Topic: Have 2 setups (Church audio vs Line audio), which one do you recommend more?

[tomazahlin]

I've got a couple concerts coming up which I plan on recording

I'd like to know your opinions on which setup do you think would do a better job, which one would you use?
Setup 1 is smaller in size, more stealth, while setup 2 is a bit bigger in size, zoom h5 is bigger and also cables are quite thick as they have xlr connectors. My guess is the setup 2 is a bit better quality, but setup 1 is more stealth. But I know Chris from Church audio does an amazing job with microphones so it might be better quality as well. Not sure, that's why I ask you guys. I might go to a show and record with both setups, then I can decide also myself a bit better.

Setup 1:
Church Audio CA-11/CA-14 (pair) -> Church Audio Ugly preamp -> Line jack input Zoom H2 (costed around 600 eur)

Setup 2:
Line Audio CM4 (pair) -> Xlr input with Phantom power Zoom H5 (costed around 500 eur)

I also have an option of buying a different pair of microphones that have a xlr connector and require phantom. My budget would be around 1000 eur for a pair,... in case anyone has any great recommendations and experiences.
 

Links:
https://www.church-audio.com/
http://www.lineaudio.se/CM4.html

[jbell]

I would say Line Audio CM4 setup wins here!  You could have some low profile XLR cables built and get a small P48 deck (Zoom F3) to give the rig a smaller foot print. 

[tomazahlin]

I would say Line Audio CM4 setup wins here!  You could have some low profile XLR cables built and get a small P48 deck (Zoom F3) to give the rig a smaller foot print.

Thanks, this is actually a great idea, I can totally do this, and also use the smaller zoom f3 recorder to pair with either line audio microphones or church audio preamp... seems like the inputs can be configured to accept microphone or line input and have a phantom power option. Again, thanks for this, I had no idea Zoom F3 existed, otherwise I would already get it instead of the H5.

[jbell]

Get with Ted he recently did a build for low profile mini star quad with chopped XLR's and they are top notch.

https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=133186.0

I would say Line Audio CM4 setup wins here!  You could have some low profile XLR cables built and get a small P48 deck (Zoom F3) to give the rig a smaller foot print.

Thanks, this is actually a great idea, I can totally do this, and also use the smaller zoom f3 recorder to pair with either line audio microphones or church audio preamp... seems like the inputs can be configured to accept microphone or line input and have a phantom power option. Again, thanks for this, I had no idea Zoom F3 existed, otherwise I would already get it instead of the H5.

[tomazahlin]

Get with Ted he recently did a build for low profile mini star quad with chopped XLR's and they are top notch.

https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=133186.0

I would say Line Audio CM4 setup wins here!  You could have some low profile XLR cables built and get a small P48 deck (Zoom F3) to give the rig a smaller foot print.

Thanks, this is actually a great idea, I can totally do this, and also use the smaller zoom f3 recorder to pair with either line audio microphones or church audio preamp... seems like the inputs can be configured to accept microphone or line input and have a phantom power option. Again, thanks for this, I had no idea Zoom F3 existed, otherwise I would already get it instead of the H5.

Thank you, I sent Ted a message.
What do you think of a pair of Beyerdynamic MC930 microphones vs CM4?
https://www.thomannmusic.ch/beyerdynamic_mc930_stereo_set.htm
I found some thread here - https://gearspace.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/1393835-cm4-vs-mc930-vs.html with great comparison and both microphones sound quite similar to me, the price difference for Beyerdynamic is not worth it I think.

[jbell]

For the money and size I would stick with the cm4 mics! 

Get with Ted he recently did a build for low profile mini star quad with chopped XLR's and they are top notch.

https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=133186.0

I would say Line Audio CM4 setup wins here!  You could have some low profile XLR cables built and get a small P48 deck (Zoom F3) to give the rig a smaller foot print.

Thanks, this is actually a great idea, I can totally do this, and also use the smaller zoom f3 recorder to pair with either line audio microphones or church audio preamp... seems like the inputs can be configured to accept microphone or line input and have a phantom power option. Again, thanks for this, I had no idea Zoom F3 existed, otherwise I would already get it instead of the H5.

Thank you, I sent Ted a message.
What do you think of a pair of Beyerdynamic MC930 microphones vs CM4?
https://www.thomannmusic.ch/beyerdynamic_mc930_stereo_set.htm
I found some thread here - https://gearspace.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/1393835-cm4-vs-mc930-vs.html with great comparison and both microphones sound quite similar to me, the price difference for Beyerdynamic is not worth it I think.

