Topic: Recording 4-8 tracks simultainiously with a usb audio interface

[intpseeker]

This is probably one of those dumb questions, but if your audio interface has 4-8 inputs, are you sending 4-8 individual tracks through the usb to the computer or is it two tracks? I have been reading all the promo materials out there, and it is probably simple, but I can't figure it out.

Also what are folks using for 4-8 track usb audio interfaces?

[ghellquist]

There are no dumb questions. You might not know the answer to it, but we all have more or less knowledge.

Each input is sent individually to the computer and recorded on its own track in the software. This allows you to process each input signal by itself and then to mix them together (setting volume and stereo panning individually). In order to do this you need a program that can handle multiple channels, fortunately a lot of them do that (Cubase, Sonar, ProTools LE, Samplitude, Audacity, Reaper, ... ) .

I guess people are using the interface they own. There are a lot of them to choose from with on the market, you probably need to be a bit more specific in order to get useable advice on what to use. Some people use the inbuilt mic preamps, some not. Some require really high sound quality, some not and are more constrained by costs. Some want the interface to control the listening as well having a volume control, others are using external equipment for that. And so on it goes.

General advice, your first buy should be a decent quality second hand interface. You learn a lot from that and once you are quite certain what you want you can sell it again and not loose any money (interfaces fall quickly in price once out of the store).

Gunnar

[JackHenry]

Are you recording to Windows PC or an Apple? What OS are you using XP, Vist, OSx etc.

[heyitsmejess]

General advice, your first buy should be a decent quality second hand interface. You learn a lot from that and once you are quite certain what you want you can sell it again and not loose any money (interfaces fall quickly in price once out of the store)

what would some examples be, on the lower end of things.  it would be going into a windows machine, and require no more than 10 tracks.

ive wanted to jump into this for sometime (the band i work for gives me access, and i wish to use it).

thanks in advance!

[intpseeker]

My need is to be able to record amplified acoustic guitars (a few), amplified violin, bass (probably electric), and 2-3 vocals. Folk-rock, more towards the rootsy side of things might describe it, although the fiddle player has Hendrix as a role model and plays through an effects pedal. 

I want to have a dedicated PC laptop running XP. I would like a degree of portability, but this would probably be more a 'studio' oriented setup. I like the live 2 channel sound I can get for them from the equipment I already have, but need to have better control over the individual instrument and vocal tracks to get the mix I want.

I got tangled up in looking at the boxes, seeing the usb, but seeing a L-R xlr output, which might go to monitors, and reading features that talked about stereo output. My fear was that I'd get the same stereo 2 channel mix that I'm already getting where I can't pump up the vocals without pumping up the instruments.

Size than $$ is the deciding factor, after quality. Preamps would be good, but I have the apogee. Compression would be a plus as the lead vocalist is very difficult to get levels on. A little reverb might be another plus, but for the most part, clean signal, stability and doable of post production is what I believe I'm looking for.

Thanks for the info and letting me think out loud.

[ghellquist]

So. USB, reasonably portable, 8 inputs.

That sort of narrows down the choice quite a bit. I am no expert on the market and there has to be about a million different ones to choose from. My personal experience is with firewire units, then there are quite a lot more to choose from. I cannot enough recommend the Fireface 800 I currently run -- getting a fireface interface for your laptop is not expensive in any way. Rambling on ...

Now, one example, never seen in real world, M-Audio Fasttrack Ultra 8R  (why do they name things that funny). Quite impressive feature set and not in the esoteric price category.
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/FastTrackUltra8R.html

There are a few things to look for in the specs. Like:
- number of channels (they generally give you max 8 inputs, any more you need one more box with digital out, Behringer ADA8000 is a perfect starting box then).
- some kind of built-in mixer functionality to create monitor mixes when needed
- headphone outputs and such
- compatibility with mac/pc and or special programs (like the ProTools M-powered software package).

The built-in effects of these boxes may look like a good idea on paper, but in real world they are not really worth that much.

The most important aspect though is never shown in manufacturers data sheets -- stability with your hardware. Some of the historical boxes never really worked. Do check up on forums and do try ask for a return policy when buying.

This might turn out to be a long search to find the perfect match.
My advice still is for you to go for a decent quality used box, if necessary adding a fireface interface to your computer. This will allow you to learn a lot on how to choose the interface of your dreams then selling your first buy with little or no loss.

// Gunnar

[heyitsmejess]

alright....another question (thanks for the input by the way!!!)

if one were to buy the behringet ADA8000, what would you need to go from the interface to the computer?

it appears to have a TOSLINK optical ADAT out, but no firewire or usb.

once again, thanks in advance!

[TNJazz]

I would recommend using a firewire interface rather than USB.  While USB 2 is technically faster than fw400, it operates in a burst mode that is not ideal for audio transmission.

You'll be able to achieve higher track counts and probably a higher degree of reliability with firewire.

do you need preamps as well, or are you planning to take line level outs from another source (external preamps, console, etc)?

there are a ton of options out there, depending on your specific needs.

[nic]

I would recommend using a firewire interface rather than USB.  While USB 2 is technically faster than fw400, it operates in a burst mode that is not ideal for audio transmission.

