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Offline Big Muff

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24 bit newbie question
« on: December 05, 2014, 05:58:28 PM »
ripping vinyl, going from tt > phono stage > V3 (A/D) > opti out > creative X-FI HD usb > wavelab 5

the creative is an external usb soundcard that will convert the 24bit opti spdif to usb into the pc (win7 64bit)   http://www.soundblaster.com/products/Sound-Blaster-X-Fi-HD.aspx

using both cdwave v1.98 and wavelab5 i get very slow playback, the sound is crystal clear.  I'm guessing there's a setting I don't know about?
the V3 is set at 96k the recording source for wavelab is set to the opti/spdif at 24/96
as soon as i hit record, the counter in wavelab is clearly speeding. like after recording for roughly 1 minute of actual time, the recorded wav will be around 2 minutes in length.

How do i correct this?
« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 09:44:23 PM by Big Muff »
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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: 24 bit newbie question
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2014, 06:48:13 PM »
Sounds like the file contains data at one sample rate, but the WAV header notes a different sample rate.  From the Readme1st link at the top of the forum, try this:  http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=80888.0
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Offline H₂O

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Re: 24 bit newbie question
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2014, 09:06:58 PM »
Typically creative products resample all inbound audio on their digital inputs - so you may want to avoid them

Do you have a 24 bit recorder with digital in?  If so I would use this instead
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Offline Big Muff

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Re: 24 bit newbie question
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2014, 07:42:00 AM »

the readme def sent me in the right direction Bri.
It turns out there was a setting in win7 recording devices. default format and exclusive mode.
great sounding rips!

as for the 24bit recorder, h2o I ultimately decided on a card because i never do 24 bit live.
I've searched a lot for info on weather or not the creative is "bit perfect" found nothing. Could you tell me where you read about the resampling in creative products? Curious, if the jukebox3 is one of those...

Ya know, my gut told me I should have held onto my UA-5 for this sort of thing.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2014, 07:45:33 AM by Big Muff »
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Offline Matt Quinn

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Re: 24 bit newbie question
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2014, 11:53:04 AM »
Out of curiosity - why would you do this? I see 24 bit vinyl rips on torrent sites all the time, but it doesn't make sense to me. Vinyl as I understand it has a maximum dynamic range of about 60 DB, and 16 bit audio can accommodate a 96 DB range. What's the benefit of ripping to 24 bit files? Isn't it just wasting space?
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Re: 24 bit newbie question
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2014, 01:01:33 PM »
i never do 24 bit live.
What's the benefit of ripping to 24 bit files? Isn't it just wasting space?

A 16 bit dynamic range is entirely sufficient for capturing and playing back the full dynamic range of any LP.  It's also sufficient for playing back any live recording we make.  All the sounds we'd care to reproduce, ranging from audible stuff buried well below the noise floor up to the highest signal level will fit within a 16bit range in a WAV file.

The usefulness of recording a 24bit file instead of a 16 bit one is mostly in live recording scenarios which involve a wide dynamic range- music which gets very loud at some points, recorded in an environment which is very quiet at other points.  That's because it allows for a somewhat wider tolerance in setting the recording levels.  The highest level produced by the live performance is not always fully predictable or certain and the record levels can be set lower to be certain of avoiding the possibility of clipping. 

It's important to understand that even though the file format may store 16bits or 24 bits of information, all the sound we want to reproduce will rarely fill more than 12 or 13 bits at most.  If we set the recording levels correctly, in the resulting file there will always be numbers representing lots of random noise at the bottom and zeros representing unused range at the top.  We just need to adjust the recording level to fit it comfortably in that range and a 24bit file format makes that easier by providing a lot of excess space.  That excess will never be used otherwise.  It's also important to understand that the finest ADCs on the planet are capable at best of encoding the equivalent of maybe 22bits or so of actual range, and then only if the the recording signal chain feeding it is capable of providing such a hugely wide range.  With the equipment tapers use, we're doing really really well if our gear is capable of actually capturing the equivalent of about 18 or 19bits of range.  24bit file storage far exceeds the encoding capability of any ADC and the decoding capacity of any DAC. 

Many of the inexpensive handheld "24bit capable" recorders used around here are not capable of recording the equivalent of even 16bits of actual range.  At best our good recorders may capture 17 or 18, perhaps 19 bits worth of actual information which gets stored within the 24bit files they write to the memory card.  I record 24bit files because that extra bit or two is worth it to me.  I have no qualms with dithering that down to 16bits later after editing as I can fit everything comfortably within a 16bit file.

If ripping LPs, the signal level to be encoded is far more predictable than live music recording, so it's not difficult to set levels so that everything fits comfortably in the 16 bit file straight off, with less wasted file space.

