Topic: The Merits of the 722?

[Nick's Picks]

If I velcro my MR1 to the Apogee MMP, its almost like a one box solution, and I really like the preamp section.

[gewwang]

don't mis-interpret nick.  i think the 722 sounds very good, just not as good as the mod 671.  i think the fact the 7xx boxes sound as good as they do stock is a major accomplishment considering they're made by the same company that sold the mp2. 

It'd be interesting to hear a standalone acm 671 vs. 722 comp.

i'd be willing to offer up my acm 671 to an established member of the community to do the comp.  all i ask in return is payment for the shipping/insurance both ways and agree that they'd pay the repair charges to fix the recorder, if they damaged it in any way.

So if you're offering it up to do a comp, that implies you've never heard a comp which contradicts the statement that the 722 doesn't sound as good as the mod 671.

what i'm referring to is the scale structure and how its geared more towards film work.  having a light at -12 and two between it and 0 are not what i would call adequate metering for our purposes. 

722 meters                                                                                                 


671 meters

the 671 also has a numeric display that shows the highest dB level of the signal.  unfortunately it doesn't do it for each channel.

The 722 metering is just fine. The first led above -12 is red so I start off with the levels peaking around there then turn the levels up til peaks hit the 2nd to final led. If the peak ever hits the final led, I just back the level off a bit and don't touch them again the rest of the set. I can also see the balance really accurately since the levels do update very quickly. Because of the stereo linking feature, it's easy to make subtle balance adjustments using the 2nd level knob to tweak the balance after the linked volume level has been set. Since getting my 722 I've kept both knobs linked and they've been right at about 12 o'clock for every show I've taped (stealth or open and either with the 722 front end or m148>722) other than one show where I had the low cut filter enabled and had the gain bumped up to about 3 o'clock.

[MattD]

I just don't like having 4 reds because if I'm using peak hold + VU I can't tell which of the 4 reds is lit and if I'm using peak hold only, I can't tell count if I have 2 or 3 reds lit fast enough. Real issue: peak hold needs to be longer and I'd love to swap that board out with green LEDs then yellow for the 3 before clip and then red clip.

[gratefulphish]

From the minute that I got my 722, I began to fully appreciate the quality of the unit, and its ability to be an all in one box, even though most of the time, I do run my V3 in front of it.  As far as meters go, I have said before and will say again, give me back my DA-P1 meters and peak level numeric readout.  Best meters ever.  I would almost be willing to canabalize my P1, if I could just have those meters available.  That being said, I have learned to deal with the 722 meters without any issues, with or without the V3.  When I am running the V3, I usually have the 722 set at -5db, and just use the V3 for level setting. But when I run mics>722, I keep the peaks at one below the top LED.  You also have the ability to set the clip level lights at any db setting you want, so you are alerted if you are at -1, -2 or whatever level you set.

All in all, it is built like a tank, it is tiny for all that it does, and with the exception of needing one of the Sony style tumor batteries sticking out the back, it is a dream machine.  I am going to be trying an external battery setup, using the hirose connector, which IMO should be replaced with something that would allow for a lower profile right angle connection.

[gratefulphish]

I just don't like having 4 reds because if I'm using peak hold + VU I can't tell which of the 4 reds is lit and if I'm using peak hold only, I can't tell count if I have 2 or 3 reds lit fast enough. Real issue: peak hold needs to be longer and I'd love to swap that board out with green LEDs then yellow for the 3 before clip and then red clip.

I use peak hold and VU, and have no problem telling which red LED is lit. Have you tried adjusting the brightness of the LEDs?  As I understand it, there has been a number of requests to SD for a firmware upgrade that will allow for customized setting of the meters.  That would be wonderful, and if they could put a peak level number in the main screen, I would be in hog heaven.

[MattD]

From a distance, or up close? I like to be able to glance and know what's going on without really interrupting my enjoyment of the show. I have the brightness all the way down and it's still too bright for most shows. The only time I've ever turned it up is for an outdoor daytime show. The peak hold is too fast for me. Personally, I liked the ULN-2 meters. Green until -6, orange at -6, -3, -1, red at clip. I could set my levels to just touch the orange and have 6 dB of headroom. Peak hold was about 2-3 seconds, if I recall.