You'll be able to achieve higher track counts and probably a higher degree of reliability with firewire.

do you need preamps as well, or are you planning to take line level outs from another source (external preamps, console, etc)?

there are a ton of options out there, depending on your specific needs.

agreed.
USB is probably the worst type of interface to use for audio.

[ghellquist]

if one were to buy the behringet ADA8000, what would you need to go from the interface to the computer?

I would see the ADA8000 as an expansion to your sound card. Used that way it adds 8 more channels to the ones already in the sound card. The connection between the two is optical ADAT. That is same optical cable used for SPDIF but a slightly different protocol -- a box that only knows about SPDIF will not understand ADAT (some are switchable).

// Gunnar

[rePat]

I'm venturing into this arena myself, with an Alesis Multimix 8 Firewire.  Now, if I only had time to sit down and play with it.  I've heard good things about Reaper (software) and am going to try it, because Cubase LE looked a little cumbersome.  The mixer is nice and compact, has decent pre's, and can be had for <$300.  It's also available in a 12 ch, IIRC.

Pat

[intpseeker]

Is firewire firewire, whether on a mac or pc? I know there is 4 and 6 pin. Is this a consideration?

while everything I own is usb, I like the firewire units for features, at least on paper.

[TNJazz]

yes, firewire is firewire.

4 pin is simply unpowered, which means the device can't be bus powered and you have to use an AC adapter.

6 pin and 9 pin will supply power, so the computer can potentially bus-power the device eliminating the need for AC (technically).

Most Windows laptops are 4 pin integrated.  Most Macs are 6 and 9.  The protocol is the same either way though.

If your machine has available expansion, you can always buy an add on firewire card of course.

[Chris K]

if your audio interface has 4-8 inputs, are you sending 4-8 individual tracks through the usb to the computer or is it two tracks?

as for your original post...it all depends on your interface. the interface may have 2 mic inputs, 2 TRS inputs, digi in, but it may only pass a stereo signal. you need to look for a unit that specifies simultaneous recording or pass through of multiple tracks.

for example the edirol UA-5 has two mic ins, and two rca ins and a two stereo digi ins, but it cannot pass 6 separate feeds into your computer. it will only pass a stereo pair. on the other hand, the M-Audio Firewire 1814 (and i use this a a reference since I own one) has 2 xlr inputs,, 8 TRS inputs, adat in (8 track), spdif in, and you can theoretically feed your firewire equipped pc/mac with 18 channels.

good luck and have fun

[intpseeker]

if your audio interface has 4-8 inputs, are you sending 4-8 individual tracks through the usb to the computer or is it two tracks?

as for your original post...it all depends on your interface. the interface may have 2 mic inputs, 2 TRS inputs, digi in, but it may only pass a stereo signal. you need to look for a unit that specifies simultaneous recording or pass through of multiple tracks.

for example the edirol UA-5 has two mic ins, and two rca ins and a two stereo digi ins, but it cannot pass 6 separate feeds into your computer. it will only pass a stereo pair. on the other hand, the M-Audio Firewire 1814 (and i use this a a reference since I own one) has 2 xlr inputs,, 8 TRS inputs, adat in (8 track), spdif in, and you can theoretically feed your firewire equipped pc/mac with 18 channels.

good luck and have fun

Thanks for the info. This is the sticking point. When I read the info about a unit, I'm not sure what I should be looking for in all the I/O details they give you. Some actually say, as above, that it will record 2 channel stereo pair.

I just read the promo info on the M-Audio Firewire 1814, and I'm still not sure which part tells me it will record 4-8 channels separately.

I read all the documentation and fell pretty freaking dumb that I can't seem to suss out how many discrete channels will be passed to the computer.

[live2496]

I'm pretty sure that the issue with the UA-5 is that it's USB and a bit older technology.

Firewire devices can carry more channels so you should be ok.

Another thing to consider is the RME multiface and hdsp cardbus card. If you can pick up a used one they are great. No mic pre's but all channels are usable at the same time. With rock solid performance.

[ghellquist]

I just read the promo info on the M-Audio Firewire 1814, and I'm still not sure which part tells me it will record 4-8 channels separately.

Forget the really old stuff like the UA5. The 1814 is modern with USB 2.0. Plenty of bandwidht there.
The Firewire 1814 can transfer 8 signals to the computer at the time. Add an extra box with ADAT (exampel Behringer ADA8000) and you can transfer 16 signals in to the computer. All at the same time. Now, if you add one more box with an SPDIF signal, you might be able to get 2 more channels at the same time. That is 18 concurrent signals at the same time.
There are however two things that has to be true in order to get 18 concurrent channels (each into its own track).
 - max sample rate 48kHz. Reason is that on an ADAT cable you get only 4 channels (not 8 ) on 88.2 and 96kHz. And with this box, if you run at 192kHz the ADAT will not work at all.
 - if you want to run both 2 inputs via SPDIF and 8 inputs via ADAT (plus the 8 analog) you will probably need to synchronize the clock in a bit special way. Reason is that most 2 channel boxes with SPDIF output lacks the synch input so they need to be set as master. (Now all this is very special, simply forget it for the moment).

