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Offline ChiroVette

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Recording My Own Band & Other Projects
« on: May 05, 2024, 02:36:56 PM »
Hey everyone! I am new here and have a lot of questions, but rather than a wall-of-text post, I will start really simple.

For the past 14 or so years, I have mostly used Zoom units. I have used some of their older audio only recorders, when all I wanted was audio for rehearsals, and I have used several one of their audio + video units for live shows. For me, the Zoom units have always been a mixed bag. Pretty much horrible video and decent audio, particularly for the budget price-point. I still own the H4N, though I haven't used it in years. I started out with an old Q3HD, and currently use a Q8. I have an old Panasonic camcorder, and the video is perfectly acceptable. So What I usually do is record a show or a gig with both the Q8 and the camcorder, then when I import the files into Sony Vegas, I have to line the audio and video files up perfectly, and I discard the camcorder's audio and also discard the Q8's video.

Of late, I am trying to decide how to upgrade. I'm not at all worried about the video, since I just want it to be halfway "decent", but I am definitely open to audio upgrades.

I was referred to this forum by a very good friend, who is a really awesome taper. I initially asked his advice, and I think he is so far over my head as an audiophile, he has me spending thousands of dollars, if he has his way lol. As incredible as this guy is, I really feel like his advice may be geared to someone far more sophisticated than me. Maybe I am wrong, and hopefully you guys can help.

What I want is a step or two up in audio quality from the Q8. If he has his way, I would buy the Sound Stage MixPre6 and a pair of discontinued Nakamichi CM-300  and a pair of CP-4 Shotgun capsules. With all of the mounting, batteries, wiring, and other accoutrements. He is also talking about having me modify these mics for phantom power. He also admonishes me to "stay away from Zoom products all together", and cites that he knows a lot of people who went from Zoom to MixPre.

It really feels to me that maybe the advice he is giving me is meant for...um, someone who isn't me? Someone a lot more nuanced and sophisticated, like a competent professional taper, who tapes hundreds of shows a year? Or am I getting this wrong?

Offline roffels

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Re: Recording My Own Band & Other Projects
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2024, 08:58:13 AM »
The Naks are some fun mics, and you can pull good tapes with 'em, but I wouldn't even consider those audiophile. And since they're battery operated, a mixpre 6 is way overkill for them.

I'm sure someone here has said it before, but the best gear for you is the gear you'll use. So if you have a good idea of what you want out of recording your band, go with your gut.

You've mentioned you want something a step or two above the Q8 - what does that mean to you? I think for a lot of tapers, the first step they take from integrated mics is to use external mics. For me, that was the Nakamichi cm-300s, but those fell out of favor with me fairly quickly as I pursued better sound.

Zoom gear can be good, but maybe your friend just meant in regards to using Zoom-brand mics?

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Recording My Own Band & Other Projects
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2024, 09:47:11 AM »
OK
1] It is SOUND DEVICES brand for the Mix pre units.
1A] They come in a few channel arrangements, the mix pre 3, 6, and 10. It sounds like your friend is seeing you have a Q8 (I'm assuming 8 channels without looking) and so just matching you up with a similar amount of channels. A used MIx Pre 6 is not too expensive, however, it does have some quirks which make it have a learning curve for use in terms of its;' 32 bit float design

2] If you are looking for external mics in the range of the Naks, which are OK mics for AUD recording, esp with the standard internal batteries. They can be modded for p48, but you might as well get mics which are already phantom powerable. As most here would tell you, listen to a bunch of shows with certain mics you are interested in and you can tell what your ears prefer. As you can see from my sig line, I am an AKG guy. Those are def not budget, but also not in the upper echelon of pricing, especially since they are out of business. A lot of guys here use AT as an entry mic.

3] Tascam and marantz both make bitbuckets which are slightly easier to learn and can be had used for under $500. I have a Tascam DR-680 which is a great low price option for multi-channel. To be fair, their stock pre-amps are not as good quality as the SD pre amps.
3a] which may be another reason your friend rec'd the MIx-pre. At least with those, you can get "professional" quality mic pre-amps and not require external pre-amps to do your recording. It sounds like you do not wish to use external pre-amps (probably wise in your case) which, again, may have been the reasoning your friend used.

4] From your friends' quote: "stay away from Zoom products all together", A lot of folks do not realize the H series is much different from the F series. I do not use them, from my research I have noticed more serious tapers using the F series vs the H series recorders. I'm sure others who use them will offer up  their experiences.

All in all, he is not trying to get you to go super high end. Naks and Mix pre's are middle class for most tapers. Perfectly acceptable and in many cases, the mix pre seems to be ubiquitous among tapers.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2024, 02:16:15 PM by rocksuitcase »
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Offline Rairun

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Re: Recording My Own Band & Other Projects
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2024, 11:13:19 AM »
What type of music do you play? I can see the Zoom H4n being an issue if your band is very quiet, but unless what is bothering you is pre-amp self-noise (which almost surely isn't the case if you're playing loud, amplified music), I wouldn't bother replacing the H4n until you try it with external mics first. If you're unhappy, then you can start thinking about a recorder with better pre-amps.

