Topic: Zoom F8

[voltronic]

I'm curious about the accuracy of the metering including metering of individual channels in comparison to the 680, 70d and any of the SD7xx series.  Has Zoom given us metering close to the SD7xx series on the F8?

I think the comment on the 70d is that it doesn't have a numeric peak level display and that the sensitivity of the 70d knobs are less than ideal for this task.

Actually the 70D only has a numeric peak level display, but that is only for the channel which is currently the highest peak which makes it only partially useful.  You're correct on the sensitivity of the knobs being less than ideal, but now that it's established that the gain pops into 2dB steps, it's not as big a problem as we may have initially thought.

I'm fine with my 70D right now, in spite of the frustratingly poor metering.  Even the M10 metering is massively better.  If the F8 really performs well in this regard, I might be even more tempted to go after one.  I'm going to let all of you guys take the plunge first though.

[2manyrocks]

Yes, the M10 meter is much better than the 70d, IMO, because it's more visible, longer scale. 

Forgot to mention I'd like to know if you can control the F8 remotely as in set it on a stage with your mics and then control it from the audience via bluetooth? The reason being I'd like to be able to record without having to run cables that some tool will trip over.  How well does the metering work that way?  What's the range?  Does it disconnect? 

[stevetoney]

Yes, the M10 meter is much better than the 70d, IMO, because it's more visible, longer scale. 

Forgot to mention I'd like to know if you can control the F8 remotely as in set it on a stage with your mics and then control it from the audience via bluetooth? The reason being I'd like to be able to record without having to run cables that some tool will trip over.  How well does the metering work that way?  What's the range?  Does it disconnect?

My favorite feature on the Sony recorders is the green -12db and red 0db lights, which lets me monitor levels from anywhere in the room if I can see it.  Obviously, that's what I hope to accomplish with the bluetooth function of this bugger.  The range of the bluetooth is a good suggestion...any idea if the bluetooth signal would be less reliable or have shorter range if there are lots of bodies in the venue physically situated between the recorder and the bluetooth device?

[2manyrocks]

The red light on the Sony has saved recordings for me more than once, especially when I set levels and then the volume creeps up.  It's a good example of well executed engineering.

I have no experience with bluetooth which is different than wifi. http://www.diffen.com/difference/Bluetooth_vs_Wifi

My experience with wifi  is the more traffic on the bandwidth, the more likely trouble.  Metal or other obstacles between you and the device can interfere with range.  My experience with the tascam 22wl is it works fine if I am right on top of the recorder, and the nice big user screen on my tablet beats the stew out of the screen on the 22wl.  I'm guessing at the distance where I start having trouble, but at about 40 feet (?) away, it becomes laggy and unresponsive.  Roughly speaking, I can put it on stage and control it fine from the first few rows of seats.  Get too far away, and I lose  control, but it keeps recording on whatever setting it was on before connection was lost.   

So I'd be looking at range, how easily you can make a careful change to level settings without overrunning the setting you really want (can be harder than you'd think), whether there's lag or delay in making changes, and what happens when you lose connection.  How hard is it to regain connection?  Do you immediately pick up with control when connection is reestablished? 

[stevetoney]

So I'd be looking at range, how easily you can make a careful change to level settings without overrunning the setting you really want (can be harder than you'd think), whether there's lag or delay in making changes, and what happens when you lose connection.  How hard is it to regain connection?  Do you immediately pick up with control when connection is reestablished?

I'd already thought of this.  I already knew (from my hearing aids which are bluetooth controlled...really cool) that there is a slight lag between a bluetooth device and when the device reacts.  It's not much, only 1/3 to 1/2 second or so, but I wondered if it might be enough to mess with you when tweeking levels.  Another concern about the mobile app going in is I'm concerned with whether it's easy to erroneously change something if you accidentally leave the app active  and put it in your pocket.  For example, reviewing the app manual, I don't see any buttons or controls where you can lock the app...so does that mean if I put it in my pocket and somehow REC gets depressed I'll accidentally stop the recording?  Or if a fader slider gets accidently touched will my levels suddenly go off?  I suppose you can lock any app by minimizing it on your phone, but what if you forget before putting your phone back in your pocket?

[df]

I'm skeptical of the Zoom F8.  Sure it looks cool and a welcome option, but it's still manufactured by a company that fills the market area catering to video hobbyists who know nothing about audio outside of the Zoom H series.  I don't think it's a threat to SD gear.  It might bring down the after market price of SD gear and other high end gear, but maybe just temporarily.  Did Zoom really build a recorder that is THAT good at THAT price?  I doubt it.  It's probably decent though, also I have never used the H6, F8, etc.

[dallman]

That review was fantastic and ended up costing me as I had to have one... 
I would like to know everything as in your last review which was incredibly thorough, but what comes right to mind is the following:
Ease of setup and use in the field
Quirks
How it sounds without external preamps
Power consumpltion
What sets it apart from others like DR680 SD etc aside from price
What you liked best
What you disliked

Thanks for the feedback Cliff.  How are the shemps treating you?

