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Author Topic: DPA Stereo Recording Comparisions - archived from old website  (Read 5773 times)

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Offline voltronic

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DPA Stereo Recording Comparisions - archived from old website
« on: January 14, 2023, 09:05:49 PM »
There was a great resource available on the old DPA website where the same performance of a pro chamber choir was recorded with various mics and configs. It was taken down for some inexplicable reason when DPA redesigned their site several years ago, but I found that I had saved a PDF of the page and all of the FLAC files back in 2015. You can download the entire thing here:

https://mega.nz/folder/rzphXKaR#M-rtRGvsekWOsBP2TJtwtw

Note that I added a couple files of my own: 4a was my attempt to match the 4060 as close as I could to the 4006 with EQ, and 4b was the same thing but done with iZotope RX EQ Match. I did this a long time ago and could probably do better now, but you'll get the idea.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2023, 02:52:16 PM by voltronic »
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Offline EmRR

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Re: DPA Stereo Recording Comparisions - archived from old website
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2023, 08:55:06 AM »
I remember seeing this, good save!
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Re: DPA Stereo Recording Comparisions - archived from old website
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2023, 01:21:41 AM »
I found that I had saved a PDF of the page and all of the FLAC files back in 2015. You can download the entire thing here:
^^Great save! I found this and the Schoeps website sampler to be really helpful a number of times.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: DPA Stereo Recording Comparisions - archived from old website
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2023, 11:56:31 AM »
Thanks, trying to recall exactly what was in there.  I'll try downloading via a different browser at home tonight at home, as its not working with Chrome on this computer.

Note that I added a couple files of my own: 4b was my attempt to match the 4060 as close as I could to the 4006 with EQ, and 4b was the same thing but done with iZotope RX EQ Match. I did this a long time ago and could probably do better now, but you'll get the idea.

Typo there? Is the first manually EQ matched version 4a?
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Offline voltronic

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Re: DPA Stereo Recording Comparisions - archived from old website
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2023, 12:10:55 PM »
Thanks, trying to recall exactly what was in there.  I'll try downloading via a different browser at home tonight at home, as its not working with Chrome on this computer.

Note that I added a couple files of my own: 4b was my attempt to match the 4060 as close as I could to the 4006 with EQ, and 4b was the same thing but done with iZotope RX EQ Match. I did this a long time ago and could probably do better now, but you'll get the idea.

Typo there? Is the first manually EQ matched version 4a?
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Offline SMsound

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Re: DPA Stereo Recording Comparisions - archived from old website
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2023, 09:28:53 AM »
There was a great resource available on the old DPA website where the same performance of a pro chamber choir was recorded with various mics and configs. It was taken down for some inexplicable reason when DPA redesigned their site several years ago, but I found that I had saved a PDF of the page and all of the FLAC files back in 2015. You can download the entire thing here:

https://send.zcyph.cc/download/05e4c04ff052b93d/#LwW96bGM40wTuhTHAfkWtA

This link expires after 100 downloads or 365 days, but I will gladly share it again if it becomes unavailable.
Could I ask you to renew the link? Recording a small concert tonight and realized that I no longer have a local copy -- still kicking around ideas for which arrays I'll run with tonight...
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Re: DPA Stereo Recording Comparisions - archived from old website
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2023, 12:41:00 AM »
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Offline voltronic

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Re: DPA Stereo Recording Comparisions - archived from old website
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2023, 02:52:58 PM »
Uploaded to a permanent share in OP and below. Fun fact: you can play FLAC files on MEGA without downloading.

https://mega.nz/folder/rzphXKaR#M-rtRGvsekWOsBP2TJtwtw
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: DPA Stereo Recording Comparisions - archived from old website
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2023, 04:22:28 PM »
Excellent. Thanks voltronic.

FYI for anyone curious about extending the above comparison to include a couple stereo microphone arrays consisting of more than two microphones-

I think it was this DPA web page (although could've been a similar set of samples once hosted at the Schoeps site) that previously allowed for streaming of more than one set of stereo pair samples simultaneously and in sync.  That made for an excellent way of additionally comparing two of the most commonly used four channel stereo microphone array configurations used by tapers: AB + X/Y in the center; and AB + ORTF in the center. 

