Topic: Vote: What to do, what to do?

[Candace]

OK, let's throw this out there. Friday night I was at Panic at RR and my laptop blew up. Actually, to be more specific, the hard drive died. Until then, I hadn't had any issues recording to it, aside from the big one of battery life (about 2 hours tops; there have been a couple of Panic shows where I wasn't sure I'd make it and at least one Phil show where I didn't, had to shut down, and put back in the battery from the first set).

I've got a new HD on the way and will install it.

Here is what I'm thinking:

1) There are a few shows where I've been unable to run gear because I needed the laptop to write a review.

2) I should really save the laptop for work, as I can't invest another $1500 in a new computer if this dies for good.

3) I currently run the Apoge AD1K as both pre and AD. For all you naysayers, the platinum AD1K sounds awfully good standalone.

4) Those 12V SLAs break my back every time I go to RR. I have 2, and they've been used enough that at this point I get about one set each from them, as opposed to 1 show each like I used to. This makes shows like the upcoming Allmans/Yonder problematic (who do I tape?)

5) I love the Apogee sound and I'm not sold on 24/96 as worthwhile for recording a PA. Even on a reference audiophile system like mine (tubes and MartinLogans, yummm!), playing a DVD-A and a CD of the same recording isn't a huge difference.

6) OTOH, the Apogee is a pain loaded in its current rack box.


HERE ARE MY SOLUTIONS.

1) Get a used JB3 and keep running the Apogee. This prevents future expansion though if I decide I do want to record at 24/96. Cons: will need to buy more HEAVY SLA 12V, unless someone knows how to adapt a lighter weight ni-cad for use with the AD1K, like Jason did here with his Tascam:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=65470.30

2) Get a Microtrack. Some people I know have used these with absolutely no problems; others have had issues. The consensus seems to be that recording at 16/44.1 is fine. How do they work at 24/96? The advantage to this is I could still run the Apogee until it completely dies and then at that point get a V3 and run either 16/44.1 or 24/96. Cons: Same as above

3) Get a Marantz PMD671. Same advantages as above, plus could have it modded by Oade for use as all in one down the line. Cons: More $$$, especially since I'll need to buy CF cards.

4) Sell the Apogee. Get the Marantz and run stand alone until I can afford the Oade Mod.

5) Sell the Apogee. Get an SD722. Probably better as a standalone than the Marantz, both from sound quality and having a much larger hard drive. When you factor in the CF cards you need to buy for the Marantz, I think you spend about the same on the 722.



OK tapers, discuss! Any and all feedback appreciated. Has anyone compared the sound of a 722 and an Oade-mod 671? Compared either of those to an AD1K? What about the reliability of the Microtrack? Any battery issues with the Microtrack or 671?

[Brian Skalinder]

My votes...

If you really, really love the Apogee AD1K sound and can't bear to give it up (which seems the case), then:

1) Get a used JB3 and keep running the Apogee. This prevents future expansion though if I decide I do want to record at 24/96. Cons: will need to buy more HEAVY SLA 12V, unless someone knows how to adapt a lighter weight ni-cad for use with the AD1K, like Jason did here with his Tascam:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=65470.30

The JB3 was pretty darn solid for me (and many others) and you don't then have to deal with buying lots of media to gain record time, a la the MicroTrack.  Going with a used JB3 will prove cost effective, so when the AD1K croaks for good and should you decide to go 24-bit, you haven't invested much cash in getting the last legs out of your 16-bit setup.  (There may even be a couple JB3s in the YS right now).

On the power front, I imagine you could pick up some 12v lithium-ion batteries to cut down in a BIG way on weight.  Something like this;  I suspect there are plenty of other similar options.  I've not used 12v li-ion batts before, though I use 9v li-ion batts for my V3 and R-4 (and previously UA5).

But if you're willing to forego the Apogee sound, I think you're spot on with this thinking:

5) Sell the Apogee. Get an SD722. Probably better as a standalone than the Marantz, both from sound quality and having a much larger hard drive. When you factor in the CF cards you need to buy for the Marantz, I think you spend about the same on the 722.

Finally...

What about the reliability of the Microtrack?

As you noted, some find the MT reliable, others do not.  Mine (first two, now down to one) were/are both very solid (if quirky) on firmware v1.2.3.  But I don't think there's any point in getting an MT unless you want a 24-bit bucket.  If you stick with the AD1K, IMO you might as well stick with a 16-bit bucket (JB3) that's less expensive, doesn't require media, and gets the job done.  If and when you decide to make the jump to 24-bit, by that point there may be other recorder options on the market, and at the very least the price / storage for media will be less expensive.

[rocksuitcase]

Candace, great to see/read you on here!  This is Kyle, Phil's friend, used to hang with the BT crew at Red rocks.