Yeah, I've been requesting custom meter settings/margin readout/etc. for about a year. I'm not holding my breath. I still don't think they fixed the bug I reported about markers not being saved in a file that is autosplit.

[ghellquist]

As to meters, it works perfectly well unless you want to squash the sound. Remember, it is not recording to a cassette tape where we need to cram every last bit of resolution out of the equipment not to get the song drenched in noise. Instead we have a genereous noise margin to work with. Part of that margin is best used as a safety net.

I aim for yellow leds and no red leds even at peaks (no need to see if there is one or several reds). This means there is plenty of headroom up to digital stops. Allowing for things getting stronger and still having a lot of distance down to noise floor. It also means that there is no compression going on, the recording is what the mics hear. Now at this level I add the limiter in the 722. It starts kicking in at about -6dB and gives even more of a suspenders safety against by mistake getting the levels totally wrong.

Once home, it is very easy to normalize the level up with a good software (I use Samplitude). It is also easy to do a bit EQ compensating for a bad room, a bit of compression, further volume raise and a final mastering limiter to get the level up to close to commercial CD level. Many a reputable engineer hates the loudness war going on at the commercial side, just about any record sounds squashed out of every nuance, but the choice can be done in postprocessing with access to good listening, not in the heat of the moment. Postprocessing in a good program takes only a few minutes.

Gunnar

[MattD]

As to meters, it works perfectly well unless you want to squash the sound. Remember, it is not recording to a cassette tape where we need to cram every last bit of resolution out of the equipment not to get the song drenched in noise.

*snip*

Many a reputable engineer hates the loudness war going on at the commercial side, just about any record sounds squashed out of every nuance, but the choice can be done in postprocessing with access to good listening, not in the heat of the moment. Postprocessing in a good program takes only a few minutes.

Running hot does nothing to the dynamics so long as you don't use or hit the limiter. I want to maximize my S:N ratio during the recording process. Bringing it up later also brings up the noise floor. However, odds are that unless we're recording a very quiet source, this isn't a problem whichever way you decide to run.

[gratefulphish]

As to meters, it works perfectly well unless you want to squash the sound. Remember, it is not recording to a cassette tape where we need to cram every last bit of resolution out of the equipment not to get the song drenched in noise. Instead we have a genereous noise margin to work with. Part of that margin is best used as a safety net.

I aim for yellow leds and no red leds even at peaks (no need to see if there is one or several reds). This means there is plenty of headroom up to digital stops. Allowing for things getting stronger and still having a lot of distance down to noise floor. It also means that there is no compression going on, the recording is what the mics hear. Now at this level I add the limiter in the 722. It starts kicking in at about -6dB and gives even more of a suspenders safety against by mistake getting the levels totally wrong.

Once home, it is very easy to normalize the level up with a good software (I use Samplitude). It is also easy to do a bit EQ compensating for a bad "room, a bit of compression, further volume raise and a final mastering limiter to get the level up to close to commercial CD level. Many a reputable engineer hates the loudness war going on at the commercial side, just about any record sounds squashed out of every nuance, but the choice can be done in postprocessing with access to good listening, not in the heat of the moment. Postprocessing in a good program takes only a few minutes.

Gunnar

I really cannot see why you would want to run that low, even with the additional headroom provided by 24 bit recording.  -6db is one thing, but not hitting the reds, means that you are below -12db.  And why, after that, would you ever use a limiter.  Ever?  I don't care what deck it is, limiters suck.  I also don't quite understand your post processing, you raise the levels, then you compress them, then you raise the levels again, and then you use a "final mastering limiter".  What does this mean?  Sounds like you are completely destroying the true dynamic range.

[Brian Skalinder]

I really cannot see why you would want to run that low, even with the additional headroom provided by 24 bit recording.  -6db is one thing, but not hitting the reds, means that you are below -12db.

IIRC, Gunnar records unamplified music.  Keep in mind recording real instruments and voices provides -much- broader dynamic range v. recording a PA, and as such it's wise to reserver greater headroom.  In some of the a cappella recording I've done, I've felt safe at -12 dB only to have, for example, a big soprano blast blow through my headroom and clip.

