Topic: Upgraded AC power cords?

[Todd R]

Spent a bit of time this weekend thinking about upgrading the non-component side of my playback systems.  Started thinking about new interconnects and speaker cable, and got to wondering about new AC cords.

Does anyone have an opinion on upgrading your AC power cords and/or your AC recepticle and whether that is an important part of a quality playback system.  I'm not ready at this point to be dropping big bucks on power conditioners and whatnot, just wondering about the cord and maybe recepticle at this point.

I'll probably go the DIY route using Belden 19364 cable and hospital grade plugs.  AKA, the Bob Crump audioasylum/cable asylum method ( http://www.audiotweaks.com/diy/bobcrump_pc/page01.htm )

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

Do it.  I was skeptical.  I was not ready for the instant unsubtle improvement.  

I used the VenHaus recipe.  I got lower bass and quieter background.  I was told to expect them to get better as they burned in, but I think 90% of the improvement was there when I installed them.

Dedicated line is next.

[BCostigan]

I agree with Moke....a dedicated circuit is best if you can.  #10 Romex is overkill IMHO....a 20amp circuit on #12 romex will suffice.  The #10 is a good idea in that it will more easily carry the load....just don't fuse it at 30 amps...use a 20amp.

A dedicated circuit is a great idea because:

-Voltage will be the best possible as it will not be shared with other recepticles.
-Motor noise will be kept to a minimum.

I would use what they call a "hospital grade" receptical.  It's one of the highest quality recepticals you can buy.  I would only put in one receptical and use that to supply some sort or conditioner/regulator.  

As for the cord upgrade....I would imagine anything other than the stock cords is an improvement.  

Maybe I should follow my own suggestions..................

[Todd R]

Ok, I guess since it keeps getting mentioned, I'll bite:  Any suggestions on lower end power conditioners?  I don't think I'm ready to drop a lot on an expensive conditioner.  Also, are the lower end ones worth it?  I'm afraid that a cheap design/implementation might be worse than no conditioner at all.

[BCostigan]

I've heard some good things about Furman conditioners.


http://www.furmansound.com/pro/pwr_cond_seq/index.htm

[jpschust]

i use the furman and its not bad.  id like to upgrade eventually but im happy with using that money for a sub for now

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

I have a Blue Circle Music Ring 1200.  It converts 120V to out of phase +/-60V.  it's balanced power, like using balanced interconnects, relying on common mode rejection to eliminate power line noise.  It works great.  I didn't realize how mush line noise there is until I installed it.   You can occasionally find them used on Audiogon but not very often.  I posted a want ad and eventually a guy contacted me so I saved about $300.

If you can DIY, there is a Jon Risch design power filter that gets very good reviews and is going to be cheaper than anything you can buy at that level of perfomance.  You can find the link on audioasylum with a simple search.  

A dedicated line is still the best bang for the buck.  But if you put one in, you better be sure that's where you want your system to be for a while.  I know some people recommend running two lines to keep the digital and analog components on different runs or if you have a big amp, to put the amp on an isolated run so it has full access to the 20A.  

[Lee]

I got a great deal on a Furman PL-PLUS last week at a ham radio show.  I don't really need it, but it was too good a deal to pass up- the guy really didn't know what he had on his hands.

That said, it's just sitting in my closet until I find something to use it for (I use an Adcom power conditioner in my playback system already)- I'll loan it to you for a while if you want to try it out.

[BCostigan]

After looking at "high end" type power cords I think I'm gonna go into the cord making business.   For about $60 in parts you can easily make a nice cable that they are getting hundreds for assembled.

[Todd R]

Lee, thanks for the very kind offer!  +T   Give me a couple days and I'll let you know.  I guess I spent too much time on audiogon--I was thinking I'd need to spend a minimum of a few hundred to get a power conditioner.  After hearing about the furmans, I've been looking into them.  I may just go ahead and try to get one.  For the price, it might be easier to get one outright rather than to spend the money to mail it back and forth for the test drive.

[Lee]

For the record, the PL-PLUS I have is for sale if anyone's interested

[BCostigan]

I am Lee.....PMed ya.

[BC]

Spent a bit of time this weekend thinking about upgrading the non-component side of my playback systems.  Started thinking about new interconnects and speaker cable, and got to wondering about new AC cords.

I know this is not what you are looking for, but personally the 1st thing I would look into once upgrading the non-component side of home playback is room analysis and treatment.  I say once you get the speaker placement and room treated for flat response, then start on the tweaks. Just IMHO.

Take care,
Ben

[scervin]

I think room treatments will have a larger impact than anything.  The foam place someone posted has cheap foam for diffusion.  Owens Corning 703 and 705 are great rigid fiberglass panels for absorbtion.  You might not easily find the OC stuff so search for Linacoustic (may need contractor license to get this) or Certainteed duct board.  These have good absorbtion characteristics.
   Where can you find "hospital grade" outlets??  I've been looking, but can only seem to find reg 20A.  I ran 2 dedicated 20A lines to the rack( 1 for amp and other for power conditioner), 1 for the sub and 1 for powered towers if  ever go that route.  In a year I'll post pics when complete....

