post where someone raised this question and suggested omnis would be better if you planned on moving around and such.  I was wondering what the current thoughts are on it.  If I were to go stealth with the primary purpose being to enjoy the show (might be moving around , etc), should I still go with cards or would omnis be better?  Thanks!

[achalsey]

Definitely omnis if you're moving around, though either way its not going to come out particularly good unless you're moving during parts you don't really care about listening to later.

[Ach3r0n]

Well I won't intentionally be moving around much, but the show is general admission, standing room only and I will be up front.  It is also outdoors.  At the moment, I'm mainly trying to plan for this show and then based on how it goes will figure out where to go in the future.

[Belexes]

- Outdoors
- Up front

Omnis would be my choice.

[deadheadcorey]

- Outdoors
- Up front

Omnis would be my choice.

I second this.

If ya where inside I would go with cards every time....

[aaronji]

If ya where inside I would go with cards every time....

Why?  There are definitely situations (depending on type of music, crowd, venue, location, etc.) where omnis sound great indoors...

[Belexes]

Omnis indoors are fine when all the variables are perfect. Quiet crowd around you, mics are in the 'sweet spot' in the room, and the room itself has excellent acoustics.  I rarely get into that situation when I tape indoors, so I opt most of the time for cardioids. 

[sparkey]

hypers all the way

[F.O.Bean]

hypers all the way

[Cheesecadet]

I use omnis most all the time whether I am indoors or outdoors.  If you are in close proximity to the stage they sound fantastic.  I usually will be about 15 - 30 feet from stage and those recordings have smoked my cards from the same distance every time.  The added bonus of not standing like a mic stand is a plus too.

I would use cards or hypers if I was far from stage though...anything beyond 40 feet or so.  YMMV

[aaronji]

It's sort of the gospel here that omnis will only sound good in a near-perfect setting ("Omnis indoors are fine when all the variables are perfect. Quiet crowd around you, mics are in the 'sweet spot' in the room, and the room itself has excellent acoustics," as Belexes put it).  In my experience, though, omnis can sound excellent in less than ideal settings too.  One important factor, as Cheesecadet said, is proximity.  In rooms with poor acoustics, for example, getting closer increases the ratio of direct to reverberant sound and makes the room much less of a factor (boundary mounting can also be useful in that respect).  Chatter is also often minimized as an issue close-up, at least for fairly loud shows.   

For much of the music I record (mostly jazz), the low-end isn't hyped like at most rock shows and the (generally better) low-end response of omnis is a real plus.  By contrast, my card jazz recordings have often sounded a little thin bass-wise.

Omnis have their plusses and their minuses.  So do the other polar patterns.  Like I wrote a few posts up, a lot depends on "type of music, crowd, venue, location, etc."  Crowd and venue are usually bigger issues at rock shows than at jazz or classical concerts.  Bottom line: there are no one-size-fits-all answers to this question.  My two cents, YMMV, and all that good stuff...

[Belexes]

Chatter is also often minimized as an issue close-up, at least for fairly loud shows.

That's debatable. Many shows I attend (rock), people are screaming at each other right next to the mains.  Crowd is one variable you may not be able to know until you get to your seat.  That's why I opt for cards if I am stuck to a seat.  Within the last few years I have had audience members bring in their own harmonica's and cowbells. Crazy!?

[Gutbucket]

It's sort of the gospel here that omnis will only sound good in a near-perfect setting ("Omnis indoors are fine when all the variables are perfect. Quiet crowd around you, mics are in the 'sweet spot' in the room, and the room itself has excellent acoustics," as Belexes put it).  In my experience, though, omnis can sound excellent in less than ideal settings too.  One important factor, as Cheesecadet said, is proximity.  In rooms with poor acoustics, for example, getting closer increases the ratio of direct to reverberant sound and makes the room much less of a factor (boundary mounting can also be useful in that respect).  Chatter is also often minimized as an issue close-up, at least for fairly loud shows.   

For much of the music I record (mostly jazz), the low-end isn't hyped like at most rock shows and the (generally better) low-end response of omnis is a real plus.  By contrast, my card jazz recordings have often sounded a little thin bass-wise.

Omnis have their plusses and their minuses.  So do the other polar patterns.  Like I wrote a few posts up, a lot depends on "type of music, crowd, venue, location, etc."  Crowd and venue are usually bigger issues at rock shows than at jazz or classical concerts.  Bottom line: there are no one-size-fits-all answers to this question.  My two cents, YMMV, and all that good stuff...

::thumbs up::

[aaronji]

Chatter is also often minimized as an issue close-up, at least for fairly loud shows.

That's debatable. Many shows I attend (rock), people are screaming at each other right next to the mains.  Crowd is one variable you may not be able to know until you get to your seat.  That's why I opt for cards if I am stuck to a seat.  Within the last few years I have had audience members bring in their own harmonica's and cowbells. Crazy!?

