Topic: new computer build

[Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)]

Sorry, I didn't mean to bring up a sensitive subject with windows but if you're wanting to cut costs and don't already have the os, you could look elsewhere.
I like the selections you have made so far.

I'll put my 2 cents in when it comes to Linux vs. Windoz. I do agree with you that it's a great way to cut costs, but only for certain people. Mainly enthusiasts, and really poor people that are only going to use it to surf the web.

I really enjoy Linux and I find it fun to get everything running nicely, but only on a secondary machine (I dual boot Ubuntu and Win 7 on my laptop, and only use Win 7 when Linux can't do what I want it to).

I just find it to be annoying when I'm really wanting to get something done and I have to do some research and tinkering to get Ubuntu doing what I want.

On top of that I just have found the options for programs to be so much better for Windows. Yes there are Linux options that are usually free that replace their Windows counterparts that cost $$$, but there a few Windows programs that are just unbeatable and worth the money, IMO.

Don't want to get into the Windows vs. Linux debate too much (at least not here), but IMO $100 for a rock solid OS, that is very well supported and can be very secure (if you're not a moron).

Seriously though...I would definitely consider the SSD upgrade. And with your 10TB of server storage you really only need temporary storage on your new desktop. Only reason I have a secondary drive in my computer with the SSD is that I prefer to edit my music locally, and SSD's have limited writes (which is why I suggested moving your documents, downloads, etc to a secondary drive). You could probably have less that 500GB of space, but I really don't see the point since you'd only be saving a few dollars to get a smaller HD.

Oh...and I forgot before. This is a really good website for reviews and build suggestions:

http://pcper.com/

They usually have a list of the best builds for certain price ranges.

[OFOTD]

Jason

What is more important to you in this decision current price/performance value, longterm p/p value or just simply the experience of rolling your own?

Assuming you are also having to buy W7 Home I'm guessing your total budget is about $650.  For that price you can find a machine from Dell or similar that will blow the doors off of the specs you had listed, OS included.   

As far as PSU's go alsways buy quality over total wattage.  If your machine only uses 300w then there is no reason to buy a 500w PSU.    A 400w or less if fine.  Buy the best one in your budget.

SSD's?   If you can't afford to buy a quality drive now then you are better served saving up to buy a quality drive later when you have the money.  There is a big difference between the good ones and the cheap ones.   

[rastasean]

Jason & Mike,

Thanks for your opinions and thoughts on windows and linux. One reason I like linux more is because there are hundreds of distributions available for someone to try for free on almost any hardware. Windows has xp, vista, and 7 which are pretty much the same imo; Mac OS X also seems to be the same from version to version and like higher versions of windows, require newer machines to run on. I don't mind the annoyances of researching linux things because I hope to always be using linux and hope to find/create a career around using it so I think of it as an education.

[JasonSobel]

Jason

What is more important to you in this decision current price/performance value, longterm p/p value or just simply the experience of rolling your own?

Assuming you are also having to buy W7 Home I'm guessing your total budget is about $650.  For that price you can find a machine from Dell or similar that will blow the doors off of the specs you had listed, OS included.   

you are correct.  Total budget, including OS, is $650-$700ish.

Number 1 factor for me is longterm price/performance value, number 2 is the experience of building my own.

Do you really think I can get a Dell in that price range that will "blow the doors off the specs" that I had listed?  I looked at Dell before trying to price out a home built system.  and it seemed like I could get comparable specs for a little more money, like $700-$800 range.  but not the better specs for the same price as a home built.  maybe I'm just not looking in the right place on the dell site?

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

Number 1 factor for me is longterm price/performance value

If you are providing the training and support for others in the household who don't use linux, then the long term cost of your time and their frustration is going to outweigh the price difference between Win7 and an Ubuntu install. 

And I'm writing that being a complete linux bigot since RH4.0.

edit for grammar

[OFOTD]

Do you really think I can get a Dell in that price range that will "blow the doors off the specs" that I had listed?

Okay so I went to Dell > Home/Home Office > Desktops & AIO Computers.   Checked the price range box $500- $800 and got results.  Three down is an Inspiron 620s for $549.  Here is what it includes and how those components stack up to what you priced out. Sorry for the ugly cut and paste.