I am having great fun with them, and have worked them out extensively the past 2 weeks  I find them incredibly detailed, more detailed than my KM185's but I find the Neumanns a bit warmer. I think each will shine in certain situations.

[Ozpeter]

any idea if the bluetooth signal would be less reliable or have shorter range if there are lots of bodies in the venue physically situated between the recorder and the bluetooth device?

I have a high power BT audio transmitter which enables me to wander anywhere in the (large) house with a BT audio receiver clipped to my shirtfront and headphones on and get a perfect signal.  However, if I go out the front door listening to music, there comes a point where the signal starts to break up, as you'd expect.  But when I turn round to come back in, the signal instantly comes back solid.  In other words, when the receiver is shielded by my body, reception suffers at the edge of range.  So yes, I'd expect degradation from an audience between a BT controller and a controlled device.

As for accidental operation of on-screen controls on a phone - well, if it's anything like the Tascam phone controlled devices, you simply turn off the phone screen before you put it in your pocket.  The recorder continues to function normally until you turn the phone back on in due course to make any required changes.  The chief hazard in a taping situation is that just when you want to set the device running, the link from the phone becomes unresponsive for whatever reason.  So prudence dictates that you set the recorder going well in advance, and don't press pause between items.

[stevetoney]

I got the F8 today and I've been playing with it for around the last four hours.  I had a late change of plans and I'm leaving tomorrow morning for a festival, so it's going to get a workout this weekend. 

This thing has an amazing array of features and the review I'm thinking about doing is going to take quite some time, but it will be worth it.  I might start a thread and just add to it over the course of time because if I just wait until I review everything and issue the review all at once, it might take awhile before I get a chance to test everything out.

OK, my first impressions are that this thing is amazing.  I'm holding my breath about how the preamps sound but it won't be long tomorrow before I get to check them versus my AETA PSP3. 

So many positive impressions right now, with the only 'new' negative (other than the items we've discussed previously) is that so far I haven't been able to find any kind of a hold button or hold feature on it.  So far, I'm not seeing any way to gang any of the level controls.  Even when you link stereo channels, the level controls aren't ganged.  However, I've got a feeling this can be resolved with a firmware update.  I don't have time tonight to explain in detail and I'll probably have to think it through some.  Don't hold me to this yet though.

Construction really seems top notch and solid.  The SD card covers are spring loaded doors, not rubber covers and a spot on as far as how they function.  I've spent at least a couple hours in the menus now and they're very intuitive and easy to navigate.  That said, since the unit is feature rich, it will take some time to learn all of the menu selections. 

The buttons are all on par with the buttons on a 7xx with the same basic feel and feedback...though the buttons are generally smaller. 

The main toggle knob is black knurled metal and with a very solid feel.  The knurling on the knob give you a solid grip.  Turning the knob provides a ratcheted detente 'clicky' feel with clicks being succinct and sharp, without being overly clicky feeling (I'm not sure if that makes sense).  One click equals one spot movement in the menu up or down.  Push in on the toggle knob to select an item from the menu.  Again, the click when pushing (as opposed to rotating) is succinct and provides a definitive click with no mushiness whatsoever.

I've done about an hours worth of messing around with the bluetooth interface and, short of wishing it was wifi compatible, its everything I'd hoped for in terms of control.  Haven't checked range yet, but my earlier concerns about accidental button pushing are mostly a non-issue.  The delay between what you see on the main screen of the F8 and what's seen on the ios device is barely perceptible and won't be an issue.

Sorry I can't write more, but I want to do some more with it tonight so that when I get to the festival tomorrow, I don't mess anything up.  Stay tuned next week because I think the recording I do this weekend will really provide a good indication of what can be expected from the preamps...at least for the live music taping crowd.

[vegeta_ban]

Made a case for it.




edit: haha a little Dragon Ball in the background

[stevetoney]

^ Wow.  Now that's what I call solid DIY work.  Is it regular denim and did you use a regular ole sewing machine with a needle for heavy material?

I haven't decided yet what I'm going to do for a case.  I have an abundance of cases right now, so I'll probably just grab some spare dividers and try and make something work.  I'm handy with a sewing machine though so your design/idea is intriguing to me.

[stevetoney]

A couple more items of note this morning before I finish packing.

I don't have a power cable with a hirose connector yet, but late last night I checked the generic connectors that came with my Tekkeon 3300 batteries and one of those connectors fits the 12V power input on the back of the F8 perfectly.  The connector on the unit is recessed and the adaptaplug connectors are right angle, so at first I didn't think the plugs would fit, but when inserted, the right angle actually fits perfectly snug into the socket while also hugging the back of the unit close enough that when it's sitting in the bottom on the bag there's absolutely no concern with the cable coming out of the bottom of the unit into the bottom of your bag.  I'm not 100% at this point, but I doubt I'm going to need to concern myself about getting a cable with a hirose connector made.  I know not everyone has these generic Tekkeon connectors laying around, but it's a happy coincidence for me.