Not sure what to recommend you in terms of mics because I basically just picked up a pair of Church Audio cardioid mics and started taping. The difference between CA mics and the Zoom internal mics is pretty big, and they're pretty cheap. I'm sure there are equivalent or better mics that people can recommend you without breaking the bank.

But most of all, if you want your recordings to sound better, you need to start learning where to place those mics. You can't expect to just put them down anywhere and end up with a good recording.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2024, 11:19:55 AM by Rairun »
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Offline fanofjam

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Re: Recording My Own Band & Other Projects
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2024, 12:41:46 PM »
IMO your friend is doing you a bit of a disservice insisting on the mixpre6 when you already have adequate recording capabilities with your Zoom H4N.  A new MixPre6 is over $1000, which IMO would be better spent on higher quality mics than a defunct pair of Nak 300 that needs a P48 mod.  Yeah, the mixpre series has better internal preamps than the H4n, but again IMHO you'll get a better overall end sound with higher end mics...say a pair of used Neumann km184 (between $1,000 and $1200 a pair used on ebay), than the NAKs into a mixpre. 

Or better yet, spend $200 and get a used Zoom F3 and $300 on a pair of Line Audio CM3 or CM4. 

I personally think that the tiny Zoom F3 internal preamps sound better than the Mixpre6's (I own both a mixpre3 and F3).  And 32-bit float recording format is definitely going to be good for you, since it's basically 'set-it-and-forget it'.  You don't want to be worrying about the possibility of checking levels for peaking in the middle of a show if your FOH guy ends up jacking the sound levels alot half-way through your set (in case you're thinking about a used mixpre unit that doesn't have 32-bit float).

As far as mics, I'm a huge fan of the KM184 in the $1000 range, but I don't think there's better bang for buck than Line Audio CM4 (cardioid) or OM1 (omni).  For around $300 shipped for a pair these mics also sound better IMHO that the Nak300's.  The CM3/CM4 also hold their own against KM184.  Line Audio CM3 were the predecessor to the CM4 if you can find those.  There are CM3 or CM4 > F3 recordings all over Live Music Archive if you want to find something to sample.

Don't get me wrong, I think the NAK300 are great mics, but I wouldn't bother with shotguns (big and unwieldy and it's a PITA dealing with the powering situation), so I feel there are better options out there that sound better.

So, if it was my money, I'd buy Line Audio CM4 > Zoom F3 would cost between $500 and $600 and then use my existing Zoom H4n to record the soundboard.  Then matrix those two together and I guarantee that you'll have a fantastic sounding live recording of your band.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2024, 12:54:15 PM by fanofjam »

Offline raynman

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Re: Recording My Own Band & Other Projects
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2024, 12:53:17 PM »
A lot to unpack here

Please tell us more about what you want to record. What kind of music does your band play?  Is it acoustic or softer layered music or are you rockin hard and banging out the beats?😂. What bout your other projects?

Do you intend to record directly from a soundboard/mixing console or will you be using microphones?  Is there a need for multitracking or capturing both the soundboard and microphones?

What is your budget?  Are you adverse to buying used?  Lots of great used gear can be found here in the yard sale.

I don’t use a zoom product but many here do - I am sure they can comment on its suitability once we have a better idea of your use / needs.  The mix pre line is nice but if what you already have is suitable you may be better off adding the money you would spend on a recorder to your microphone budget 😏

Skip the nak 300’s - great in their time but no longer in production. Lots of mics to be chosen from. Application is important here - if recording band rehearsal you have great control over where you place the mics - this is as important as the quality of the mic. Great tapes have been made of shows using lesser quality mics in the sweet spot - location, location, location. 😀. If recording live your ability to set up in sweet spot might be limited and in this case better quality mics, or better, a selection of capsules/mic patterns may be usefull.

Lots of folks here w tons of experience just waiting to help ya out

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Offline jefflester

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Re: Recording My Own Band & Other Projects
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2024, 01:08:07 PM »
IMO your friend is doing you a bit of a disservice insisting on the mixpre6 when you already have adequate recording capabilities with your Zoom H4N.  A new MixPre6 is over $1000, which IMO would be better spent on higher quality mics than a defunct pair of Nak 300 that needs a P48 mod.  Yeah, the mixpre series has better internal preamps than the H4n, but again IMHO you'll get a better overall end sound with higher end mics...say a pair of used Neumann km184 (between $1,000 and $1200 a pair used on ebay), than the NAKs into a mixpre. 

Or better yet, spend $200 and get a used Zoom F3 and $300 on a pair of Line Audio CM3 or CM4. 

I personally think that the tiny Zoom F3 internal preamps sound better than the Mixpre6's (I own both a mixpre3 and F3).  And 32-bit float recording format is definitely going to be good for you, since it's basically 'set-it-and-forget it'.  You don't want to be worrying about the possibility of checking levels for peaking in the middle of a show if your FOH guy ends up jacking the sound levels alot half-way through your set (in case you're thinking about a used mixpre unit that doesn't have 32-bit float).