I owned a JB3, and altough mine broke ( due to brute force) I think it is a good low priced starter solution for you.  the main thing with them is the internal batteries, most only have one included.  MIne had 2 which went almost 6 hours for recording.  If you don't go JB3, the all in one ability of the 671 seems affordable, although then you are using CF cards.

If you are committed to staying with the AD1K and only need 16 bit then the JB3 would be my choice.

[thegreatgumbino]

What kind of mics are you running, Candace?

My .02:

1) If you're going to stay with the Apogee sound, pick up an Iriver H120.  Optical in is working thanks to the RockBox software, making it a competitor to the JB3.  It's about 1/2 the size of the JB3, and has much better battery life than the JB3.  I picked up a NIB H120 for about $120 shipped off Ebay.

2) If you're willing to lose the Apogee, I say get the Oade Mod 671.  All the recordings I've heard with it sound great, and it's considerably less than the 722. 

[Candace]

What kind of mics are you running, Candace?

My .02:

1) If you're going to stay with the Apogee sound, pick up an Iriver H120.  Optical in is working thanks to the RockBox software, making it a competitor to the JB3.  It's about 1/2 the size of the JB3, and has much better battery life than the JB3.  I picked up a NIB H120 for about $120 shipped off Ebay.

2) If you're willing to lose the Apogee, I say get the Oade Mod 671.  All the recordings I've heard with it sound great, and it's considerably less than the 722. 

Hi. I run the MBHO 603 mics. I've got both the cardioid and sub-card capsules.

The Oade sells for $1299. Add in 2 4GB cards and you are up to $1800 or so. The 722 has a 40GB HD and is considerably smaller; if you were to get enough storage to match the 722 the price would be far higher for the 671. I do tape festivals sometimes, taping 5-6 hours of music for three straight days. If I were to run 24/96 for that, I would need almost 40GB of storage to get it all, although admittedly I could probably get to a laptop each night and download to a portable HD. Still, I'd need about 12GB of storage for that.

BTW, I use the Audio Magic Excalibur cables to go from the mics to the AD1K.

On the iRiver, how hard is it to upgrade the firmware to allow it to record wavs? What is the relative difference in battery life?

[coloartist]

Candace,
  Good to see you tis weekend.

1. I am running my MT24/48 (as I call it) and my JB3 as my backup(truncated 16 bit) I am running firmware 1.2.3. I have upgraded once to 1.3.3 and went back.

I have not had one problem since going back, and because of this I have never tried any newer firmware.

The only problem I have is the 2 gb limit. I had to start a new file at Red Rocks twice, and once I would have made it, but I didn't want to chance it.

When I listen to the difference between 16 bit and 24 bit, there is definately a quality difference recorded from PA's.

I still have my JB3 backup, so I can fill in the gap from starting a file, if I want to, but I don't mind cutting out the crowd noise when waiting for the encore.

Purests might not like to lose the crowd noise, but I don't need to hear it myself.

Alot of people have had problems with some firmware, but Mine,Phils, and Simpys MT all worked flawlessly this weekend.

There was one girl that was going to patch out of Rodney. Her MT was totally dead, but my guess is, she left it on, and totally killed the battery.

I run everything with Walmart/memorex Lithiums. I bought most of them on EBAY. I ended up paying $80.00 for 5 of them.

As far as 24/96 goes, you would have to restart th MT every hour.

[Brian Skalinder]

1) If you're going to stay with the Apogee sound, pick up an Iriver H120.  Optical in is working thanks to the RockBox software, making it a competitor to the JB3.

Ahhh...I didn't realize the H120 now supports optical input.  Nice!  Do you know of anyone who has performed any sort of controlled testing (to rule out resampling, introduction of artifacts, etc.) to ensure its reliability, or at the very least extensive field use?

It's about 1/2 the size of the JB3, and has much better battery life than the JB3.

FWIW, regarding JB3 battery life:  it's easy to power externally for long periods of time.  Does the H120 also support external power options?  I assume so, but...thought I'd ask.

[thegreatgumbino]

1) If you're going to stay with the Apogee sound, pick up an Iriver H120.  Optical in is working thanks to the RockBox software, making it a competitor to the JB3.

Ahhh...I didn't realize the H120 now supports optical input.  Nice!  Do you know of anyone who has performed any sort of controlled testing (to rule out resampling, introduction of artifacts, etc.) to ensure its reliability, or at the very least extensive field use?

It's about 1/2 the size of the JB3, and has much better battery life than the JB3.

FWIW, regarding JB3 battery life:  it's easy to power externally for long periods of time.  Does the H120 also support external power options?  I assume so, but...thought I'd ask.