Folks downloading this file set can do the same by loading all of these 2-channel stereo files into your multitrack editor of choice, each as a separate stereo track, making certain the start of all files are aligned, and soloing the pair (or combined pairs) of interest.  Switch between pairs by switching soloing between the various tracks.  Solo both an AB set and XY set at the same time to hear a four channel configuration of X/Y cardioids placed in the center between AB omnis.  Mute that X/Y pair and solo an ORTF pair along with an AB pair to hear the combination of ORTF in the middle between AB omnis.

As I recall, this provided a good example of the AB+XY sound, which is the primary four channel stereo arrangement I recommend to tapers wishing to try running more than two microphones with the intention of mixing them to 2-channel stereo.  It also made it easy to swap the XY pair in the center for an ORTF pair to compare those two different 4-channel arrays, as well as comparing these 4-channel configurations against the 2 and 3-channel configurations as provided (AB, ORTF, XY and Decca Tree). 

Listen, make up your own mind and decide for yourself.  When I originally did this years ago it confirmed my general preference for ORTF over XY when used by themselves, yet for XY in the center over ORTF in the center when used in combination with AB spaced omnis. Recognizing that I frequently recommend AB+XY here at TS as the first go-to 4-channel microphone configuration interested folks should try, this is an easy way to clearly hear the differences and get a general impression via a well made comp that eliminates most extraneous variables.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: DPA Stereo Recording Comparisions - archived from old website
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2023, 04:59:10 PM »
I plan to download and do that listening test again to check my memory and biases!

Here are a few other combinations I did not try way back when, which may be informative:

ORTF + XY in the center (my take on this is that ideally a standard near-spaced pair such as ORTF, DIN, NOS, etc, should be spaced twice as wide when a single microphone or coincident pair is used in the center.  Without doubling that spacing this arrangement may or may not work as well as it could)

AB + ORTF + XY (this is somewhat similar to the primary 6-channel configuration I recommend, but likely not similar enough to work correctly for the same reasons as above but with even more potential complications.  Ideally the ORTF pair should be spaced twice as wide, and the AB pair two to three times as wide as it is here).

Decca tree + XY (except for the presence of the center omni of the decca tree, this would be closer to the four channel configuration I most recommend due to the omnis being spaced wider.  The presence of the center omni would probably not pose a problem except for it being positioned 30cm forward of the X/Y pair rather than being coincident with it, which may create some problems here.  If truly coincident with the XY pair, the presence of the omni would simply change the XY cardioids into something more like XY subcards).

For reference, the baseline 4 microphone array I most recommend is AB omnis spaced ~1-2 meters apart with a coincident center pair (MS preferred over XY) placed about 20cm forward of the omnis.  When omnis are not appropriate, substitute a directional pair for the omnis, spaced about 60cm and angled +/-45deg, or angle them PAS and adjust the spacing between them based on the resulting angle - increasing spacing for a PAS angle narrower than +/- 45 deg.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2023, 05:05:39 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline voltronic

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Re: DPA Stereo Recording Comparisions - archived from old website
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2023, 08:15:19 PM »
I did exactly those sorts of comparisons with these tracks when I first grabbed these files a few years back. Very informative.

For my ears, I don't think ORTF needs much more localization where adding anything in the middle would help. As you say, the outer mics should be wider to use a central x/y. Mixing x/y even at low level with ORTF just makes the sound more mono to my ears - the image starts to collapse.

Also, FWIW- the venerable Tony Faulkner in his 4-mic array of 37 or 47 cm wide subcards with flanking 62 cm omnis always advised that the level of the two pairs is almost never equal; one pair or the other will dominate depending on multiple other variables of the room / ensemble / genre / distance / height / etc. Just throwing that out there so people don't hear a weird sound with everything mixed at the same level and thinking a given combination is not going to work. You need to experiment with varying levels of different pairs.
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Offline SMsound

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Re: DPA Stereo Recording Comparisions - archived from old website
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2023, 05:20:51 AM »
.
Thanks for the new link!

