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Author Topic: V3 -> Edirol R-09HR  (Read 9208 times)

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Offline mblindsey

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V3 -> Edirol R-09HR
« on: February 02, 2010, 08:32:05 PM »
MTII sold, R-09HR picked up. 

What cables are you using for V3 -> Edirol R-09HR?  Any other advice welcomed.

EDIT:  To be more clear.  Online parts list of "success", chain store bought parts list, or TS.com cable maker you like.

Thanks!

--Michael
« Last Edit: February 02, 2010, 09:27:36 PM by mblindsey »
Mics:  Microtech Gefell m200/M20/nBob Actives>PFA, CA-11
Pre's: USB Pre2, 1x V3, 2x V3 w/optimod, MP2, Church Ugly
Decks: SD MixPre 6 II, R44 Oade Concert Mod, M10
Playback: Grace m9xx->Sen HD 650, Fostex TH-X00, HIFIMAN HEXX
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Offline fmaderjr

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Re: V3 -> Edirol R-09HR
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2010, 04:54:21 AM »
Others may be good as well, but there can't be a cable maker better than Darktrain. Great cables, speedy communication, and shipment as fast as humanly possible (generally no later than next day, unless he has to special order a connection).
AT853's (all caps)/CM-300 Franken Naks (CP-1,2,3)/JBMod Nak 700's (CP-701,702) > Tascam DR-680
Or Sonic Studios DSM-6 > M10

Offline Chris K

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Re: V3 -> Edirol R-09HR
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2010, 10:08:32 AM »
V3 > R-09? Why? From one suburb preamp into an inferior pre-amp. Perhaps if the Edirol had a digi in. XLR. 1/8" stereo mini cable?? Are you serious?

Your sig has R-44...just use that digi in?
My gear: JK Labs AKG DVC > M10
              AKG 460 ck61/ck62/ck63 > DR-70D
             
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Offline mblindsey

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Re: V3 -> Edirol R-09HR
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2010, 10:21:06 AM »
V3 > R-09? Why? From one suburb preamp into an inferior pre-amp. Perhaps if the Edirol had a digi in. XLR. 1/8" stereo mini cable?? Are you serious?

Your sig has R-44...just use that digi in?

100% of the time, I use my R-44 digi-in when I'm hauling around the V3.  I like to have cables in my bag "just in case".  Let's say, knock on wood, I'm at some festival and the Wally World for my R-44 craps out.  "No problem", I'll say, "I'll make do with the V3-> R-09HR that I just happen to have in the bag."  Or maybe, someone wants to patch out of my V3 while I'm at at show...I'll have the cable for that too.

I do wonder if the levels coming out of the V3 will be too hot...

--Michael
Mics:  Microtech Gefell m200/M20/nBob Actives>PFA, CA-11
Pre's: USB Pre2, 1x V3, 2x V3 w/optimod, MP2, Church Ugly
Decks: SD MixPre 6 II, R44 Oade Concert Mod, M10
Playback: Grace m9xx->Sen HD 650, Fostex TH-X00, HIFIMAN HEXX
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Offline Chris K

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Re: V3 -> Edirol R-09HR
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2010, 10:39:17 AM »
if the dvd battery kicks, then wouldn't you just use the R-44 using AA batteries and bypass the V3 all together?

Dual XLR > 3.5MM stereo cables are a waste of money and space in a bag...just my opinion...although its cool that you would want to be prepared for any situation. Good luck.
My gear: JK Labs AKG DVC > M10
              AKG 460 ck61/ck62/ck63 > DR-70D
             
A live concert to me is exciting because of all the electricity that is generated in the crowd and on stage. It's my favorite part of the business, live concerts.
-Elvis Presley

Offline mblindsey

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Re: V3 -> Edirol R-09HR
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2010, 10:50:45 AM »
if the dvd battery kicks, then wouldn't you just use the R-44 using AA batteries and bypass the V3 all together? .

In the fake disaster scenario I made up real quick, honestly, I would probably just run the R-44 off the good Wally Worlds and bypass the V3. 

Another example might be running mics from multiple locations - stage lip w/R-9HR & V3 + R-44 on the SBD & ambient mics.  Who knows?  I just like options.

Thanks for the input.

--Michael

Mics:  Microtech Gefell m200/M20/nBob Actives>PFA, CA-11
Pre's: USB Pre2, 1x V3, 2x V3 w/optimod, MP2, Church Ugly
Decks: SD MixPre 6 II, R44 Oade Concert Mod, M10
Playback: Grace m9xx->Sen HD 650, Fostex TH-X00, HIFIMAN HEXX
Mixing: RME Fireface UFX->Reaper/Izotope->Yamaha HS8

Offline rastasean

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Re: V3 -> Edirol R-09HR
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2010, 11:18:09 AM »
I would have to agree with fmaderjr. talk to darktrain. He's great to deal with and the cables have not let me down.
Advice is a form of nostalgia, dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it’s worth.