How many channels your computer can handle is another thing. There is a lot of interacting factors here, especially around exactly how the USB2.0 interface is done in the computer. Older computers, say more than 3 years old, have more problems than modern ones. When running Windows there is also a lot of talk about problems with Vista, but then again some people run it just fine.

Complicated, indeed. Good questions though. Keep them coming.

// Gunnar

[illconditioned]

I'm also looking for a USB device, ideally four or eight channels.  Preamp would be great, but line in would be fine too.

Up till now I've been using two alternatives.  One is the Digigram VX440, which is a PCMCIA/Cardbus card.  This is great, but a lot of newer machines don't have this interface.  Another is an older Emagic/EMI card with six analog ins, 2 analog outs.  But the ADC on this card are not great.

Still seeking modern alternatives.
  Richard

[heyitsmejess]

this thread is a gold mine of info that i havent been able to find on here.

perhaps this could go in the all-inclusive FYI thread up top....

[intpseeker]

I was in my local GC looking for mic adapters without luck, and asked about audio interfaces, and what you looked for to indicate the number of discrete channels that would be passed through to the recorder/computer.

One guy pointed out a few (they had most of the name brand ones in stock), and corrected himself saying "Wait, these only sends two channels, but this one, a large presonus sends more".
So I asked how many and how do you know that.

Well, he wasn't sure how many, maybe four, and he knew it was two channel or more than two channel because of the training they had received. When we were looking at the specs, he wasn't able to point out which factoid tipped one off to the number of channels passed through.

I still wonder if I'm making this harder than it really is.

[Chris K]

if you are locked into a usb device, you may want to look at the MOTU 828mkII USB version. But I think you would be better served with firewire as others have stated. The availability to sidechain a firewire drive is sublime, especially since you should not really record onto the drive that has your operating system on it.

are you looking for a device for a laptop for a mobile rig, or for your desktop?

[intpseeker]

if you are locked into a usb device, you may want to look at the MOTU 828mkII USB version. But I think you would be better served with firewire as others have stated. The availability to sidechain a firewire drive is sublime, especially since you should not really record onto the drive that has your operating system on it.

are you looking for a device for a laptop for a mobile rig, or for your desktop?

I would like to go laptop, not to record shows, but to be able to more easily set up a portable studio, where the group wants to record, and get individual tracks for each vocal/instrument that then can be mastered.

Is firewire a problem with a pc laptop? I think of firewire and I think of mac.

[Chris K]

well, i use a mac which has a 6pin firewire so no worries there. if you use a pc laptop i dont think it will be 6 pin and probably 4 pin. if your laptop has a cardbus/pcmcia slot, then you can use a firewire card like the one in the pic below and you should be fine. in fact before i got my macbook i used a dell d600 with the pcmcia card in the photo and it worked fine.

[intpseeker]

This one mentions routing discrete channels to the recorder:

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/NRV10.html


This one doesn't say it directly, but does mention sending stereo pairs :

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/ProFire2626.html

Ok...what is a stereo pair? I think I want the vocal separate from the instrument, separate from another vocal, etc.

[ghellquist]

Some notes on this.

First, most multichannel interfaces today sends each channel separarately. This goes for both USB and Firewire. One marker to look for is that it uses USB2 as the older USB has bandwidth for only 2 in and 2 out. Do check out some alternatives and then come back here and we can guide you. Start out with the assumption that it will work and once you have a short-list come back for verification.

The people at GC are not necessarily very knowledgeable. I would not put too much weight on what they say. Also remember that they will never (that is NEVER ever) recommend anything they cannot quickly shift out to you from stock, they are salesmen firstly going on commission.

You can definitely use a  laptop and record directly to the in-built harddrive. I have done this for at least five years often with up to 16 channels. It is not the optimum but good enough (like I would not have much advantage of a Ferrari in normal rush hour traffice, will not get there faster). Once recording has started there is very little activity from the operating system towards the drive. Just remember to turn off internet and antivirus while recording and you will be fine to go. In my experience it is a convenience to divide the drive into two partitions, using one of them for audio files. Not strictly necessary though.

But again, some laptops simply work better and some worse. You simply have to try it.

It used to be that Firewire was superior to USB, but the market now is moving towards USB2. One reason is that many modern machidnes, including Macs, does not carry firewire anymore. Basically USB2 is good enough so why have things that simply increase the price.

As said before Firewire comes in 4,6 and 9 pin varieties. All you need to connect a firewire audio interface is the correct type of cable. There are however very few portables that can supply power over the firewire cable to the interface, so expect a separate power supply. For the really technically interested, the higher speed firewire comes only on the 9pin variety, but it automatically "shifts down" if the audio interface cannot support the higher speed. Again for most users you will not need it (no need of Ferrari).

Good luck, the search for your perfect interface is here.

// Gunnar

[ghellquist]

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/NRV10.html
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/ProFire2626.html

Ok...what is a stereo pair? I think I want the vocal separate from th instrument, separate from another vocal, etc.

Yes both will fit your bill and send many channels to the computer.
A good idea is to find the user manual and check. Often you can download that from the website.