As far as mics, I'm a huge fan of the KM184 in the $1000 range, but I don't think there's better bang for buck than Line Audio CM4 (cardioid) or OM1 (omni).  For around $300 shipped for a pair these mics also sound better IMHO that the Nak300's.  The CM3/CM4 also hold their own against KM184.  Line Audio CM3 were the predecessor to the CM4 if you can find those.  There are CM3 or CM4 > F3 recordings all over Live Music Archive if you want to find something to sample.

Don't get me wrong, I think the NAK300 are great mics, but I wouldn't bother with shotguns (big and unwieldy and it's a PITA dealing with the powering situation), so I feel there are better options out there that sound better.

So, if it was my money, I'd buy Line Audio CM4 > Zoom F3 would cost between $500 and $600 and then use my existing Zoom H4n to record the soundboard.  Then matrix those two together and I guarantee that you'll have a fantastic sounding live recording of your band.
Pretty much exactly what I was going to say.

But I would also add - yeah what kind of music, how many players, loud/soft, how much is going through the PA vs individual players' amps. Rather than mixing a SBD feed and audience mics in post you could also do a multichannel recorder to get SBD feed + mics + individual instrument channels. Just a pair of mics on stage + a SBD feed can sound much better than a stand with mics 30 feet away. Also what kind of venues, typical bar gigs/backyard parties? Nak300+CP4 shotguns is a poor suggestion for anything less than a many thousand seat venue where the mics are hundreds of feet away.

But if the band isn't too big, you could do multitrack as well. SBD/PA feed would give vocals/drums (?), etc and you can enhance with direct line out or micing of amps. As an example, my current band is an acoustic Grateful Dead band and I record with a Zoom F8. I could pretty easily do just 3/4 channels (pair of mics + mono/stereo SBD feed) but actually tap off direct feeds from amps. This song uses 5 channels: mono PA feed (vocals only), single mic (Line Audio CM4) over drums (which are minimal as can be seen), a direct out of guitar amp, direct out of bass amp, and direct out of keyboard mixer/amp. All 3 cameras are GoPros, a pair of GoPro Hero4 on keys and guitar and GoPro Hero11 on drums. The GoPro Hero4 can be had for $50-70 on eBay. I power them all externally with a USB cable/battery. That would be a pretty inexpensive way to up your video quality if you want, and since you already use Vegas (what I use as as well) you can already do multicam editing.
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« Last Edit: May 06, 2024, 01:32:48 PM by jefflester »
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Offline jefflester

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Re: Recording My Own Band & Other Projects
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2024, 01:14:59 PM »
OK
1] It is SOUND DEVICES brand for the Mix pre units.
1A] They come in a few channel arrangements, the mix pre 3, 6, and 10. It sounds like your friend is seeing you have a Q8 (I'm assuming 8 channels without looking) and so just matching you up with a similar amount of channels. A
Q8 is a video recorder.
https://zoomcorp.com/en/jp/video-recorders/video-recorders/q8-handy-video-recorder/

It has external mic inputs, you could use those instead of getting a whole new recorder. For audio/video the placement of the unit might be compromise of one over the other, are you generally just doing a full stage shot center on from the SBD mix location?
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Offline goodcooker

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Re: Recording My Own Band & Other Projects
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2024, 01:20:28 PM »
I'm a taper and also a musician so I may be able to bridge the gap here. No offense to your taper friend but DO NOT buy a pair of Nakamichi shotgun mics for recording your own live performances. They are several feet long making them impractical and don't sound all that great IMO. If you were taping a concert from the lawn at a big amphitheater, yes, but otherwise no.

Some things to consider are what are your end goals, how much effort you are willing and able to put in and your budget. It also depends on what type of music and how many performers/configuration they are in.

When I record bands I've been in as a performer I usually only record 4 channels - the soundboard mix and a pair of mics at the front of the stage pointed at the band. I've also done full blown multitrack recordings with a transformer isolated splitter but that doesn't sound like what you are after.

Fill us in on some further details and maybe we can point you in the right direction.
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Offline Craig T

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Re: Recording My Own Band & Other Projects
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2024, 03:49:26 PM »
So, if it was my money, I'd buy Line Audio CM4 > Zoom F3 would cost between $500 and $600 and then use my existing Zoom H4n to record the soundboard.  Then matrix those two together and I guarantee that you'll have a fantastic sounding live recording of your band.

I second this
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Offline jefflester

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Re: Recording My Own Band & Other Projects
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2024, 05:37:36 PM »
So What I usually do is record a show or a gig with both the Q8 and the camcorder, then when I import the files into Sony Vegas, I have to line the audio and video files up perfectly, and I discard the camcorder's audio and also discard the Q8's video.
Unless I'm reading the Q8 info incorrectly, it appears you already have a 4-track recorder.
https://zoomcorp.com/en/us/video-recorders/video-recorders/q8-handy-video-recorder/