Also, am I remembering wrong, or did you also post a link a while back to an interactive website where it was possible to click on various stereo arrays recording (maybe) piano in a nice hall recorded with (maybe) DPA's, and it would play the sample? Possibly made in Japan? I was sure I had a link to something like this saved and can no longer find it.

I could swear I had seen something like this in the last year or two.
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Re: DPA Stereo Recording Comparisions - archived from old website
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2023, 08:26:06 AM »
This is what you're talking about. It's one of the best comparative recording websites I know of. Mostly done with DPA mics, some Schoeps also. The Experiment of Recording category is what you're looking for.

http://kazuyanagae.com/
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Re: DPA Stereo Recording Comparisions - archived from old website
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2023, 08:44:07 AM »
This is what you're talking about. It's one of the best comparative recording websites I know of. Mostly done with DPA mics, some Schoeps also. The Experiment of Recording category is what you're looking for.

http://kazuyanagae.com/

^^Awesome -- that's the one -- thanks!
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Re: DPA Stereo Recording Comparisions - archived from old website
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2023, 08:57:05 AM »
I did exactly those sorts of comparisons with these tracks when I first grabbed these files a few years back. Very informative.

For my ears, I don't think ORTF needs much more localization where adding anything in the middle would help. As you say, the outer mics should be wider to use a central x/y. Mixing x/y even at low level with ORTF just makes the sound more mono to my ears - the image starts to collapse.

Also, FWIW- the venerable Tony Faulkner in his 4-mic array of 37 or 47 cm wide subcards with flanking 62 cm omnis always advised that the level of the two pairs is almost never equal; one pair or the other will dominate depending on multiple other variables of the room / ensemble / genre / distance / height / etc. Just throwing that out there so people don't hear a weird sound with everything mixed at the same level and thinking a given combination is not going to work. You need to experiment with varying levels of different pairs.

I fully agree on both counts.  I got some strong push back here at TS a few months ago when I posted that ORTF (and other common 2-ch near-spaced stereo configs such as DIN, NOS, etc) is optimized for use as a two microphone stereo configuration and the addition of a third microphone in the center without increasing the spacing and/or angle of the original pair will tend to produce a result that is more center heavy with reduced stereo width at best, and at worst may have constructive/destructive interference effects from the overly correlated microphone channels being summed together.  I'm thinking this might serve as an example of this.  Will need to give a listen.

And yes, adjustment of the relative level of each pair in the mix represents the minimal amount of mixing work needed and is critical to a good outcome.  Loading the files into an multitrack editor makes that easy in this comparison.  More advanced mixing approaches for things recorded this way might include corrective EQ of each individual pair, overall EQ of the resulting sum of the two sources, and beyond that, EQing the two slightly differently in a differential way such that one contributes more in a particular range than the other. 

Also, am I remembering wrong, or did you also post a link a while back to an interactive website where it was possible to click on various stereo arrays recording (maybe) piano in a nice hall recorded with (maybe) DPA's, and it would play the sample? Possibly made in Japan? I was sure I had a link to something like this saved and can no longer find it.

This one?
http://kazuyanagae.com/

[Edit- oops, ignore that last part, I was in mid post and walked away for a bit as the last two posts above were made]
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline goodcooker

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Re: DPA Stereo Recording Comparisions - archived from old website
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2023, 02:16:10 PM »
I got some strong push back here at TS

It's okay to be wrong sometimes.

When one member of the forum takes one path another member may take a different one. Your wording in that conversation was advising people against doing something that I do all the time with fantastic results. So I contradicted you. And I probably will again.

To create a cautionary tale against a very common practice based on theory is not in keeping with the hobbyist ethos of this site.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: DPA Stereo Recording Comparisions - archived from old website
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2023, 06:47:53 PM »
It's always okay to be wrong as long as one is open to discussing it, understanding why, admitting so, and working toward making it right. 