None of what I wrote above has anything to do with a particular 'sound' of different equipment, signal chains, ADCs, etc.  The only way to make decisions on that basis is to make recordings through each and critically compare them.  An assumption that the "24bit' equipment or mode of operation will always sound better than the "16bit" equipment or mode of operation is flawed.  One may sound better than the other for lots of other reasons, but the dynamic range of the music will most  certainly fit within a 16bit file format.
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Offline Matt Quinn

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Re: 24 bit newbie question
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2014, 11:43:28 AM »
Yes, that is exactly in line with my thoughts here. I can at least understand people who like the sound of vinyl ripping it to 16 bit audio, even though I think it's crazy. Ripping it to 24 bit just seems wasteful and pointless.
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Re: 24 bit newbie question
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2014, 12:29:36 PM »
Well, it doesn't hurt anything to store them as 24bit files, other than taking up more storage space than necessary.
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Offline edtyre

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Re: 24 bit newbie question
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2014, 10:49:47 PM »
Out of curiosity - why would you do this? I see 24 bit vinyl rips on torrent sites all the time, but it doesn't make sense to me. Vinyl as I understand it has a maximum dynamic range of about 60 DB, and 16 bit audio can accommodate a 96 DB range. What's the benefit of ripping to 24 bit files? Isn't it just wasting space?
I have been preaching this for years. I ripped 300 vinyls phono stage > ad2k > r-44 > 16/44.1 wav. I tried 24/96 at first, then compared the two and found no difference at all.
Editing clicks and static in 16 bit has worked out fine too. A friend converts vinyl to 2x DSD and calls it ultra hi rez :-) I have a 200 mb file for an LP he has a 10 gb file and they both sound the same.
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Offline Big Muff

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Re: 24 bit newbie question
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2014, 07:13:52 PM »
You guys make all the sense but the site I'm a member of is blind. Or deaf.
There's a lot of rips posted there with some high end gear. So perhaps if you have a 25k stereo you can afford to hear the difference?
For what its worth, both 16 and 24 bit sets are usually posted, I have to do 24bit to play ball with these guys.

You know what's funny, I've actually seen a few people use a microscope to set the rake on their needle. Perfecto

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Re: 24 bit newbie question
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2014, 09:29:08 PM »
... and they both sound the same.

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Re: 24 bit newbie question
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2014, 10:28:49 AM »

I have to do 24bit to play ball with these guys.



You should explain to them that they are just wasting disc space. It doesn't matter what kind of system you have, 16 bits is enough to accurately reproduce everything in a vinyl recording. You're just using a bigger bag to carry the same amount of stuff.
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Offline Big Muff

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Re: 24 bit newbie question
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2014, 10:44:48 AM »
Yeah, I tried to describe that in the last post that they simply prefer 24bit.
also allowing the optional 16bit sets to be posted really makes it no use trying to change their way.

However the info you all have supplied in this thread is valuable food for thought

I think I would share this info but don't want to get banned

« Last Edit: December 18, 2014, 10:46:42 AM by Big Muff »
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Offline Fried Chicken Boy

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Re: 24 bit newbie question
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2014, 12:50:53 PM »
I think I would share this info but don't want to get banned

The same way they used to burn people at the stake for claiming the earth was round.  Stubbornness will trump all the facts regardless of how valid they are. :)

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Re: 24 bit newbie question
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2014, 12:52:55 PM »
Let the actual experts do the convincing.  If if comes up, just point them to the excellent explanatory articles by people such as Dan Lavery.  Dan is highly regarded and does an excellent job explaining not just sampling theory, but the real-word implications of applied electrical engineering.  One of those real-world implications is that more is not always better- he makes convincing arguments that super high rates like 192kHz inherently have more error than more reasonable and entirely sufficient rates such as 96kHz (for me 48kHz is sufficient!) You can download PDFs of his papers from his website- http://www.lavryengineering.com/lavry-white-papers/

I read one of Dan's applied engineering explanations once in which he described how additional bits can also be used to reduce distortions, but the distortions in question are already well down in the parts-per-million range.  Something about distortion manifesting in the digital realm not only as random noise below the noise-floor at the bottom of the dynamic range (as in the analog world), but also as non-linear distortions.  Something of a parallel to the need for analog anti-aliasing filtering to remove all signal above half-Niquist based on sample-rate perhaps? That arcane discussion was above my head, but the take away for me was that it is way down in something like in the .0001% range (might have even had an additional zero in there), significantly lower than anything else in the analog LP part of the chain.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2014, 12:57:12 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

 

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