Offline Chris K

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Re: V3 -> Edirol R-09HR
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2010, 11:36:11 AM »
make sure there is an attenuator built into the cable
My gear: JK Labs AKG DVC > M10
              AKG 460 ck61/ck62/ck63 > DR-70D
             
A live concert to me is exciting because of all the electricity that is generated in the crowd and on stage. It's my favorite part of the business, live concerts.
-Elvis Presley

Offline mblindsey

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Re: V3 -> Edirol R-09HR
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2010, 11:40:31 AM »
make sure there is an attenuator built into the cable

That was another question in my mind.  I was thinking this might be a necessity....
Mics:  Microtech Gefell m200/M20/nBob Actives>PFA, CA-11
Pre's: USB Pre2, 1x V3, 2x V3 w/optimod, MP2, Church Ugly
Decks: SD MixPre 6 II, R44 Oade Concert Mod, M10
Playback: Grace m9xx->Sen HD 650, Fostex TH-X00, HIFIMAN HEXX
Mixing: RME Fireface UFX->Reaper/Izotope->Yamaha HS8

Offline SmokinJoe

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Re: V3 -> Edirol R-09HR
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2010, 01:08:38 PM »
I've done this a few times.  I have a V3, an R09, and a buddy has an R09HR.  What I used for a cable was an XLR > 1/8" cable I bought from sound pros, with no attenuator.

The V3's output is hot, so you end up turning the gain way down on the R09.  On my older R09, down to like a 4 on the 0-30 scale.  Another time we did it into my buddy's R09HR... I can't remember what the scale is on R09HR, but suffice it to say we were "most of the way down".  At that point, for whatever reason, you get a result that is less than ideal.  It doesn't contain obvious distortion, it's just not particularly sweet.  In all of these cases, I was running the V3 "the way it is supposed to be run", i.e. I had the V3 running hot into some digital bitbucket, and I was setting the gain on the V3 to make the bitbucket happy, and the R09 was "the poor patchrat who gets what he gets".

I think you would be more successful if you do either of two things:
- set the R09HR line in gain to "midrange" and run the V3 "cold" as required to satisfy the R09HR.
- Use an attenuator, 20db, or maybe even 25.

I've been quite successful lately running my V3 > Korg Mr-1, where I made some 20db attenuator cables.  At that rate, I can run hot into my bitbucket, and into the Korg simultaneously.  I've not gotten around to doing the same with the R09, but I expect it will work fine.

I actually run into 2 recorders a lot... after the show my gear bag with the R4 goes in the trunk, and the R09/iRiver/MR1 is handy to listen to the show in the car on the ride home.
Mics: Schoeps MK4 & CMC5's / Gefell M200's & M210's / ADK-TL / DPA4061's
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: V3 -> Edirol R-09HR
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2010, 06:35:23 PM »
..set the R09HR line in gain to "midrange" and run the V3 "cold" as required to satisfy the R09HR..

I used to do this frequently. V3(just a few bars on the level meters  registering)>R09(gain=13).  Simple, worked fine and sounded great.

As Smokin' mentioned, if using the V3's digital out simultaneously you will need to attenuate to avoid overloading the R09, if not you can just turn down the V3 gain.

Note that pin 3 should be lifted, not shorted.  Most available commercial cables are shorted. Details are in the manual.  Here is a screen shot-
« Last Edit: February 03, 2010, 06:36:54 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline mblindsey

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Re: V3 -> Edirol R-09HR
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2010, 12:39:09 AM »

Thanks for everyone's input.  I really appreciate it. 

I have some cables on the way (DT), but I'm still lacking that pair of attenuators.  I have an ISO in the YS for what I think I need, but I know some people DYI these, too.  Any advice  for attenuators in this setup?

Thanks,
Michael
Mics:  Microtech Gefell m200/M20/nBob Actives>PFA, CA-11
Pre's: USB Pre2, 1x V3, 2x V3 w/optimod, MP2, Church Ugly
Decks: SD MixPre 6 II, R44 Oade Concert Mod, M10
Playback: Grace m9xx->Sen HD 650, Fostex TH-X00, HIFIMAN HEXX
Mixing: RME Fireface UFX->Reaper/Izotope->Yamaha HS8

Offline goodcooker

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Re: V3 -> Edirol R-09HR
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2010, 07:31:02 AM »

Thanks for everyone's input.  I really appreciate it. 