I've no problem with contradictory approaches and opinions, and consider them an opportunity to reconsider and better explain my position, how and why I arrived at it.. with the potential for expanding my own understanding and learning something new in the process.  Likewise, I encourage folks here to do their own thing - do what you like and use whatever methods get you the results you want, as long as its not unsafe or threatening the freedoms of the rest of us.  If anything my own oddball approaches to recording are quite left field compared to the standard way of doing things.

At the same time, I always seek to base what I'm doing and how I evaluate things in basic fundamental principles that underlie everything we are doing.  Understanding that is key to me.  If I can connect the dots in this way, it all makes far more sense and potential solutions to a problem become apparent, including those which may be unusual but fit the core principles. As a consequence I and hopefully others following along will be more easily able to avoid pitfalls which might otherwise go unforeseen.  I find this approach, in combination with verifying or refuting things by actually trying them, makes for the surest path to success.

Also, I tend to write my posts here at TS in a way intended to address a general audience of tapers and whoever else may be reading, as much as I'm replying directly to any one person here.  I try to convey information this way because that's what I originally came here looking for long ago.

If you read my posts carefully, you'll notice I rarely say "just do it this way.." or "that won't work", without explanation of why. I instead try to explain why its more or less likely to work successfully, and anchor that in something of a framework. That takes a lot of effort and often a lot of explanation, frequently resulting lengthy posts.  That seems to annoy some folks, yet it is important to me to try and communicate these ideas clearly and with justification.


For example, I don't dispute that ORTF or whatever with a third mic in the middle has worked great for you.  But I will hot hesitate to talk about what the implications of that are, what is going on by doing so, where it might be problematic, and how it is likely to be improved.  If you go back and read what I wrote, I think I said it would be more optimal to increase the standard ORTF spacing when using a third mic in the center.  Not that it wouldn't work without doing so, only that it might have some potential for problems, could potentially be better, and then probably went on to discuss the details of why.

I'll go farther.. I can certainly see how a third mic in the middle may improve on ORTF in certain situations, yet I still hold that it could be further improved while reducing the potential for problems.  Taping scenarios tend to be strange situations in the recording world, which is why unusual approaches can work that otherwise would seem odd.  ORTF has a rather wide angle between microphones that tends to place the mics farther off-axis to the source than other near-spaced configurations when recording from a position that is not close to the stage.  A third mic in the center will likely help with that.  I think it could still be made better though, and will continue explaining how and why.  I look forward to those discussions and hope you do too. Feel free to contradict, but follow up and defend your position.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: DPA Stereo Recording Comparisions - archived from old website
« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2023, 06:54:18 PM »
To create a cautionary tale against a very common practice based on theory is not in keeping with the hobbyist ethos of this site.

I find the above statement confusing.  ORTF + a third center mics is in no way common practice nor based on theory.. other than the potential improvement of the third mic being more on-axis to the source. 

Do what you like and hobby on!
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

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Re: DPA Stereo Recording Comparisions - archived from old website
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2023, 12:11:40 AM »
To create a cautionary tale against a very common practice based on theory is not in keeping with the hobbyist ethos of this site.

I find the above statement confusing.  ORTF + a third center mics is in no way common practice nor based on theory.. other than the potential improvement of the third mic being more on-axis to the source. 

Do what you like and hobby on!

You misinterpreted my statement.  Maybe it should have read "to use theory to support the creation of a cautionary tale against the use of a common practice (near spaced mics with a single center mic)"

As much as you like to "explain your position" and do so often, ad nauseum, in hopes to help others find the info that you originally came here looking for I try to do the same just in more understandable, relatable and practical ways. I came to this hobbyist taper site filled with people who record live music performances to learn from the people who were already doing what I wanted to do.