[eric.B]

From the minute that I got my 722, I began to fully appreciate the quality of the unit, and its ability to be an all in one box, even though most of the time, I do run my V3 in front of it.  As far as meters go, I have said before and will say again, give me back my DA-P1 meters and peak level numeric readout.  Best meters ever.  I would almost be willing to canabalize my P1, if I could just have those meters available.  That being said, I have learned to deal with the 722 meters without any issues, with or without the V3.  When I am running the V3, I usually have the 722 set at -5db, and just use the V3 for level setting. But when I run mics>722, I keep the peaks at one below the top LED.  You also have the ability to set the clip level lights at any db setting you want, so you are alerted if you are at -1, -2 or whatever level you set.

All in all, it is built like a tank, it is tiny for all that it does, and with the exception of needing one of the Sony style tumor batteries sticking out the back, it is a dream machine.  I am going to be trying an external battery setup, using the hirose connector, which IMO should be replaced with something that would allow for a lower profile right angle connection.

as far as I know..  you got that right!    just for the sheer fact there's a peak level numeric readout thats *allways* shown.   Hell, I wouldn't care really how bad the levels are on a recorder from a graphic standpoint as long as there was that numeric peak number there to show ya just *exactly* where you stand.   On the dap1, when looking down on it after that  precipitously LOUD portion of a show, you just have to smile if there is just a "zero" there looking back at you.       If you see a blinking zero, just cut it back a bit..  easy!    With the v3 actually, I still use the dap1 meters to adjust levels like I did when I ran the v2 line in, especially during my onstage no PA jazz gigs.  But I will admit, I do like the peak overload hold on the v3.. which is the same as the blinking zero on the dap1.

I just don't like having 4 reds because if I'm using peak hold + VU I can't tell which of the 4 reds is lit and if I'm using peak hold only, I can't tell count if I have 2 or 3 reds lit fast enough. Real issue: peak hold needs to be longer and I'd love to swap that board out with green LEDs then yellow for the 3 before clip and then red clip.

^^why the dap1's levels rock!

[nickgregory]

So if you're offering it up to do a comp, that implies you've never heard a comp which contradicts the statement that the 722 doesn't sound as good as the mod 671.

afaik an acm 671 / 722 comp has never been done. 

i have a good handle on how my deck sounds with 4022s and gefell mics in front of it and i've also heard quite a few 402x>7xx recordings which is what my opinion is based on.  i realize there are many other variables involved, (venue, location, etc.) and i've never heard a single gefell > 7xx recording; i actually don't think one circulates.  (did sobel do one recently?)  if one does, i'd love to hear it since that was one of the main reasons i went with the oade box in the first place way back when.  i have no problem offering up my deck, my m20/mv200 pair and my belden 1804a interconnects so a proper comp can be done and i can eat my words. 

there are plenty of MG->722 tapes circulating...I did more than a few...some with M148...most without

http://www.archive.org/details/tishamingo2005-09-03.flac16

http://www.archive.org/details/dbt2005-06-28.flac24

http://www.archive.org/details/cl2005-03-01.flac24

http://www.archive.org/details/bhtm2005-03-01.shnf

http://www.archive.org/details/mmj2005-06-07.flac24

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I really cannot see why you would want to run that low, even with the additional headroom provided by 24 bit recording.  -6db is one thing, but not hitting the reds, means that you are below -12db.

Back in the analog days, 0 dB was the equiv of what, -14dBFS?  Or is it -18dBFS?  So there is this notion that some preamp output stages will be overloading if you drive them near 0dBFS.

There is also concern that some input stages don't cope well with signals as hot as 0dbFS. I think a peak at -12 vs. peak at 0 comp would be interesting but it would be entirely rig dependent.

Like many others here, I sometimes record in some impressively quiet venues.  Yet the noise floor of the quietest moments is still way, way above the noise floor of my gear.  So adding 12db in post for a 7xx recording concerns me not in the least, especially on a rock PA show.  As Brian and others have mentioned, sometimes -12 isn't nearly enough reserve and a singer, trumpet, drum can blow it right out.  I swear Wynton was toying with me when he walked up to the stage lip at a show a while back with a 'I'm going to blow out your levels' gleam in his eye..