Since you aren't using the video from the Q8 anyway, I think you could just set the Q8 centered at stage lip (only recording audio) and grab a FOH (Front of House, same signal going to main PA speakers) SBD mix and add that to the Q8. Certainly worth trying without any additional gear other than possibly a long XLR cable. Depending on what sort of PA system is use, the soundboard should be able to send you a signal via the snake (or you need a long XLR), an output from the soundboard that you would then input into one (or both) of the XLRs on the Q8. The idea here is that the X-Y mics on the Q8 are picking up sound from the stage and then the XLR from soundboard is adding stuff amplified through the PA. Sitting on the stage there, the Q8 mics aren't going to pick up vocals very well for instance, but those will be well amplified in the PA signal. The whole intention of the PA is to amplify vocals and instruments on the stage that aren't loud enough. So if the drums or a guitar amp are loud on stage there will be little or none of those in SBD mix, so the Q8 mics and SBD feed complement each other.
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Offline ChiroVette

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Re: Recording My Own Band & Other Projects
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2024, 08:17:51 AM »
Hey, sorry about taking so long to respond, but this forum has some really weird roadblocks to posting. The captcha image is really difficult to read, and I kept getting some of the questions wrong.

Anyway, I will try to answer the questions:

-I play some larger gigs, usually with a Grateful Dead cover band, though I do a lot of other stuff with other projects.

-I generally don't play in extremely loud bands.

-I am not sure how favorable my mixer would be for SB recordings. I have a Mackie DL1608, with an iPad mix surface.

-Thanks for the info on the Nachamichi mics, as you clarified that they are way too huge and long for my purposes.

-For now, at least, I was kind of hoping to do this with ambient recordings. Unless there is an easy way to set up my DL1608 for recording, which may work since the vocals and instruments do go through the board.

-I am not nuanced enough yet (maybe ever?) to start trying to work with both a SB and ambient recording and trying to sew them together.

-I have pretty much always stuck my Zoom units somewhere out of the way, but facing the stage area, and recorded that way. I am not a professional taper, and "optimal room placement" really isn't even on my radar.

-Both the Q8 I currently use and the old Zoom Q3HD I used years ago had decent sound and horrible video.

-I don't want to go high tech or high maintenance with this, at least not at this juncture. Unless it is really really easy to capture sound from the board, I am really just looking to upgrade my ambient recordings a bit. Not looking to get into the thousands at this point, but I don't think my $300.00 Zoom Q8 is quite aurally good enough.

-I have gotten decent results just recording with BOTH a standard camcorder (either a Canon or a Panasonic) and just discarding the video from the Q8 and discarding the audio from the camcorder, and lining the files up. Usually when I stick with just a few songs in a file, I avoid what someone called "drift".

-I just want decent sounding recordings, and I am not sure what the budget is for that. If I really have to spend thousands, I'll just stick with the Q8, which sounds at least decent, and a camcorder, which looks at least decent.

« Last Edit: May 07, 2024, 08:25:56 AM by ChiroVette »

Offline Rairun

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Re: Recording My Own Band & Other Projects
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2024, 02:11:40 PM »
So, if it was my money, I'd buy Line Audio CM4 > Zoom F3 would cost between $500 and $600 and then use my existing Zoom H4n to record the soundboard.  Then matrix those two together and I guarantee that you'll have a fantastic sounding live recording of your band.

I second this

You should just do this, but before buying the Zoom F3, I'd personally try the Line Audio CM4s with your Zoom H4n first. You don't need a new recorder to see the benefits from external mics

 

-I have pretty much always stuck my Zoom units somewhere out of the way, but facing the stage area, and recorded that way. I am not a professional taper, and "optimal room placement" really isn't even on my radar.


It should absolutely be on your radar. I'm not a 'professional taper' by any means, but imho it's pretty pointless to worry this much about gear if you aren't going to worry about placement. This doesn't mean you need to get REALLY into it. For most shows, I just stand left or right of the stage, near a PA stack, pointing one mic to the stack and one to the band, and I get good results. If you have fill monitors facing the audience in the front row (with vocals in the mix), that's a good place to place them too.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Recording My Own Band & Other Projects
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2024, 05:03:32 PM »
-I have pretty much always stuck my Zoom units somewhere out of the way, but facing the stage area, and recorded that way. I am not a professional taper, and "optimal room placement" really isn't even on my radar.

It should absolutely be on your radar. I'm not a 'professional taper' by any means, but imho it's pretty pointless to worry this much about gear if you aren't going to worry about placement. This doesn't mean you need to get REALLY into it.

Positioning the microphones (or recorder with built-in mics) where it sounds best is the most important thing you can do to make better sounding recordings.  If you change nothing else about what you are currently doing, focus on determining where it actually sounds best and place the microphones/recorder there.  Pay as much attention to that as you do to positioning, orienting, zooming and focusing the video camera to best visual effect.  Just doing this alone is capable of making a huge difference!
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Recording My Own Band & Other Projects
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2024, 05:16:42 PM »
^ Once you do that, these other things make sense..

So, if it was my money, I'd buy Line Audio CM4 > Zoom F3 would cost between $500 and $600 and then use my existing Zoom H4n to record the soundboard.  Then matrix those two together and I guarantee that you'll have a fantastic sounding live recording of your band.

I second this

You should just do this, but before buying the Zoom F3, I'd personally try the Line Audio CM4s with your Zoom H4n first. You don't need a new recorder to see the benefits from external mics
^
This is good advice, and can make for a large, significant step up in quality from what you are currently doing.  Running this setup will not be complicated, but you will need to setup the two mics appropriately and in an appropriate location - which is most likely to be at the soundboard facing the stage.