You can always divide a stereo pair into two mono channels inside the computer software, nothing to worry about.  Each instrument or vocal then goes to its own mono channel.

// Gunnar

[sunjan]

There are however very few portables that can supply power over the firewire cable to the interface, so expect a separate power supply.

Like Gunnar said, it's wise to pay attention to the powering options:
1. Bus power
2. DC power (either w/ AC adapter, or external battery over DC connector)
3. Direct AC power with internal converter (fortunately rare these days)

If you foresee situations when you don't have access to wall power, make sure your box can be battery powered. Bus power can be OK for short sets, but it will sap your lappy battery, diminishing overall runtime.

Two recent similar threads with some gear suggestions:
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,117290.msg1567909.html#msg1567909
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,114869.msg1536752.html#msg1536752

[Matt Quinn]

I'm venturing into this arena myself, with an Alesis Multimix 8 Firewire.  Now, if I only had time to sit down and play with it.  I've heard good things about Reaper (software) and am going to try it, because Cubase LE looked a little cumbersome.  The mixer is nice and compact, has decent pre's, and can be had for <$300.  It's also available in a 12 ch, IIRC.

Pat

I own a MultiMix 8 USB 2.0, and have done 8 tracks @ 32bit/48k into Adobe Audition for upwards of 2 hours without an issue.

[Chris K]

This one mentions routing discrete channels to the recorder:

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/NRV10.html


This one doesn't say it directly, but does mention sending stereo pairs :

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/ProFire2626.html

Ok...what is a stereo pair? I think I want the vocal separate from the instrument, separate from another vocal, etc.

I dont know much about the mixer, but the Profire 2626 gets good reviews, and if I needed an interface with 8 XLR's I think this would be the frontrunner. I really like the M-Audio drivers having used them on some of my earlier pieces of gear (audiophole 2496 pci, firewire410, and now firewire 1814) and on both mac and windoze. And the M-Audio products allow you to try Pro-Tools without buying digi-design gear.

[live2496]

This one mentions routing discrete channels to the recorder:

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/NRV10.html


This one doesn't say it directly, but does mention sending stereo pairs :

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/ProFire2626.html

Ok...what is a stereo pair? I think I want the vocal separate from the instrument, separate from another vocal, etc.

On windows it's common to have two inputs or outputs associated together as a pair. If, say for example you had a vocal on #1 and an instrument on #2, you might have to select [1+2] in the recording software and record that as an interleaved file. However, it's usually trivial to split these into mono files afterwards (if you have need to apply separate processing/routing to each.)

In Samplitude you can keep the interleave file as is on a track or read in a mono file and bring that in as a separate track. I'm pretty sure that most audio software has this flexibility.


 

[intpseeker]

Great info, all!

Am I opening a can of worms asking about software.
I feel pretty ok about slicing and dicing my two-channel recordings from shows using Audacity. And I've just started to play with Reaper. I see Pro Tools, Cubase, Audition, and others. I also read some reviews where the user has scraped the included software to run their favorite.

Does it make a lot of difference, or is it what you get used to what you get used to?

[Chris K]

when it comes to software, i think it all comes down to personal preference. i found a pretty steep learning curve going from 2 channel audio workstations to multi-track. each software has its own process or "way" to do the same things in them.

Once you get the basics down though and learn the terminology most of the programs are fairly similar...to use a football analogy..once you learn the west coast offense as a QB for team A, you can be traded to team B and learn the different  schemes and terminology but it is still the west coast offense...same with multitrack DAW's...same concepts but a different means to getting the job done.

I started with cubase, got fairly proficient with it, went to m-powered pro tools and was basically lost until i figured out its "way" and now I use Logic almost exclusively. you mentioned cubase in an earlier post, and I personally think it is a pretty good starting point to learn multitrack audio concepts.

there are some good tutorials at grooveboxmusic (www.groove3.com) and other sites that may be a real help getting over the hump.

have fun

[intpseeker]

when it comes to software, i think it all comes down to personal preference. i found a pretty steep learning curve going from 2 channel audio workstations to multi-track. each software has its own process or "way" to do the same things in them.

Once you get the basics down though and learn the terminology most of the programs are fairly similar...to use a football analogy..once you learn the west coast offense as a QB for team A, you can be traded to team B and learn the different  schemes and terminology but it is still the west coast offense...same with multitrack DAW's...same concepts but a different means to getting the job done.

I started with cubase, got fairly proficient with it, went to m-powered pro tools and was basically lost until i figured out its "way" and now I use Logic almost exclusively. you mentioned cubase in an earlier post, and I personally think it is a pretty good starting point to learn multitrack audio concepts.

there are some good tutorials at grooveboxmusic (www.groove3.com) and other sites that may be a real help getting over the hump.

have fun

Grooveboxmusic looks like an excellent resource.

[intpseeker]

Anyone have any experience with Phonic?

This showed up in my inbox:

http://www.zzounds.com/item--PHOH24FWMKII

[rePat]

Anyone have any experience with Phonic?

This showed up in my inbox:

http://www.zzounds.com/item--PHOH24FWMKII

WOW looks like a good value!  I'll be watching for comments on this one.