[jpschust]

i use www.realtraps.com for my acoustic treatments.  i have one of the kits, not super cheap, but let me tell you, it works amazingly well.  

[BCostigan]

   Where can you find "hospital grade" outlets??  

A local electrical supply should have them...not Home Depot or a hardware store but a commercial electrical supply.

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

A local electrical supply should have them...not Home Depot or a hardware store but a commercial electrical supply.

or buy them from this guy:  www.venhaus1.com

no affiliation other than happy customer.

[BCostigan]

A local electrical supply should have them...not Home Depot or a hardware store but a commercial electrical supply.

or buy them from this guy:  www.venhaus1.com

no affiliation other than happy customer.

Nice find.....just an FYI that price is about double what I pay at an electrical supply.

[scervin]

I've spoken with Ethan Winter at Real Traps about my son to be complete theater room.  I will say his stuff is expensive.  You can get a 100' roll of linacoustic for $180.  That will make about 50 micro traps.  The GOM fabric is about $13 a yard.  I'm making my own as I've got the time.

  Thanks for the link.  I'll try the electrical supply store.

SC

[jpschust]

scott, relative to other pre made traps i find his stuff to be pretty reasonable.  its VERY VERY well made, IMHO  

[scervin]

You are correct.... however I find it expensive relative to DIY solutions.  I figure $300 to treat my entire room which would include a 13'x8' wall.  He is a good guy and it is too bad he can no longer sell the OC 703 and 705 panels.  This is mainly why I turned to linacoustic as my brother works for HVAC company while home from school and can walk into HVAC distribution centers and grab me just about anything.  Acoustic products being a plus!

[jpschust]

nice!  yah, i don't mind some diy stuff, but honestly I get so busy with all the random stuff I do that when i buy something I just dont even mind spending more to have somoene else make it and waranty it.

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

Nice find.....just an FYI that price is about double what I pay at an electrical supply.

Looks like I'm headed to the electrical supply.  I hadn't called around for prices.  

[scervin]

Here is a link to various acoustic materials used by HT design folks....  good luck finding them though.  Don't call Home Depot or Lowe's, you would have better luck going to HVAC outlets
http://www.bobgolds.com/AbsorptionCoefficients.htm

[Todd R]

I think room treatments will have a larger impact than anything.

Gotta stay within the limits of reality.  My wife is pretty supportive of all my audio madness, but I don't think acoustical treatments will be happening any time soon to our living room.    

[Todd R]

After looking at "high end" type power cords I think I'm gonna go into the cord making business.   For about $60 in parts you can easily make a nice cable that they are getting hundreds for assembled.

Well, I assume you're just joking about going into business on this one, but I've been looking into this for several days now.

After looking around a bit, I'm thinking of putting together some AC cords for myself.  They'll be based on the cable asylum design, using Schurter IEC connectors, Belden 19364 wire, and hospital grade plugs.  I haven't decided yet on whether I'd go for the techflex covering on them.

At any rate, it may depend on volume and exactly what I'd go with (techflex, etc), but it looks like it'll be about $35 or so in parts for a 5' cable.  I'm not thinking of getting fancy with cryogenic stuff and whatnot, but it should be a high quality audiophile-level set-up.

I'm assuming it shouldn't be to hard to whip these things together, so I'm happy to put together some for folks on the board who are interested.  With the parts cost, shipping of parts to me, shipping the finished cable out, and paypal fees and whatever, I'm thinking I can offer these AC cables to folks for $45 shipped for a 5' cable.  I could make longer for a bit more (the belden cable is $2/foot).

I'm not trying to get rich on these, but obviously would like to cover my costs.  Probably just would feel better knowing there are other audiophool idiots on the board who think coughing up $45 for an AC cord is a reasonable use of their income.  

So drop me a pm if you're interested in getting some of these homemade AC cables.  I'm going to try to get an order put out for parts in the next few days and then will get to building the cables.  Probably can be ready in the next couple weeks.

-Todd

[BCostigan]

Well, I assume you're just joking about going into business on this one, but I've been looking into this for several days now.

I was semi-serious.  I too have been looking into making them.  The cable I was gonna make was gonna be about $100...$70 in parts $10 in shipping and $20 for labor.


Have fun making the cables.....FWIW.....the cryoed cable is not much more $$ and from what I have read and know.....it's well worth it.

[jpschust]

i would kind of like to see what else is out there besides the belden- ive heard great things about it, but i know there are better cables out there.

[Todd R]

Well, I assume you're just joking about going into business on this one, but I've been looking into this for several days now.

I was semi-serious.  I too have been looking into making them.  

Sorry about that, Brian.     Next time start you're own damn thread, hijacker.    Guess we've been working on the same premise at the same time--didn't mean to steal your thunder.  +T

[Todd R]

i would kind of like to see what else is out there besides the belden- ive heard great things about it, but i know there are better cables out there.