When I record bands I've been in as a performer I usually only record 4 channels - the soundboard mix and a pair of mics at the front of the stage pointed at the band.
^
This too is good advice and can make for an even larger, more substantial step up from what you are currently doing, capable of producing very professional sounding recordings.  It will require a recorder capable of recording more than two channels, which the Zoom F6 can do (The F-series Zoom recorders are good, cost effective, well regarded, and are significantly better than most other lines of Zoom gear).  Functionally, running this kind of setup will require not much additional effort, while providing significant benefits including far greater consistency.  The most important thing it provides is significantly better clarity, particularly of vocals, making for better sounding recordings when the sound in the room is less than perfect. To take advantage of that the soundboard feed needs to be recorded to additional channels on the same recorder that is being used to record the microphones.

Afterward you'll mix the microphone channels and the soundboard channels together.  Doing that is no more difficult than what you are currently doing in recording the sound and video separately to different devices and combining them afterward.

Because you can then depend on clear vocals through the soundboard, you will be free to move the pair of microphones from the soundboard to the front of the stage.  That will sound better, more professional, more dynamic and involving, and will tend to be less influenced by the sound of the rooms in which your band is performing and by any distracted audience members talking back by the soundboard.  Better sound with more consistency.

Other than setting up a pair of mics on their own stand and running a few cables to the recorder, none of this need be significantly more complicated than what you are currently doing. But the success of each further step stands atop the foundation of the previous step. Getting the mics in the best location is the main thing, no matter what you do.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2024, 05:20:38 PM by Gutbucket »
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline goodcooker

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Re: Recording My Own Band & Other Projects
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2024, 02:15:41 PM »

I would start very much where Gutbucket suggests and record with your H4N at the front of the stage pointed at the band (maybe from down low behind the vocal monitor angles up to avoid getting them since you'll have vocals in your sbd feed) and send the sbd mix from the FOH mix position (either through an aux send or control room send not sure on that board) to your onstage location through the snake returns.

The idea with this approach is to get complimentary recordings - clarity and detail from the sbd source and room sound from the mic source. The mics will fill in things like guitar amps and drums that are loud onstage but not well represented in the board mix and give some roominess to things that are primarily only represented in the board source like vocals, keyboards and snare/kick. This kinda depends on the size of the venue, if some instruments are DI or mic'd up cabinets, etc... usually smaller venue = less things that are loud onstage being sent to FOH since you can hear them fine in the audience already.

Mixing the two sources is really simple in a free program like Audacity. There's a wealth of threads here about how to accomplish that specific task.

If this works out for you and you want to upgrade at that point you could get a multichannel recorder like one of the Tascam DR series for a couple hundred bucks and a decent pair of condenser mics for a couple hundred. You don't have to spend a bunch to get solid recordings in this scenario. You are kinda in the cat bird's seat since you have access to your own sbd and where to place your mics. If you sprang for a Zoom F6 and a pair of Line Audio CM3 mics you could be making killer recordings for around $800 if you buy used and have a lot of flexibility in your approach.
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Offline ChiroVette

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Re: Recording My Own Band & Other Projects
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2024, 09:01:59 AM »
Okay, I will have to read and study all of the responses in more detail. Um...eventually. Thanks for all the information, but you guys are reminding me why I really need to stay in my own lane here. You guys are incredibly knowledgeable, but I'm starting to realize that you might as well try and teach a monkey calculus than trying to get all this information into my head.

Maybe I'm not good at communicating, but you guys are waaaaaaaay above my head. I am a performer. I play and sing. I'm not a taper. Really, I have no functional way of evaluating mic position in a venue, and no desire or intention of even trying. I just want to put an ambient recorder in whatever position is most convenient and out of the way to get a decent (by my standards, obviously not all of yours) sounding recording.

I literally am only looking for something that will sound better than all my friends with their iPhones recording one another performing, and marginally better than my Q8.

I don't have the RAM for all of this information. I am not a sound man, professional taper, or even an amateur taper. I'm not even a recording hobbyist.

I think for now, I am just going to stick with the stock Q8, and on nights that I get really ambitious, I will also stick my $200.00 Panasonic camcorder next to it, so I can discard the ZOOM video, and just use the audio from the Q8. Which is pretty much what I have been doing for several years. It works for me. I just wanted something a little better. I don't think I need the H4N because my understanding is that the Q8 being newer tech has better audio. I can also use external mics on both units.


By the way, what the hell is with the verification in trying to post in this forum? Yet another indication that I am way out of my depth here! This is not hyperbole when I say that it takes me over 20 minutes to get past all the questions, not to mention I can almost never read the captcha, AND the the questions keep changing. This is why I don't respond to my own thread. This is insane! I have been using message forums for over 2 decades, and I have literally never seen anything like this. I am sure this post will piss a lot of you off, but this I am on 25 minutes trying to submit this post. I timed it! So, yeah, thanks for all the information, but I think I'm done here. I can't even edit my own posts without hitting a huge time wall. Over and over again, I keep getting sent back to either question(s) I answered wrong, or the Captcha I can't read.