Pat

[live2496]

There are some user comments on gearslutz: Summary... It's the cheapest way to get that many tracks in via firewire. Firewire driver works good. Mic pres are fairly decent but the line inputs are not so good. One user reported measuring the noise level at -70db. But it could be a production flaw with some units.

You might be taking a chance getting one, but I thought I saw Sweetwater or Musicians Friend (can't remember which) offering a 30 day return if you don't like it.

In the long run, you might be better off spending more on a Mackie Onyx board and getting their firewire option.  A whole lot more, but product support is going to be much better. But some really seem to like the Phonic for live sound plus recording via firewire. There was some talk of Phonic making improvements to the mic pres.

[intpseeker]

There are some user comments on gearslutz: Summary... It's the cheapest way to get that many tracks in via firewire. Firewire driver works good. Mic pres are fairly decent but the line inputs are not so good. One user reported measuring the noise level at -70db. But it could be a production flaw with some units.

You might be taking a chance getting one, but I thought I saw Sweetwater or Musicians Friend (can't remember which) offering a 30 day return if you don't like it.

In the long run, you might be better off spending more on a Mackie Onyx board and getting their firewire option.  A whole lot more, but product support is going to be much better. But some really seem to like the Phonic for live sound plus recording via firewire. There was some talk of Phonic making improvements to the mic pres.

Most of the Phonic fluffers describe the Mackie firewire offering as twce as expensive, and I suppose if you pay bust out retail that would be a consideration, but you can get a 12 channel Mackie ONYX firewire mixer for 799 on ebay before the cashback.

Both describe having the ability to send two tracks back to the mixer from the computer for monitoring. (Get ready. Here comes a newbie question.) What would you use these two channels coming back from the computer for?

[live2496]

I did some looking at Mackie mixers today. The firewire card is an option that will add about $450 to the overall cost.

RE: two channels
I guess that could be a stereo mix of the tracks you are recording on the computer. If the computer can solo a channel then maybe it could be an individual track panned L/R. But if you can listen for distortion at the mixer I'm not certain how useful that would be.

One of the nice things about the Phonic is that what is sent to the firewire can be pre-fader and pre-eq. (There is apparently a switch underneath that can change it to be post-fader.) If I were using one I would record with no eq or post fader, just what is coming straight from the input stage with adjustment for matching of the level with the trim control.

[intpseeker]

Checked out the Mackie:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=533572&is=REG&A=details&Q=

RME:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=445827&is=REG&A=details&Q=#features

Yamaha N8:

http://www.music123.com/Yamaha-n8-FireWire-Digital-Mixing-Studio-637171-i1321714.Music123

[heyitsmejess]

any opinions on this?

http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product?sku=245002V

its USB 2.0, but if its decent, seems like slot of bang for the buck

[intpseeker]

any opinions on this?

http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product?sku=245002V

its USB 2.0, but if its decent, seems like slot of bang for the buck

Seems like most folks like this unit. Sounds like a dedicated pci usb card helps eliminate drop outs and such.

Newegg has a bunch 0f these for desktops from $7-60, and a few from $40-60 for laptops.

[heyitsmejess]

i think this is the route im going then....it passes more channels that i need, and i have an older ATX case that i can build into a nice, dedicated system for recording.

now if i can find a small-ish, affordable monitor, ill have what i need!

seriously, this thread is a wealth of information!

thanks again, all!

[intpseeker]

i think this is the route im going then....it passes more channels that i need, and i have an older ATX case that i can build into a nice, dedicated system for recording.

now if i can find a small-ish, affordable monitor, ill have what i need!

seriously, this thread is a wealth of information!

thanks again, all!

That $299 price seems like a good deal. Most on ebay are $399 with one over $500. The lowest was a used one for &290.

[live2496]

I don't think anyone mentioned the Edirol FA-101. It's firewire, can record up to 10 channels at 24/96.

[digifish_music]

I would recommend using a firewire interface rather than USB.  While USB 2 is technically faster than fw400, it operates in a burst mode that is not ideal for audio transmission.

You'll be able to achieve higher track counts and probably a higher degree of reliability with firewire.

Disagreed.

I am both an Edirol dealer, so have had plenty of opportunity to play with  USB and Fire-Wire interfaces and run various multi-track recording set-ups.

USB 2.0 has never cause me or customers any issues. USB2/Firewire, in practice, makes no difference that I have been able to see.

USB 2.0 is more than fast enough to handle 12 tracks of 44.1, 24 bit audio, without a glitch.

The attitude you are expressing is (AFAIKS) a halo effect from the days of USB 1.0 and early drivers for this type of gear (which
were a bit crap). USB 2.0 is mature, fast and stable and most/all? manufacturers seem to have got their act together on the drivers.

Today I would recommend people buy USB 2.0 as it's ubiquitous while fire-wire ports are becoming rarer.

digifish

[intpseeker]

I would recommend using a firewire interface rather than USB.  While USB 2 is technically faster than fw400, it operates in a burst mode that is not ideal for audio transmission.

You'll be able to achieve higher track counts and probably a higher degree of reliability with firewire.