There's also DH Labs/Silver Sonic Power Plus cord, which you can get for $6 per foot.  I looked into it and decided against it for myself.  It ends up not being just the extra cost of the cable, but also the connectors.  The Schurter IEC is limited to 14 gauge wire, which is what the Belden is; I'm not sure right now about the limits on the plug side.  Since the DH Labs is 12 gauge, that means to use it you'd have to use all different parts, so the overall cost would probably double.

[scervin]

If I'm not mistaken 20A cicuits must be wired with 12ga, so shouldn't your power cord be the same?? I know I run certain air compressors off 20A extension cords...

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

If I'm not mistaken 20A cicuits must be wired with 12ga, so shouldn't your power cord be the same?? I know I run certain air compressors off 20A extension cords...

It depends on the device that you are feeding.  A preamp may draw only 200 watts.  You don't need 12ga wire for that.  That compressor probably draws 1500-2000W.

[scervin]

Then why to we all run 20A dedicated circuits to amps/racks??

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

The dedicated 20A circuit is intended to provide power to alot of devices.  If you look into the wiring of your house, you will find that a 20A breaker will run power to a whole room or even multiple rooms depending on the number of outlets in each room.  The individual normal devices (i.e. not a refrigerator or A/C unit) taking power from that circuit actually draw much less than 20A.  

For example, from my rack:

DAT machine rated max draw is 21W
CR recorder rated max draw is 27W
Multiformat player (energy star) rated max draw is 14W
can't find the rating on my preamp but it takes a .5 amp fuse

So if I power on all this stuff, I am consuming at most 1A.  

A power amp is different. If you have a 240W/ch amplifier, that is a rated maximum of 4Amp if you are driving it to the extreme.  Ususally it draws a lot less continuous current in most applications.  The reason that you want a much larger capacity circuit for the power amp is that it may have instantaneous power requirements that exceed the average.  The 240W/ch amp may dissipate on average 120W, but have instantaneous power requirements of 8A to 10A when there are loud transients in the material.

The primary reason for having a dedicated circuit for audio equipment is to isolate the audio equipment on a leg that is as far away from other devices as possible, because all those other deveces (lights, TVs, ceiling fans, refridgerators, hair dryers) all put noise back onto the AC line where they are tapped.   That A/C line noise gets through the power supply filters and degrades the audio signal.  

The reason to put an amp on it's own circuit is that when the instantaneous current becomes high there is a voltage drop on the circuit and if your source devices are on the same circuit, they have to suffer that voltage drop.  It's not unlike turning on the hair dryer and seeing the bathroom lights dim.  A 1400W hair dryer draws ~13A like a big SS applifier will when it's trying to refill its stores after a large transient on the output.  Also the draw of the source components, however minimal, cuts down on the total capacity available to the amp when it really needs it.

You can run wire rated for 20A in your power cords and it won't hurt anything.  But if your device draws only .3A, then running wire suitable for 20A is overkill.  Especially for source devices that do not have large instantaneous power requirements.  If you have wire suitable for 10x the max draw of any device, you're not going to see any benefit from investing in bigger wire.  You'll get better returns from investing in wire/shielding topology.

[scervin]

I understand all of this, but why is the standard to run dedicated 20A to a projector or component rack.  I know a projector is not drawing the same power as a 200x7 amp!  The number of times an amp will draw that kind of power is very limited.
SC

[BCostigan]

I understand all of this, but why is the standard to run dedicated 20A to a projector or component rack.  I know a projector is not drawing the same power as a 200x7 amp!  The number of times an amp will draw that kind of power is very limited.
SC

As an electrician we usually run a 20A circuit in a situation like this because you never know what may be there in the future! The additional cost to upgrade a 15A circuit to 20A is minimal if you know there is going to be some sort of critical/high end draw.

You wouldn't be too happy if ya ran a 15A circuit and ya had your favorite tune cranked and the breaker opened due to load.


The bottom line is.....is it needed?  99% of the time no.  It's overkill...but then again so aren't most people playback systems who run these dedicated 20A circuits.

[scervin]

Well, like I have said, I ran 5 20A lines in my basement.  Not sure I'd put anything else on the ceiling that needed 20A though  I just wanted to cover myself incase I wanted to run dual subs, hence the need for 2 dedicated lines up front.  A Panamax sub-2 will be put here as well.  The amp will be plugged into its own circuit and the rest of the gear will be on a Panamax line conditioner.  Might plug the amp into it as well.  

[Todd R]

Where can you find "hospital grade" outlets??  I've been looking, but can only seem to find reg 20A.  I ran 2 dedicated 20A lines to the rack( 1 for amp and other for power conditioner), 1 for the sub and 1 for powered towers if  ever go that route.  In a year I'll post pics when complete....

Scott, I don't know if you're still looking, but I just got a 6-piece lot of Pass & Seymour 8300 HI outlets.  These are the 20A heavy-duty, hospital grade outlets (in ivory).  I'm only going to need 3 or maybe 4 of them, so if you're interested I could let you have two of them.  Shipped they'd be $9 apiece.  Let me know.

[scervin]

Already picked some up thanks.

[Nick Culbreth]

any word on how these turned out?