My Software & Accessories
Microsoft® Office Starter: reduced-functionality Word & Excel w/ ads. No PowerPoint or Outlook
2 Year Basic Service Plan
6GB DDR3 SDRAM at 1333MHz- 2 DIMMs  - 2GB less than what you priced but this is always the easiest future upgrade and currently more that you will use.
Intel® HD Graphics - Personally I think the integrated graphics from AMD (ATI products) are terrible.   Always conflicting with other hardware.   Intel are pretty standard. Now for separate Graphics Cards the ATI fair better but their integrated video...no thanks
McAfee SecurityCenter , 15-Months
My Accessories
DataSafe 2.0 Online Backup 2GB for 1 year
Also Includes
Adobe® Acrobat® Reader
No TV Tuner Requested
Integrated 8 in 1 Media Card Reader   - One less thing to buy
Integrated 5.1
No Warranty Complete Care
Genuine Windows® 7 Home Premium, 64Bit, English    - There's your legal copy of Windows 7
Inspiron 620 Minitower w/ Black Bezel FT16  - I love the Antec case but this one is small.
Intel® Core™ i3-2100 processor(3MB Cache, 3.10GHz) - There is no question I would go for the Core i3 before I would go with ANY AMD processor.   This is a big upgrade. Even with the core count difference.  Ever wonder why the only positive people seem to give the AMD cpu's is their price and not actual performance?  I run a Core i7 920 OC'd and absolutely LOVE IT!
No Monitor
1TB Serial ATA Hard Drive (7200RPM) w/DataBurst Cache™ - Well there's a TB to get you through until you can afford a good SSD.
Black Bezel
16X DVD+/-RW Drive - Push
Dell USB Entry Keyboard - May not need it but it's included
Dell USB Optical Mouse - See keyboard

For $100 more you can upgrade to built in wireless and move to a Core i5.  Its the Inspiron 620 MT

So the only real advantage to rolling your own is the 2GB RAM difference.   With a Dell (or the like) you get support, a warranty and generally speaking better components. 

I have built many machines both for home and for work as well as for friends.  I truly believe that the only way you really benefit from building your own is when you are looking to build either a performance machine or a machine with a dedicated purpose like a dedicated HTPC.    For 99% of everyday computers users with a general household role for the machine are better served buying from a manufacturer that can kill on low prices. 

[mattmiller]

With a Dell (or the like) you get support, a warranty and generally speaking better components.

I have built many machines both for home and for work as well as for friends.  I truly believe that the only way you really benefit from building your own is when you are looking to build either a performance machine or a machine with a dedicated purpose like a dedicated HTPC.    For 99% of everyday computers users with a general household role for the machine are better served buying from a manufacturer that can kill on low prices.

I agree with your general premise that building your own budget system isn't going to save you money.  But I disagree that you're getting better components with a Dell.  In fact, I think the benefit of paying a little bit more and building it yourself is that you're buying BETTER components.  All the components that he picked out are well reviewed, but what is the quality of the PSU that Dell is putting in their economy systems?  They probably buy them for about $25 per pallet.

Also, the warranty provided by Dell for the OEM parts is often of shorter duration than the warranty you get when buying the retail versions of the components.  For example, before I built my first system I remember researching warranties and discovering that the system sold by Dell came with a 1 year warranty for everything, but the standard warranty for the Intel CPU was 3 years.  Part of that cost savings by buying through Dell is the shorter warranty.

[JasonSobel]

Okay so I went to Dell > Home/Home Office > Desktops & AIO Computers.   Checked the price range box $500- $800 and got results.  Three down is an Inspiron 620s for $549.  Here is what it includes and how those components stack up to what you priced out. Sorry for the ugly cut and paste.

thanks for taking the time to do the comparison

6GB DDR3 SDRAM at 1333MHz- 2 DIMMs  - 2GB less than what you priced but this is always the easiest future upgrade and currently more that you will use.

I agree, RAM is always the easiest upgrade.  but one thing that isn't clear is if the motherboard has four slots or just two.  If it has four slots, then I just pop in whatever RAM I want down the road, and it's in addition to the 6gb already there.  If there are only two slots, then when I upgrade, whatever I get will be instead of the 6gb, not in addition to.  Not a deal breaker by any means, but something that I am considering.

Intel® HD Graphics - Personally I think the integrated graphics from AMD (ATI products) are terrible.   Always conflicting with other hardware.   Intel are pretty standard. Now for separate Graphics Cards the ATI fair better but their integrated video...no thanks

thank you for sharing your opinion there.  like I said earlier, I'm not going to use it for any high end graphics, so as long as it works, I'm fine with it.  but if I'll have issues (conflicts?) that will cause my big head aches, that's another story.

Integrated 8 in 1 Media Card Reader   - One less thing to buy

A minor consideration.  Especially because I already have an external USB 2.0 card reader.  As discussed earlier, not as fast as an internal card reader, but fast enough to suffice.

Genuine Windows® 7 Home Premium, 64Bit, English    - There's your legal copy of Windows 7

Inspiron 620 Minitower w/ Black Bezel FT16  - I love the Antec case but this one is small.

While the Inspiron 620 mini tower is nice because it's small, it offers a lot less flexibility down the road, right?