Disagreed.

I am both an Edirol dealer, so have had plenty of opportunity to play with  USB and Fire-Wire interfaces and run various multi-track recording set-ups.

So what would you recommend given the premise of the thread - 4-8 channels, a few vocals, guitar, bass, plugged in violin, DIY small, no, v. small home studio?

USB 2.0 has never cause me or customers any issues. USB2/Firewire, in practice, makes no difference that I have been able to see.

USB 2.0 is more than fast enough to handle 12 tracks of 44.1, 24 bit audio, without a glitch.

The attitude you are expressing is (AFAIKS) a halo effect from the days of USB 1.0 and early drivers for this type of gear. USB 2.) is mature, fast and stable.

Today I would recommend people buy USB 2.0 as it's ubiquitous while fire-wire ports are becoming rarer.

digifish

Thanks for the info. I have been doing my researching with that idea that the difference in modes between usb 2.0 and firewire was a possible deal-breaker for any usb unit.

So what would you recomend given the premise of the thread?

[digifish_music]

So what would you recommend given the premise of the thread - 4-8 channels, a few vocals, guitar, bass, plugged in violin, DIY small, no, v. small home studio?
...
So what would you recomend given the premise of the thread?

The Edirol UA-101 (USB) or FA-101 (Firewire). These should come with Sonar LE for DAW functions.

http://www.edirol.net/products/en/UA-101/images/Cakewalk_PPP.pdf



or

Alesis MultiMix 8 may be just the ticket (also available in USB 2.0 or Firewire).





http://www.alesis.com/multimix8usb20

If I were recording bands live the MultiMix would be easier to work with than the Edirol. Has more mic preamps and real-world flexibility. Note however chanels 5/6 and 7/8 share mixer strips.

The Tascam unit you found http://www.tascam.com/products/us-1641.html is probably the least expensive option and going to be hard to beat. I think it also ships with Cubase LE that should get you started with a DAW.

digifish

[heyitsmejess]

so how do you know that the computer/laptop your working with will work with what you buy?

i am definetly buying the tascam 1641....what would the recommended specs be for a lappy to run it into?

[intpseeker]

So what would you recommend given the premise of the thread - 4-8 channels, a few vocals, guitar, bass, plugged in violin, DIY small, no, v. small home studio?
...
So what would you recomend given the premise of the thread?

The Edirol UA-101 (USB) or FA-101 (Firewire). These should come with Sonar LE for DAW functions.

http://www.edirol.net/products/en/UA-101/images/Cakewalk_PPP.pdf



or

Alesis MultiMix 8 may be just the ticket (also available in USB 2.0 or Firewire).





http://www.alesis.com/multimix8usb20

If I were recording bands live the MultiMix would be easier to work with than the Edirol. Has more mic preamps and real-world flexibility. Note however chanels 5/6 and 7/8 share mixer strips.

The Tascam unit you found http://www.tascam.com/products/us-1641.html is probably the least expensive option and going to be hard to beat. I think it also ships with Cubase LE that should get you started with a DAW.

digifish

Thanks for the info. I posted asking your opinion and then realized you said you were an Edirol dealer. Did some surfing and came up with the UA-101, which I hadn't considered.

Very nice site, btw: http://www.digifishmusic.com/index.htm

[rePat]

So what would you recommend given the premise of the thread - 4-8 channels, a few vocals, guitar, bass, plugged in violin, DIY small, no, v. small home studio?
...
So what would you recomend given the premise of the thread?

Alesis MultiMix 8 may be just the ticket (also available in USB 2.0 or Firewire).



If I were recording bands live the MultiMix would be easier to work with than the Edirol. Has more mic preamps and real-world flexibility. Note however chanels 5/6 and 7/8 share mixer strips.

The Tascam unit you found http://www.tascam.com/products/us-1641.html is probably the least expensive option and going to be hard to beat. I think it also ships with Cubase LE that should get you started with a DAW.

digifish

If I could pick your brain a little....   I have the Multimix Firewire, and am recording a small band 2-Gtr, bass, drums, harp, vocs.  I am currently pulling the vox(4) off of a powered mixer into a single channel.  My question is, what would be the best choices to stack on those 5/6 & 7/8 channels?  I also have my Sound Devices MP-2 mic pre  that can be thrown into the mix also!

Thanks for any input,

Pat

[digifish_music]

If I could pick your brain a little....   I have the Multimix Firewire, and am recording a small band 2-Gtr, bass, drums, harp, vocs.  I am currently pulling the vox(4) off of a powered mixer into a single channel.  My question is, what would be the best choices to stack on those 5/6 & 7/8 channels?  I also have my Sound Devices MP-2 mic pre  that can be thrown into the mix also!

Thanks for any input,

Pat

Hi Pat, you are saying that you have 4 sets of vocals? So I count the need for (at least) 9 channels (Drums just got a stereo overhead ?