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Re: Recording My Own Band & Other Projects
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2024, 09:46:14 AM »


Good luck man, make great tapes  :bigsmile:
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Recording My Own Band & Other Projects
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2024, 10:05:20 AM »
Let's make it simple.

Put the recorder you already have wherever it sounds best.  Make more effort to do that and you'll make better recordings.  If not willing to do that, upgrading the recording equipment won't help much.

You would not even try to make a video from a position from which you were unable to see the stage.  Similary, you will not be able to make a good sounding recording from a position that does not sound good.

You are a musician. Musicians are natural listeners.  Walk around the room while your band is playing or some other band is playing, listen and determine where it sounds best in the room. Figure out a way to put the recorder there if you can.  If there are only a few places you might reasonably put the recorder, go to each one and listen.  Close your eyes when you do this and rely only on what you are hearing, rather than what you see.  Setup the recorder in whatever place sounds best that is practical to do so.  While setting up, listen again with eyes closed to determine how to best orient the built-in mics of recorder or your microphone pair.  Point the machine or mics at the apparent acoustic center of the sound source, rather than at visually at the band.  Ignore what you see and rely on what you hear.  You may not end up pointing the recorder toward the center of the the band at all, you may end up pointing it at the closest PA speaker, or somewhere else.

If you do nothing more than what is described above rather than simply choosing whatever position is most convenient and out of the way, you will make recordings that sound better than your friends with iPhones.. unless they happen to be standing wherever it actually sounds best.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2024, 10:08:22 AM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline ChiroVette

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Re: Recording My Own Band & Other Projects
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2024, 10:48:44 AM »
Gutbucket, every single thing you said is fair. In fact, everything everyone has said so far is also perfectly reasonable.

I guess what that tells me is, since I have zero intention of trying to find an optimal listening spot, (and in fact, more often than not, I am unable to, since I am playing/singing most of my gigs from 1st song to last) that I should just save my money, and use what I have been using for over a decade, as I won't see any improvement with investing in gear. I assumed a new recorder and/or possibly better mics would help, but apparently, I don't need any of that.

(okay, I was able to make this post after only 1 attempt...so that's something, I suppose  :cheers:)

« Last Edit: May 09, 2024, 10:54:15 AM by ChiroVette »

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Recording My Own Band & Other Projects
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2024, 11:01:47 AM »
That conclusion is sound.

Except that finding a decent sounding spot isn't difficult.  You probably play the same places semi regularly.  Walk around and listen with this mindset while some other band is playing, and remember where the good spots are for next time. 

Simple, free, and the most effective thing you can do.
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline nulldogmas

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Re: Recording My Own Band & Other Projects
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2024, 11:49:07 AM »
One more question that I haven't seen answered yet: Where are you located? The simplest solution might be to see if someone here is local to you and would be willing to come to one of your shows and experiment with recording options, then share that knowledge with you.

Offline AbbyTaper

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Re: Recording My Own Band & Other Projects
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2024, 10:37:29 PM »
The simplest solution might be to see if someone here is local to you and would be willing to come to one of your shows and experiment with recording options, then share that knowledge with you.

There is probably the best advice so far!

Just about everyone gave great advice, but I can certainly see how it would have been overwhelming.   Hopefully you find a solution that works for you.

Offline ChiroVette

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Re: Recording My Own Band & Other Projects
« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2024, 11:20:35 PM »
I agree that all of the advice has been really good so far. I also think that this forum is designed for a way higher level taper than I am. As for gigs, that would have been an easier thing to provide before Covid, but I have just been gearing up again to play live. Since the whole lockdown thing, I have mostly been using backing tracks, and playing summer gigs with an old Grateful Dead cover band. I am based in NY City, but most of the gigs I will be playing in the summer months are out in Suffolk/Nassau Long Island.

Here is my placement problem, and why I brought up the backing tracks: I have been having private parties on the main floor of my house in the cooler months, where outside isn't an option, for obvious reasons. I live in the apartment upstairs, but rather than renting it out, and moving down to the main floor, I decided not to deal with tenants, and I cleared out the main floor for entertaining and for indoor parties, with the smaller version of my PA. Problem with that is placement is a non issue. I have friends that come and perform, and the PA is set up in the front room, blocking the front door. In this setup, there is literally only one place I can record from, which is probably about 15 feet in front of me, against the wall of the living room, and guests are seated, standing in front of that. I have no play where I can set any recording device there, without people tripping all over the recorders.

I also have parties outside in the backyard, and I have a little more play as to where I can record from, but not much, because it's a Brooklyn house, and it's not like I have acres and acres to set up recording, and if I'm not careful, my guests will be tripping all over the recording gear.

I would imagine in the outdoor summer gigs coming up, at least one is in Lindenhurst, I will have more options where to set gear up, but even that is iffy, because I almost always set up by the sound man, since there is a sound man for these larger gigs; and generally he watches my recording gear, and keeps it relatively safe while I play.