There is no way you could be blind to the idea that if a newcomer came to this site to find out about running a third center mic in the middle of their NOS pair that after you responded (as you inevitably do when anyone brings up any topic related to mic configs) with a long, often cautionary post using the words "problems" "implications" "consequences" then launching into how it could have "destructive interference effects" and more may likely be scared off by all the possible pitfalls.
.
I'm not going to try to tell you how to communicate but I will continue to sometimes say things like "don't listen to Gutbucket and his long ass ramble about correlation and phase" when I think your verbosity has gone too far. I'm not singling you out or attacking you but I will sometimes provide an alternate view and reassure others that obsessing over phase correlation and interaction of multiple mics is not necessary.
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Re: DPA Stereo Recording Comparisions - archived from old website
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2023, 10:00:06 AM »
This is what you're talking about. It's one of the best comparative recording websites I know of. Mostly done with DPA mics, some Schoeps also. The Experiment of Recording category is what you're looking for.

http://kazuyanagae.com/


And one more similar site that compares a ton of stereo arrays on piano with nice mics (mainly Schoeps MK2H, unlike the mainly DPA recordings in the previous link):
http://soundmedia.jp/nuaudktua/

(click the links under pianos/composers to load the comparisons -- the YT video on the main page is just an intro)

It's been posted on TS before, but for some reason I can never find any of these links when I'm looking...
« Last Edit: July 20, 2023, 10:02:22 AM by SMsound »
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Re: DPA Stereo Recording Comparisions - archived from old website
« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2023, 02:03:01 PM »
Goodcooker, I guess that's where we differ. I have never advised people to not listen to you nor disregard what you post here.  I respect most of our members here more than that, particularly long time members with a history of strong contributions here such as yourself.  Yes, please do provide an alternative view, I sincerely welcome that engagement.. but allow folks to make up their own minds about the value of what each of us posts here.  They don't need hand holding, and there is no need to cast stones.

I've experienced phase interaction problems myself mixing together multiple microphone channels that were positioned too close to each other without sufficient angle between them.  The problem is not imaginary.  It doesn't occur at all if only using two microphone channels that won't be mixed together, so it doesn't effect most tapers running typical two channel recording rigs.  But it does become something to be aware of when mixing microphone channels together, increasingly so as more microphone channels are involved. I frequently hear it in attempts at doing so.  It's good and fortunate you've not encountered these problems yourself, yet that doesn't mean such problems don't exist and won't be a problem for others.

People tape because they enjoy doing so. Newcomers to TS generally keep it simple.  They don't typically start out recording using arrays of multiple microphones. Many tapers continue taping that way their entire taping career and that's totally fine, even admirable.  Someone who really knows what they are doing and makes really great recordings that way consistently gets a lot of respect from me.  It takes serious taper skill and ability.  I love it when a simple two channel recording is as good as what I can achieve with a complicated setup.  But informing folks who are interested enough to post here asking about more complex approaches about potential problems that didn't exist with simpler recording arrangements is important and part of what make TS unique and valuable.  Its not scaring new folks away who won't be recording using these more complex methods.

A standard near-spaced stereo microphone config that has a center microphone added to it is not a standard or very common practice.  Granted it is something one sometimes sees in the taper world.  I get why.  Its a practical combination that solves some problems that aren't as much of an issue outside of the strange endeavor of concert taping from the audience.  It uses the same mic mount one was using previously.  It makes a lot of sense in terms of practical setup.  But its no longer optimized in the same way that hte named near-spaced two channel microphone configurations were when originally developed.  Adding another microphone disrupts that optimization and to become fully optimized again requires altering things a bit.  Sure it can work without doing that.  Sure you might make better recordings than you were making previously without that addition.
 My point is that it can probably be made better still while also minimizing the potential problems.  Don't take my word for it. Try increasing the spacing of your standard near-spaced pair when you add a 3rd mic in the center.  You may like it.  You may not.  Share your experience here. Just don't publicly dismiss the suggestion that it can work better and reduce potential problems (which you thankfully aren't encountering) without actually trying it. [Edit- maybe you have tried that.  If so I'd like to hear about the details and your thoughts about it]
« Last Edit: July 20, 2023, 02:08:52 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline voltronic

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Re: DPA Stereo Recording Comparisions - archived from old website
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2023, 06:03:17 PM »
Goodcooker, please take your confusing beef with Gutbucket elsewhere.
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