[Gutbucket]

I might go to a show and record with both setups, then I can decide also myself a bit better.

Yes, do that! ..regardless of our suggestions and your expectations. Best to do it a few times across different situations. It's the best way to make a truly useful comparison, as free from extraneous variables and cognitive bias as practical.  Besides making the most apparent differences clear by comparison of the same material recorded from the same position, this will additionally help make you aware of more subtle acoustic attributes of the different microphones/recording chains, the practical differences in running them, and tangentially - your tolerance for complexity (set things up so as to make it easy to make two recordings at once).  If you try different microphones, do it again, and your previous setup becomes your well known baseline of comparison for the new mics. 

Whenever you can practically arrange to do so, comparing two recordings made simultaneously of identical material, from the same position, is the #1 way to make a useful, truthful comparison from which you will be able to draw the most information.  Same goes for how you choose to arrange the microphone pair, gear other than microphones, and how you set and use that gear.  Its not always practical to do this, but its super useful when manageable as it serves to eliminate second guessing and keep us honest with ourselves.

What follows of course is your own critical listening comparison, but also assessment the pro's and cons of each setup in terms of practicality and how one or the other arrangement might best handle different recording situations.

[voltronic]

Having owned both sets of mics on this discussion, I can say that the Line Audio mics into a Zoom F3 as Jbell suggested is absolutely the way to go. You could even get a pair of CM4 and OM1 omnis, and even with the F3 recorder you are still within your budget. Line Audio mics really do complete in sound quality with mics costing many times more (see the link in my signature).

Get your mics from JP at nohypeaudio.com. His customer service is second to none.

I would avoid Church Audio products, and I wish I could have given my younger self that same advice. Customer service from Church has a long track record of being very poor, at least partially offsetting the good value of his products. You will never really know when you'll get your order, and repairs may not even happen at all.

[heathen]

Whichever will allow you to set up in the best-sounding location in the venue.

[grawk]

Whichever will allow you to set up in the best-sounding location in the venue.

nothing about either rig will impact your ability to get to the spot.

[heathen]

Whichever will allow you to set up in the best-sounding location in the venue.

nothing about either rig will impact your ability to get to the spot.

Depends on the circumstances of a particular situation.  Sometimes that would be true, sometimes not.

[tomazahlin]

As suggested, I have tried out both setups at a local concert.
Turns out, the CM4 with Zoom F3 is a clear winner, compared to CA-14 from Church Audio / Ugly preamp and zoom H2.
The sound of the CM4s is a little bit clearer, as with CA-14 some higher frequencies stand out too much.
Maybe with post processing you could fix that.

[Gutbucket]

Excellent. Its especially valuable to make such a hands on, real world assessment, yourself. 

Turns out, the CM4 with Zoom F3 is a clear winner, compared to CA-14 from Church Audio / Ugly preamp and zoom H2.
The sound of the CM4s is a little bit clearer, as with CA-14 some higher frequencies stand out too much.
Maybe with post processing you could fix that.

Yes post processing can do a lot, often leveling the playing field, sometimes reversing it.  Trying to make both similar, and each as good as possible on their own via EQ, is another good assessment to make if/when one may be doing post processing to the files anyway, due to frequency response having such a strong influence on our hearing perception and preferences.

The only edit I'd suggest to your conclusion above would be to state it as "The sound of the CM4s>Zoom_F3 is a little bit clearer, as with CA-14>CA-UGLY>Zoom_H2 some higher frequencies stand out too much." (my additions in bold).  True, the choice of microphones will typically be the largest contributor to the flavor of sound through the signal chain, yet the other gear, which is different in these two chains, will also have an effect and a variable best not ignored.

[kuba e]

A good help with eq the sources to sound similar is a free plugin Voxengo SPAN. It is a spectrum analyzer. It has a nice feature, you can analyze two channels that overlap in the graphics output. It is then possible to see which frequencies are stronger in the first and second channels. It's a rough estimate, but it might direct you on what to focus on.

Send e.g. the left channel from the first pair and the left channel from the second pair to the plugin. In the plugin, set Mode from "default" to "high-res" and Routing to "dual mono". The channel that is displayed as the main is selected in Group. Then choose Underlay to "left" or "right".

I once used this plugin for a stealth recording with a Chris Church mics. I saw that the left channel was a bit muted around 4kHz. And the right channel was a bit muted around 8kHz. I guess it was because I had microphones pinned to my shoulders. I corrected the channels separately and it sounded better than if I had use the same treble eq for both channels.