I don't agree with the general concern that raising in post raises the noise floor bcause it also raises the peaks. Adding more gain on the pre.... are you ready for this....  raises the noise floor..

I don't use the limiter on the 7xx.  I also don't do EQ, compression, etc, in post unless the recording is really lacking.  A sustained note from a horn or violin sounds butchered to me when compressed.  I don't doubt that many of my recordings could be *generally* improved by more post but I also think I could find specific flaws introduced as a result of the post and those flaws would bug me. I want to stay as close to the original bits from the a/d as possible, partially on principle.  That many of my recordings cannot be played back on car stereos, etc, doesn't really bug me.

Good thread, even though it started by someone not even contemplating a 7xx.. as if we need more fluffing..

[ghellquist]

A bit of explaining might be needed as per my previous post.

-12dBFS means that we are two bits down from top as one bit is about 6dB. We still have about 18 left in the AD. Good AD converters today gives about 20bits S/N regardless of the claim for 24 bit fame. Compare to a CD that is max 16 bits, and we still have quite a lot to work with. If you run a digital recorder very close to 0dBFS you are letting the electronics work as a limiter, there are always short strong sounds, transients. Some of the boxes are made to sound good "overdriven", some not, but it is definitely not a true representation of the recorded signal anymore. My guess is that the V3 mentioned is made to sound good in "overdrive" distorting in a pleasant way. The 722 circuits are not, they distort ugly (according to my ears). With the 722 limiter in circuit the "distortion" is again nice to hear, it starts at -6dB though so still a good idea to be a bit lower.

In post I might do the following. Remember I do acoustic music, open recordings, on request by the choir or orchestra. In "industry" terms it is more like what a mastering engineer would do (and I am really a beginner at this).

1 - normalize, just beeing lazy and to get things up to a known level. (I use Samplitude and the normalize is done virtually, no files are written, just parameters set).
2 - high-pass, removing everything below, say, 30 Hz. Only subways and buses down there anyway. Depending on the source, sometimes as high as 150 Hertz (girls choir). If I use cardioid mics these start falling of at something like 100-150 Hz anyway when used at a distance, one of my omni pairs goes down to 10Hz (or even a bit lower).
3 - if it improves things, very careful EQ, maybe 2 or 3 db down on offending room modes. Some rooms sound very "boxy" and a little eq can improve things quite a lot without beeing heard. Disturbing though if it is not EQ-d off.
4 - sometimes, a very slight compression. Often a factor of 1.1 or 1.2 (that is just a slight, slight touch). The idea is to "sweeten" things just a tiny bit, not changing the character, just making it easier to listen to. Not every source is improved by this though.
5 - adjust volumes of all songs to get good sequencing between them. Typically a request in order for the record to be playable at all in a car -- the client is always right.
6 - and finally, often a limiter set at -3dB. The volumes before this should be set so that it will only do anything in a small parts in a few of the songs. It could be a single drum hit or a single very percussive note somewhere. The effect is not to be heard, but a listener is often disturbed by the recording if the transients are left in. The exact value is depending on several things, but -3dB seems right most of the time. Mp3 coders as example struggle to get up to the last dB-s and may sound much better with a little headroom left. Some CD-players also struggle at the very top, best to leave them the room.

Sometimes i do a bit of noise removal, audience coughs, things dropped, perhaps a screaming baby. All to get it down to a level where it does not remove focus from the music performed. Another thing is on amateur choirs the sopranos can be a bit strong on resonance tones. A tad of multiband compressor can be used, all bands except the "soprano band" set to no compression. Has to be done with taste.

Sorry, a bit of rambling in a thread really about other things.

Gunnar

[gratefulphish]

I apologize for some of my comments, as I was not aware of the type of music that you record, and I agree that there are a lot more challenges, and potential dynamic range changes in taping acoustic music of that type.  I was wondering why you normalize first and then run a low pass filter.  I frequently have to run a low pass, and also normalize, but I do it in reverse order.  I find, at least in the rock realm, that a lot of the peaks are bass notes, and bass drum, and eq'ing that first, brings about a more balanced sound after normalization. I think I will try a quick comp or two with the same clip, doing it one way and then the other, to see what the difference is.