I suppose if I start playing in full bands, and not backing tracks (lol what I call Guitarioke) then I will be playing in venues where recording placement would be more variable, but again, bars are small, and I don't want people tripping over and walking all over the recording gear.

Look, if I were a taper, like I used to see all the time at Dead shows, then I can sit on my gear, and keep people away, like I see tapers doing all the time. But in bars, while I am on stage, I simply cannot be watching all my cameras and audio recorders. I really have to set and forget it, and in most of the places I have played with various bar bands, and ones I would play in the coming months, there is generally one kind of out of the way spot to set up, like in one place, behind a pool table, and that's pretty much that. I cannot think of any venues that my little cover band(s) might play any time soon where I could even find proper placement, without me sitting/standing on top of my gear to make sure people aren't dancing/bumping into the stuff.

I really can't imagine finding places in small NY City or Long Island bars that hire me where the "audio is optimal". More often than not, I am damned lucky to find ONE PLACE I can set up the gear that hopefully won't see it jostled while I have to be on stage concentrating on singing, the jams, leading the band musically, and playing.

This is kind of why unless I start getting much better gigs, I pretty much am lucky to find one spot where I can actually set it up in relative safety. So even assuming I can find optimal sonic places to set up, without someone pretty much standing/sitting guard over my recording gear, I can't see how it would work. Unless, by sheer coincidence and an abundance of luck, the one and only place I can set up my recording gear in safety just happens to be in a good aural location.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2024, 11:26:29 PM by ChiroVette »

Offline roffels

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Re: Recording My Own Band & Other Projects
« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2024, 08:36:55 PM »
That conclusion is sound.

Except that finding a decent sounding spot isn't difficult.  You probably play the same places semi regularly.  Walk around and listen with this mindset while some other band is playing, and remember where the good spots are for next time. 

Simple, free, and the most effective thing you can do.

Or just ask the sound engineer.

Offline roffels

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Re: Recording My Own Band & Other Projects
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2024, 08:41:36 PM »
I agree that all of the advice has been really good so far. I also think that this forum is designed for a way higher level taper than I am.

I don't know if I agree with that. It's a mix of gear-heads and some folks that clip little mics into their hat or onto their glasses and want to capture a show. Folks are just trying to answer your questions with the knowledge they have.

Offline ChiroVette

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Re: Recording My Own Band & Other Projects
« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2024, 09:52:34 AM »
Roffels I appreciate all of the answers. When I am playing in the same places over and over again, finding the best sonic spaces may be more feasible, if there are other bands playing that night, which there usually aren't. To reiterate, though, most of my gigs are in small places where there is generally only one place to record my video. Whether that is the "best sonic space" or not, I have no clue, but it is usually the only place in a bar where I can actually set up. Outdoor gigs that have a sound man are also limiting, because there is no taper section like a Dead show. If the soundman sets up in location A, I have to put my gear in location A to prevent audience members from bumping into it, since I cannot keep an eye on the gear from stage, and the sound man has other things to concern himself with than watching my recording gear unless it is right on top of his mixer.

So just to reiterate then, there is no need to buy better recording equipment since I really have no intention of trying to suss out better sonic spaces to place my recorder, and I should just stick with my stock Zoom Q8, since better mics, mic pre-amps, and a better recorder are irrelevant, right?

On the plus side, you guys have saved me some money, since I don't need new recording gear. My life just got a lot simpler. I can't tell you how many times I have spent money I didn't need to, so this is actually sort of good news. :)
« Last Edit: May 14, 2024, 09:54:27 AM by ChiroVette »

Offline capnhook

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Re: Recording My Own Band & Other Projects
« Reply #27 on: May 14, 2024, 10:02:12 AM »


On the plus side, you guys have saved me some money, since I don't need new recording gear. My life just got a lot simpler. I can't tell you how many times I have spent money I didn't need to, so this is actually sort of good news. :)


And it took merely two weeks for you to come to your conclusion  :cheers: :clapping: :coolguy:


Play on man, and make great tapes
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Offline ChiroVette

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Re: Recording My Own Band & Other Projects
« Reply #28 on: May 14, 2024, 05:13:15 PM »
And it took merely two weeks for you to come to your conclusion  :cheers: :clapping: :coolguy:

No, I understood what you guys were saying long ago. I just stuck around and bumped this thread to see if anyone else, perhaps with a different opinion wanted to chime in. My last post was just triple checking that this is actually the advice you were giving. Anyway, no biggie. I like to talk to people, and online is no different. Thanks for the input. I wasn't disagreeing with anyone in this thread, just surprised at the advice. Enough so, to ping this thread a few extra times.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Recording My Own Band & Other Projects
« Reply #29 on: May 15, 2024, 11:25:18 AM »
The simplest solution might be to see if someone here is local to you and would be willing to come to one of your shows and experiment with recording options, then share that knowledge with you.

There is probably the best advice so far!