Really, it's not debatable.  I mean, it's physics.  Given a noise source (chatterer) at an arbitrary level and distance and an arbitrary dBSPL from the music, there are two ways to increase the ratio between the music and the noise.  You can either move your mics further away from the noise or increase the dbSPL from the music (or both).  Since you are unlikely to convince the engineer to crank it up so that you can drown out the noise at your location, the way to increase the dBSPL is to move closer to the source.  As sound pressure is proportional to the inverse of distance (1/r), halving the distance between your mics and the source will double the sound pressure, which will increase the ratio between music and noise.  As that ratio increases, the noise will become increasingly less audible.

It's not like this will eliminate chatter in all situations, but it will certainly help to contain it in some...

And cards are not immune to audience noise either.  Those guys screaming in front of the mains?  If it's audible, and you're watching it while recording with cards, they are in front of you, probably more or less on axis, and cards are picking them up just as well as omnis.  Some jerk-off with a cowbell?  Well, not much you can do about that.  Not without security getting involved anyway...

[MJ]

I know it is not easy but you might be able to use a two pair of mics(cards and omnis) even if in steXXth situation….. Up front at the outdoor show, omnis would be my choice but you never know what kind of crowd you would be stuck with.

[earmonger]

I have to say, I am a big fan of omnis. I generally listen through headphones, and there is something about cards that makes it feel artificial--like there is nothing behind you, like you are in a two-dimensional instead of three-dimensional space. Obviously if someone is gabbing away loudly behind me, I wish I was using cards, but if it happens I try to move. Or, of course, have them assassinated by my fulltime Ninja associate.

[DSatz]

All other things being equal--which they're not, and I'll get to that in a moment--if you want to record in stereo but for whatever reason you can't space the two microphones or microphone capsules more than a few inches apart, then directional microphones or a unitary "stereo microphone" would normally be the fairly obvious choice.

However, stealth recording may require you to keep the microphones or capsules very close to your body--and doing so fundamentally changes the way a microphone picks up sound since it obstructs all high- and upper-mid-frequency sound waves for least one major direction of arrival. In those conditions an omni is no longer omni and a cardioid is no longer cardioid, so any normal discussion of preferred patterns and setups no longer really applies; it's a separate realm.

One thing that might matter a lot is that pressure transducers (= typical single-pattern, single-diaphragm omni condensers) are FAR more resistant to handling noise or any other form of solid-borne sound than pressure-gradient transducers (= all directional microphones, as well as most switchable-pattern microphones even in their omni setting). I mean there could be a 20 dB difference in noise pickup. Same thing with wind noise, if that's a potential issue.

But if you're going to use omnis close to one another, you'll need some sort of acoustically opaque (dense) object between them (which could be your head or some other bodily structure of similar or larger size). Otherwise you'll be making a nearly mono recording. And even when microphones are classed as "omnidirectional," if they're of the usual size (e.g. 3/4" diameter) or larger, then they are directional at high frequencies, and should be aimed outward from center if they're being used within (say) a foot or two of each other for stereo recording.

--best regards

[rastasean]

So someone's glasses could work but if its spaced further, it would be better. Is that a good way of recording it?

[Scooter123]

I always do cards, unless...

--I'm at stage lip
--And its a quiet crowd

Which is almost never so the DPAs go un-used. 

[adrianf74]

I'm with Belexes on this one (as usual).  Omnis are better in your circumstance since you're up close, however, as others have mentioned the crowds can be rather mixed as you get up close so standing back and using cards will usually get you a better recording.  I generally prefer to stand a bit further back to get better clarity/separation in my recordings so I usually run the cards.

[hi and lo]

MK5's... enough said

[yates7592]

As everyone has said, there are pro's and con's re both types of mic, but in my experience, the most faithful reproduction of what i heard in the show has always come from good omni's, in an ideal world they will nearly always give you the best results.....

[Gutbucket]

As everyone has said, there are pro's and con's re both types of mic, but in my experience, the most faithful reproduction of what i heard in the show has always come from good omni's, in an ideal world they will nearly always give you the best results.....

I lean this way.  Though I primarily record in situations where I can sort of stack the deck in my favor to get the best results with them.  One big part of that is extending the idea described above by DSatz of using baffling to change a microphone's polar pattern, and by extention, the directional pattern of a combined multi-microphone array.  One unique twist (as far as I'm aware) is that I use four omnis, each baffled to favor a different direction, which gives me much of what I would like from directional mics, while retaining the sound and usage characteristics I prefer with omnis.  Doing that gives me additional control over the directional aspects of the combined array when mixing to stereo.  It also makes surround recording practical with limited spacing between omni capsules of just 20" at most on the longest axis between mics, and just 8" on the shortest axis.

[F.O.Bean]

MK6's... enough said

[DSatz]

MK 7 ... enough said

(but only kidding ...)

[hi and lo]

lol. I love you guys.... but not as much as I love my 5's ;-)

[landshark]

you'll need some sort of acoustically opaque (dense) object between them (which could be your head

I'd say "dense" certainly describes many of our heads...<grin>