Intel® Core™ i3-2100 processor(3MB Cache, 3.10GHz) - There is no question I would go for the Core i3 before I would go with ANY AMD processor.   This is a big upgrade. Even with the core count difference.  Ever wonder why the only positive people seem to give the AMD cpu's is their price and not actual performance?  I run a Core i7 920 OC'd and absolutely LOVE IT!

I'm sure the Core i7 920 OC'd is great.
On this page:
http://www.cpubenchmark.net/high_end_cpus.html
The Intel Core i3-2100 @ 3.10GHz is rated at 3,829
the AMD Phenom II X4 955 is rated at 3,955

so on that benchmark page, the AMD comes out on top, although the two are fairly similar.
while most people who talk positively about the AMD mention price, it's usually in terms of price/performance ratio.
You get similar performance for less money.  Sure, Intel comes out on top for the best of the best.  but in general, AMD chips are just fine.

I have built many machines both for home and for work as well as for friends.  I truly believe that the only way you really benefit from building your own is when you are looking to build either a performance machine or a machine with a dedicated purpose like a dedicated HTPC.    For 99% of everyday computers users with a general household role for the machine are better served buying from a manufacturer that can kill on low prices.

thanks again for sharing your opinion.  It's certainly making me take a closer look at the dell.  part of it is that the dell site doesn't give a lot of specifics in regards to number of expansion slots, etc, etc..  which makes it hard to compare the fine details.

[mattmiller]

I agree, RAM is always the easiest upgrade.  but one thing that isn't clear is if the motherboard has four slots or just two.  If it has four slots, then I just pop in whatever RAM I want down the road, and it's in addition to the 6gb already there.  If there are only two slots, then when I upgrade, whatever I get will be instead of the 6gb, not in addition to.  Not a deal breaker by any means, but something that I am considering.

Crucial (www.crucial.com) normally is really good about telling you what kind of memory you need what the maximum capacity is.  In this case, I couldn't find this system on their website.  I did find it here, however:

http://www.memorystock.com/memory/DellInspiron620620s.html

This system has only two slots, with a maximum of 4GB per slot.

[rastasean]

Dell makes good stuff. They make nice servers I have a early/mid 2000s poweredge that I like a lot but I wouldn't buy a desktop new.

I think building a system could and would save you money but its about the kind of system you want to make. Jason's system will serve him for many years since he's not going to be doing a lot of media editing or high end graphics on it. You could easily exceed the price of a store bought computer if you were going to make a high end system, but the components in it would most likely last longer and be higher quality.

[OFOTD]

re: AMD vs. Intel    This one is alot easier than the Windows vs. Linux debate.   I would put my i7 up against the AMD any day and feel confident that the Intel will outperform it in every way except for price.   The quality of motherboard available for each chipset is a factor as well.  Another plus for Intel.   With the benchmark link you provide it appears the AMD and i3 compare extremely close with AMD barely edging the Intel out.  Remember the Intel is the same price, only two cores and it hangs with AMD 4 core option.

Here is the thing about RAM and keeping a machine 8 years.  Most low to mid mobo's are limited on how much RAM they can take before a firmware upgrade anyway.   The Dell I think maxes currently at 8GB total.   The  ASUS at 16GB.  Today we have 8GB on two sticks for $55.  In a year we are going to have 8GB on one stick for the same price.   Right now if you are using your new machine for just everyday basic tasks (webbrowsing, word processing, audio editing, etc) then 6GB or 8GB for the most part is more than enough.  Not until software developers take advantage of 64bit OS's will there be a need for more than that.  Two years away is very optimistic.  SoundForge, Wavelab, Audacity either don't have 64bit versions yet or if they do they don't utilize the expanded RAM.  So at worst you have two years to worry about adding RAM.   The way that flash memory is progressing now I would be surprised if we see 8GB on one stick for less than $25.     I also believe that within the next 12 months we'll have more mobo's with RAM on the board to start.   Additionally manufactures are starting to ramp up PCI type RAM meaning instead of buying two stick of RAM you'll buy a RAM card that fits into a PCI type slot which doesn't not have the limitations that the current RAM slots have.

ATI on-board video vs. Intel or Nvidia on-board would be a dealbreaker for me.  Not because of actual graphic performance but for the instability and general problems with those ATI chipsets.  There is a reason why Intel based mobo's are typically higher priced and it isn't because of the brand name ya know.

As far as flexability down the road I only see three things that require flexability.  RAM, hard drives and physical media drives.   Physical media drives are easy and soon to be relics.  Hard drives are obviously moving towards SSD and RAM is progressing so fast its a win for the consumer.     With the Inspiron you can add three more drives, one more physical media drive

Also let it be known that I just put the Dell as an example.  I am sure other large manufactures have similar products and similar price points.   Again I just really believe that if you're in the price point you seem to be in a prebuilt is a better solution from a retailer.  A pricer box or a box you expect to always tinker on would be the roll your own way.