I have some cables on the way (DT), but I'm still lacking that pair of attenuators.  I have an ISO in the YS for what I think I need, but I know some people DYI these, too.  Any advice  for attenuators in this setup?

Thanks,
Michael

Michael,
I have a pair of XLR interconnects with attenuators built into them that you can use. I think Tyler (salmonite) has them right now. Shoot him a PM and see if he'll drop them in an envelope for you. Or ...he's in NE, maybe he'll be coming down to KC for a show sometime soon.

Line Audio CM3/OM1 || MBHO KA500 hyper>PFA|| ADK A51 type IV || AKG C522XY
Oade Warm Mod and Presence+ Mod UA5s || Aerco MP2(needs help) || Neve Portico 5012 || Apogee MMP
SD Mixpre6 || Oade Concert Mod DR100mkii

pocket sized - CA11 cards > SP SB10 > Sony PCM A10

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/goodcooker

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Offline dactylus

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Re: V3 -> Edirol R-09HR
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2010, 08:04:15 AM »

Thanks for everyone's input.  I really appreciate it. 

I have some cables on the way (DT), but I'm still lacking that pair of attenuators.  I have an ISO in the YS for what I think I need, but I know some people DYI these, too.  Any advice  for attenuators in this setup?

Thanks,
Michael

I'd also be interested in a "tried and true" pair of attenuators for this setup...

hot licks > microphones > recorder



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Offline mblindsey

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Re: V3 -> Edirol R-09HR
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2010, 09:24:24 AM »

Michael,
I have a pair of XLR interconnects with attenuators built into them that you can use. I think Tyler (salmonite) has them right now. Shoot him a PM and see if he'll drop them in an envelope for you. Or ...he's in NE, maybe he'll be coming down to KC for a show sometime soon.

Thanks. Based on an email exchange with Jon at Naiant, that setup is probably the best answer.  He recommends, "The easiest thing to do is to build the attenuator into the stereo cable.  For -24dB you'd need a 2k2 series and 150 shunt resistor".

I, honestly, don't know how to do that.  So, I've got some more searching to do.  Do the interconnects that you loaned out have this, and if so, are these extra parts and their connections something that Tyler could easily take a picture of?

In other news, I came across a site that seems to have all the answers.  But, it is out of my area of expertise, so I haven't been able to digest it all:  http://www.uneeda-audio.com/pads/

--Michael
Mics:  Microtech Gefell m200/M20/nBob Actives>PFA, CA-11
Pre's: USB Pre2, 1x V3, 2x V3 w/optimod, MP2, Church Ugly
Decks: SD MixPre 6 II, R44 Oade Concert Mod, M10
Playback: Grace m9xx->Sen HD 650, Fostex TH-X00, HIFIMAN HEXX
Mixing: RME Fireface UFX->Reaper/Izotope->Yamaha HS8

Offline goodcooker

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Re: V3 -> Edirol R-09HR
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2010, 11:35:44 AM »
here's link to the thread where I pinched the idea
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=96074.0
Looks like the pics are gone but the values for the resistors are still there. The schemo came from the same site you mention.

I built those cables for running my V3 in front of my R4 analog in before I got it modded. What I was trying to achieve was to match up the V3 meters with the meters on the R4 ( I hate the meters on the R4) so I had to knock off the extra +23 from the balanced outputs.

IIRC I used 2k2 and 150 just like Jon suggested and got around 23dB of attenuation. I used cheap resistors but I matched them up as best I could.

Building them into the connector was not difficult. I made it on the first try....I sodered them onto the wires first and figured out how to get them situated in the housing so that nothing could short out on the housing before soldering them into the connector pins.

I remember that one of my audio geek buddies, when I was showing off my handiwork, commented that jumping the pin to ground with the shunt resistor was faulty circuit design but we were drinking and all of his jargon was way over my head. I THINK I was using the U-pad diagram from the uneeda-audio link but it's been a couple of years....

I'm out of the cable making biz for a while and have let my stock  dwindle down to what I need to support past customers so I can't really offer to build any right now.....but I'm really surprised that Darktrain, Ed or Naiant hasn't added something like this to their product line. Building battery boxes and attenuators and such is not really all that hard. I'm surprised more people don't do it at home.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2010, 11:37:22 AM by goodcooker »
Line Audio CM3/OM1 || MBHO KA500 hyper>PFA|| ADK A51 type IV || AKG C522XY
Oade Warm Mod and Presence+ Mod UA5s || Aerco MP2(needs help) || Neve Portico 5012 || Apogee MMP
SD Mixpre6 || Oade Concert Mod DR100mkii

pocket sized - CA11 cards > SP SB10 > Sony PCM A10

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/goodcooker

"Are you the Zman?" - fan at Panic 10-08-10 Kansas City
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Offline mblindsey

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Re: V3 -> Edirol R-09HR
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2010, 01:11:51 PM »
Building battery boxes and attenuators and such is not really all that hard. I'm surprised more people don't do it at home.