Lots of people recording with the optical in on the H120/140, and it's confirmed being bit accurate.  Another cool thing about it is that it has optical out for patches.  Lots of info to be found in the following threads.

iRiver H1xx FAQ

Team iRiver

[terrapinj]

if you've got the $ 722 all the way - you get what you pay for IMO

i have heard some really nice tapes with the ACM 671 as well, although nothing with the MBHOs that I can recall, but I was really sold on the idea of a HDD and not having to deal with changing CF cards or carrying extras around.

i would highly suggest an all-in-one box if you are concerned with lugging lots of batteries and other extras around.

[thegreatgumbino]

Fozzy runs MBH0 actives > 722, and his recordings sound fantastic IMO.  Good pairing.

[coloartist]

if you've got the $ 722 all the way - you get what you pay for IMO

i have heard some really nice tapes with the ACM 671 as well, although nothing with the MBHOs that I can recall, but I was really sold on the idea of a HDD and not having to deal with changing CF cards or carrying extras around.

i would highly suggest an all-in-one box if you are concerned with lugging lots of batteries and other extras around.

This is the answer. You get what you pay for. If I had the money for a 744, I would buy it. I don't so I paid $350 plus $275 for 2 4gb cards.

[thegreatgumbino]

It depends on if you plan to move to 24/96 or not.  I don't see myself doing it.  Therefore, I'm sticking with the iRiver to run as a bit bucket.  If I wanted an all in one 16 bit box, I'd go for the Oade Mod 671.  Much cheaper than the 722, and it sounds great.  If 24 bit was the way I was heading & I had the ching, the 722 is a great sounding all in one box paired with the MBHO's.

[Ed.]

The Oade sells for $1299. Add in 2 4GB cards and you are up to $1800 or so.

You can get 4gb cards for around $100 if you shop around.

Still, my vote is for the 722.  After running a laptop and carrying around all that lead, the pure simplicity of the thing will make taping so much easier and more enjoyable for your back.

[dnsacks]

If you're happy with the apogee sound and not interested (yet) in 24 bit, I'd hold onto the apogee, get a new 7.2ah sla (which should last you at least an entire show), and run the ad1k until it dies.  I don't think folks are getting much $$$ at all for the ad1k, and you might as well get your money's worth out of it.  The one drawback of the jb3 is that its meters are fairly worthless.  If you're ok with that, jb3s are pretty well proven and a used jb3 won't set you back too much at all. 

Another option would be to skip the jb3 and get an unmodded Marantz 671 or Tascam Hd-p2 from doug oade to simply use as a "bit bucket" behind the ad1k.  Both of these will power for a LONG time off of internal rechargable aa batteries and have great metering.  Skipping the mod will save you some considerable $$$ up front, but buying from the oades will allow you to get the mod done in the future (the oades only mod gear that they sell).  A 4gb cf card will hold a LOT of music at 16/44.1 and, with prices of cf memory dropping rapidly, you might find cf cards to be price effective for higher resolution recording in the future.

[thegreatgumbino]

If you're happy with the apogee sound and not interested (yet) in 24 bit, I'd hold onto the apogee, get a new 7.2ah sla (which should last you at least an entire show), and run the ad1k until it dies.  I don't think folks are getting much $$$ at all for the ad1k, and you might as well get your money's worth out of it.  The one drawback of the jb3 is that its meters are fairly worthless.  If you're ok with that, jb3s are pretty well proven and a used jb3 won't set you back too much at all. 

Another option would be to skip the jb3 and get an unmodded Marantz 671 or Tascam Hd-p2 from doug oade to simply use as a "bit bucket" behind the ad1k.  Both of these will power for a LONG time off of internal rechargable aa batteries and have great metering.  Skipping the mod will save you some considerable $$$ up front, but buying from the oades will allow you to get the mod done in the future (the oades only mod gear that they sell).  A 4gb cf card will hold a LOT of music at 16/44.1 and, with prices of cf memory dropping rapidly, you might find cf cards to be price effective for higher resolution recording in the future.

Solid advice.  +T

[Nick's Picks]

Hi Candace...

I'll 2nd everything Daren said.  Its a great idea.
the 671 is my vote for "best bit bucket", and w/the option of getting future MODs from Doug for another $400 when the apogee dies is a great thing.

another option..
Cascade Media and their MOD Edirol R4.
4 channels of love, fat hard drive, 24bit action and still under $1500. 

whatever you do, ditch that lead battery setup and get some Lithium Ion solution.

Oh....and ML's rock.  I used to have some SL3's myself for a while.  I agree that 24bit PA recording is, for the most part, moot for 24bit recording.  You get more air detail, but not really any music detail.

that said, I still think recording at 24/44 is the cats ass, and doesn't require the massive storage issues that 96khz does and does keep all the doors open.