I suppose I need more data, what individual outputs are available from the Powered Mixer? Certainly recording vocalists to individual channels is a better idea, using your MP-2 to feed say 7/8. Can you group your vocals, lead into 7, backing into 8? That would leave 6 channels for the rest of the band...

digifish

[digifish_music]

BTW:

PCI = http://www.tweakheadz.com/audio_interface_pci_comparison_chart.htm

USB = http://www.tweakheadz.com/audio_interface_usb2_comparison_chart.htm

FireWire = http://www.tweakheadz.com/audio_interface_fw_comparison_chart.htm

[intpseeker]

BTW:

PCI = http://www.tweakheadz.com/audio_interface_pci_comparison_chart.htm

USB = http://www.tweakheadz.com/audio_interface_usb2_comparison_chart.htm

FireWire = http://www.tweakheadz.com/audio_interface_fw_comparison_chart.htm

Nice tables. This must have been constructed before the UA-101 USB was released.

Looking at Edirol products, how about this:

http://www.zzounds.com/item--EDIM16DX

[rePat]

If I could pick your brain a little....   I have the Multimix Firewire, and am recording a small band 2-Gtr, bass, drums, harp, vocs.  I am currently pulling the vox(4) off of a powered mixer into a single channel.  My question is, what would be the best choices to stack on those 5/6 & 7/8 channels?  I also have my Sound Devices MP-2 mic pre  that can be thrown into the mix also!

Thanks for any input,

Pat

Hi Pat, you are saying that you have 4 sets of vocals? So I count the need for (at least) 9 channels (Drums just got a stereo overhead ?

I suppose I need more data, what individual outputs are available from the Powered Mixer? Certainly recording vocalists to individual channels is a better idea, using your MP-2 to feed say 7/8. Can you group your vocals, lead into 7, backing into 8? That would leave 6 channels for the rest of the band...

digifish

More details, if you guys don't mind the partial hijack.....  and some sound samples!

XLR1- Lead Guitar Cab mic'd w/Oktave MC012
XLR2- Snare/Highhat unknown mic
XLR3- Drum overhead Oktava MC012
XLR4- Acoustic guitar line from amp
CH5-  Bass guitar direct from amp
CH7- Line in from Powered Mixer (an old Peavey XR600b) handling 4 vocal mics

This is what I used on the first attempt.  The harp player was absent this night, so in the future I will need to mic his amp.  This was a mix on the fly production, and recorded direct into an Edirol R-09, post production with SoundForge and various Plugins.  Totally experimental!  Funky Chicken would be my choice for a sample.  And of course the wav's sound much better than the MP3's.

http://www.4shared.com/dir/2587624/473e0348/WallyBeaver.html

Thanks for the input!

Pat

[intpseeker]

If I could pick your brain a little....   I have the Multimix Firewire, and am recording a small band 2-Gtr, bass, drums, harp, vocs.  I am currently pulling the vox(4) off of a powered mixer into a single channel.  My question is, what would be the best choices to stack on those 5/6 & 7/8 channels?  I also have my Sound Devices MP-2 mic pre  that can be thrown into the mix also!

Thanks for any input,

Pat

Hi Pat, you are saying that you have 4 sets of vocals? So I count the need for (at least) 9 channels (Drums just got a stereo overhead ?

I suppose I need more data, what individual outputs are available from the Powered Mixer? Certainly recording vocalists to individual channels is a better idea, using your MP-2 to feed say 7/8. Can you group your vocals, lead into 7, backing into 8? That would leave 6 channels for the rest of the band...

digifish

More details, if you guys don't mind the partial hijack.....  and some sound samples!

XLR1- Lead Guitar Cab mic'd w/Oktave MC012
XLR2- Snare/Highhat unknown mic
XLR3- Drum overhead Oktava MC012
XLR4- Acoustic guitar line from amp
CH5-  Bass guitar direct from amp
CH7- Line in from Powered Mixer (an old Peavey XR600b) handling 4 vocal mics

This is what I used on the first attempt.  The harp player was absent this night, so in the future I will need to mic his amp.  This was a mix on the fly production, and recorded direct into an Edirol R-09, post production with SoundForge and various Plugins.  Totally experimental!  Funky Chicken would be my choice for a sample.  And of course the wav's sound much better than the MP3's.

http://www.4shared.com/dir/2587624/473e0348/WallyBeaver.html

Thanks for the input!

Pat

Wow! Alesis multimix? Sounds v. good...and ya know, ya just can't count on them harp players. ;-)

[digifish_music]

Wow! Alesis multimix? Sounds v. good...and ya know, ya just can't count on them harp players. ;-)

That's the benefit of having your mics on stage with the performers rather than 100' back in the audience

Listening to Funky chicken now...as I expected with your setup the Kick drum is lost. I'd seriously consider devoting a channel to that.

Great start tho.

Regards Scott

[digifish_music]

Looking at Edirol products, how about this:

http://www.zzounds.com/item--EDIM16DX

If you are up for it, nice unit, like the Alesis MultiMix having the tactile interface is a huge benefit when trying to work live and record stuff.

digifish

[Gutbucket]

A new USB2 interface version of the RME Fireface400 should be available soon.  Won't be inexpensive, but should be good.

[Matt Quinn]

Whoa, that Edirol mixer looks niiiiice. Love that there is a spdif input.

Anyone want to buy a MultiMix 8 USB 2.0? 

