Topic: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 7)

[beatkilla]

You need mics that are very sensitive and im not sure those are the right choice.

Also where are you recording ?it sounds like a fan or air conditioner in the background as those will be picked up regardless of mics.

[Dave_Scream]

You need mics that are very sensitive and im not sure those are the right choice.

Also where are you recording ?it sounds like a fan or air conditioner in the background as those will be picked up regardless of mics.

there is no air conditioner it fully closed room as much silent as I can make it.

I selected Soundprofessionals MS-TFB-2  because they promised very good sensitivity.
In this table  http://www.soundsurvey.org.uk/index.php/survey/budget_mics/  they have the best sensitivity and noise level values. But so bad in real. why
----
CAN some who please record in the quiet room  with Sony M-10  and rec gain 3 and mic sensitivity high  some short example? So I can compare hiss sound. Maybe mine Sony M-10 is too noisy?

[beatkilla]

Sorry i can't be of more help with your question but perhaps try again late at night in side of a car as i've found that to be very quiet for interviews and such.

[Dave_Scream]

Sorry i can't be of more help with your question but perhaps try again late at night in side of a car as i've found that to be very quiet for interviews and such.

I think ambience is not the reason. Because when I totally close microphones with my hands - hiss sound do not change volume and anythink.

[dallman]

You need mics that are very sensitive and im not sure those are the right choice.

Also where are you recording ?it sounds like a fan or air conditioner in the background as those will be picked up regardless of mics.

there is no air conditioner it fully closed room as much silent as I can make it.

I selected Soundprofessionals MS-TFB-2  because they promised very good sensitivity.
In this table  http://www.soundsurvey.org.uk/index.php/survey/budget_mics/  they have the best sensitivity and noise level values. But so bad in real. why
----
CAN some who please record in the quiet room  with Sony M-10  and rec gain 3 and mic sensitivity high  some short example? So I can compare hiss sound. Maybe mine Sony M-10 is too noisy?

Have you tried any other combination? How about mic sensitivity on low and more gain from the M-10, say 5? Also are you recording 24 bit? I'd be curious how those changes sound when you record in the same situation. And yes a battery box or pre-amp line in should yield better sound, but first I'd try fiddling with what I have. Good luck!

[Dave_Scream]

Have you tried any other combination? How about mic sensitivity on low and more gain from the M-10, say 5? Also are you recording 24 bit? I'd be curious how those changes sound when you record in the same situation. And yes a battery box or pre-amp line in should yield better sound, but first I'd try fiddling with what I have. Good luck!

Yes I tried to make low sensitivity and make gain higher - the same result.

Another problem is when I connect Sony PCM M-10 to my soundcard line-in,  with internal microphones all good, but when I connect external microphones I hear BUZZ.
here is example: https://soundcloud.com/dave_scream/buzz
So I cant use sony M-10 as preamp for external microphones. Again why?

[dallman]

Have you tried any other combination? How about mic sensitivity on low and more gain from the M-10, say 5? Also are you recording 24 bit? I'd be curious how those changes sound when you record in the same situation. And yes a battery box or pre-amp line in should yield better sound, but first I'd try fiddling with what I have. Good luck!

Yes I tried to make low sensitivity and make gain higher - the same result.

Another problem is when I connect Sony PCM M-10 to my soundcard line-in,  with internal microphones all good, but when I connect external microphones I hear BUZZ.
here is example: https://soundcloud.com/dave_scream/buzz
So I cant use sony M-10 as preamp for external microphones. Again why?

Are you using plug in power for the external mics? The mics may require more power than the deck can supply. Do you have any access to an external battery box or pre amp?

[rastasean]

Isn't what you're hearing the self noise of the mics? I'd suggest trying a preamp with the mics.

[earmonger]

If it is self-noise, a preamp will just amplify the noise.  Buying a preamp to find that out doesn't seem like the most economical solution.

Dave, I would strongly suggest that you get in touch with Sound Professionals directly. They are very responsive and helpful via email. techsupport@soundprofessionals.com is probably the place to start, and then customerservice@soundprofessionals.

Whether your mics are defective and need to be replaced, or there is a trick to using them, or they are not the right mics for your purposes, SoundPros is likely to give you an honest answer.

Meanwhile, listening to your sound clip, the steady hiss is all too apparent.