Agreed. That's the answer!
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline jefflester

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Re: Recording My Own Band & Other Projects
« Reply #30 on: May 15, 2024, 01:05:10 PM »
Still think you should try what gutbucket and I both suggested. Place the H4n (or Q8) at the stage lip and then take a line out from the mixer (a copy of the mix being sent to the main PA speakers) and add that, they are both 4 channel recorders. The internal mics on the Zoom will capture content from the stage, the line in will capture what is low or missing from the stage. Then afterwards you adjust the balance between them to your liking. This will significantly improve the quality of your recordings without any additional gear and without worrying about unattended gear in the audience.
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Offline ChiroVette

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Re: Recording My Own Band & Other Projects
« Reply #31 on: May 15, 2024, 01:43:21 PM »
Still think you should try what gutbucket and I both suggested. Place the H4n (or Q8) at the stage lip and then take a line out from the mixer (a copy of the mix being sent to the main PA speakers) and add that, they are both 4 channel recorders. The internal mics on the Zoom will capture content from the stage, the line in will capture what is low or missing from the stage. Then afterwards you adjust the balance between them to your liking. This will significantly improve the quality of your recordings without any additional gear and without worrying about unattended gear in the audience.

This sounds like a great idea. I had initially dismissed it mentally because it sounded a helluva lot more complicated than it actually is when you guys suggested it, and I was trying to simplify as much as possible. I just have to look at the Q8 and see what the Line in is, whether it is 1/4 inch, XLR, or 1/8" stereo. Since everything is going through the mixer, especially when I am playing live with my backing tracks, and my guitar goes right into the mixer via my Fractal FM9. For some reason, I misinterpreted what you guys were saying as using the mixer to record, which would send the audio to my iPad via Wifi, since it's a Mackie DL-1608. But you guys are actually talking about using the Q8 or H4N to take a line from the mixer. lol Not sure why I missed that.

I am playing again in a couple of weeks, and will try that.   

I don't have the Zoom in front of me at the moment, until I get home, but there are four input or record LED lights on the unit, and usually only the two top lights are lit, which I assume is the stereo signal from the onboard mics. I never really gave it much thought what those other two red LEDs are for, but since reading your post, I am going to assume that they indicate the line in, which in this case, would be from the mixer.

Thanks again! This is what I am going to do. I suppose if I am still not 100% happy with the quality of the recording, a good next step would be buying a pair of decent mics for the Zoom. But I am getting ahead of myself.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Recording My Own Band & Other Projects
« Reply #32 on: May 15, 2024, 04:37:29 PM »
The next step will be managing the feed from SBD to recorder.

I just looked up the Q8 Handy Recorder.  In addition to the built-in X/Y mic pair the Q8 features a pair of TRS/XLR combo jacks.  That means you can run a pair of XLR or 1/4" plug cables to the recorder from the SBD.  Note: Those are the only inputs on the Q8 other than its built-in mics, so if you do use external microphones into the Q8, which it appears capable of supporting, you will not be able to also record SBD into it at the same time. [edit- but no worries, just keep it simple with the built-in mics + SBD]

I also just looked up the Mackie DL-1608.  At that end you'll need to send the feed to the Q8 using a pair of it's AUX outs (1/4" jacks).  You'll either just additionally route the same main-out mix to that AUX pair (this will be simplest, if doing so is an option on the mackie), or make a separate AUX mix.  A separate AUX mix allows you to either essentially duplicate the same main mix that is being sent to the PA through the main outs (second simplest, try that next if you can't send the main mix to AUX), or make a somewhat different AUX mix from what is being sent to the PA, which might be useful if after doing this once or twice you determine you'd like a bit more vocals and less bass, or whatever, in the SBD recording.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2024, 04:41:05 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline capnhook

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Re: Recording My Own Band & Other Projects
« Reply #33 on: May 15, 2024, 04:49:30 PM »
Still think you should try what gutbucket and I both suggested. Place the H4n (or Q8) at the stage lip and then take a line out from the mixer (a copy of the mix being sent to the main PA speakers) and add that, they are both 4 channel recorders. The internal mics on the Zoom will capture content from the stage, the line in will capture what is low or missing from the stage. Then afterwards you adjust the balance between them to your liking. This will significantly improve the quality of your recordings without any additional gear and without worrying about unattended gear in the audience.

You want the fast lane to significantly better recordings?  Follow this advice from jefflester, great post man


You already have the advantage of being the musician, because you have "better than a taper's chance" to get the sound engineer to send a board signal up through the snake to your recorder


You'll have less post- processing, no time-alignment if you run on stage, easy mixing


Nobody sane is going to risk a punt in the face from you if they disturb your gear, it's right there close



Play on and make great tapes  :djsmilie:




Proud member of the reality-based community

BSCS-L->JB-mod [NAK CM-300 (CP-3) and/or (CP-1)]->LSD2->CA CAFS-Omni->Sony ECM-907**Apogee MiniMe Rev. C->CA Ugly II->**Edirol OCM R-44->Tascam DR-22WL->Sony TCD-D8


"Don't ever take an all or nothing attitude when it comes to making a difference
and being beautiful and making the world a beautiful place through your actions.
Every little bit is registered.  Every little bit.  So be as beautiful as you can as often as you can"

"It'll never be over, 'till we learn."
 
"My dream is to get a bus and get the band and just go coast to coast. Just about everything else except music, is anti-musical.  That's it.  Music's the thing." - Jeb Puryear

 

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