The compartment for the batteries is nicely designed.  First of all, the door providing access is a metal hinged door held in place with a thumbscrew.  There's a solid feel and design all the way around with the access door...gives the feel that it's designed to last.  Swinging the door open provides access to a plastic battery tray.  The tray hold 8s AA batteries and is a unique and/or proprietary design.  It has a pull tab on the end for easily pulling the tray out.  Each side of the tray has a hinged cover that snap in place so that once the batteries are in place, they'll stay in place.  Nice feature so that if you have a tray in the bottom on your gear bag, batteries won't fall out of the sled.  Each side of the sled has a retained ribbon so that extraction of the batteries is simply a tug on the ribbon.  While the tray looks as sturdy as your typical plastic battery tray, it's plastic.  I can see over time these trays being damaged or getting lost.  Since it's a special design, Zoom needs to make available the purchase of spares.  Besides having backups for replacement, it would also be nice to have spare packs ready to go in case you're in the middle of a show and you need to change AAs quickly.  The bottom line though is that its a nicely designed tray.

[WiFiJeff]

The compartment for the batteries is nicely designed.  First of all, the door providing access is a metal hinged door held in place with a thumbscrew.  There's a solid feel and design all the way around with the access door...gives the feel that it's designed to last.  Swinging the door open provides access to a plastic battery tray.  The tray hold 8s AA batteries and is a unique and/or proprietary design.  It has a pull tab on the end for easily pulling the tray out.  Each side of the tray has a hinged cover that snap in place so that once the batteries are in place, they'll stay in place.  Nice feature so that if you have a tray in the bottom on your gear bag, batteries won't fall out of the sled.  Each side of the sled has a retained ribbon so that extraction of the batteries is simply a tug on the ribbon.  While the tray looks as sturdy as your typical plastic battery tray, it's plastic.  I can see over time these trays being damaged or getting lost.  Since it's a special design, Zoom needs to make available the purchase of spares.  Besides having backups for replacement, it would also be nice to have spare packs ready to go in case you're in the middle of a show and you need to change AAs quickly.  The bottom line though is that its a nicely designed tray.

Sounds like a job for 3D printing, calling SRS Recording Services.

[vegeta_ban]

^ Wow.  Now that's what I call solid DIY work.  Is it regular denim and did you use a regular ole sewing machine with a needle for heavy material?

I haven't decided yet what I'm going to do for a case.  I have an abundance of cases right now, so I'll probably just grab some spare dividers and try and make something work.  I'm handy with a sewing machine though so your design/idea is intriguing to me.

I sewed most of it by hand, a little bit by a sewing machine. I didn't have access to a machine for most of the build. It was a denim that Joann fabric had on sale, a clear vinyl, and some foam padding for protection. I'm gonna add some straps like the portabrace I have uses to secure it in more.

[vegeta_ban]

I can confirm the Tekkeon adapter works too, I put the number of the adapter earlier in the thread.

A couple more items of note this morning before I finish packing.

I don't have a power cable with a hirose connector yet, but late last night I checked the generic connectors that came with my Tekkeon 3300 batteries and one of those connectors fits the 12V power input on the back of the F8 perfectly.  The connector on the unit is recessed and the adaptaplug connectors are right angle, so at first I didn't think the plugs would fit, but when inserted, the right angle actually fits perfectly snug into the socket while also hugging the back of the unit close enough that when it's sitting in the bottom on the bag there's absolutely no concern with the cable coming out of the bottom of the unit into the bottom of your bag.  I'm not 100% at this point, but I doubt I'm going to need to concern myself about getting a cable with a hirose connector made.  I know not everyone has these generic Tekkeon connectors laying around, but it's a happy coincidence for me.

The compartment for the batteries is nicely designed.  First of all, the door providing access is a metal hinged door held in place with a thumbscrew.  There's a solid feel and design all the way around with the access door...gives the feel that it's designed to last.  Swinging the door open provides access to a plastic battery tray.  The tray hold 8s AA batteries and is a unique and/or proprietary design.  It has a pull tab on the end for easily pulling the tray out.  Each side of the tray has a hinged cover that snap in place so that once the batteries are in place, they'll stay in place.  Nice feature so that if you have a tray in the bottom on your gear bag, batteries won't fall out of the sled.  Each side of the sled has a retained ribbon so that extraction of the batteries is simply a tug on the ribbon.  While the tray looks as sturdy as your typical plastic battery tray, it's plastic.  I can see over time these trays being damaged or getting lost.  Since it's a special design, Zoom needs to make available the purchase of spares.  Besides having backups for replacement, it would also be nice to have spare packs ready to go in case you're in the middle of a show and you need to change AAs quickly.  The bottom line though is that its a nicely designed tray.