[intpseeker]

Whoa, that Edirol mixer looks niiiiice. Love that there is a spdif input.

Anyone want to buy a MultiMix 8 USB 2.0? 

So how do you like the multimix?

[intpseeker]

if your audio interface has 4-8 inputs, are you sending 4-8 individual tracks through the usb to the computer or is it two tracks?

as for your original post...it all depends on your interface. the interface may have 2 mic inputs, 2 TRS inputs, digi in, but it may only pass a stereo signal. you need to look for a unit that specifies simultaneous recording or pass through of multiple tracks.

for example the edirol UA-5 has two mic ins, and two rca ins and a two stereo digi ins, but it cannot pass 6 separate feeds into your computer. it will only pass a stereo pair. on the other hand, the M-Audio Firewire 1814 (and i use this a a reference since I own one) has 2 xlr inputs,, 8 TRS inputs, adat in (8 track), spdif in, and you can theoretically feed your firewire equipped pc/mac with 18 channels.

good luck and have fun

In checking the Reaper forum for equipment being used, the Edirol 10, both firewire and usb, and M-audio products seem to get a lot of +T's.

So how do you like the 1814?

[Matt Quinn]

Whoa, that Edirol mixer looks niiiiice. Love that there is a spdif input.

Anyone want to buy a MultiMix 8 USB 2.0? 

So how do you like the multimix?

I like it a lot actually, it has performed flawlessly since I got it. For my particular situation though, space-wise, that 2 box design of the Edirol looks mighty appealing.

I also use a Frontier Design Alpha Track as a DAW controller, and the Edirol could potentially replace both the MultiMix & the Alpha Track, saving more studio real estate.

[intpseeker]

Whoa, that Edirol mixer looks niiiiice. Love that there is a spdif input.

Anyone want to buy a MultiMix 8 USB 2.0? 

So how do you like the multimix?

I like it a lot actually, it has performed flawlessly since I got it. For my particular situation though, space-wise, that 2 box design of the Edirol looks mighty appealing.

I also use a Frontier Design Alpha Track as a DAW controller, and the Edirol could potentially replace both the MultiMix & the Alpha Track, saving more studio real estate.

You have a PC in your signature. So right now, I would see your monitor, the DAW controller and the MultiMix all together, and with the Edirol, you would only have the mixer piece with the monitor and the input box out with the performers?  Sorry for the detailed questions. I'm really trying to visulize what the differences would be, space-wise.

Are you running XP or Vista? 32 or 64?

[Matt Quinn]

Whoa, that Edirol mixer looks niiiiice. Love that there is a spdif input.

Anyone want to buy a MultiMix 8 USB 2.0? 

So how do you like the multimix?

I like it a lot actually, it has performed flawlessly since I got it. For my particular situation though, space-wise, that 2 box design of the Edirol looks mighty appealing.

I also use a Frontier Design Alpha Track as a DAW controller, and the Edirol could potentially replace both the MultiMix & the Alpha Track, saving more studio real estate.

You have a PC in your signature. So right now, I would see your monitor, the DAW controller and the MultiMix all together, and with the Edirol, you would only have the mixer piece with the monitor and the input box out with the performers?  Sorry for the detailed questions. I'm really trying to visulize what the differences would be, space-wise.

Are you running XP or Vista? 32 or 64?

Running XP - I'll help you visualize    :








I figure I would put the I/O box where the MultiMix is now, then have the mixer on the desk. This would also allow me to stack the V3 neatly on top of it, and use it's with the digital out feeding the Edirol's digital in. Plus it's 16 channels instead of 8, and as we know, more is always better.

[intpseeker]

Whoa, that Edirol mixer looks niiiiice. Love that there is a spdif input.

Anyone want to buy a MultiMix 8 USB 2.0? 

So how do you like the multimix?

I like it a lot actually, it has performed flawlessly since I got it. For my particular situation though, space-wise, that 2 box design of the Edirol looks mighty appealing.

I also use a Frontier Design Alpha Track as a DAW controller, and the Edirol could potentially replace both the MultiMix & the Alpha Track, saving more studio real estate.

You have a PC in your signature. So right now, I would see your monitor, the DAW controller and the MultiMix all together, and with the Edirol, you would only have the mixer piece with the monitor and the input box out with the performers?  Sorry for the detailed questions. I'm really trying to visulize what the differences would be, space-wise.

Are you running XP or Vista? 32 or 64?

Running XP - I'll help you visualize    :








I figure I would put the I/O box where the MultiMix is now, then have the mixer on the desk. This would also allow me to stack the V3 neatly on top of it, and use it's with the digital out feeding the Edirol's digital in. Plus it's 16 channels instead of 8, and as we know, more is always better.

Thanks for the pic. Gear porn is v. cool.  And more is always better. I started looking for 4 channels and now can't imagine less than 16.

[intpseeker]

Looking some more at the Edirol M-16DX, and it clearly says all 16 inputs plus stereo main mix available to your DAW as individual audio streams.

That's good. That answers the question that started the thread, but it also says 18 in, 2 out. I get the 18 in, but what do they mean by 2 out? To what? Monitors?