But a few other things: the TFB-2 are clearly more sensitive than the internal mics. Your voice is louder. The  response to various frequencies is also different. It's possible that the internal PCM-M10 mics are more responsive around the range of human speaking and less so elsewhere in the spectrum--which would make the recorder useful for interviews. I don't know if anyone has run a frequency-response test of the mics in the PCM-M10. On the other hand Sound Pros claim they are striving to be flat, picking up all frequencies equally, so you are picking up more sounds at frequencies different from your voice.

Some of the problem does seem to be ambience. Via TFB-2 I can hear what sounds like your clothes rustling--which tells you how sensitive the TFB-2 is--and also something more or less rhythmic, which sounds like it's coming from outside your recording site.

All mics, even super-expensive ones, will have some self-noise.  And testing with a quiet signal, like your voice, is going to make the noise more prominent. Is quiet speech or ambience what you intend to record with the mics? What you eventually have to decide is whether the mic self-noise is going to interfere with their practical use. A lot of us here record amplified concerts, which are so loud that a little self-noise is rarely a problem.   

If you are trying to record super quiet ambient sounds, then you might want to take a look at naturesound.org.

http://naturesound.org/?p=116

[Dave_Scream]

I donot have battery box and preamp. Battery box does not help for quiet recordings? Good preamp maybe help me to down the noise level but it is ~180$ and I don't know how much better it will be, how much dB the noise will loose.
____
UPD.
Uploaded some explanation video to youtube

[earmonger]

I looked at the video. With your audio and video documentation, I hope you have also emailed Sound Professionals already.

Adding a battery box does affect the response of the mics--more power gives them a wider dynamic range, able to handle louder volume.  I don't know what it would do regarding self-noise--maybe some expert here does.

A preamp would amplify everything coming through the mic, including hiss, and I don't think that's worthwhile. A good external preamp would cut down on noise coming from the PCM-M10 built-in preamp, but the built-in preamp is pretty good to start with.  At this point, you'd just be adding another variable.

But I do think sensitivity is part of the situation. You're using the same gain on mics with different sensitivities--and the TFB-2 make everything louder, not just the hiss. So equal gain is not a useful measurement. All it's demonstrating is that the TFB-2 puts out a stronger signal than the internal mics. For a real test you'd need to see what the noise level is when you match the output level.

If you have a recording of a steady tone that you can play through speakers, and you can find the gain level for each set of mics that registers the same volume on SoundForge, then (using your quieter sources) you can compare recordings made with the appropriate gain for each mic.

Or if you really want to get fancy, this page (scroll down) has some professional material to measure self-noise.

http://www.listeninc.com/us/support/sequences.html

Also, putting your hands around the mics isn't really shielding them from the outside world. You know how people experience hearing the sea when they put a big seashell next to their ears? You may be amplifying ambient noise by enclosing the mics. 

I would be curious what you get when you raise the gain on the PCM-M10 mics to match the output of the TFB-2.   But my curiosity won't be half as useful to you as getting in touch with Sound Professionals.

[soundpro]

You wrote:

"But I do think sensitivity is part of the situation. You're using the same gain on mics with different sensitivities--and the TFB-2 make everything louder, not just the hiss. So equal gain is not a useful measurement. All it's demonstrating is that the TFB-2 puts out a stronger signal than the internal mics. For a real test you'd need to see what the noise level is when you match the output level. "

Exactly. This was essentially my response. Once the levels are matched, the noise level of the MS-TFB-2 will be below the internal mics.

Chris Carfagno
The Sound Professionals

[Phil Zone]

just so you guys know this morning at 5 i put my m10 in my bag, and some how turned it on by accident. i took it out at 630pm and noticed it. i used it for a whole show, after using it to record a 5 hr show last week, this is with the backlight on always. thats what i call impressive! and the meter is at 3/4 switching between 4/4 and 3/4.

pretty darn good

[F.O.Bean]

I LOVE my m10s

[dbindc]

Just got a new Samsung 32 GB micro SDHC class 10 card and can't get it to format in my M10.  The task bar get's about half to three quarters thru, then  "process error" comes on the screen.  Manual says to remove and replace the batteries at this message. I've done it a dozen times and tried to format with no luck.  The card reads fine on my macbook pro and I have reformatted it to FAT32 on the computer but it didn't help.

Any ideas?  Is there a known problem with this memory card?