[dnsacks]

I'm a big fan of slickdeals.net for this kinda thing -- here's a fairly nicely spec'd i3 dell for $399: http://slickdeals.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3106700

here's a pretty screaming deal on a refurbished dell core i7 xps 8300 for $599 -- http://slickdeals.net/forums/showthread.php?sduid=0&t=3073135

Found these by searching "desktop" on slickdeals.net --

[rjp]

Regarding power supplies, I'd strongly recommend that you go over to http://www.jonnyguru.com/ - he does torture tests on power supplies. The results can sometimes be very amusing.

One of the dirty little secrets of the power supply business is that, for the most part, the brand names on the shelf don't actually build the PSUs - they farm the manufacturing out to one of the few firms that actually make power supplies. The manufacturers generally build to the specs of the packager.

[bhtoque]

I've thought about getting a 1 TB drive for the new computer, because I know that they are not much more money.  but, for the money, I'd rather get a drive that is a better drive (not the bottom of line or cheapest), rather than a larger drive, in hopes that it will last longer.

A smaller drive will have lower sector density which means longer life/less errors. The one you picked is a good fit, and I really like the caviar black line. They are what I use for storage, while the system runs on a faster raptor drive. Especially without game installs even down to the smaller WD1500BLFS 150GB you'd be fine, but it's 3x the price of the black. That's really the only way you'd get a "better drive"

I know that 8gb of RAM might be a little overkill.  but another goal of mine for this system, that I probably should have mentioned, is to have it go for 7-8 years before needing to be replaced.  In the 8 years that I've had my current computer, the only upgrade I've done is upgrading the RAM from 512 MB to 2.5 GB.  I figure, 8gb of RAM should go a long way into the future.  and with 4 slots for RAM in the motherboard, I can always put in more down the road if I ever need it.

You can not future proof a computer and the more you try the more $$ you will waste. Even 6 months from now that extra 4gigs of ram will be cheaper than it is now. Even something like SF10 only specs 512mb of ram. If you've got $400 to drop on the software, I'm sure they figure you could buy more ram, but they have not even started to suggest 1 gig to run it.

you, JAson, and Fatah Ruark all mentioned either a second drive, either a regular hard drive, or a SSD for the operating system and programs.  I've thought about it, and I go back and forth.  I've got the 320gb (mentioned earlier in this post) that I'll continue to use in addition to the internal drive.  With three of you all suggesting it, maybe I'll take another look at having two drives.  but that will increase costs by $50-$100, if not more.

what about this one as a system drive:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136770

any thoughts?

I only suggest a 2nd drive for editing performance. It is software dependent though. I use SF7 and with the program and os on one drive and with reserved space for a swapfile on the second, tasks like building peak files before editing go much faster. Helps with undo and other things too. Getting something like the blue you linked would not help you here. Spending less on ram makes it easier to budget for a 2nd drive, but like I already said even in the near future you can add a 2nd drive for less $$

Are you saying that I should get one (or two?) 120mm fans for the "front bezel" to coll the hard drives?  but not really needed if I go with just a single hard drive?  what about a single hard drive + a SSD?  the SSD doesn't generate heat like a regular hard drive, correct?

If I did decide to get additional fans, I assume something like this would be good:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835185054
($25 each, or $50 for two) ($13 each, or $26 for two) what do you think?

Those are probably more than you would want. They move a ton of air, but are way too loud for an audio system. You can find something for 1/3rd the price that fits the bill like the $6 rosewill one listed in the 'similar items' section on the sycthe one you linked. low dba trumps high cfm in the proposed system. With fewer drives to throw off heat the front fans are not a must have, but that $5 fan may very well save your $50 drive, and certainly extends the life of the whole system.

JAson - thanks for the tip.  I assume this is just so that I don't zap anything as I put it together, is that right?

for 5 bucks, it seems like this one is well reviewed:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16899261005

that will do the trick, right?

Yup. That is what you need. It is amazing how little static it takes to fry ram or a mobo.

Someone mentioned making connections on the mobo and the front of the case, the best tool for that part is a fine pair of jeweler's tweezers (another $5, but SO worth not having frustration positioning jumpers or ruining the mobo by bending/snapping connector pins)


JAson

[JasonSobel]

thanks for all the help everyone.
I'm taking a close look at a Dell system, and also putting together another home built system.

One questions - it seems like all the Dell's have SATA 2 (3Gb/s), rather than SATA 3 (6Gb/s).
Can the 7200rpm WD caviar black har drive (that I linked to in the first post) really take advantage of the 6Gb/s?  am I going to notice a significant difference between that, and a Dell system with a 7200rpm hard drive connected via SATA 2 instead of SATA 3?