Agreed. 

I see a lot of related posts here on ts.com and the Internet.  My lack of knowledge in what are very simple electronics makes deciphering them hard, but it will all "click" eventually. Other than the site I referenced, I haven't really found pictures of "resistor1 is soldered to PIN1", etc.  Lots of simple schematics out there, though.  I just can't translate them to the physical world.  In the end, I'll document what I did for the next poor new kid.

--Michael   
Mics:  Microtech Gefell m200/M20/nBob Actives>PFA, CA-11
Pre's: USB Pre2, 1x V3, 2x V3 w/optimod, MP2, Church Ugly
Decks: SD MixPre 6 II, R44 Oade Concert Mod, M10
Playback: Grace m9xx->Sen HD 650, Fostex TH-X00, HIFIMAN HEXX
Mixing: RME Fireface UFX->Reaper/Izotope->Yamaha HS8

Offline deadheaded

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Re: V3 -> Edirol R-09HR
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2010, 01:38:11 PM »
just doesn't make sense to me to amplify the signal with a preamp, then attenuate the signal with a cable. 
i think you should amplify the signal 15 db less.
i don't think that, when the v-3 is in preamp only mode, the signal needs to be zero on the meters.
i could be wrong though.   
If it's worth getting off the couch, it's worth taping!

Offline mblindsey

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Re: V3 -> Edirol R-09HR
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2010, 01:45:08 PM »
just doesn't make sense to me to amplify the signal with a preamp, then attenuate the signal with a cable. 
i think you should amplify the signal 15 db less.
i don't think that, when the v-3 is in preamp only mode, the signal needs to be zero on the meters.
i could be wrong though.

I'll agree with you, with one exception.  If run the digi out on the V3 to my R-44, I'll set the levels appropriately for that path.  At that point, the analog signal sent to the backup R-09HR would be too hot (so, I've read).  Actually, I have experience doing almost this exact thing once, but an iRiver was catching the analog feed...the V3 proved to be too hot for it.

This site:  'http://ca.geocities.com/dkleined@rogers.com/audio' is referenced a lot on the web in relation to this topic.  But, it no longer exists and the wayback machine didn't archive it.  By chance did anyone here?

Thanks,
Michael

Mics:  Microtech Gefell m200/M20/nBob Actives>PFA, CA-11
Pre's: USB Pre2, 1x V3, 2x V3 w/optimod, MP2, Church Ugly
Decks: SD MixPre 6 II, R44 Oade Concert Mod, M10
Playback: Grace m9xx->Sen HD 650, Fostex TH-X00, HIFIMAN HEXX
Mixing: RME Fireface UFX->Reaper/Izotope->Yamaha HS8

Offline deadheaded

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Re: V3 -> Edirol R-09HR
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2010, 01:51:55 PM »
i guess i didn't notice the digi > r-44 part.
if the the r-09hr is a back up recorder, what about taking the unbalanced out from the r-44?
If it's worth getting off the couch, it's worth taping!

Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: V3 -> Edirol R-09HR
« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2010, 03:01:35 PM »
Grandpas who only hang out back in the section might not believe it, but there are situations where the v3 at minimum gain is just too hot for the r09 :P

Much more often, there are situations where the psp2 is too hot for the r09..  The same will apply to any recorder that can't take a pro level signal (like the M10).

There is also the question of whether some pre-amps sound better when run at higher output levels..  And also the question of how the pads impact the sound, even when appropriately impedance matched and built with good resistors.

Offline mblindsey

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Re: V3 -> Edirol R-09HR
« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2010, 06:20:06 PM »
i guess i didn't notice the digi > r-44 part.
if the the r-09hr is a back up recorder, what about taking the unbalanced out from the r-44?

I thought about that, too, but I think there would be too much digi conversion in there: A/D (v3)->D/A(R-44)->A/D(R-09).  Extra conversions aside, I wonder how hot the line out of the R-44 is in comparison to the V3...


EDIT to send future readers here:  http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=132686.0
« Last Edit: February 25, 2010, 09:42:37 PM by mblindsey »
Mics:  Microtech Gefell m200/M20/nBob Actives>PFA, CA-11
Pre's: USB Pre2, 1x V3, 2x V3 w/optimod, MP2, Church Ugly
Decks: SD MixPre 6 II, R44 Oade Concert Mod, M10
Playback: Grace m9xx->Sen HD 650, Fostex TH-X00, HIFIMAN HEXX
Mixing: RME Fireface UFX->Reaper/Izotope->Yamaha HS8

 

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